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On October 07 2014 06:04 deacon.frost wrote:You want to solve the mine/templar problem? 1) Lower mine Hp to 75, so it CANNOT go through storm and kill the army. Give the storm +20 shield damage(distributed through those 4 seconds) as a trade off. This way we give a HUGE change to PvP(no more war of words or immo/archon), we slightly nerf templars in PvT(chargelots will die a little bit faster). We can tweak somehow the armor of mine so it survives longer in TvZ(benefits mine from armor upgrades?) or 2) Storm receives +20 dmg to burrowed units. It is kinda iffy, but the biggest problems with mines = you cannot kill them with templar tech, you need "some" stalkers or immortals. (roaches regen so fast they may not notice :D) Also some "invisibility" upgrade against scan to observer would be nice(raven/turret would see it all). Maybe from cyber core once templar archives are on, 100/100/60? Or we can return observatory with speed/vision/cloak upgrades...  Also a thinking over the map pool would be nice, so it is race neutral...
Mines benefit from armour.
The problem will be Mines dieing to 2 banelings instead of 3 after +1 is done and in 8-9 Mutalisk shots.
You overestimate the change to PvP. Storm is capped at a certain DPS over an area because it does not stack. Collosi do.
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On October 07 2014 06:07 TokO wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 05:35 Big J wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 07 2014 02:43 TokO wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 02:32 johnbongham wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 07 2014 02:07 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 01:16 TheDwf wrote:On October 07 2014 00:56 DinoMight wrote:On October 07 2014 00:51 Lexender wrote:On October 07 2014 00:50 DinoMight wrote:On October 07 2014 00:44 Lexender wrote:
To be honest I like the state of the game as it is right know, when the MULE/Warpgate/Larvae are the things being discussed you know the balance is ok because those are the things that are not going to be changed pretty much never.
Weeellll... hold your horses there. Terran is looking pretty pretty pretty strong at the moment... Perhaps but you can make that case on behalf of Hellbat/WM/Map pool MULEs on the other hand. Well I was just trying to say that discussing MULES doesn't imply the rest of the game isn't broken. Given the current map pool, widow mines, and hellbats, I don't think a Terran can lose a Bo5+ unless his opponent is much better.  sOs 3-0  RealityherO 3-1 SorryherO 3-1 BomberherO 3-0 FlashZest 3-0 YoDaDear 3-1 FanTaSyYongHwa 3-2 SuperNovaYongHwa 4-2 JourneyJim 3-1 SuperNovaeMotion 3-0 KeeN... Innovation is like the perfect Terran imbarometer. His win rates rise and fall in perfect correlation with Terran patches.  As evidenced by this or this? Patch 1.4.3 was such a heaven for Terran... I wasn't only referring to TvP. And a lot of these have clear favorites. Can't you guys take a joke? Come on.. I thought "imbarometer" was pretty clever. Say what you will, but he was great - then they nerfed widow mines and hellbats and he became not so great, then they re-buffed both those things and he won the GSL. Lately T is quite strong and I think it's dishonest to ignore that... Yeah, maybe because Innovation is a great player who was unfairly hampered by the nerf patch and is now finally playing on an even playing field again? Wow, big deal, Inno and MMA won some tournaments, bomber too. Its not like we had a long list of 10 different protoss 'champions' one after the other after the other to start the year off for 6 entire months? At least these terran champions have been champions throughout such a large amount of different patches and are more than proven to be among the world's best players. Maybe come back when a bunch of random terrans start winning anything. This argument is really shallow, as it undermines any new talent. It also disregards the fact that most of the Protoss champions had actually proven themselves to be the most dominant players in a higher a more difficult setting, prior to going overseas and winning all those tournaments, which were arguably easier. Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 02:36 Big J wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 07 2014 02:25 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 02:11 Wombat_NI wrote:
Terran IS looking pretty strong ATM mind, especially in TvP (from the games I've watched which don't include every game obviously) Really? We must be watching very different games, I haven't seen a TvP recently where the win looked undeserved (from either side) recently, whereas with TvZ I think Terran might be a little too strong atm. But mostly because of timings / ect that are still being figured out, Z has always taken the longest to adapt to new all-ins / timings. I always ask myself where this myth comes from? Zerg has been quite fast to adapt to attacks. It rather baffles me for how long Terran players usually play inferior variations of their builds. I mean, Flash still plays hellbats over mines... talking about slow adaption.;-) You might have a point about Terran being slow to adapt, I tried to argue that, but got promptly rejected. The slow zerg myth comes from the time when Zerg played Roach-Hydra-Corrupter against Stalker-Colossus for like one and a half year, and cried imbatoss for most of that time. Turns out, without much change to zerg, they found ways to actually be at least just as good as protoss, if not better, after Stephano started his successful spree, ushering the age of BL Infestor and patchzerg namecalling. Everyone knew roach hydra was shit.ther just wasnt anything else. Zergs were right and rightfully cried for maps where they could take fast thirds. That was the change. (And it basically broke PvZ in the other direction until Ps adapted) long before stephano I don't think I've ever felt that Protoss was ever underpowered against Zerg. People always at the time thinks that they do everything possible, that there is never anything they can do to adapt, and therefore always resort to balance whine. I've felt that in hindsight, one could often realise that it was possible to play their race better. But it doesn't seem like that sentiment is very accepted.
You missed the end of WOL  ?
There's indeed a lot of unbased complaining atm. The game is quite fine.
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On October 07 2014 06:09 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 06:07 TokO wrote:On October 07 2014 05:35 Big J wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 07 2014 02:43 TokO wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 02:32 johnbongham wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 07 2014 02:07 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 01:16 TheDwf wrote:On October 07 2014 00:56 DinoMight wrote:On October 07 2014 00:51 Lexender wrote:On October 07 2014 00:50 DinoMight wrote:On October 07 2014 00:44 Lexender wrote:
To be honest I like the state of the game as it is right know, when the MULE/Warpgate/Larvae are the things being discussed you know the balance is ok because those are the things that are not going to be changed pretty much never.
Weeellll... hold your horses there. Terran is looking pretty pretty pretty strong at the moment... Perhaps but you can make that case on behalf of Hellbat/WM/Map pool MULEs on the other hand. Well I was just trying to say that discussing MULES doesn't imply the rest of the game isn't broken. Given the current map pool, widow mines, and hellbats, I don't think a Terran can lose a Bo5+ unless his opponent is much better. sOs 3-0 RealityherO 3-1 SorryherO 3-1 BomberherO 3-0 FlashZest 3-0 YoDaDear 3-1 FanTaSyYongHwa 3-2 SuperNovaYongHwa 4-2 JourneyJim 3-1 SuperNovaeMotion 3-0 KeeN... Innovation is like the perfect Terran imbarometer. His win rates rise and fall in perfect correlation with Terran patches. As evidenced by this or this? Patch 1.4.3 was such a heaven for Terran... I wasn't only referring to TvP. And a lot of these have clear favorites. Can't you guys take a joke? Come on.. I thought "imbarometer" was pretty clever. Say what you will, but he was great - then they nerfed widow mines and hellbats and he became not so great, then they re-buffed both those things and he won the GSL. Lately T is quite strong and I think it's dishonest to ignore that... Yeah, maybe because Innovation is a great player who was unfairly hampered by the nerf patch and is now finally playing on an even playing field again? Wow, big deal, Inno and MMA won some tournaments, bomber too. Its not like we had a long list of 10 different protoss 'champions' one after the other after the other to start the year off for 6 entire months? At least these terran champions have been champions throughout such a large amount of different patches and are more than proven to be among the world's best players. Maybe come back when a bunch of random terrans start winning anything. This argument is really shallow, as it undermines any new talent. It also disregards the fact that most of the Protoss champions had actually proven themselves to be the most dominant players in a higher a more difficult setting, prior to going overseas and winning all those tournaments, which were arguably easier. Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 02:36 Big J wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 07 2014 02:25 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 02:11 Wombat_NI wrote:
Terran IS looking pretty strong ATM mind, especially in TvP (from the games I've watched which don't include every game obviously) Really? We must be watching very different games, I haven't seen a TvP recently where the win looked undeserved (from either side) recently, whereas with TvZ I think Terran might be a little too strong atm. But mostly because of timings / ect that are still being figured out, Z has always taken the longest to adapt to new all-ins / timings. I always ask myself where this myth comes from? Zerg has been quite fast to adapt to attacks. It rather baffles me for how long Terran players usually play inferior variations of their builds. I mean, Flash still plays hellbats over mines... talking about slow adaption.;-) You might have a point about Terran being slow to adapt, I tried to argue that, but got promptly rejected. The slow zerg myth comes from the time when Zerg played Roach-Hydra-Corrupter against Stalker-Colossus for like one and a half year, and cried imbatoss for most of that time. Turns out, without much change to zerg, they found ways to actually be at least just as good as protoss, if not better, after Stephano started his successful spree, ushering the age of BL Infestor and patchzerg namecalling. Everyone knew roach hydra was shit.ther just wasnt anything else. Zergs were right and rightfully cried for maps where they could take fast thirds. That was the change. (And it basically broke PvZ in the other direction until Ps adapted) long before stephano I don't think I've ever felt that Protoss was ever underpowered against Zerg. People always at the time thinks that they do everything possible, that there is never anything they can do to adapt, and therefore always resort to balance whine. I've felt that in hindsight, one could often realise that it was possible to play their race better. But it doesn't seem like that sentiment is very accepted. You missed the end of WOL ? There's indeed a lot of unbased complaining atm. The game is quite fine.
I definitely didn't. People whined, but I think if people played as active as they do today against SH, I think we would have been fine.
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On October 07 2014 06:04 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 06:00 Decendos wrote:
sad to see zvt being in such a bad state just because Z scouting options are such a mess with 1 marine denying vision or ovis not even being in place to scout on bigger maps while ovispeed is WAY too expensive. no way you have enough gas for lingspeed, ovispeed and roaches to hold of the possible hellbat push. there are just way too many unscoutable options for T right now. While I agree Zerg may be struggling a bit in the later stages of the game, this is not the reason. 1 Marines doesn't deny scouting as you should have 2 overlords and scouts at the front. You can still poke in a little bit or opt to suicide an overlord.
erm what? you will NEVER have 2 overlords in position and on maps like nimbus or deadwing you will often times have 0 overlords at the T base. on deadwing there is no way to scout with slow overlords...literally no way especially if you scout him 2nd. your first ovi cant even go to his base since you have to scout for proxy 2 rax. oh and the hellbat marine medivac push hits at like 7:40? so yeah you will never ever have slow ovis scouting that at 6:00 (later scout = too late to react).
its just very bad for the game if you have to literally guess whatever T will do since you also cant scout with lings vs reaper into helions. not being able to scout is the main reason Z is struggling so hard vs T right now. T techtree offers so many viable options which is very good for the game....sadly Z (and also P) dont have those many options which i hope blizz is gonna fix in LotV (like making ovispeed cheaper, burrow cheaper so both are actually usable prelair, making nydus, drop and burrow movement viable, make corruptors an actual unit, change neural to sth. not that OP or useless like its now etc.)
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On October 07 2014 06:19 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 06:04 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 07 2014 06:00 Decendos wrote:
sad to see zvt being in such a bad state just because Z scouting options are such a mess with 1 marine denying vision or ovis not even being in place to scout on bigger maps while ovispeed is WAY too expensive. no way you have enough gas for lingspeed, ovispeed and roaches to hold of the possible hellbat push. there are just way too many unscoutable options for T right now. While I agree Zerg may be struggling a bit in the later stages of the game, this is not the reason. 1 Marines doesn't deny scouting as you should have 2 overlords and scouts at the front. You can still poke in a little bit or opt to suicide an overlord. erm what? you will NEVER have 2 overlords in position and on maps like nimbus or deadwing you will often times have 0 overlords at the T base. on deadwing there is no way to scout with slow overlords...
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/SCUpgrade/Pneumatized_Carapace
+ 6'30-40 bane nest if necessary
http://www.twitch.tv/khaldor/b/570387510?t=2h10m00s
You're welcome.
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Haha, people here need to hear the IdrA Day[9] debate.
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On October 07 2014 03:55 TheDwf wrote:As for non-existant VODs + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilLlMLE9A5U I don't know where exactly the current viability lies, but it's certainly not "dead," and I'm ready to bet it will make a resurgence of its own in the next weeks/months.
I just went through these - are you joking?
1) Innovation wins
2) Cure wins
3) Sos wins because reality basically throws his army away for free
4) Flash wins
5) CJ Hero wins vs Bomber. Okay.
6) Bunny ROFLSTOMPS San on Kappallena.
So this strategy is 2-4 in the games you show including one win where a doom drop attempt gets half the medivacs feedbacked.
Even if they don't die outright (which San did). The Protoss end up being so far behind economically when chosing to play this strategy that they lose the game in the end. You just can't expand fast enough with HT agaisnt someone going Widow Mines because you have nothing to kill the mines efficiently and your Zealots can't fight effectively.
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Northern Ireland23767 Posts
Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man.
It'll be interesting to see what people come up with post-Blizzcon without as packed a tournament schedule we might see pros more comfortable to experiment.
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On October 07 2014 06:29 Wombat_NI wrote:
Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man.
It'll be interesting to see what people come up with post-Blizzcon without as packed a tournament schedule we might see pros more comfortable to experiment.
HAHAHAHA.
Dude I'm quite reasonable despite what TheDwf and SC2Toastie have to say. I've actually been avoiding this forum for a while by my standards so I needed to come and make an appearance.
Besides my stream is more fun.
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What is an allin?
An attack where you sacrifice tech and/or economy, upon which if failed would leave you so far behind that makes it almost impossible to recover.
Example. Protoss 8 gate blink allin against terran. Designed to make use of warpin mechanics so that you with an additional warpin cycle to trade efficiently against MM before stim and medivac on 46 probes, without a third nexus and robo. If the attack fail, the bio will be so bolstered by medivacs and stim combat shield, that the resulting counterattack would be impossible to hold without aoe(colossus) and upgrades.
Based on this logic/criteria to define allin. Terran really do not have much allin. The reasons are:
1. Production mechanics. Protoss gateway and Zerg production mechanics are similar in the sense that you get a massive swell of units by chrono of gates warpin, and really do not need to explain for Zerg. For terran, the oft quoted reason by terran players that their race is the hardest race mechanically because they have to constantly produce units. You look at spending by terran vs Zerg and Protoss. Zerg and Protoss spending in play is in spikes, chrono probes, upgrades and building tech buildings to open up availability for units (robo bay, greater spire etc). Invest in tech and economy before building tons of units. That is why scouting is more important for Zerg and Protoss. The difference between seeing the third rax and not is a 50% increase in army size barrrelling towards you. Terrans are always producing units, so it is not a case of an allin like Zerg/Protoss where there is a sudden swell of units.
2. Tech. Tech buildings open up the fastest for terran units availability. Other than battlecruiser and ghost. All units are available the moment you finish your star port. There is less 'sacrifice' for tech when performing a strong attack compared to Zerg and Protoss. I'm not saying there is no sacrifice at all, like forgoing upgrades to build an 2 medivacs. But terrans do not face the problem like Protoss if caught without aoe units when terran attacks come because the Protoss built 12 more stalkers for the allin instead of churning out a colossus with thermal lens.
3. Economy. When MVP in game 7 against squirtle pulled the boys the first time in a failed attack. It wasn't an allin. He had mules. He scv pull a second time. A roach bane is an allin because of tech. A 10 pool/bane is an allin because of economy in zvz.
The game design and mechanics is such that Protoss and zergs have very powerful allin. It is up to the trickery of the player to pull it off, mostly by denying scouting. For terrans, an attack when 1-1 completes with stim and medivacs is not an allin. It's an timing attack.
Proxy 11/11. Not an allin. Tech is delayed yes. But it is unthinkable that a Zerg when facing 11/11 would tech to lair, or even get gas. Economy. Terran is still producing scv and calling down mules and producing off 2 barracks. This is the limitation of Zerg production and economy. I cringe whenever casters say that the Zerg is losing so much mining time when pulling about 7 drones to fight 11/11. Losing the natural hatch will cause Zerg to lose so much production due to larva. The zerg would be banking minerals which he has no production to spend if the drones are mining. The reaction of Zerg to 10 pool vs 11/11 is that vs 10 pool. They gladly give up the natural because the opponent is also on 1 hatch. Vs 11/11, you lose the hatch, you are dead. Because production of marines off 2 rax and a command centre building scv is far superior to 1 hatch and a queen injecting.
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On October 07 2014 06:23 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 06:19 Decendos wrote:On October 07 2014 06:04 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 07 2014 06:00 Decendos wrote:
sad to see zvt being in such a bad state just because Z scouting options are such a mess with 1 marine denying vision or ovis not even being in place to scout on bigger maps while ovispeed is WAY too expensive. no way you have enough gas for lingspeed, ovispeed and roaches to hold of the possible hellbat push. there are just way too many unscoutable options for T right now. While I agree Zerg may be struggling a bit in the later stages of the game, this is not the reason. 1 Marines doesn't deny scouting as you should have 2 overlords and scouts at the front. You can still poke in a little bit or opt to suicide an overlord. erm what? you will NEVER have 2 overlords in position and on maps like nimbus or deadwing you will often times have 0 overlords at the T base. on deadwing there is no way to scout with slow overlords... http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/SCUpgrade/Pneumatized_Carapace+ 6'30-40 bane nest if necessary http://www.twitch.tv/khaldor/b/570387510?t=2h10m00sYou're welcome.
and now do this on deadwing vs 2 rax. send out your first ovi to one base and take early gas...you are in a horrible spot compared to gasless + oviscouting for 2 rax which already is super hard to hold as seen in many games.
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On October 07 2014 06:04 deacon.frost wrote:
You want to solve the mine/templar problem?
1) Lower mine Hp to 75, so it CANNOT go through storm and kill the army. Give the storm +20 shield damage(distributed through those 4 seconds) as a trade off. This way we give a HUGE change to PvP(no more war of words or immo/archon), we slightly nerf templars in PvT(chargelots will die a little bit faster). We can tweak somehow the armor of mine so it survives longer in TvZ(benefits mine from armor upgrades?)
I actually brought up the idea of storm +shields damage a long time ago. I really think players should be punished for missing a storm then right clicking their zealots through it.
I think being able to kill a mine with one storm is pretty reasonable as well. Encourages good mine placement from the Terran, and frankly storm is a damn costly way to kill a mine.
Pretty good suggestion overall.
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On October 07 2014 06:18 TokO wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 06:09 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 07 2014 06:07 TokO wrote:On October 07 2014 05:35 Big J wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 07 2014 02:43 TokO wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 02:32 johnbongham wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 07 2014 02:07 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 01:16 TheDwf wrote:On October 07 2014 00:56 DinoMight wrote:On October 07 2014 00:51 Lexender wrote:On October 07 2014 00:50 DinoMight wrote:On October 07 2014 00:44 Lexender wrote:
To be honest I like the state of the game as it is right know, when the MULE/Warpgate/Larvae are the things being discussed you know the balance is ok because those are the things that are not going to be changed pretty much never.
Weeellll... hold your horses there. Terran is looking pretty pretty pretty strong at the moment... Perhaps but you can make that case on behalf of Hellbat/WM/Map pool MULEs on the other hand. Well I was just trying to say that discussing MULES doesn't imply the rest of the game isn't broken. Given the current map pool, widow mines, and hellbats, I don't think a Terran can lose a Bo5+ unless his opponent is much better. sOs 3-0 RealityherO 3-1 SorryherO 3-1 BomberherO 3-0 FlashZest 3-0 YoDaDear 3-1 FanTaSyYongHwa 3-2 SuperNovaYongHwa 4-2 JourneyJim 3-1 SuperNovaeMotion 3-0 KeeN... Innovation is like the perfect Terran imbarometer. His win rates rise and fall in perfect correlation with Terran patches. As evidenced by this or this? Patch 1.4.3 was such a heaven for Terran... I wasn't only referring to TvP. And a lot of these have clear favorites. Can't you guys take a joke? Come on.. I thought "imbarometer" was pretty clever. Say what you will, but he was great - then they nerfed widow mines and hellbats and he became not so great, then they re-buffed both those things and he won the GSL. Lately T is quite strong and I think it's dishonest to ignore that... Yeah, maybe because Innovation is a great player who was unfairly hampered by the nerf patch and is now finally playing on an even playing field again? Wow, big deal, Inno and MMA won some tournaments, bomber too. Its not like we had a long list of 10 different protoss 'champions' one after the other after the other to start the year off for 6 entire months? At least these terran champions have been champions throughout such a large amount of different patches and are more than proven to be among the world's best players. Maybe come back when a bunch of random terrans start winning anything. This argument is really shallow, as it undermines any new talent. It also disregards the fact that most of the Protoss champions had actually proven themselves to be the most dominant players in a higher a more difficult setting, prior to going overseas and winning all those tournaments, which were arguably easier. Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 02:36 Big J wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 07 2014 02:25 Pursuit_ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 02:11 Wombat_NI wrote:
Terran IS looking pretty strong ATM mind, especially in TvP (from the games I've watched which don't include every game obviously) Really? We must be watching very different games, I haven't seen a TvP recently where the win looked undeserved (from either side) recently, whereas with TvZ I think Terran might be a little too strong atm. But mostly because of timings / ect that are still being figured out, Z has always taken the longest to adapt to new all-ins / timings. I always ask myself where this myth comes from? Zerg has been quite fast to adapt to attacks. It rather baffles me for how long Terran players usually play inferior variations of their builds. I mean, Flash still plays hellbats over mines... talking about slow adaption.;-) You might have a point about Terran being slow to adapt, I tried to argue that, but got promptly rejected. The slow zerg myth comes from the time when Zerg played Roach-Hydra-Corrupter against Stalker-Colossus for like one and a half year, and cried imbatoss for most of that time. Turns out, without much change to zerg, they found ways to actually be at least just as good as protoss, if not better, after Stephano started his successful spree, ushering the age of BL Infestor and patchzerg namecalling. Everyone knew roach hydra was shit.ther just wasnt anything else. Zergs were right and rightfully cried for maps where they could take fast thirds. That was the change. (And it basically broke PvZ in the other direction until Ps adapted) long before stephano I don't think I've ever felt that Protoss was ever underpowered against Zerg. People always at the time thinks that they do everything possible, that there is never anything they can do to adapt, and therefore always resort to balance whine. I've felt that in hindsight, one could often realise that it was possible to play their race better. But it doesn't seem like that sentiment is very accepted. You missed the end of WOL ? There's indeed a lot of unbased complaining atm. The game is quite fine. I definitely didn't. People whined, but I think if people played as active as they do today against SH, I think we would have been fine.
The maps were a tad too cramped for that I think. Whatevsies, we'll never know :D
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On October 07 2014 06:26 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 03:55 TheDwf wrote:As for non-existant VODs + Show Spoiler +I don't know where exactly the current viability lies, but it's certainly not "dead," and I'm ready to bet it will make a resurgence of its own in the next weeks/months. I just went through these - are you joking? 1) Innovation wins 2) Cure wins 3) Sos wins because reality basically throws his army away for free 4) Flash wins 5) CJ Hero wins vs Bomber. Okay. 6) Bunny ROFLSTOMPS San on Kappallena. So this strategy is 2-4 in the games you show including one win where a doom drop attempt gets half the medivacs feedbacked. Even if they don't die outright (which San did). The Protoss end up being so far behind economically when chosing to play this strategy that they lose the game in the end. You just can't expand fast enough with HT agaisnt someone going Widow Mines because you have nothing to kill the mines efficiently and your Zealots can't fight effectively.
You're doing it again.
You claim it never happens,
He comes up with the first couple examples of it happening, thereby responding to your comment.
You qq about the examples and conveniently ignore the fact he PROVES it happens.
YOu seriously think those protosses are like, yolo money enough lets go for a dumb style that is up mega up cus trollol?
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On October 07 2014 06:31 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 06:29 Wombat_NI wrote:
Wtf I come back and find myself in camp DinoMight all of a sudden, feels weird man.
It'll be interesting to see what people come up with post-Blizzcon without as packed a tournament schedule we might see pros more comfortable to experiment. HAHAHAHA. Dude I'm quite reasonable despite what TheDwf and SC2Toastie have to say. I've actually been avoiding this forum for a while by my standards so I needed to come and make an appearance. Besides my stream is more fun.
And seriously, this is just a load of crap as well. Discuss or go to Battlenet forums please.
Please ask if you need me to thoroughly explain why it is if you are genuinly interested, because frankly, I don't feel like just typing it when I feel like you just don't care to read anyways.
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On October 07 2014 06:55 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 06:26 DinoMight wrote:On October 07 2014 03:55 TheDwf wrote:As for non-existant VODs + Show Spoiler +I don't know where exactly the current viability lies, but it's certainly not "dead," and I'm ready to bet it will make a resurgence of its own in the next weeks/months. I just went through these - are you joking? 1) Innovation wins 2) Cure wins 3) Sos wins because reality basically throws his army away for free 4) Flash wins 5) CJ Hero wins vs Bomber. Okay. 6) Bunny ROFLSTOMPS San on Kappallena. So this strategy is 2-4 in the games you show including one win where a doom drop attempt gets half the medivacs feedbacked. Even if they don't die outright (which San did). The Protoss end up being so far behind economically when chosing to play this strategy that they lose the game in the end. You just can't expand fast enough with HT agaisnt someone going Widow Mines because you have nothing to kill the mines efficiently and your Zealots can't fight effectively. You're doing it again. You claim it never happens, He comes up with the first couple examples of it happening, thereby responding to your comment. You qq about the examples and conveniently ignore the fact he PROVES it happens. YOu seriously think those protosses are like, yolo money enough lets go for a dumb style that is up mega up cus trollol?
I should have been more specific. HT used to be viable as a standard opening pre- widow mine buff. It is no longer the case. The reason is that mines are so effective against Zealots that you can't defend your bases and you fall behind economically.
So I said that HT openings had died. Not as in "literally they are used zero times" but as in "they used to be a standard opener, now they happen much less frequently."
TheDwF responds with some games saying "see it still happens." While technically correct, he is missing my point. Templar is something that is now played as a one off in a BoX series to try and throw off the opponent. If you open Colossus every single time you become predictable and easy to counter. I remember one game in the GSL that a Terran actually lost because he made Vikings blindly without even scouting the Templar opening (can't remember which game though).
Now, going through these games, only one of them showcases a "viable" HT style (CJ Hero vs. Bomber). Protoss lost all the games where Terran didn't make a huge mistake (like doom dropping onto a bunch of HT with feedback and Colossus).
So clearly, if he was trying to show that the style is viable, these games are not a good example. They're an example that on occasion, HT does in fact occur, but that wasn't really the point.
Why is what I'm saying so unreasonable?
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Northern Ireland23767 Posts
I don't know, I think people are all round being ridiculous in this thread.
Do we have to take everything absolutely literally? Dino clearly did not mean you never see Templar first anymore, ever, ever.
It's just the kind of silly nitpicking that is blighting this thread.
Hey look I can find Bbyong meching vP 3 games in a row, mech is a viable style now too right?
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On October 07 2014 07:09 Wombat_NI wrote:
I don't know, I think people are all round being ridiculous in this thread.
Do we have to take everything absolutely literally? Dino clearly did not mean you never see Templar first anymore, ever, ever.
It's just the kind of silly nitpicking that is blighting this thread.
Hey look I can find Bbyong meching vP 3 games in a row, mech is a viable style now too right?
Then I can say it only works on Out Boxer when Protoss doesn't scout it till 16 minutes
Game is fine. Night chaps!
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Northern Ireland23767 Posts
That was my point?
Too often 'viable' is used in lieu of 'this is a strong and consistent style'
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On October 07 2014 06:26 DinoMight wrote:
I just went through these - are you joking?
1) Innovation wins
2) Cure wins
3) Sos wins because reality basically throws his army away for free
4) Flash wins
5) CJ Hero wins vs Bomber. Okay.
6) Bunny ROFLSTOMPS San on Kappallena.
Lol. Shouldn't have bothered, there's no point arguing with someone who only looks at the final outcome and completely ignores what's happening in the games.
On October 07 2014 06:37 Decendos wrote:
and now do this on deadwing vs 2 rax. send out your first ovi to one base and take early gas...you are in a horrible spot compared to gasless + oviscouting for 2 rax which already is super hard to hold as seen in many games.
?? There's zero link with the current discussion.
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EPT
