On October 07 2014 02:30 DinoMight wrote: That's the problem. Terran never thinks that Terran doesn't deserve to win. Especially vs P.
Really, I even said I think T looks too strong vZ atm. I just think it should be given more time. Looking at TvP match results and the way TvP plays out, I dont see many upsets (Zest losing to Flash, Bomber losing to Patience are the only two that come to mind) and the gameplay looks fairly balanced, if boring because Protoss are stuck opening Collosi again.
On October 07 2014 02:36 Big J wrote:I always ask myself where this myth comes from? Zerg has been quite fast to adapt to attacks. It rather baffles me for how long Terran players usually play inferior variations of their builds. I mean, Flash still plays hellbats over mines... talking about slow adaption.;-)
I guess I should say it typically takes longer for the defending race to learn how to defend a powerful all-in / timing consistently than it does for the aggressive race to use it frequently. Zerg just happens to be the race that is most often in a defending position.
When a race is forced into one particular opening every game, the other races gain an advantage because they can meta game that style.
This is what Terrans complained about forever when Protoss was strong.
Having to open Colossus every game is not just boring.. it's a strategic disadvantage.
This. Was going to post and spotted, didn't want people to think I felt T is too strong against Protoss ATM.
Aside from a few games, every macro game I see is some variant on opening with Blink/Collosus and zzzzzz
I'd love to see Templar first return to being an equally potent opening, without breaking things balance wise. Makes for better games, more skirmishes and more action. That's how those games pan out
Don't worry, I would say there are decent chances they come back spontaneously.
Tell that to PartinG. When the guy who practically invented the mass HT style vs T has a TL guide written about his Stalkers/Colossus, you know HT first is dead.
That's just bullshit. Parting has always been a very versatile player. Also, players change.
We've not seen a lot of Templar play, but it's still brought out in tournaments every now and then, so it is at least somewhat legit.
May I advise you to actually make a case for whatever you're trying to argue instead of rambling random complaints all the time?
On October 07 2014 02:30 DinoMight wrote: That's the problem. Terran never thinks that Terran doesn't deserve to win. Especially vs P.
Really, I even said I think T looks too strong vZ atm. I just think it should be given more time. Looking at TvP match results and the way TvP plays out, I dont see many upsets (Zest losing to Flash, Bomber losing to Patience are the only two that come to mind) and the gameplay looks fairly balanced, if boring because Protoss are stuck opening Collosi again.
On October 07 2014 02:36 Big J wrote:I always ask myself where this myth comes from? Zerg has been quite fast to adapt to attacks. It rather baffles me for how long Terran players usually play inferior variations of their builds. I mean, Flash still plays hellbats over mines... talking about slow adaption.;-)
I guess I should say it typically takes longer for the defending race to learn how to defend a powerful all-in / timing consistently than it does for the aggressive race to use it frequently. Zerg just happens to be the race that is most often in a defending position.
When a race is forced into one particular opening every game, the other races gain an advantage because they can meta game that style.
This is what Terrans complained about forever when Protoss was strong.
Having to open Colossus every game is not just boring.. it's a strategic disadvantage.
This. Was going to post and spotted, didn't want people to think I felt T is too strong against Protoss ATM.
Aside from a few games, every macro game I see is some variant on opening with Blink/Collosus and zzzzzz
I'd love to see Templar first return to being an equally potent opening, without breaking things balance wise. Makes for better games, more skirmishes and more action. That's how those games pan out
Don't worry, I would say there are decent chances they come back spontaneously.
Tell that to PartinG. When the guy who practically invented the mass HT style vs T has a TL guide written about his Stalkers/Colossus, you know HT first is dead.
That's just bullshit. Parting has always been a very versatile player. Also, players change.
We've not seen a lot of Templar play, but it's still brought out in tournaments every now and then, so it is at least somewhat legit.
May I advise you to actually make a case for whatever you're trying to argue instead of rambling random complaints all the time?
To be honest TvP seems to follow really predictable script lately. Would be awesome to see HT play before the colossus snooze fest.
On October 07 2014 03:38 RaFox17 wrote: To be honest TvP seems to follow really predictable script lately. Would be awesome to see HT play before the colossus snooze fest.
Yes, it would be nice, but you're talking about a quality of life change rather than a balance change. If anything I wish somehow Collosi openings had been nerfed rather than the other way around, because I could really appreciate solid mid-game HT play and it made for fun and exciting games.
And it's not like we don't still see oracles / blink stalkers / dts / ect quite often. Even HT still crop up, they're just not a standard opening anymore.
edit: I wonder if the old 1 collosi into storm build will make a comeback? Force Terran to make vikings / not make mines, I think it has potential as a solid BoX strategy.
On October 07 2014 02:30 DinoMight wrote: That's the problem. Terran never thinks that Terran doesn't deserve to win. Especially vs P.
Really, I even said I think T looks too strong vZ atm. I just think it should be given more time. Looking at TvP match results and the way TvP plays out, I dont see many upsets (Zest losing to Flash, Bomber losing to Patience are the only two that come to mind) and the gameplay looks fairly balanced, if boring because Protoss are stuck opening Collosi again.
On October 07 2014 02:36 Big J wrote:I always ask myself where this myth comes from? Zerg has been quite fast to adapt to attacks. It rather baffles me for how long Terran players usually play inferior variations of their builds. I mean, Flash still plays hellbats over mines... talking about slow adaption.;-)
I guess I should say it typically takes longer for the defending race to learn how to defend a powerful all-in / timing consistently than it does for the aggressive race to use it frequently. Zerg just happens to be the race that is most often in a defending position.
When a race is forced into one particular opening every game, the other races gain an advantage because they can meta game that style.
This is what Terrans complained about forever when Protoss was strong.
Having to open Colossus every game is not just boring.. it's a strategic disadvantage.
This. Was going to post and spotted, didn't want people to think I felt T is too strong against Protoss ATM.
Aside from a few games, every macro game I see is some variant on opening with Blink/Collosus and zzzzzz
I'd love to see Templar first return to being an equally potent opening, without breaking things balance wise. Makes for better games, more skirmishes and more action. That's how those games pan out
Don't worry, I would say there are decent chances they come back spontaneously.
Tell that to PartinG. When the guy who practically invented the mass HT style vs T has a TL guide written about his Stalkers/Colossus, you know HT first is dead.
That's just bullshit. Parting has always been a very versatile player. Also, players change.
We've not seen a lot of Templar play, but it's still brought out in tournaments every now and then, so it is at least somewhat legit.
May I advise you to actually make a case for whatever you're trying to argue instead of rambling random complaints all the time?
HT play is dead. As in we don't see it anymore. What else do you want me to add to that? Links to nonexistant VODs of Templar play? I was just saying that the biggest sign of that style's decline is that it's chief architect has moved on to something totally different, and has been playing that style for long enough that TL had time to write a guide about it!
Sure, HT comes out from time to time at the pro level, but so do Carriers. And mech vs. P.
On October 07 2014 02:30 DinoMight wrote: That's the problem. Terran never thinks that Terran doesn't deserve to win. Especially vs P.
Really, I even said I think T looks too strong vZ atm. I just think it should be given more time. Looking at TvP match results and the way TvP plays out, I dont see many upsets (Zest losing to Flash, Bomber losing to Patience are the only two that come to mind) and the gameplay looks fairly balanced, if boring because Protoss are stuck opening Collosi again.
On October 07 2014 02:36 Big J wrote:I always ask myself where this myth comes from? Zerg has been quite fast to adapt to attacks. It rather baffles me for how long Terran players usually play inferior variations of their builds. I mean, Flash still plays hellbats over mines... talking about slow adaption.;-)
I guess I should say it typically takes longer for the defending race to learn how to defend a powerful all-in / timing consistently than it does for the aggressive race to use it frequently. Zerg just happens to be the race that is most often in a defending position.
When a race is forced into one particular opening every game, the other races gain an advantage because they can meta game that style.
This is what Terrans complained about forever when Protoss was strong.
Having to open Colossus every game is not just boring.. it's a strategic disadvantage.
This. Was going to post and spotted, didn't want people to think I felt T is too strong against Protoss ATM.
Aside from a few games, every macro game I see is some variant on opening with Blink/Collosus and zzzzzz
I'd love to see Templar first return to being an equally potent opening, without breaking things balance wise. Makes for better games, more skirmishes and more action. That's how those games pan out
Don't worry, I would say there are decent chances they come back spontaneously.
Tell that to PartinG. When the guy who practically invented the mass HT style vs T has a TL guide written about his Stalkers/Colossus, you know HT first is dead.
Yeah, I hear that since March 2014 the 2nd, when Protoss on ladder went from 80+% to ~10% Templar opening in the span of a few hours, probably based on the overwhelming evidence of a ladder day. Must also be why we actually see more Templar openings at top Korean level since Mines do 40+40 vs shields in a full 1.75 radius compared with the days they had 40+40 | 20+20 | 10+10.
On October 07 2014 03:38 RaFox17 wrote: To be honest TvP seems to follow really predictable script lately. Would be awesome to see HT play before the colossus snooze fest.
Yes, it would be nice, but you're talking about a quality of life change rather than a balance change. If anything I wish somehow Collosi openings had been nerfed rather than the other way around, because I could really appreciate solid mid-game HT play and it made for fun and exciting games.
And it's not like we don't still see oracles / blink stalkers / dts / ect quite often. Even HT still crop up, they're just not a standard opening anymore.
edit: I wonder if the old 1 collosi into storm build will make a comeback? Force Terran to make vikings / not make mines, I think it has potential as a solid BoX strategy.
1 Colo gets ripped apart by Maru style. There just isn't enough splash on the field to deal with the constant aggression, and the 1 Colo can only be in one place at a time. Haven't seen anyone do that in a while.
On October 07 2014 02:30 DinoMight wrote: That's the problem. Terran never thinks that Terran doesn't deserve to win. Especially vs P.
Really, I even said I think T looks too strong vZ atm. I just think it should be given more time. Looking at TvP match results and the way TvP plays out, I dont see many upsets (Zest losing to Flash, Bomber losing to Patience are the only two that come to mind) and the gameplay looks fairly balanced, if boring because Protoss are stuck opening Collosi again.
On October 07 2014 02:36 Big J wrote:I always ask myself where this myth comes from? Zerg has been quite fast to adapt to attacks. It rather baffles me for how long Terran players usually play inferior variations of their builds. I mean, Flash still plays hellbats over mines... talking about slow adaption.;-)
I guess I should say it typically takes longer for the defending race to learn how to defend a powerful all-in / timing consistently than it does for the aggressive race to use it frequently. Zerg just happens to be the race that is most often in a defending position.
When a race is forced into one particular opening every game, the other races gain an advantage because they can meta game that style.
This is what Terrans complained about forever when Protoss was strong.
Having to open Colossus every game is not just boring.. it's a strategic disadvantage.
This. Was going to post and spotted, didn't want people to think I felt T is too strong against Protoss ATM.
Aside from a few games, every macro game I see is some variant on opening with Blink/Collosus and zzzzzz
I'd love to see Templar first return to being an equally potent opening, without breaking things balance wise. Makes for better games, more skirmishes and more action. That's how those games pan out
Don't worry, I would say there are decent chances they come back spontaneously.
Tell that to PartinG. When the guy who practically invented the mass HT style vs T has a TL guide written about his Stalkers/Colossus, you know HT first is dead.
That's just bullshit. Parting has always been a very versatile player. Also, players change.
We've not seen a lot of Templar play, but it's still brought out in tournaments every now and then, so it is at least somewhat legit.
May I advise you to actually make a case for whatever you're trying to argue instead of rambling random complaints all the time?
HT play is dead. As in we don't see it anymore. What else do you want me to add to that? Links to nonexistant VODs of Templar play? I was just saying that the biggest sign of that style's decline is that it's chief architect has moved on to something totally different, and has been playing that style for long enough that TL had time to write a guide about it!
Sure, HT comes out from time to time at the pro level, but so do Carriers. And mech vs. P.
Flash, the best mech TvZ in the world, completely stopped playing mech without anything particular happening to the style.
As for non-existant VODs
I don't know where exactly the current viability lies, but it's certainly not "dead," and I'm ready to bet it will make a resurgence of its own in the next weeks/months.
On October 07 2014 03:45 DinoMight wrote: HT play is dead. As in we don't see it anymore. What else do you want me to add to that? Links to nonexistant VODs of Templar play? I was just saying that the biggest sign of that style's decline is that it's chief architect has moved on to something totally different, and has been playing that style for long enough that TL had time to write a guide about it!
Sure, HT comes out from time to time at the pro level, but so do Carriers. And mech vs. P.
Templar comes out way more frequently than mech. Offhand I can think of two mech games, and more than 6 Templar openings. I'll bet templar has a higher winrate than mech as well.
Protoss lost an opening, and that kind of sucks. On the other hand, having all those options available was clearly too strong. That's why it got nerfed in the first place.
If you want Templar openings to be as viable as they once were, there will have to be additional changes to keep things in line.
On October 07 2014 03:45 DinoMight wrote: HT play is dead. As in we don't see it anymore. What else do you want me to add to that? Links to nonexistant VODs of Templar play? I was just saying that the biggest sign of that style's decline is that it's chief architect has moved on to something totally different, and has been playing that style for long enough that TL had time to write a guide about it!
Sure, HT comes out from time to time at the pro level, but so do Carriers. And mech vs. P.
Templar comes out way more frequently than mech. Offhand I can think of two mech games, and more than 6 Templar openings. I'll bet templar has a higher winrate than mech as well.
Protoss lost an opening, and that kind of sucks. On the other hand, having all those options available was clearly too strong. That's why it got nerfed in the first place.
If you want Templar openings to be as viable as they once were, there will have to be additional changes to keep things in line.
it's true that protoss doesn't have as much options as before but the same can be said about terran. every game is either reaper expand into 3 rax stim medivac timing or a widow mine drop. protoss has at least a few allins to mix things up but terran has nothing. every game they have to do the same opening again and again. That said i still support a + shield damage revert of the widow mine, not because of balance but because templar openings are just far more entertaining to watch and to play than the collossus "turtle to 200/200 then amove across the map and win" style. But in exchange for that terran should get more options as well. What i would like to see is a removement of the ebay requirement for turrets so terran can more easily prepare for oracles. Many builds just aren't viable because of the threat that an oracle flies in and kills every scv, so with this change they can just throw down a turret if they guess oracles are coming and be fine.
On October 07 2014 02:30 DinoMight wrote: That's the problem. Terran never thinks that Terran doesn't deserve to win. Especially vs P.
Really, I even said I think T looks too strong vZ atm. I just think it should be given more time. Looking at TvP match results and the way TvP plays out, I dont see many upsets (Zest losing to Flash, Bomber losing to Patience are the only two that come to mind) and the gameplay looks fairly balanced, if boring because Protoss are stuck opening Collosi again.
On October 07 2014 02:36 Big J wrote:I always ask myself where this myth comes from? Zerg has been quite fast to adapt to attacks. It rather baffles me for how long Terran players usually play inferior variations of their builds. I mean, Flash still plays hellbats over mines... talking about slow adaption.;-)
I guess I should say it typically takes longer for the defending race to learn how to defend a powerful all-in / timing consistently than it does for the aggressive race to use it frequently. Zerg just happens to be the race that is most often in a defending position.
When a race is forced into one particular opening every game, the other races gain an advantage because they can meta game that style.
This is what Terrans complained about forever when Protoss was strong.
Having to open Colossus every game is not just boring.. it's a strategic disadvantage.
This. Was going to post and spotted, didn't want people to think I felt T is too strong against Protoss ATM.
Aside from a few games, every macro game I see is some variant on opening with Blink/Collosus and zzzzzz
I'd love to see Templar first return to being an equally potent opening, without breaking things balance wise. Makes for better games, more skirmishes and more action. That's how those games pan out
Don't worry, I would say there are decent chances they come back spontaneously.
Tell that to PartinG. When the guy who practically invented the mass HT style vs T has a TL guide written about his Stalkers/Colossus, you know HT first is dead.
That's just bullshit. Parting has always been a very versatile player. Also, players change.
We've not seen a lot of Templar play, but it's still brought out in tournaments every now and then, so it is at least somewhat legit.
May I advise you to actually make a case for whatever you're trying to argue instead of rambling random complaints all the time?
HT play is dead. As in we don't see it anymore. What else do you want me to add to that? Links to nonexistant VODs of Templar play? I was just saying that the biggest sign of that style's decline is that it's chief architect has moved on to something totally different, and has been playing that style for long enough that TL had time to write a guide about it!
Sure, HT comes out from time to time at the pro level, but so do Carriers. And mech vs. P.
Flash, the best mech TvZ in the world, completely stopped playing mech without anything particular happening to the style.
I don't know where exactly the current viability lies, but it's certainly not "dead," and I'm ready to bet it will make a resurgence of its own in the next weeks/months.
People DO go Templar from time to time but the mine has significantly reduced the viability of it as 'standard play.' HT play is now a coinflip that your opponent will blind counter Colos rather than something you can just do every game safely.
That's the point I'm trying to make. Sometimes it works and sometimes the Terran just so happens to be going for a mines and you're fucked.
On October 07 2014 02:30 DinoMight wrote: That's the problem. Terran never thinks that Terran doesn't deserve to win. Especially vs P.
Really, I even said I think T looks too strong vZ atm. I just think it should be given more time. Looking at TvP match results and the way TvP plays out, I dont see many upsets (Zest losing to Flash, Bomber losing to Patience are the only two that come to mind) and the gameplay looks fairly balanced, if boring because Protoss are stuck opening Collosi again.
On October 07 2014 02:36 Big J wrote:I always ask myself where this myth comes from? Zerg has been quite fast to adapt to attacks. It rather baffles me for how long Terran players usually play inferior variations of their builds. I mean, Flash still plays hellbats over mines... talking about slow adaption.;-)
I guess I should say it typically takes longer for the defending race to learn how to defend a powerful all-in / timing consistently than it does for the aggressive race to use it frequently. Zerg just happens to be the race that is most often in a defending position.
When a race is forced into one particular opening every game, the other races gain an advantage because they can meta game that style.
This is what Terrans complained about forever when Protoss was strong.
Having to open Colossus every game is not just boring.. it's a strategic disadvantage.
This. Was going to post and spotted, didn't want people to think I felt T is too strong against Protoss ATM.
Aside from a few games, every macro game I see is some variant on opening with Blink/Collosus and zzzzzz
I'd love to see Templar first return to being an equally potent opening, without breaking things balance wise. Makes for better games, more skirmishes and more action. That's how those games pan out
Don't worry, I would say there are decent chances they come back spontaneously.
Tell that to PartinG. When the guy who practically invented the mass HT style vs T has a TL guide written about his Stalkers/Colossus, you know HT first is dead.
That's just bullshit. Parting has always been a very versatile player. Also, players change.
We've not seen a lot of Templar play, but it's still brought out in tournaments every now and then, so it is at least somewhat legit.
May I advise you to actually make a case for whatever you're trying to argue instead of rambling random complaints all the time?
HT play is dead. As in we don't see it anymore. What else do you want me to add to that? Links to nonexistant VODs of Templar play? I was just saying that the biggest sign of that style's decline is that it's chief architect has moved on to something totally different, and has been playing that style for long enough that TL had time to write a guide about it!
Sure, HT comes out from time to time at the pro level, but so do Carriers. And mech vs. P.
Flash, the best mech TvZ in the world, completely stopped playing mech without anything particular happening to the style.
I don't know where exactly the current viability lies, but it's certainly not "dead," and I'm ready to bet it will make a resurgence of its own in the next weeks/months.
People DO go Templar from time to time but the mine has significantly reduced the viability of it as 'standard play.' HT play is now a coinflip that your opponent will blind counter Colos rather than something you can just do every game safely.
That's the point I'm trying to make. Sometimes it works and sometimes the Terran just so happens to be going for a mines and you're fucked.
Really, I even said I think T looks too strong vZ atm. I just think it should be given more time. Looking at TvP match results and the way TvP plays out, I dont see many upsets (Zest losing to Flash, Bomber losing to Patience are the only two that come to mind) and the gameplay looks fairly balanced, if boring because Protoss are stuck opening Collosi again.
[quote]
I guess I should say it typically takes longer for the defending race to learn how to defend a powerful all-in / timing consistently than it does for the aggressive race to use it frequently. Zerg just happens to be the race that is most often in a defending position.
When a race is forced into one particular opening every game, the other races gain an advantage because they can meta game that style.
This is what Terrans complained about forever when Protoss was strong.
Having to open Colossus every game is not just boring.. it's a strategic disadvantage.
This. Was going to post and spotted, didn't want people to think I felt T is too strong against Protoss ATM.
Aside from a few games, every macro game I see is some variant on opening with Blink/Collosus and zzzzzz
I'd love to see Templar first return to being an equally potent opening, without breaking things balance wise. Makes for better games, more skirmishes and more action. That's how those games pan out
Don't worry, I would say there are decent chances they come back spontaneously.
Tell that to PartinG. When the guy who practically invented the mass HT style vs T has a TL guide written about his Stalkers/Colossus, you know HT first is dead.
That's just bullshit. Parting has always been a very versatile player. Also, players change.
We've not seen a lot of Templar play, but it's still brought out in tournaments every now and then, so it is at least somewhat legit.
May I advise you to actually make a case for whatever you're trying to argue instead of rambling random complaints all the time?
HT play is dead. As in we don't see it anymore. What else do you want me to add to that? Links to nonexistant VODs of Templar play? I was just saying that the biggest sign of that style's decline is that it's chief architect has moved on to something totally different, and has been playing that style for long enough that TL had time to write a guide about it!
Sure, HT comes out from time to time at the pro level, but so do Carriers. And mech vs. P.
Flash, the best mech TvZ in the world, completely stopped playing mech without anything particular happening to the style.
I don't know where exactly the current viability lies, but it's certainly not "dead," and I'm ready to bet it will make a resurgence of its own in the next weeks/months.
People DO go Templar from time to time but the mine has significantly reduced the viability of it as 'standard play.' HT play is now a coinflip that your opponent will blind counter Colos rather than something you can just do every game safely.
That's the point I'm trying to make. Sometimes it works and sometimes the Terran just so happens to be going for a mines and you're fucked.
When a race is forced into one particular opening every game, the other races gain an advantage because they can meta game that style.
This is what Terrans complained about forever when Protoss was strong.
Having to open Colossus every game is not just boring.. it's a strategic disadvantage.
This. Was going to post and spotted, didn't want people to think I felt T is too strong against Protoss ATM.
Aside from a few games, every macro game I see is some variant on opening with Blink/Collosus and zzzzzz
I'd love to see Templar first return to being an equally potent opening, without breaking things balance wise. Makes for better games, more skirmishes and more action. That's how those games pan out
Don't worry, I would say there are decent chances they come back spontaneously.
Tell that to PartinG. When the guy who practically invented the mass HT style vs T has a TL guide written about his Stalkers/Colossus, you know HT first is dead.
That's just bullshit. Parting has always been a very versatile player. Also, players change.
We've not seen a lot of Templar play, but it's still brought out in tournaments every now and then, so it is at least somewhat legit.
May I advise you to actually make a case for whatever you're trying to argue instead of rambling random complaints all the time?
HT play is dead. As in we don't see it anymore. What else do you want me to add to that? Links to nonexistant VODs of Templar play? I was just saying that the biggest sign of that style's decline is that it's chief architect has moved on to something totally different, and has been playing that style for long enough that TL had time to write a guide about it!
Sure, HT comes out from time to time at the pro level, but so do Carriers. And mech vs. P.
Flash, the best mech TvZ in the world, completely stopped playing mech without anything particular happening to the style.
I don't know where exactly the current viability lies, but it's certainly not "dead," and I'm ready to bet it will make a resurgence of its own in the next weeks/months.
People DO go Templar from time to time but the mine has significantly reduced the viability of it as 'standard play.' HT play is now a coinflip that your opponent will blind counter Colos rather than something you can just do every game safely.
That's the point I'm trying to make. Sometimes it works and sometimes the Terran just so happens to be going for a mines and you're fucked.
That's not at all what some of those VODs show.
Dino. You know what beats mines? Micro.
Sigh. Okay you're right. HT openers are totally commonplace nowadays and the mine change has not affected that build at all.
On October 07 2014 00:44 Lexender wrote: To be honest I like the state of the game as it is right know, when the MULE/Warpgate/Larvae are the things being discussed you know the balance is ok because those are the things that are not going to be changed pretty much never.
Weeellll... hold your horses there. Terran is looking pretty pretty pretty strong at the moment...
Perhaps but you can make that case on behalf of Hellbat/WM/Map pool
MULEs on the other hand.
Well I was just trying to say that discussing MULES doesn't imply the rest of the game isn't broken. Given the current map pool, widow mines, and hellbats, I don't think a Terran can lose a Bo5+ unless his opponent is much better.
Innovation is like the perfect Terran imbarometer. His win rates rise and fall in perfect correlation with Terran patches.
As evidenced by this or this? Patch 1.4.3 was such a heaven for Terran...
I wasn't only referring to TvP. And a lot of these have clear favorites.
Can't you guys take a joke? Come on.. I thought "imbarometer" was pretty clever. Say what you will, but he was great - then they nerfed widow mines and hellbats and he became not so great, then they re-buffed both those things and he won the GSL.
Lately T is quite strong and I think it's dishonest to ignore that...
Yeah, maybe because Innovation is a great player who was unfairly hampered by the nerf patch and is now finally playing on an even playing field again? Wow, big deal, Inno and MMA won some tournaments, bomber too. Its not like we had a long list of 10 different protoss 'champions' one after the other after the other to start the year off for 6 entire months? At least these terran champions have been champions throughout such a large amount of different patches and are more than proven to be among the world's best players. Maybe come back when a bunch of random terrans start winning anything.
This argument is really shallow, as it undermines any new talent. It also disregards the fact that most of the Protoss champions had actually proven themselves to be the most dominant players in a higher a more difficult setting, prior to going overseas and winning all those tournaments, which were arguably easier.
On October 07 2014 02:11 Wombat_NI wrote: Terran IS looking pretty strong ATM mind, especially in TvP (from the games I've watched which don't include every game obviously)
Really? We must be watching very different games, I haven't seen a TvP recently where the win looked undeserved (from either side) recently, whereas with TvZ I think Terran might be a little too strong atm. But mostly because of timings / ect that are still being figured out, Z has always taken the longest to adapt to new all-ins / timings.
I always ask myself where this myth comes from? Zerg has been quite fast to adapt to attacks. It rather baffles me for how long Terran players usually play inferior variations of their builds. I mean, Flash still plays hellbats over mines... talking about slow adaption.;-)
You might have a point about Terran being slow to adapt, I tried to argue that, but got promptly rejected. The slow zerg myth comes from the time when Zerg played Roach-Hydra-Corrupter against Stalker-Colossus for like one and a half year, and cried imbatoss for most of that time. Turns out, without much change to zerg, they found ways to actually be at least just as good as protoss, if not better, after Stephano started his successful spree, ushering the age of BL Infestor and patchzerg namecalling.
Everyone knew roach hydra was shit.ther just wasnt anything else. Zergs were right and rightfully cried for maps where they could take fast thirds. That was the change. (And it basically broke PvZ in the other direction until Ps adapted) long before stephano
On October 07 2014 02:30 DinoMight wrote: That's the problem. Terran never thinks that Terran doesn't deserve to win. Especially vs P.
Really, I even said I think T looks too strong vZ atm. I just think it should be given more time. Looking at TvP match results and the way TvP plays out, I dont see many upsets (Zest losing to Flash, Bomber losing to Patience are the only two that come to mind) and the gameplay looks fairly balanced, if boring because Protoss are stuck opening Collosi again.
On October 07 2014 02:36 Big J wrote:I always ask myself where this myth comes from? Zerg has been quite fast to adapt to attacks. It rather baffles me for how long Terran players usually play inferior variations of their builds. I mean, Flash still plays hellbats over mines... talking about slow adaption.;-)
I guess I should say it typically takes longer for the defending race to learn how to defend a powerful all-in / timing consistently than it does for the aggressive race to use it frequently. Zerg just happens to be the race that is most often in a defending position.
When a race is forced into one particular opening every game, the other races gain an advantage because they can meta game that style.
This is what Terrans complained about forever when Protoss was strong.
Having to open Colossus every game is not just boring.. it's a strategic disadvantage.
This. Was going to post and spotted, didn't want people to think I felt T is too strong against Protoss ATM.
Aside from a few games, every macro game I see is some variant on opening with Blink/Collosus and zzzzzz
I'd love to see Templar first return to being an equally potent opening, without breaking things balance wise. Makes for better games, more skirmishes and more action. That's how those games pan out
Don't worry, I would say there are decent chances they come back spontaneously.
Tell that to PartinG. When the guy who practically invented the mass HT style vs T has a TL guide written about his Stalkers/Colossus, you know HT first is dead.
That's just bullshit. Parting has always been a very versatile player. Also, players change.
We've not seen a lot of Templar play, but it's still brought out in tournaments every now and then, so it is at least somewhat legit.
May I advise you to actually make a case for whatever you're trying to argue instead of rambling random complaints all the time?
HT play is dead. As in we don't see it anymore. What else do you want me to add to that? Links to nonexistant VODs of Templar play? I was just saying that the biggest sign of that style's decline is that it's chief architect has moved on to something totally different, and has been playing that style for long enough that TL had time to write a guide about it!
Sure, HT comes out from time to time at the pro level, but so do Carriers. And mech vs. P.
I don't believe this, seriously.
Sure templar openers lost, but the lack of options in the game are not the fault of the terran, its not that if we nerf the WM the MU will be in a magical state of perfection.
How about tanks that don't suck? Hellbats that are useful for actually something? Sky terran, no?
The game IS better, protoss still has 1 and 2 base pressure builds and all-ins, like openening 2stalker-Msc or zealot/stalker/Msc preassure, oracles, proxied or not, Phoenix/colo, I've actually seen Tempest used in profesional play and be sucesfull. On the hand Terrans adapted to PO, proxy builds (rax or fact) work, gas first builds are still used largely, reactored hellion off 1 or 2 bases, using WM drops with 2 base builds (Cure and Fantasy do this) even the 1-1-1 is somewhat back.
But the problema for the MU is not only from the Terran persepective, you ask for HT openers only because of the recent WM. Terrans have been asking for mech since WoL.
On October 07 2014 03:20 Wombat_NI wrote: [quote] This. Was going to post and spotted, didn't want people to think I felt T is too strong against Protoss ATM.
Aside from a few games, every macro game I see is some variant on opening with Blink/Collosus and zzzzzz
I'd love to see Templar first return to being an equally potent opening, without breaking things balance wise. Makes for better games, more skirmishes and more action. That's how those games pan out
Don't worry, I would say there are decent chances they come back spontaneously.
Tell that to PartinG. When the guy who practically invented the mass HT style vs T has a TL guide written about his Stalkers/Colossus, you know HT first is dead.
That's just bullshit. Parting has always been a very versatile player. Also, players change.
We've not seen a lot of Templar play, but it's still brought out in tournaments every now and then, so it is at least somewhat legit.
May I advise you to actually make a case for whatever you're trying to argue instead of rambling random complaints all the time?
HT play is dead. As in we don't see it anymore. What else do you want me to add to that? Links to nonexistant VODs of Templar play? I was just saying that the biggest sign of that style's decline is that it's chief architect has moved on to something totally different, and has been playing that style for long enough that TL had time to write a guide about it!
Sure, HT comes out from time to time at the pro level, but so do Carriers. And mech vs. P.
Flash, the best mech TvZ in the world, completely stopped playing mech without anything particular happening to the style.
I don't know where exactly the current viability lies, but it's certainly not "dead," and I'm ready to bet it will make a resurgence of its own in the next weeks/months.
People DO go Templar from time to time but the mine has significantly reduced the viability of it as 'standard play.' HT play is now a coinflip that your opponent will blind counter Colos rather than something you can just do every game safely.
That's the point I'm trying to make. Sometimes it works and sometimes the Terran just so happens to be going for a mines and you're fucked.
That's not at all what some of those VODs show.
Dino. You know what beats mines? Micro.
Sigh. Okay you're right. HT openers are totally commonplace nowadays and the mine change has not affected that build at all.
Why do you have to take everything into extremes?
No, HT openers are not totally commonplace, nobody said that.
Nobody said the mine change didn't affect it either.
You're assaulting people based on imaginary statements and failing to bring anything constructive to the discussion at every possibility.
What is it you are after? Should we all man up and admit Protoss is UP and Templar are UP and the daed gaem rubbish?
sad to see zvt being in such a bad state just because Z scouting options are such a mess with 1 marine denying vision or ovis not even being in place to scout on bigger maps while ovispeed is WAY too expensive. no way you have enough gas for lingspeed, ovispeed and roaches to hold of the possible hellbat push. there are just way too many unscoutable options for T right now.
On October 07 2014 06:00 Decendos wrote: sad to see zvt being in such a bad state just because Z scouting options are such a mess with 1 marine denying vision or ovis not even being in place to scout on bigger maps while ovispeed is WAY too expensive. no way you have enough gas for lingspeed, ovispeed and roaches to hold of the possible hellbat push. there are just way too many unscoutable options for T right now.
While I agree Zerg may be struggling a bit in the later stages of the game, this is not the reason. 1 Marines doesn't deny scouting as you should have 2 overlords and scouts at the front. You can still poke in a little bit or opt to suicide an overlord.
You want to solve the mine/templar problem? 1) Lower mine Hp to 75, so it CANNOT go through storm and kill the army. Give the storm +20 shield damage(distributed through those 4 seconds) as a trade off. This way we give a HUGE change to PvP(no more war of words or immo/archon), we slightly nerf templars in PvT(chargelots will die a little bit faster). We can tweak somehow the armor of mine so it survives longer in TvZ(benefits mine from armor upgrades?) or 2) Storm receives +20 dmg to burrowed units. It is kinda iffy, but the biggest problems with mines = you cannot kill them with templar tech, you need "some" stalkers or immortals. (roaches regen so fast they may not notice :D)
Also some "invisibility" upgrade against scan to observer would be nice(raven/turret would see it all). Maybe from cyber core once templar archives are on, 100/100/60? Or we can return observatory with speed/vision/cloak upgrades...
Also a thinking over the map pool would be nice, so it is race neutral...
On October 07 2014 00:44 Lexender wrote: To be honest I like the state of the game as it is right know, when the MULE/Warpgate/Larvae are the things being discussed you know the balance is ok because those are the things that are not going to be changed pretty much never.
Weeellll... hold your horses there. Terran is looking pretty pretty pretty strong at the moment...
Perhaps but you can make that case on behalf of Hellbat/WM/Map pool
MULEs on the other hand.
Well I was just trying to say that discussing MULES doesn't imply the rest of the game isn't broken. Given the current map pool, widow mines, and hellbats, I don't think a Terran can lose a Bo5+ unless his opponent is much better.
Innovation is like the perfect Terran imbarometer. His win rates rise and fall in perfect correlation with Terran patches.
As evidenced by this or this? Patch 1.4.3 was such a heaven for Terran...
I wasn't only referring to TvP. And a lot of these have clear favorites.
Can't you guys take a joke? Come on.. I thought "imbarometer" was pretty clever. Say what you will, but he was great - then they nerfed widow mines and hellbats and he became not so great, then they re-buffed both those things and he won the GSL.
Lately T is quite strong and I think it's dishonest to ignore that...
Yeah, maybe because Innovation is a great player who was unfairly hampered by the nerf patch and is now finally playing on an even playing field again? Wow, big deal, Inno and MMA won some tournaments, bomber too. Its not like we had a long list of 10 different protoss 'champions' one after the other after the other to start the year off for 6 entire months? At least these terran champions have been champions throughout such a large amount of different patches and are more than proven to be among the world's best players. Maybe come back when a bunch of random terrans start winning anything.
This argument is really shallow, as it undermines any new talent. It also disregards the fact that most of the Protoss champions had actually proven themselves to be the most dominant players in a higher a more difficult setting, prior to going overseas and winning all those tournaments, which were arguably easier.
On October 07 2014 02:11 Wombat_NI wrote: Terran IS looking pretty strong ATM mind, especially in TvP (from the games I've watched which don't include every game obviously)
Really? We must be watching very different games, I haven't seen a TvP recently where the win looked undeserved (from either side) recently, whereas with TvZ I think Terran might be a little too strong atm. But mostly because of timings / ect that are still being figured out, Z has always taken the longest to adapt to new all-ins / timings.
I always ask myself where this myth comes from? Zerg has been quite fast to adapt to attacks. It rather baffles me for how long Terran players usually play inferior variations of their builds. I mean, Flash still plays hellbats over mines... talking about slow adaption.;-)
You might have a point about Terran being slow to adapt, I tried to argue that, but got promptly rejected. The slow zerg myth comes from the time when Zerg played Roach-Hydra-Corrupter against Stalker-Colossus for like one and a half year, and cried imbatoss for most of that time. Turns out, without much change to zerg, they found ways to actually be at least just as good as protoss, if not better, after Stephano started his successful spree, ushering the age of BL Infestor and patchzerg namecalling.
Everyone knew roach hydra was shit.ther just wasnt anything else. Zergs were right and rightfully cried for maps where they could take fast thirds. That was the change. (And it basically broke PvZ in the other direction until Ps adapted) long before stephano
I don't think I've ever felt that Protoss was ever underpowered against Zerg. People always at the time thinks that they do everything possible, that there is never anything they can do to adapt, and therefore always resort to balance whine. I've felt that in hindsight, one could often realise that it was possible to play their race better. But it doesn't seem like that sentiment is very accepted.
EPT
