EPTDesignated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 1131
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27291 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
On October 08 2014 04:23 Wombat_NI wrote: I'm definitely not in favour of much of a damage boost to tanks at all. If you were to do it I'd give them overkill to enable counter engagement tactics to work better (for example sending a few sacrificial units to tank a volley and then bum rush them) Overkill however also "kills" micro as it creates a penalty for focus firing with tanks. Personally I think lower attack speed is a much better way at rewarding the desired behaviour (than overkill). | ||
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Faust852
Luxembourg4004 Posts
On October 08 2014 02:22 Ouija wrote: @Faust -- If you actually want to have a discussion drop the childish stuff. I'm headed to class now, but I will be back to continue the discussion. If you want me to drop the childish stuff, you shouldn't have started with BS and non sense. "Mech armies can already roll through protoss armies with 0 trouble at all." Sorry but no. You don't even deserve a discussion with sentences this stupid. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2661 Posts
On October 08 2014 03:43 Samx wrote: Do not know if anyone watched ty vs myunsik final game today. I think ty is such a great thinker of the game. Still remember his Proleague game against maru. Total domination. Anyway back to balance 'discussion'. Go watch Ty's games today. All tvp. To everyone saying mech is not viable. Ty used the tanks to supplement his bio to great effect. Sure it wasn't a pure mech build. But he used 2-3 tanks in some games to great effect. I think a lot of terran players get sucked into a narrow minset. Either bio or mech. And because bio is already so powerful that mech pales in comparison, terrans complain about mech sucking. Looking at Protoss and Zerg plays. Hydra/roach use ranged upgrades but trade horribly against bio. Zerg still use them in the composition, successfully too (hyun). Zergs takes to the air with mutas, broodlords and corruptors. Use infestors/swarm hosts and ultras. Likewise for Protoss players. Hampered by incredibly weak gateway units. Protoss players have to use tech to deal with marines and marauders. From watching pro games, I see the willingness of Protoss and zergs to adapt, to try to use different units. Like snute with swarm host. Like hyun with roach. Protosses need to use higher techs to play else they are dead on gateway units. Over 4 years of watching pro Starcraft 2. This is the mindset I see. Terrans complain about spending a scan to clear creep, kill observer. Build the damn raven. Remember pigbaby? He built 7 observers for bloody detection and scouting. You already have the star port. You already have the tech lab. Roach bane allin can kill you. Build the bloody tank. You already have tech lab and factory. Terran players are too pigeon-holed in their thinking. 4M everyday. When it don't work. Buff terran. I don't see the point in post like these, can't complain about the race? Complain about the players Using tanks with bio is not new, thing is they suck. TY vs Myungsik was a nice series but there is more evidence that point towards the opposite direction, such as Maru's GSL run (he made tanks, they sucked, he lost). As for the tank damage, I think that if we change the shields enough it could be either too small or too big, I thing Hellbats and Banshees are a better option, I've seen people use them and they're a good option vs immortals but they are not really worth it, if we make so they can survive long enough(banshee) can do significan't damage (hellbat) the tank can fill its own role without afecting other MUs, also I think a mech with only a few tanks is better because mech wouldn't be as immobile. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 08 2014 04:29 Hider wrote: Overkill however also "kills" micro as it creates a penalty for focus firing with tanks. Personally I think lower attack speed is a much better way at rewarding the desired behaviour (than overkill). Yup. But I think both ideas just come with the downsides that a damage-buffed tank starts to oneshot whole clumps of lower health units killing more variety than it grants. I still believe main target buffs or more damage vs armored are ways to go besides changing hardened shields. Or the plain +vs shields. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On October 08 2014 04:29 Hider wrote: Overkill however also "kills" micro as it creates a penalty for focus firing with tanks. Personally I think lower attack speed is a much better way at rewarding the desired behaviour (than overkill). I don't quite understand this? If you don't have overkill and you focus fire with tanks, you literally overkill, no? I don't see how this "focus fire" changes with or without overkill Oo (well without overkill they target "smarter", but that is basically bad for micro) But maybe i miss something now | ||
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TokO
Norway577 Posts
I don't think HT vs. Colossus should be considered as two distinct compositions. They are both contained in the general composition that Protoss would like to get to eventually. The choice is more like a bio player delaying medivacs, or adds early ghosts or anything, and should only be relevant for a little while, as you probably should go into colossus much sooner. I think in WoL, HT-Chargelot had a much larger tempo advantage over bio, given the difficulty of microing against multiple fronts of chargelots. There's also the disadvantage of HT tech tending to stifle tech due to the temptation of making as many HT's as possible, to try and survive the bio onslaught. Changes in HotS took away some of those tempo advantages. In my opinion, it doesn't mean that HT-Chargelot does not have any merit of all, or that it is straight out dead. Rather, it seems like it's relatively weaker than the other route in almost all aspects. It definitely can work if you strike some blows in a critical timing, however, I think that if Terrans played like they did in early HotS or even in WoL, they would be even more effective against HT-Chargelot. I don't think that there is much PvT imbalance. Terrans have to get 4 medivacs, I guess our 3-colossus openings can be our equivalent. If you consider Gateway-Colossus-Immortal vs. MMMGV, Terran vs. Protoss has always been very balanced. Usually what happens is either side gets the edge in tempo. E.g. they free up resources to leverage any advantage offensively. And this often causes snowballs. And whenever this happens, it's very easy for either side to cry imba, but they always sweep the race, which is wrong, because it implies compositional imbalance. I think TvP compositions are balanced, but the tempo in which they achieve those compositions are much more debatable. I mean, I've seen people cast 20 EMP's on the same part of my army (hint, it wasn't on my HT's), and then get frustrated with Protoss. And then I've experienced people coating my whole freakin' army with EMP's and decimating it with about 10 supply loss. And that's frustrating for the Protoss, but I don't think it's that imbalanced. | ||
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xongnox
540 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 08 2014 05:31 TokO wrote: I think a lot of the discussion misses the point that TvP is a game of tempo, and not a game of composition. Straight up in strength, I have no issues saying that mech is as strong as bio TvP. But the issue is that it doesn't bring the same amount of tempo as Bio. It scales worse, and lets the Protoss macro up and create the optimal counter composition. I don't think this will change if Mech is buffed in a straight up way. It's not like we want the warhound back. It's really always both, a game of tempo and composition. In all matchups. And I'm 100% certain that Mech is weaker than bio in straight up engagements. The only reason it can still survive is by cutting economy and playing defensive or getting ridiculous amounts of damage done. Which leads to what you wrote, in comparison the Protoss can macro up much more than the Terran. I mean the whole reason why the Protoss can spend so much into economy and infrastructure early is that he does not need to invest as much into composition building early as he needs against bio, BECAUSE the Mech army is too weak to punish him. It's not like you cannot cross the map on similar times as bio does. But unlike 30supply of bio challenging a Protoss 3rd, 2-4 tanks and hellbats and maybe a thor will just get roflstomped by nearly any Protoss composition. Again, because Mech units are plainly worse than bio in combat in this matchup (implying a standard amount of unit control in all scenarios of course). Mech as it currently is balanced stands on 3feet: 1) very strong ground army in the lategame through stockpiling mid- and longrange units 2) very strong caster that similar to a swarm host eventually just trades for free with everything 3) strong workerharrassment But in TvP, Protoss can match 1) with ridiculous hardcounter-relations in the longrun wihout the drawback of the early game bad scaling or immobility. And 2) is less of an issue due to feedback. | ||
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Sapphire.lux
Romania2620 Posts
I'l add though that there are some hellion heavy builds that can keep the Protoss honest, relatively speaking. You trade some early game defense though. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27291 Posts
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Ouija
United States129 Posts
On October 08 2014 02:33 ( bush wrote: Your argument doesn't make too much sense to me. You say that you and a bunch of other people can make mech work vs Protoss at masters level. That means exactly what it says, nothing else. I can crush people with mass reapers at masters level, and I know a lot of other people who are also capable of doing that. Does it mean mass reapers is a viable strategy which people can do in GSL and win with it? I said I've made it work at that level ( The only reason I pointed it out is because I have personally told protoss players i'm going mech and they do some blink/immortal shenanigans off 2 base or something similar and get crushed, so even with a clear advantage to the protoss they still cant handle what you consider to be an inferior playstyle). There are mech players at GM level on NA and i'm sure there are some mech players in GM on the other servers as well. So clearly players of any caliber can mech vs protoss and win, there is no reason it would be any different for the top top tier players. You make it sound as if mech is a set build. Terran plays bio basically every single game but there are different variations used to reach the later stages of the game where the compositions almost always ends up the same. People who play mech can do the same thing so it's nothing like massing up 1 unit and winning quickly.( congrats you can 8rax reaper and win!!) Its just that mech has not really been through stages of development like bio has due to it rarely being played in major tournaments and other events. What if these top terrans put all their 12 hours into playing mech vs toss for a month or two? Do you truly think they would not win with it? | ||
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PinheadXXXXXX
United States897 Posts
On October 08 2014 09:08 Ouija wrote: I said I've made it work at that level ( The only reason I pointed it out is because I have personally told protoss players i'm going mech and they do some blink/immortal shenanigans off 2 base or something similar and get crushed, so even with a clear advantage to the protoss they still cant handle what you consider to be an inferior playstyle). There are mech players at GM level on NA and i'm sure there are some mech players in GM on the other servers as well. So clearly players of any caliber can mech vs protoss and win, there is no reason it would be any different for the top top tier players. You make it sound as if mech is a set build. Terran plays bio basically every single game but there are different variations used to reach the later stages of the game where the compositions almost always ends up the same. People who play mech can do the same thing so it's nothing like massing up 1 unit and winning quickly.( congrats you can 8rax reaper and win!!) Its just that mech has not really been through stages of development like bio has due to it rarely being played in major tournaments and other events. What if these top terrans put all their 12 hours into playing mech vs toss for a month or two? Do you truly think they would not win with it? We have seen Terrans put a lot of practice into mech. For instance, Bbyong in proleague brought out a fairly strong mech build, and demolished the first time he brought it out. Not so true the second time. Just because an opponent may initially flail around when they first see it doesn't mean it's actually good. Ladder is generally a good environment for that as its Bo1 and your opponents haven't been practicing specifically for you, but if they do prepare, then you are crushed. For instance, Bbyong was beaten solidly by his next several opponents when he tried to mech, and in 2014 Code A season 1 Stats, playing Supernova, a known mech lover, prepares with a very specific counter style and wins quite easily. I've seen Major, on stream, play mech in every TvP for an entire stream session with an obviously polished build, style, and timings, but when he plays someone who he already played, it just doesn't work. It's not a solid style when just a little bit of preparation can easily counter it. | ||
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Eraz0rZ
Netherlands47 Posts
Mech is slow = you cannot micro and maximise unit potential. Mech is turtle = You have to turtle and play greedy not try to harras but be greedy with big setup defences. Mech doesnt work early to midgame. As a meching player all you need is a huge lead (wich you can effectively get by adding stuff like siege tanks and w/m) in a defensive posture. Stop trying to be aggressive with ur 200/200 supply thors. Think what counters the army of the protoss costly units. The problem with mech is it is an entirely different playstyle then backstab drop. You cant punish someone with it, you arent supposed to harrass but be defensive and know when you can be greedy, know what timings can be used against you so you can scout and counter those if you see them. Pros dont use mech because there is a skillcap. Wich P pros can abuse since the entire 'meta' of mech isnt anywhere close to as where bio play is. Look back at start of HotS or even WoL for the sake of it. Now try to do the builds pro used back then. You will get owned because they where flawed and the meta eventually left them in the dust. Mech never had a reall big group of ppl 'working' on the meta. There is no copy paste build order for it since it literally doesnt exist yet to the level where we are at now. Hence why pros will not use mech ever untill its horribly overpowered and some no name suddenly takes a tournament cuz he made a new meta. Its not worth investing time in since its not there playstyle. Its like playing a whole new race for that matter. It first has to be figured out. Now lets get back to TEMPLAR openings and why its BAD that it got removed in totall with the w/m buff. The few templar builds are NOT safe builds. They are used because most ppl already adapted in the pro scene to not even get mines out but just the threat of them forces toss to collosi. Its a mindgame. Also what if you QQ terrans actually HAD a solid working mech build wich was essentially another path to playing terran. How would you feel if Protoss QQ eventually got so bad blizzard gives the immortal an extra dps buff and undrainable shields. Aka making your entire Mech-build insta trash. Because that is literally what this is. This entire 'mech' shit is just an excuse because terrans are so familiar with always doing the same buildorder, Instead now protoss has the buildorder you can 'creatively' counteract because its always the same. And terrans want to keep there W/M as is. With no regards to balance whatsoever. | ||
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Ouija
United States129 Posts
On October 08 2014 09:17 PinheadXXXXXX wrote: We have seen Terrans put a lot of practice into mech. For instance, Bbyong in proleague brought out a fairly strong mech build, and demolished the first time he brought it out. Not so true the second time. Just because an opponent may initially flail around when they first see it doesn't mean it's actually good. Ladder is generally a good environment for that as its Bo1 and your opponents haven't been practicing specifically for you, but if they do prepare, then you are crushed. For instance, Bbyong was beaten solidly by his next several opponents when he tried to mech, and in 2014 Code A season 1 Stats, playing Supernova, a known mech lover, prepares with a very specific counter style and wins quite easily. I've seen Major, on stream, play mech in every TvP for an entire stream session with an obviously polished build, style, and timings, but when he plays someone who he already played, it just doesn't work. It's not a solid style when just a little bit of preparation can easily counter it. Well that was kind of what I was touching on. Bio has a few variations during the early and mid stages of the game, and I don't want to say that mech doesn't, but it's just not developed yet and these little tweaks earlier in the game can help a player win with the same composition against the same player multiple times. I personally have not watched all bbyongs mech games so i don't know if he did the same exact build or not, but if so I would expect him to get beat and possibly a slight change to the build could of been a way for him to pull out a win. | ||
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johnbongham
451 Posts
On October 08 2014 09:30 Eraz0rZ wrote: The ONLY reason why mech isnt viable PvT is because it lacks skill. literally. Mech is slow = you cannot micro and maximise unit potential. Mech is turtle = You have to turtle and play greedy not try to harras but be greedy with big setup defences. Mech doesnt work early to midgame. As a meching player all you need is a huge lead (wich you can effectively get by adding stuff like siege tanks and w/m) in a defensive posture. Stop trying to be aggressive with ur 200/200 supply thors. Think what counters the army of the protoss costly units. The problem with mech is it is an entirely different playstyle then backstab drop. You cant punish someone with it, you arent supposed to harrass but be defensive and know when you can be greedy, know what timings can be used against you so you can scout and counter those if you see them. Pros dont use mech because there is a skillcap. Wich P pros can abuse since the entire 'meta' of mech isnt anywhere close to as where bio play is. Look back at start of HotS or even WoL for the sake of it. Now try to do the builds pro used back then. You will get owned because they where flawed and the meta eventually left them in the dust. Mech never had a reall big group of ppl 'working' on the meta. There is no copy paste build order for it since it literally doesnt exist yet to the level where we are at now. Hence why pros will not use mech ever untill its horribly overpowered and some no name suddenly takes a tournament cuz he made a new meta. Its not worth investing time in since its not there playstyle. Its like playing a whole new race for that matter. It first has to be figured out. Now lets get back to TEMPLAR openings and why its BAD that it got removed in totall with the w/m buff. The few templar builds are NOT safe builds. They are used because most ppl already adapted in the pro scene to not even get mines out but just the threat of them forces toss to collosi. Its a mindgame. Also what if you QQ terrans actually HAD a solid working mech build wich was essentially another path to playing terran. How would you feel if Protoss QQ eventually got so bad blizzard gives the immortal an extra dps buff and undrainable shields. Aka making your entire Mech-build insta trash. Because that is literally what this is. This entire 'mech' shit is just an excuse because terrans are so familiar with always doing the same buildorder, Instead now protoss has the buildorder you can 'creatively' counteract because its always the same. And terrans want to keep there W/M as is. With no regards to balance whatsoever. None of this made any sense. HT still exists in PvT. Just because you cant simply expand and tech straight to them does not make them any worse of a unit. It just means you can't simply rely on HT to survive through the mid-game. The difference is that terrans never had a working mech build to be quite honest, and most mech units are completely useless in the matchup and are hard countered by multiple protoss units. Protoss still uses HT in pretty much every single game. Its not even comparable. PvT isnt imbalanced just because you cant do the build you want. | ||
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Lexender
Mexico2661 Posts
On October 08 2014 09:35 Ouija wrote: Well that was kind of what I was touching on. Bio has a few variations during the early and mid stages of the game, and I don't want to say that mech doesn't, but it's just not developed yet and these little tweaks earlier in the game can help a player win with the same composition against the same player multiple times. I personally have not watched all bbyongs mech games so i don't know if he did the same exact build or not, but if so I would expect him to get beat and possibly a slight change to the build could of been a way for him to pull out a win. No, SuperNova is not only a known mech specialist but also a build order master, he has tons of builds and specialices on having diferent strats, and when he plays he gets 1 or 2 wins but they figure him out easily; heavy thor, tank/wm, ghost/mech, mass hellion/hellbat, mech with heavy sky (viking/banshee), pure sky (raven/viking/bc), heavy medivac hellbat/tank, he plays A LOT of stiles, but mech is just too weak, there are no real core units, the counters are too strong, I follow a lot of mech players and what you say is just a fantasy | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27291 Posts
I don't recall Terrans QQing about these styles either, it was mostly on the topic of various Protoss allins. Like I've said, we'll see how things develop in the coming months, it would be a shame if it died out completely though. Gateway/Templar styles enabled for more spreading of armies and cool plays in the matchup for a very good Protoss than Collosus ones. A constant complaint is of the 'A-move' nature of Protoss, so I would have thought the style that was the antithesis of that would be welcomed. TvP is as said before a matchup predicated on tempo and hard counters. It is an advantage, albeit one that hasn't IMO translated to imbalance yet that Terrans can pretty much count on Collosus first builds in the vast majority of macro games at the pro level currently | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
The latter seems to sneak into the discussion but that's naturally rubbish. There are a large number of viable builds for Protoss, from a number of fast expands to various blink allins (San vs. Bunny is the last time I saw that), robo allins, stargate openers (both voidray and oracle, with different continuations - phoenix being one). What Protoss is trying to claim is that they are shoehorned into one viable opening like T was stuck with reaper expands due to the plethora of P allins with various requirements such as having a turret or 5 marines to ward off oracles at certain early timings. Such timings do not exist for Protoss. Yes, in a macro game the P needs to get colossus and range before HT, but the way to get there is incredibly varied, and until the 9 minute mark, the game is very varied. So, to complain that they must get colossus and range at a specific timing (it's not even a specific timing, some people get blink quicker, other colossus quicker, some get stargate units, others do not) is like T complaining that they must get stim in the midgame (you could even boil down the lack of mech complaints to this, in a glib manner). If it's the former, we want HT openers back, well, I guess we should wait for Legacy of the Void, like T waited for mech in HotS. | ||
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starslayer
United States696 Posts
On October 08 2014 09:30 Eraz0rZ wrote: The ONLY reason why mech isnt viable PvT is because it lacks skill. literally. Mech is slow = you cannot micro and maximise unit potential. Mech is turtle = You have to turtle and play greedy not try to harras but be greedy with big setup defences. Mech doesnt work early to midgame. As a meching player all you need is a huge lead (wich you can effectively get by adding stuff like siege tanks and w/m) in a defensive posture. Stop trying to be aggressive with ur 200/200 supply thors. Think what counters the army of the protoss costly units. The problem with mech is it is an entirely different playstyle then backstab drop. You cant punish someone with it, you arent supposed to harrass but be defensive and know when you can be greedy, know what timings can be used against you so you can scout and counter those if you see them. Pros dont use mech because there is a skillcap. Wich P pros can abuse since the entire 'meta' of mech isnt anywhere close to as where bio play is. Look back at start of HotS or even WoL for the sake of it. Now try to do the builds pro used back then. You will get owned because they where flawed and the meta eventually left them in the dust. Mech never had a reall big group of ppl 'working' on the meta. There is no copy paste build order for it since it literally doesnt exist yet to the level where we are at now. Hence why pros will not use mech ever untill its horribly overpowered and some no name suddenly takes a tournament cuz he made a new meta. Its not worth investing time in since its not there playstyle. Its like playing a whole new race for that matter. It first has to be figured out. Now lets get back to TEMPLAR openings and why its BAD that it got removed in totall with the w/m buff. The few templar builds are NOT safe builds. They are used because most ppl already adapted in the pro scene to not even get mines out but just the threat of them forces toss to collosi. Its a mindgame. Also what if you QQ terrans actually HAD a solid working mech build wich was essentially another path to playing terran. How would you feel if Protoss QQ eventually got so bad blizzard gives the immortal an extra dps buff and undrainable shields. Aka making your entire Mech-build insta trash. Because that is literally what this is. This entire 'mech' shit is just an excuse because terrans are so familiar with always doing the same buildorder, Instead now protoss has the buildorder you can 'creatively' counteract because its always the same. And terrans want to keep there W/M as is. With no regards to balance whatsoever. LOL I just love how wrong this whole post is very funny. so first mech is slow yea ill agree to that but the no micro is just so wrong, when meching you need to micro you hellion to take out things like hts drones marines, and always have hellbats and hellions in front its not like they just magically get there.also theres banshee micro same as hellion sniping key units like ht, tanks, immortals etc. raven micro pdd seekers auto turrets and before patch targeting with thors. mech = turtle again ill kinda agree, but then you go talking about something you know nothing about as a meching terran you can't just sit there all game YOU HAVE TO HARASS, I.e Banshees, hellion runbys, hellbat drops, tank drops, etc if you just let your opponent take the map without touching them you will lose because they have the whole map and enough resources to remax 10x over. if you ever watched anyone play mech you would see this in all there games not one meching terran wont harass cause it gives them info on what there opponent is doing and keeps there opponent back not attacking them. and mech doesnt work early-mid game well again i will give that to you but really only in tvp, tvt and tvz they work fine mid game forgg shows this fine with his blueflame build and hellbat banshee into mech has been around for awhile. now you go saying all you need is a huge lead with mech but then say by using defense positions. which makes no sense you cant get a huge lead by just sitting back. are you saying a mech player can just open up siege tanks vs toss siege up and be fine,cause no that doesnt work toss just see's your turtle meching takes the map makes immortals or tempest or both and attack you and you lose. or are you saying terran has to do some early damage and then fall back on tanks wm and be fine, cause again doesnt work if you do early damage you dont just sit there you follow it up with more attacks but mech will take so long to get up that perfect army that the toss will recover from the early dmg and be even with chrono. the next part i just love "Stop trying to be aggressive with ur 200/200 supply thors. Think what counters the army of the protoss costly units." this is just so funny because ive played and watch meching terrans vs toss and they get that perfect army the counter the protoss army and just die because of the remax from toss. thats what you are forgetting here, sure maybe the terran will win a fight with that perfect army but the second he moves in for the kill there already the counter to that army because of warpgate and chrono. even if a meching terran wins any fight it has to be a small map to win because by the time he gets to the toss side, toss already has another army that counters the army the terran has been building all game.This happens all the time, terran builds banshees ghost with mech wins the fight moves cross map and bam tempest immortal is there waiting for you. Im sorry you cant just say build the counter to there units cause unless the toss is stupid hes going to counter your counter and will have enough time to get it because mech takes forever to set up and longer to remax where toss again has chrono and warpgate. already address the harassing part, its a must you have to harass, going to just skip some stuff your just saying stuff to say it, but to the point of "theres not a big group of ppl meching", again not true, just about every pro switching from BW trys mech on ladder i have heard this multiple times they just dont do it in tournements because they know its bad and doesnt work. not that there lazy and dont want to learn something new or theres no buildorder, it just isnt viable, really the only time it has worked was when the protoss didnt scout it till 16 mins in the games which is way to late to scout anything. I will agree that they probably dont work on it like say an avilo or htomario but ive watched stream talked to people and heard from caster and people in the scene say that they do practice mech, but ill say it again like everyone say it isnt viable for tourneys because its easily countered. not going to get into the rest cause its just toss crying and talking shit about terran. but ill say this please dont talk about something you have NO idea about its clear you have never tired mech or probably even terran at that. Honestly really unless your masters with all there races you cant make an argument here because you going to be totally bias to your race as we can see from the post i quoted and even from what Im sayings. Im not saying im masters with all there races but I just so sick or people posting shit they have no idea about and think they can get away with it. TL dr the post quoted is a toss talking about mech without having a clue so i told them how wrong they were. and dont waste your time trying to argue with me i wont get into it. | ||
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