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On October 07 2014 02:07 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 01:16 TheDwf wrote:On October 07 2014 00:56 DinoMight wrote:On October 07 2014 00:51 Lexender wrote:On October 07 2014 00:50 DinoMight wrote:On October 07 2014 00:44 Lexender wrote:
To be honest I like the state of the game as it is right know, when the MULE/Warpgate/Larvae are the things being discussed you know the balance is ok because those are the things that are not going to be changed pretty much never.
Weeellll... hold your horses there. Terran is looking pretty pretty pretty strong at the moment... Perhaps but you can make that case on behalf of Hellbat/WM/Map pool MULEs on the other hand. Well I was just trying to say that discussing MULES doesn't imply the rest of the game isn't broken. Given the current map pool, widow mines, and hellbats, I don't think a Terran can lose a Bo5+ unless his opponent is much better.  sOs 3-0  RealityherO 3-1 SorryherO 3-1 BomberherO 3-0 FlashZest 3-0 YoDaDear 3-1 FanTaSyYongHwa 3-2 SuperNovaYongHwa 4-2 JourneyJim 3-1 SuperNovaeMotion 3-0 KeeN... Innovation is like the perfect Terran imbarometer. His win rates rise and fall in perfect correlation with Terran patches.  As evidenced by this or this? Patch 1.4.3 was such a heaven for Terran... I wasn't only referring to TvP. And a lot of these have clear favorites. Can't you guys take a joke? Come on.. I thought "imbarometer" was pretty clever. Say what you will, but he was great - then they nerfed widow mines and hellbats and he became not so great, then they re-buffed both those things and he won the GSL. Lately T is quite strong and I think it's dishonest to ignore that...
Yeah, maybe because Innovation is a great player who was unfairly hampered by the nerf patch and is now finally playing on an even playing field again? Wow, big deal, Inno and MMA won some tournaments, bomber too. Its not like we had a long list of 10 different protoss 'champions' one after the other after the other to start the year off for 6 entire months? At least these terran champions have been champions throughout such a large amount of different patches and are more than proven to be among the world's best players. Maybe come back when a bunch of random terrans start winning anything.
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On October 07 2014 02:25 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 02:11 Wombat_NI wrote:
Terran IS looking pretty strong ATM mind, especially in TvP (from the games I've watched which don't include every game obviously) Really? We must be watching very different games, I haven't seen a TvP recently where the win looked undeserved (from either side) recently, whereas with TvZ I think Terran might be a little too strong atm. But possibly because of timings / ect that are still being figured out, Z has always taken the longest to adapt to new all-ins / timings.
Buff underused things!! the same way they buffed thors/hellbats.
Zerg drops, better nidus, perhaps a non-shitty neural, I think zerg is fine but there are some stuff that could help while making the game more fun and not game breaking.
I agree tough, zerg is somewhat weak (still fine tho) since all the TvZ buffs, but they are not doing terrible, TvZ is THE match up, the more balanced the better
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On October 07 2014 02:25 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 02:11 Wombat_NI wrote:
Terran IS looking pretty strong ATM mind, especially in TvP (from the games I've watched which don't include every game obviously) Really? We must be watching very different games, I haven't seen a TvP recently where the win looked undeserved (from either side) recently, whereas with TvZ I think Terran might be a little too strong atm. But mostly because of timings / ect that are still being figured out, Z has always taken the longest to adapt to new all-ins / timings.
I always ask myself where this myth comes from? Zerg has been quite fast to adapt to attacks. It rather baffles me for how long Terran players usually play inferior variations of their builds. I mean, Flash still plays hellbats over mines... talking about slow adaption.;-)
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On October 07 2014 01:51 Dingodile wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 20:26 Big J wrote:On October 06 2014 20:15 Dingodile wrote:
Well with my suggestion 1) zerg can scout at terran natural if there are hellbats so zerg does know now not to play greedy as usual and 2) hellbat push comes 1min later (due to transformation servos upgrade time) so zerg has a better conclusion that terran has most likely upgraded the transformation servos).
It's more predictable than what we have now from zerg perspective. Terran is not going to upgrade Trafo Servos. Ever. We had that, it didn't happen. It's clunky, takes too long and costs too much. Also it is not a real problem in terms of power of the hellion-hellbat. If you know on time it is coming you can basically just choose the right techs/units early enough and just win. The game in general has a serious scouting issue that makes it very easy to either deny scouts by killing them before they see something, or just building stuff where it is hard/unlikely to get scouted. But here it becomes a question of philosophy. Do you want information-based play or don't you want it. I dont think we had that. with my suggestion you can produce hellbats without armory, only for the transformation you need armory+transformation servos. Its an huge difference for zerg if you detect hellbats at terran base or close to 3rdHatch (from hellion morph).
Do this and the game is perfectly balanced and needs no more change until LotV.
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On October 07 2014 02:32 johnbongham wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 07 2014 02:07 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 01:16 TheDwf wrote:On October 07 2014 00:56 DinoMight wrote:On October 07 2014 00:51 Lexender wrote:On October 07 2014 00:50 DinoMight wrote:On October 07 2014 00:44 Lexender wrote:
To be honest I like the state of the game as it is right know, when the MULE/Warpgate/Larvae are the things being discussed you know the balance is ok because those are the things that are not going to be changed pretty much never.
Weeellll... hold your horses there. Terran is looking pretty pretty pretty strong at the moment... Perhaps but you can make that case on behalf of Hellbat/WM/Map pool MULEs on the other hand. Well I was just trying to say that discussing MULES doesn't imply the rest of the game isn't broken. Given the current map pool, widow mines, and hellbats, I don't think a Terran can lose a Bo5+ unless his opponent is much better. sOs 3-0 RealityherO 3-1 SorryherO 3-1 BomberherO 3-0 FlashZest 3-0 YoDaDear 3-1 FanTaSyYongHwa 3-2 SuperNovaYongHwa 4-2 JourneyJim 3-1 SuperNovaeMotion 3-0 KeeN... Innovation is like the perfect Terran imbarometer. His win rates rise and fall in perfect correlation with Terran patches. As evidenced by this or this? Patch 1.4.3 was such a heaven for Terran... I wasn't only referring to TvP. And a lot of these have clear favorites. Can't you guys take a joke? Come on.. I thought "imbarometer" was pretty clever. Say what you will, but he was great - then they nerfed widow mines and hellbats and he became not so great, then they re-buffed both those things and he won the GSL. Lately T is quite strong and I think it's dishonest to ignore that... Yeah, maybe because Innovation is a great player who was unfairly hampered by the nerf patch and is now finally playing on an even playing field again? Wow, big deal, Inno and MMA won some tournaments, bomber too. Its not like we had a long list of 10 different protoss 'champions' one after the other after the other to start the year off for 6 entire months? At least these terran champions have been champions throughout such a large amount of different patches and are more than proven to be among the world's best players. Maybe come back when a bunch of random terrans start winning anything.
This argument is really shallow, as it undermines any new talent. It also disregards the fact that most of the Protoss champions had actually proven themselves to be the most dominant players in a higher a more difficult setting, prior to going overseas and winning all those tournaments, which were arguably easier.
On October 07 2014 02:36 Big J wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 07 2014 02:25 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 02:11 Wombat_NI wrote:
Terran IS looking pretty strong ATM mind, especially in TvP (from the games I've watched which don't include every game obviously) Really? We must be watching very different games, I haven't seen a TvP recently where the win looked undeserved (from either side) recently, whereas with TvZ I think Terran might be a little too strong atm. But mostly because of timings / ect that are still being figured out, Z has always taken the longest to adapt to new all-ins / timings. I always ask myself where this myth comes from? Zerg has been quite fast to adapt to attacks. It rather baffles me for how long Terran players usually play inferior variations of their builds. I mean, Flash still plays hellbats over mines... talking about slow adaption.;-)
You might have a point about Terran being slow to adapt, I tried to argue that, but got promptly rejected. The slow zerg myth comes from the time when Zerg played Roach-Hydra-Corrupter against Stalker-Colossus for like one and a half year, and cried imbatoss for most of that time. Turns out, without much change to zerg, they found ways to actually be at least just as good as protoss, if not better, after Stephano started his successful spree, ushering the age of BL Infestor and patchzerg namecalling.
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On October 07 2014 00:44 Lexender wrote:
People give too much credit to the the MULE for what its worth, a 3CC will give you 3 MULES every 100 seconds-ish, with each MULE living for 90 seconds, with each MULE mining about 4 times what a worker does, it means during 90 out of every 100 seconds 3CC gives you the mining time of 12 workers,
Add a cooldown on this skill so that terrans have to drop mules in time or lose the opportunity (like the other races have to do) and your argument will be valid.
The issue is not with dropping one mule every 100 seconds-ish. That gives a boost, but nothing game-shattering. The issue is that the terran can forget to use them (or choose to store them), rely on the normal mining rate, and drop them all at once whenever he needs it. And *this* gives a huge enough mineral boost to compensate for losing a lot of scvs or to keep producing 10 marines at a time after losing everything.
Neither protoss nor zerg have anything *that* forgiving. As protoss, if you need to rebuild probes, you can chronoboost the nexuses, sure, but you have to do it right on time. You can't chronoboost the same building twice at the same moment. As zerg, miss an inject and you'll never recover the time lost. If you need to have your queens in front of your bases to stop hellions or chase reapers, you lose injects and you can't get them back.
As terran, you can choose to store up the energy until such time as you finally decide if you need a scan or if you'd rather have a near-immediate mineral boost. Or get an instant unsupply-block if you messed up and forgot depots (or had them blown up). That's a pretty forgiving macro mechanic compared to the other races.
The three "race-specific" macro mechanics are supposed to be more or less equivalent, but I'm seeing two that are on the same level, and a third one that's clearly superior to both of them. Not for its immediate impact (mules by themselves are fine), but its forgiveness and its ability to be stored up and concentrated at a single point in time.
It's a get out of jail free card, reusable, and only available to terrans.
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On October 07 2014 02:30 DinoMight wrote:
That's the problem. Terran never thinks that Terran doesn't deserve to win. Especially vs P.
Really, I even said I think T looks too strong vZ atm. I just think it should be given more time. Looking at TvP match results and the way TvP plays out, I dont see many upsets (Zest losing to Flash, Bomber losing to Patience are the only two that come to mind) and the gameplay looks fairly balanced, if boring because Protoss are stuck opening Collosi again.
On October 07 2014 02:36 Big J wrote:I always ask myself where this myth comes from? Zerg has been quite fast to adapt to attacks. It rather baffles me for how long Terran players usually play inferior variations of their builds. I mean, Flash still plays hellbats over mines... talking about slow adaption.;-)
I guess I should say it typically takes longer for the defending race to learn how to defend a powerful all-in / timing consistently than it does for the aggressive race to use it frequently. Zerg just happens to be the race that is most often in a defending position.
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On October 07 2014 02:36 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 02:25 Pursuit_ wrote:On October 07 2014 02:11 Wombat_NI wrote:
Terran IS looking pretty strong ATM mind, especially in TvP (from the games I've watched which don't include every game obviously) Really? We must be watching very different games, I haven't seen a TvP recently where the win looked undeserved (from either side) recently, whereas with TvZ I think Terran might be a little too strong atm. But mostly because of timings / ect that are still being figured out, Z has always taken the longest to adapt to new all-ins / timings. I always ask myself where this myth comes from? Zerg has been quite fast to adapt to attacks. It rather baffles me for how long Terran players usually play inferior variations of their builds. I mean, Flash still plays hellbats over mines... talking about slow adaption.
Might just be personal preference. There will always be certain styles with certain players.
From the games I've seen (been a while though) Flash incorporated mines but not as much as some other Terrans.
One could say Hellbats are more reliable than mines even if they are 'inferior' in dealing with Muta/Ling/Bane.
As for TvP, maps where medivacs can go all around and drop in every little corner seem very strong for that kind of play.
In the games of MMA vs San he was dropping all over the place all the time.
And while this may favor Terran when playing in such a manner, I still have to give my hat off to MMA for being able to multitask to that extent. TvP will always be a volatile matchup, it rarely if ever goes even in a large fight.
It's glass cannon vs deathball with splash damage. Either the EMPs land and the Vikings do their job, or the Storms land and the Colossi melt everything. Given the broad amount of time where Blink all-ins and such were the norm, I'd still say it's too soon to start changing things again.
For TvZ, the two things I've seen Zergs die to that seems to cause some concern is the return of the 2rax (which was stronger back in the days of WoL) and Hellbat pushes.
Against Hellbats, I'm still of the opinion that Zergs are still playing too greedy, perhaps due to the meta before Hellbat pushes were around. The Hellbat is strong yes, but in essence it can be compared to a Roach bust.
Getting a lot of stuff out and just straight up attacking with it.
Nearly all of the times I've seen the Hellbat attack work, it worked because there were no Roaches or the Roaches were far too late and because there were too few Lings and Queens.
While I can imagine it is difficult to find out if Terran is getting an armory or not, is it that costly for Zerg to get a Roach Warren out or at least take some defensive measures?
So many times when I see this attack happen, Zerg suddenly has to scramble units whilst the Hellbats are already burning the door down. Zerg has plenty of strong attacks (Roach/Baneling bust for example) that can just as easily murder a Terran who is playing greedy. If Terran scouts it, Bunkers and Tanks go up and SCVs might be sacrificed to repair bunkers and hold the line. Sacrifices are still made if the attack is held off.
Why should a Zerg who has only 12-16 Zerglings and 2-3 Queens and is massing up Drones NOT die to 8-10 Hellbats and a bunch of Marines supported Medivacs?
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On October 07 2014 02:46 Maniak_ wrote:
The issue is not with dropping one mule every 100 seconds-ish. That gives a boost, but nothing game-shattering. The issue is that the terran can forget to use them (or choose to store them), rely on the normal mining rate, and drop them all at once whenever he needs it. And *this* gives a huge enough mineral boost to compensate for losing a lot of scvs or to keep producing 10 marines at a time after losing everything.
Neither protoss nor zerg have anything *that* forgiving. As protoss, if you need to rebuild probes, you can chronoboost the nexuses, sure, but you have to do it right on time. You can't chronoboost the same building twice at the same moment. As zerg, miss an inject and you'll never recover the time lost. If you need to have your queens in front of your bases to stop hellions or chase reapers, you lose injects and you can't get them back.
This.
Also, when you've lost a lot of workers, the MULE mechanic is obviously superior because it trades energy for income.
Larva and Chrono boost allow you to remake workers faster, ASSUMING YOU HAVE MONEY TO MAKE THEM (which you might not if you've just lost a lot of workers). Mules can be dropped 12 at a time and instantly boost your income back to the level that you need to keep making stuff while your SCV count rises.
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On October 07 2014 02:46 Maniak_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 00:44 Lexender wrote:
People give too much credit to the the MULE for what its worth, a 3CC will give you 3 MULES every 100 seconds-ish, with each MULE living for 90 seconds, with each MULE mining about 4 times what a worker does, it means during 90 out of every 100 seconds 3CC gives you the mining time of 12 workers, Add a cooldown on this skill so that terrans have to drop mules in time or lose the opportunity (like the other races have to do) and your argument will be valid. The issue is not with dropping one mule every 100 seconds-ish. That gives a boost, but nothing game-shattering. The issue is that the terran can forget to use them (or choose to store them), rely on the normal mining rate, and drop them all at once whenever he needs it. And *this* gives a huge enough mineral boost to compensate for losing a lot of scvs or to keep producing 10 marines at a time after losing everything. Neither protoss nor zerg have anything *that* forgiving. As protoss, if you need to rebuild probes, you can chronoboost the nexuses, sure, but you have to do it right on time. You can't chronoboost the same building twice at the same moment. As zerg, miss an inject and you'll never recover the time lost. If you need to have your queens in front of your bases to stop hellions or chase reapers, you lose injects and you can't get them back. As terran, you can choose to store up the energy until such time as you finally decide if you need a scan or if you'd rather have a near-immediate mineral boost. Or get an instant unsupply-block if you messed up and forgot depots (or had them blown up). That's a pretty forgiving macro mechanic compared to the other races. The three "race-specific" macro mechanics are supposed to be more or less equivalent, but I'm seeing two that are on the same level, and a third one that's clearly superior to both of them. Not for its immediate impact (mules by themselves are fine), but its forgiveness and its ability to be stored up and concentrated at a single point in time. It's a get out of jail free card, reusable, and only available to terrans.
It also cost twice the energy for less the effect. Larva and Chrono are MUCH more powerful per cast and cost half the resource to use.
A small cooldown would be fine, 5-10 seconds to prevent spamming but still encourage pooling of energy. The reason it costs twice as much energy for less gain is because it should be more flexible.
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On October 07 2014 02:52 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 02:30 DinoMight wrote:
That's the problem. Terran never thinks that Terran doesn't deserve to win. Especially vs P. Really, I even said I think T looks too strong vZ atm. I just think it should be given more time. Looking at TvP match results and the way TvP plays out, I dont see many upsets (Zest losing to Flash, Bomber losing to Patience are the only two that come to mind) and the gameplay looks fairly balanced, if boring because Protoss are stuck opening Collosi again. Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 02:36 Big J wrote:I always ask myself where this myth comes from? Zerg has been quite fast to adapt to attacks. It rather baffles me for how long Terran players usually play inferior variations of their builds. I mean, Flash still plays hellbats over mines... talking about slow adaption.;-) I guess I should say it typically takes longer for the defending race to learn how to defend a powerful all-in / timing consistently than it does for the aggressive race to use it frequently. Zerg just happens to be the race that is most often in a defending position.
When a race is forced into one particular opening every game, the other races gain an advantage because they can meta game that style.
This is what Terrans complained about forever when Protoss was strong.
Having to open Colossus every game is not just boring.. it's a strategic disadvantage.
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On October 07 2014 02:52 Thezzy wrote:
While I can imagine it is difficult to find out if Terran is getting an armory or not, is it that costly for Zerg to get a Roach Warren out or at least take some defensive measures?
Zergs don't even need a Roach Warren. Standard 5+ Queens with a 6'30-40 bane nest into reactively morphing banes when you see Hellions transforming under the eye of an Overlord handles all Hellbat timings.
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On October 07 2014 02:43 TokO wrote:
You might have a point about Terran being slow to adapt, I tried to argue that, but got promptly rejected. The slow zerg myth comes from the time when Zerg played Roach-Hydra-Corrupter against Stalker-Colossus for like one and a half year, and cried imbatoss for most of that time. Turns out, without much change to zerg, they found ways to actually be at least just as good as protoss, if not better, after Stephano started his successful spree, ushering the age of BL Infestor and patchzerg namecalling.
That's some rediculous revisionist history, the infestor buff was huge (over double DPS on Fungal), maps got way bigger and Zergs got better at dealing with gateway openings forcing P into FFE (giving Zerg's basically free thirds) and the Queen buff allowed Zerg to take a very fast, very safe third vT with very strong creep spread.
edit: And even then it was a long time before 'patchzergs' started emerging, because it took months for Zerg to refine builds that dealt with the majority of Protoss / Terran timings from those advantages.
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On October 07 2014 02:58 DinoMight wrote:
This is what Terrans complained about forever when Protoss was strong.
Having to open Colossus every game is not just boring.. it's a strategic disadvantage.
I agree 100%, weakening HT openings and making Collosi 'standard' makes Protoss weaker. But it's only a relative advantage for Terran compared to the times when Protoss had an insane amount of openings and Terran had one. Now both races have one safe, standard way to play the matchup and a decent variety of 'gimmick' builds they can try.
And I don't see any evidence that Terran 'standard' is stronger than Protoss 'standard'. In terms of Balance it seems quite even.
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On October 07 2014 02:38 KaneMX wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 01:51 Dingodile wrote:On October 06 2014 20:26 Big J wrote:On October 06 2014 20:15 Dingodile wrote:
Well with my suggestion 1) zerg can scout at terran natural if there are hellbats so zerg does know now not to play greedy as usual and 2) hellbat push comes 1min later (due to transformation servos upgrade time) so zerg has a better conclusion that terran has most likely upgraded the transformation servos).
It's more predictable than what we have now from zerg perspective. Terran is not going to upgrade Trafo Servos. Ever. We had that, it didn't happen. It's clunky, takes too long and costs too much. Also it is not a real problem in terms of power of the hellion-hellbat. If you know on time it is coming you can basically just choose the right techs/units early enough and just win. The game in general has a serious scouting issue that makes it very easy to either deny scouts by killing them before they see something, or just building stuff where it is hard/unlikely to get scouted. But here it becomes a question of philosophy. Do you want information-based play or don't you want it. I dont think we had that. with my suggestion you can produce hellbats without armory, only for the transformation you need armory+transformation servos. Its an huge difference for zerg if you detect hellbats at terran base or close to 3rdHatch (from hellion morph). Do this and the game is perfectly balanced and needs no more change until LotV.
I noticed that hellbats+medivac push is too strong then, I think. No healing to hellbats but is unlocked if you build armory.
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On October 07 2014 03:03 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 02:43 TokO wrote:
You might have a point about Terran being slow to adapt, I tried to argue that, but got promptly rejected. The slow zerg myth comes from the time when Zerg played Roach-Hydra-Corrupter against Stalker-Colossus for like one and a half year, and cried imbatoss for most of that time. Turns out, without much change to zerg, they found ways to actually be at least just as good as protoss, if not better, after Stephano started his successful spree, ushering the age of BL Infestor and patchzerg namecalling.
That's some rediculous revisionist history, the infestor buff was huge (over double DPS on Fungal), maps got way bigger and Zergs got better at dealing with gateway openings forcing P into FFE (giving Zerg's basically free thirds) and the Queen buff allowed Zerg to take a very fast, very safe third vT with very strong creep spread. edit: And even then it was a long time before 'patchzergs' started emerging, because it took months for Zerg to refine builds from those advantages.
I mean, most of those changes benefitted Protoss though, so in spite of zerg becoming more successful, many changes were in favour of Protoss. I'm pretty sure Fungals became much shorter. If zergs did roach-maxes against protoss on maps like Metalopolis and Xel'Naga caverns, I'm pretty sure they'd enjoy a lot of success. But yeah, it's a rough sketch, but whines were had regardless.
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Northern Ireland26467 Posts
On October 07 2014 02:58 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 02:52 Pursuit_ wrote:On October 07 2014 02:30 DinoMight wrote:
That's the problem. Terran never thinks that Terran doesn't deserve to win. Especially vs P. Really, I even said I think T looks too strong vZ atm. I just think it should be given more time. Looking at TvP match results and the way TvP plays out, I dont see many upsets (Zest losing to Flash, Bomber losing to Patience are the only two that come to mind) and the gameplay looks fairly balanced, if boring because Protoss are stuck opening Collosi again. On October 07 2014 02:36 Big J wrote:I always ask myself where this myth comes from? Zerg has been quite fast to adapt to attacks. It rather baffles me for how long Terran players usually play inferior variations of their builds. I mean, Flash still plays hellbats over mines... talking about slow adaption.;-) I guess I should say it typically takes longer for the defending race to learn how to defend a powerful all-in / timing consistently than it does for the aggressive race to use it frequently. Zerg just happens to be the race that is most often in a defending position. When a race is forced into one particular opening every game, the other races gain an advantage because they can meta game that style. This is what Terrans complained about forever when Protoss was strong. Having to open Colossus every game is not just boring.. it's a strategic disadvantage.
This. Was going to post and spotted, didn't want people to think I felt T is too strong against Protoss ATM.
Aside from a few games, every macro game I see is some variant on opening with Blink/Collosus and zzzzzz
I'd love to see Templar first return to being an equally potent opening, without breaking things balance wise. Makes for better games, more skirmishes and more action. That's how those games pan out
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On October 07 2014 03:20 TokO wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 03:03 Pursuit_ wrote:On October 07 2014 02:43 TokO wrote:
You might have a point about Terran being slow to adapt, I tried to argue that, but got promptly rejected. The slow zerg myth comes from the time when Zerg played Roach-Hydra-Corrupter against Stalker-Colossus for like one and a half year, and cried imbatoss for most of that time. Turns out, without much change to zerg, they found ways to actually be at least just as good as protoss, if not better, after Stephano started his successful spree, ushering the age of BL Infestor and patchzerg namecalling.
That's some rediculous revisionist history, the infestor buff was huge (over double DPS on Fungal), maps got way bigger and Zergs got better at dealing with gateway openings forcing P into FFE (giving Zerg's basically free thirds) and the Queen buff allowed Zerg to take a very fast, very safe third vT with very strong creep spread. edit: And even then it was a long time before 'patchzergs' started emerging, because it took months for Zerg to refine builds from those advantages. I mean, most of those changes benefitted Protoss though, so in spite of zerg becoming more successful, many changes were in favour of Protoss. I'm pretty sure Fungals became much shorter. If zergs did roach-maxes against protoss on maps like Metalopolis and Xel'Naga caverns, I'm pretty sure they'd enjoy a lot of success. But yeah, it's a rough sketch, but whines were had regardless.
Zerg wouldn't have the opportunity to Roach max on a map like Xel'Naga because Protoss would be opening with some form of gateway expand due to the smaller map size and no way off wall off the natural (edit: and Zerg doesn't have a safe third to take either). 11 Minute Roach max required unharassed 3 hatch and nothing but drones / queens (and 2-4 lings to scout / deny cannon rush) until 6:00 when your first 2 gas started.
edit: It was typical for Zerg to have 70+ supply by 8:00... consisting of 3 queens, 4 lings and 60-70+ drones.
On October 07 2014 03:20 Wombat_NI wrote:
This. Was going to post and spotted, didn't want people to think I felt T is too strong against Protoss ATM.
Aside from a few games, every macro game I see is some variant on opening with Blink/Collosus and zzzzzz
I'd love to see Templar first return to being an equally potent opening, without breaking things balance wise. Makes for better games, more skirmishes and more action. That's how those games pan out
I agree with this too, I honestly felt like buffing the mine was the worst way to 'balance' TvP. But that's from a design perspective- Collosi are simply boring units that reward passive play and require a specific counter (vikings), whereas HT are interesting / dynamic units that can fulfill multiple rolls and leave Terran with multiple responses.
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On October 07 2014 03:20 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 02:58 DinoMight wrote:On October 07 2014 02:52 Pursuit_ wrote:On October 07 2014 02:30 DinoMight wrote:
That's the problem. Terran never thinks that Terran doesn't deserve to win. Especially vs P. Really, I even said I think T looks too strong vZ atm. I just think it should be given more time. Looking at TvP match results and the way TvP plays out, I dont see many upsets (Zest losing to Flash, Bomber losing to Patience are the only two that come to mind) and the gameplay looks fairly balanced, if boring because Protoss are stuck opening Collosi again. On October 07 2014 02:36 Big J wrote:I always ask myself where this myth comes from? Zerg has been quite fast to adapt to attacks. It rather baffles me for how long Terran players usually play inferior variations of their builds. I mean, Flash still plays hellbats over mines... talking about slow adaption.;-) I guess I should say it typically takes longer for the defending race to learn how to defend a powerful all-in / timing consistently than it does for the aggressive race to use it frequently. Zerg just happens to be the race that is most often in a defending position. When a race is forced into one particular opening every game, the other races gain an advantage because they can meta game that style. This is what Terrans complained about forever when Protoss was strong. Having to open Colossus every game is not just boring.. it's a strategic disadvantage. This. Was going to post and spotted, didn't want people to think I felt T is too strong against Protoss ATM. Aside from a few games, every macro game I see is some variant on opening with Blink/Collosus and zzzzzz I'd love to see Templar first return to being an equally potent opening, without breaking things balance wise. Makes for better games, more skirmishes and more action. That's how those games pan out
Don't worry, I would say there are decent chances they come back spontaneously.
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On October 07 2014 03:26 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 03:20 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 07 2014 02:58 DinoMight wrote:On October 07 2014 02:52 Pursuit_ wrote:On October 07 2014 02:30 DinoMight wrote:
That's the problem. Terran never thinks that Terran doesn't deserve to win. Especially vs P. Really, I even said I think T looks too strong vZ atm. I just think it should be given more time. Looking at TvP match results and the way TvP plays out, I dont see many upsets (Zest losing to Flash, Bomber losing to Patience are the only two that come to mind) and the gameplay looks fairly balanced, if boring because Protoss are stuck opening Collosi again. On October 07 2014 02:36 Big J wrote:I always ask myself where this myth comes from? Zerg has been quite fast to adapt to attacks. It rather baffles me for how long Terran players usually play inferior variations of their builds. I mean, Flash still plays hellbats over mines... talking about slow adaption.;-) I guess I should say it typically takes longer for the defending race to learn how to defend a powerful all-in / timing consistently than it does for the aggressive race to use it frequently. Zerg just happens to be the race that is most often in a defending position. When a race is forced into one particular opening every game, the other races gain an advantage because they can meta game that style. This is what Terrans complained about forever when Protoss was strong. Having to open Colossus every game is not just boring.. it's a strategic disadvantage. This. Was going to post and spotted, didn't want people to think I felt T is too strong against Protoss ATM. Aside from a few games, every macro game I see is some variant on opening with Blink/Collosus and zzzzzz I'd love to see Templar first return to being an equally potent opening, without breaking things balance wise. Makes for better games, more skirmishes and more action. That's how those games pan out Don't worry, I would say there are decent chances they come back spontaneously.
Tell that to PartinG. When the guy who practically invented the mass HT style vs T has a TL guide written about his Stalkers/Colossus, you know HT first is dead.
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EPT
