EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 1129
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Extenz
Italy822 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25081 Posts
On October 07 2014 07:33 Extenz wrote: If terran players spent the time they spend whining actually playing the game we would have many foreigner hopes. Oh STFU, all but two of your posts in this threads are ridiculous whines against Terrans or digs at Terran players. | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On October 07 2014 03:45 DinoMight wrote: HT play is dead. As in we don't see it anymore. What else do you want me to add to that? Links to nonexistant VODs of Templar play? Is a very different argument from On October 07 2014 07:05 DinoMight wrote: I should have been more specific. HT used to be viable as a standard opening pre- widow mine buff. It is no longer the case. The reason is that mines are so effective against Zealots that you can't defend your bases and you fall behind economically. So I said that HT openings had died. Not as in "literally they are used zero times" but as in "they used to be a standard opener, now they happen much less frequently." Nobody is arguing HT play is standard or just as strong as it was pre mine nerf. It was being argued that Protoss are still playing it, and TheDwf is of the opinion that it will become more common in the metagame in the coming weeks/months. Say what you mean, dont use hyperbole to make a point then backtrack and 'explain what you really meant' only after you're proven wrong. On October 07 2014 07:09 Wombat_NI wrote: I don't know, I think people are all round being ridiculous in this thread. Do we have to take everything absolutely literally? Dino clearly did not mean you never see Templar first anymore, ever, ever. It's just the kind of silly nitpicking that is blighting this thread. Look at the first quote. It's not nitpicking, he's simply wrong. A Templar based mid game might not be standard, but it's definitely usable in a BoX, which is all TheDwf was saying, and he backed it up with proof. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On October 07 2014 07:42 Pursuit_ wrote: Look at the first quote. It's not nitpicking, he's simply wrong. A Templar based mid game might not be standard, but it's definitely usable in a BoX, which is all TheDwf was saying, and he backed it up with proof. All TheDwf proved is that you can, indeed, create the unit "High Templar" in a game of professional StarCraft2 and attempt to win with it. By this definition Oracle/Immortal is a viable composition as well. So is mech vs. Protoss. He then gave 6 examples of games in which the Protoss used a HT opening and only one of them is actually a good example of it being "viable." The problem with this thread is everyone takes everything way too literally to the point where it becomes impractical to even try to speak like a normal human being. This is a forum, not a PHD dissertation. The fact that he posted links to 6 YouTube videos doesn't make him right and me wrong. In fact, the videos he posted highlight the exact point I'm trying to make. HT openings are, effectively, not usable as standard play. In the matches he posted where game-ending mistakes are not made (will skip the SoS game and the ridiculous failed doom drop) this strategy of opening HT into Colossus went 1-4. In these games, you can see that Terran steadily gains an economic advantage and ends up with way more stuff at the end. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
Also, trying to defend yourself by claiming to be taken too literally is undermined if you then proceed to make the very same point. Your claim that HT openers are unviable is just born out. You try to claim less but implicate more, then act hurt when people call you out on it. Well, HT openers are not unviable to the extent that mech is unviable. And mech isn't as unviable as it was a few years ago. HT openers not being dead is seen in the games that Downfall pointed out, and also from other pros using it WCS events trying to win. Importantly, this also means that the builds do work in practice. But it also demonstrates that the game is in flux. People are still experimenting and it doesn't make sense to call it quits. Many viable openers took a long time to refine after a patch. Also, as someone pointed out, the WM change is interesting because one can micro against WM. During the blink era it took P a long time to learn to blink out of WM shots, after this skill was mastered the all-in became much more dangerous. Similar tricks will probably be developed against WM with HT openers. Perhaps they will, but only time will tell. P.S. It's Ph.D (or PhD). | ||
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johnbongham
451 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 07 2014 22:04 johnbongham wrote: If the best balance whine toss players can come up with is 'boohoo HT openers are dead' than lol. What options do terrans have? Make bio and then make ghost for HT or make bio and then make viking for coll? Dont forget that it is the terran's responsibility to react to whatever the protoss decides to make and not the other way around. Hell, if terrans doesnt identify that you are opening HT there is always the possiblity he doesnt make any mines. Like, you got to be seriously kidding me if you think that on the ladder a protoss player cant open HT and win the game. Sure it may be harder initially but its def not impossible. How is this even being discussed? Should we start with the 'boohoo no mech in PvT" whine too because thats been the case for, i dunno, since sc2 was released? you gotta be kidding me? Start? Really??? START??? | ||
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johnbongham
451 Posts
On October 07 2014 22:06 Big J wrote: you gotta be kidding me? Start? Really??? START??? Lol, so then you understand what I am trying to say. At the very least, both coll and HT whether part of your opener or not, each appear in most PvT games eventually. Nobody stays on coll forever. Both are extremely effective in the late game. In fact, what unit does protoss even have that is not viable in pvt? Maybe void ray? I seriously dont know, but an entire tech tree for terran is not viable in TvP, and that is a much bigger issue than the difficulties players face opening HT. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
On October 07 2014 22:08 johnbongham wrote: Lol, so then you understand what I am trying to say. At the very least, both coll and HT whether part of your opener or not, each appear in most PvT games eventually. Nobody stays on coll forever. Both are extremely effective in the late game. In fact, what unit does protoss even have that is not viable in pvt? Maybe void ray? I seriously dont know, but an entire tech tree for terran is not viable in TvP, and that is a much bigger issue than the difficulties players face opening HT. Protoss needs Colossus or HT or we die to your Tier 1 unit. It's not a luxury... Protoss units are actually incapable of fighting Terran bio without splash after Medivacs are out. So you could say that Protoss has to build 1 of 2 units otherwise it dies to Marines. If you know in advance which I'm going to build (because one isn't really viable) it's a huge advantage. You only need to make Ghosts or Vikings IF Protoss makes Colo or HT. | ||
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Meavis
Netherlands1300 Posts
On October 07 2014 22:23 DinoMight wrote: If you know in advance which I'm going to build (because one isn't really viable) it's a huge advantage. You only need to make Ghosts or Vikings IF Protoss makes Colo or HT. the same advantage protoss always had? boy I'm wondering which reaper in to bio build this terran is going to do. | ||
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Enigmasc
United Kingdom147 Posts
On October 07 2014 22:08 johnbongham wrote: Lol, so then you understand what I am trying to say. At the very least, both coll and HT whether part of your opener or not, each appear in most PvT games eventually. Nobody stays on coll forever. Both are extremely effective in the late game. In fact, what unit does protoss even have that is not viable in pvt? Maybe void ray? I seriously dont know, but an entire tech tree for terran is not viable in TvP, and that is a much bigger issue than the difficulties players face opening HT. i sincerely hope that this is trolling tbh back on topic i do think it is sad that HT opening are so bad atm, there definatly a lot more fun to watch than collosus openings and give each player more room to outplay there opponent, that being said the mine buff has not only hellped out vs allins but given terran some aggressive options earlyagme which makes for more variety on that side so i guess its kinda even honestly the ideal situation would be if terran had aggressive options/ help vs allins but toss players could have some more macro options rather than just a choice of collosus with/ withought forges | ||
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johnbongham
451 Posts
On October 07 2014 22:23 DinoMight wrote: Protoss needs Colossus or HT or we die to your Tier 1 unit. It's not a luxury... Protoss units are actually incapable of fighting Terran bio without splash after Medivacs are out. So you could say that Protoss has to build 1 of 2 units otherwise it dies to Marines. If you know in advance which I'm going to build (because one isn't really viable) it's a huge advantage. You only need to make Ghosts or Vikings IF Protoss makes Colo or HT. And.....your point is? You just admit that you KNOW 99% of terrans are going to go bio. Isn't that the same thing you just complained about? Am I missing a piece of the puzzle? Also, medivacs are tier 3 and are required for terrans to even move out save for an early game poke to see if protoss is cutting too many units so you can stop with the 'die to teir 1' stuff any time now. | ||
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
Zealots and Sentries can handle them just fine and Stalkers can outrun them. | ||
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SC2Toastie
Netherlands5725 Posts
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Maniak_
France305 Posts
On October 07 2014 22:59 SC2Toastie wrote: This argument is so pointless. Please stop. Agree with the idea, but can't help finding the double standard funny: On October 07 2014 22:59 SC2Toastie wrote: What Not To Do: Isn't that *exactly* what terrans did against protoss not that long ago? Remember what happened to anyone who tried to say anything like what terrans are saying now? I'm curious if you think that the terran complaints back then were warranted (why?), contrary to the current protoss and zerg ones, or if they were just as pointless and should have been ignored (hence no patch). | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On October 07 2014 23:23 Maniak_ wrote: Agree with the idea, but can't help finding the double standard funny: Isn't that *exactly* what terrans did against protoss not that long ago? Remember what happened to anyone who tried to say anything like what terrans are saying now? I'm curious if you think that the terran complaints back then were warranted (why?), contrary to the current protoss and zerg ones, or if they were just as pointless and should have been ignored (hence no patch). Did you somehow miss the end of 2013/first half of 2014 with: - 3-4 Terrans in Code S 2 seasons in a row; - 15 Premier Tournaments in a row with no Terran win; - Terran heavily underrepresented in every single area of competitive play? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25081 Posts
You can say that Terran is straightjacketed into going Bio, which I agree with but at least you can vary things stylistically a lot with Bio-based compositions | ||
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Meavis
Netherlands1300 Posts
Complaint Problem: both terran and protoss have limited options in the TvP MU Solution: give high templars detector/other options on the templar tech tree to deal with mines Solution: reduce the costs of tanks from 150/125 to 150/100/add an upgrade that increases vs shields damage Side Effects: either could end up more powerful than other options lots of balance tweaking to get them on equal footing with other options might effect vs Z MU's anyone has some other suggestions/things i'm missing on? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25081 Posts
I'm still in the 'wait and see' camp, Protoss players are already very good at Blink dodging to avoid mines for example, so may start experimenting with slightly different compositions. Unrevealed hallucinations trigger mines right? | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2627 Posts
On October 07 2014 23:38 Meavis wrote: ok so let's constructively work this out then Complaint Problem: both terran and protoss have limited options in the TvP MU Solution: give high templars detector/other options on the templar tech tree to deal with mines Solution: reduce the costs of tanks from 150/125 to 150/100/add an upgrade that increases vs shields damage Side Effects: either could end up more powerful than other options lots of balance tweaking to get them on equal footing with other options might effect vs Z MU's anyone has some other suggestions/things i'm missing on? No need to go SO hard on the changes, I always thought something a long the lines of: For mech theres a few small stuff I always thought could help: Banshees can't be feedbacked and/or a shield/armor upgrade for banshees(or make the banshee usefull for battle in some way) Adding +vs shields to blueflame. This helps with mid/late game mech, encourages micro, as Banshees would need to be microed and Hellbats would need to be droped like in TvT, it would also could help with bio. PDD can't be feedbacked: This will help ultra lategame, when tempest are on the field, PDD could still be killed with voidrays/carriers/archons, but mostly carriers. For protoss: Reduce +vs shield damage (or even remove them) as necesary. This should be ok, templar openers were viable with the old WM it was the +vs shield damage that kill them, so we need to see first how reducing/removing the damage plays out. Increase the leash range of carriers: This would help vs PDD and would make carriers more usable in general. This said I don't really know where I stand on the siege tanks, I like mech but I don't really know if just flat out buffing the siege tank is the solution, I think opening the terran tech tree is better than just going old school and directly buff the tank, but thats my opinion | ||
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