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Terran emblematic unit from BW to SC2
- Siege Tanks
Major complaint against Terran player accross all WoL/HoTS history :
- Terran only play Marine all day long
Major complaint from Terran player accross all WoL/HoTS history :
- Mech units sucks
Terran players known for using mech/biomech comps in TvZ/TvT in WoL
- Everyone
Terran players known for using mech/biomech comps in TvZ/TvT in HoTS
- Everyone after mine nerf, Flash since mine re-buff.
I won't insult everyone quoting every thread on TL about Biomech/Mech in TvP, or name pro-player who try them regularly on ladder and/or pro-match, the first part is EZ to do on your own, the second just needs you to search nearly all Major Terran progamers from WoL to nowadays, KR and foreigners.
Thing is, no standard mech play ever came to life in TvP, a few 1/2 base all-ins were used with tanks or thors in WoL against P, and that alone was fucking cool.
For TvZ in HoTS, the only mech/biomech style who seems to become kind of 'standard' is 1 hour turtlefeast into mass raven.
I don't have a master in Nuclear research, just A-level in 'standard chicken common sense', but... what if... mech units... were just... bad?
So what if people stopped saying every T pro does not have any knowledge about their race and the relatives playstyles, and just admit the game has been balanced around Bio and the rest is garbage atm ?
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the thing is though, terran already uses "biomech" in every matchup. what terran players dont admit is that they dont want "mech," they want to safely turtle with siege tanks, which makes for worse games than swarm hosts. siege tanks suck because if they were good the game would suck
when terrans say "positional play" or "strategic play" they typically mean "i want to autowin as long as i set up my tank lines correctly"
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On October 08 2014 21:40 brickrd wrote:
the thing is though, terran already uses "biomech" in every matchup. what terran players dont admit is that they dont want "mech," they want to safely turtle with siege tanks, which makes for worse games than swarm hosts. siege tanks suck because if they were good the game would suck
when terrans say "positional play" or "strategic play" they typically mean "i want to autowin as long as i set up my tank lines correctly"
Idk. Would be fun if terran could harass, multitask and split its units as mech. They cant.
Something i would love to see is siegetanks working with bio vs protoss. This could potentially be very fun to watch.
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siege tanks suck because if they were good the game would suck
Mech play is totally reliant on terran being able to harass in the midgame. That's why I believe the best way to fix mech is first to look at its harass-unit - The hellion. Balance that around being able to kill static defense and not be hard-countered by defensive warp ins. Next-step is ofc to get rid of the hardened shield on the Immortal, and balance the Immortal around being good against tanks, but not hardcountering them in small numbers.
Otherwise it is indeed very boring. Late game, however, when tanks can be split all over the map, and opponent can abuse its immobility, it can be a pretty cool composition, but 3-suply tanks and mass ravens - as mech works in Sc2 - doesn't really reward that dynamic.
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On October 08 2014 21:40 brickrd wrote:
the thing is though, terran already uses "biomech" in every matchup. what terran players dont admit is that they dont want "mech," they want to safely turtle with siege tanks, which makes for worse games than swarm hosts. siege tanks suck because if they were good the game would suck
when terrans say "positional play" or "strategic play" they typically mean "i want to autowin as long as i set up my tank lines correctly"
I personally hate the super defensive mech styles that never attack and usually depend on Raven and PFs to absorb attack after attack until the map is mined out. This is certainly not what i want when i say i want mech to be viable TvP. This Avilo type of play gives mech a bad name IMO and it also makes people that have no idea what "good" mech is like, to act like haters.
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the thing is though, terran already uses "biomech" in every matchup. what terran players dont admit is that they dont want "mech," they want to safely turtle with siege tanks, which makes for worse games than swarm hosts. siege tanks suck because if they were good the game would suck
when terrans say "positional play" or "strategic play" they typically mean "i want to autowin as long as i set up my tank lines correctly"
No. Lie. Fake.
Who says everywhere they are happy of current TvZ mech? No one, especially Terran players.
Where mech/biomech in TvT leads to turtlefeast? Bronze league.
TvP mech marine-tank was fun, but stuck in a 2 base pressure/all-in, same with Jjikaji marine/thor/banshee.
TvT/TvZ marine-tank vs marine-tank is nowhere near turtlefeast, nor is bio/biotank vs mech, even for the mech player.
Mech WoL TvZ the same, although in late, late game raven transitions leaded to some stalemate the rest of the game was quite action-packed.
idk what people want, but it's sure it's not Lyynna's style, most zerg players don't like SH style either, some do, but most people don't enjoy it.
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I'm bored, here's a bunch of changes to make mech more viable:
BC:
AtG +2vs armored added
AtA 2 damage converted into +2vs armored
Tank:
Damage buffed to 50 (+20vs armored)
100% splash to 70%
50% splash to 35%
25% splash to 17.5%
Tank does full damage to main target
Hellion/Hellbat:
Transformation time changed from 4 to 2.5 seconds
Hellbat Hitpoints to 125 from 135
Raven:
PDD is now a ground unit with the collision size of a zergling
Viper:
Blinding Cloud from 2 to 2.5 radius
Range reduction from -20 to -6
Immortal:
Hardened Shields now only half all damage greater than 20
Carrier:
1 interceptor damage converted into +2 vs light
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Northern Ireland25047 Posts
I've potentially solved it. Give the Tank back its Brood War sound.
I'm being mostly facetious but it's so booming, so visceral, so terrifying. The sheer manliness of tanks with that noise will inspire Kespa's finest to go into mass hibernation, only re-emerging with a collection of refined and beautiful mech builds.
That or wait until a proper rejigging for LoTV to see its return.
Frankly, unpopular though it is to voice this, is Swarmhost play really that much different from BW-style mech? It lacks something of the leapfrogging nuance and is more static, but at its fundamental core I don't see a massive difference.
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One thing I really think should be tried on pro level is mine/tank/viking. It has so many advantages over traditional mech:
Upgrades are hardly needed
Mines do most of your damage output and do not benefit from attack upgrades. Amour upgrades are good to have but you can delay them a lot.
Synergize better than traditional mech
Mine/Tank/Viking synergize well and cover each other weakness. Mines are good vs almost anything, Vikings snipe observers, Tanks snipe HTs and Tank/Viking snipe Colossus. No Protoss unit composition hard counter mine/tank/viking, the only counter is superior micro and positioning skills.
Works better in lower numbers
Traditional mech needs to have tank/hellbat/viking/thors/ghost and need a critical mass of tanks and ghosts to be effective outside of certain timing attacks. Mine/tank works excellent in lower numbers, both on the offense and on the defense, you do not need to wait to get a critical mass before you attack.
Much easier to deal with air transitions.
Mines do really well against all air as long as spot the transition in time. It is not like traditional mech where you need to invest in mass Ravens to counter Tempest or mass Vikings to counter Carriers. Mines work great against both as long as you are being aggressive and trade in time.
Mine drops are really good
In the best case scenario they win you the game. In the worst case scenario you do not do much damage but forces Protoss to invest in static defense, keep stalkers at home, take up robo time to get out more observers etc. Mine drops are also really good counter attacks to oracle play and fast blink stalker attacks.
So far I have not lost a single game with mine/tank/viking in TvP except against opponents that were simply better than me. It is not like traditional mech where you need to rely on your opponent not knowing how to play versus mech, or outplay him be a large margin in order to win. You need to play it very differently compared to traditional mech though, you need to attack and trade often due to the supply inefficiency of mines.
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You say that in "traditional mech" you have to rely on your opponents not knowing how to play vs. mech, but do you think they know how to play vs mine heavy mech? Between the 2 styles, i'd say any Protoss would be much more in the dark of how to play against heavy mine.
I never played Protoss against heavy mine mech, but IMO one very important factor would be having good storm skills. Use Zealots to eat Tank shots and drive in with HT storming around the Tanks, then mop up with more Zealots.
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On October 09 2014 01:28 MockHamill wrote:
One thing I really think should be tried on pro level is mine/tank/viking. It has so many advantages over traditional mech:
Sounds plausible but I have a feeling the ridiculous immobility of mine+tank will make this style non-viable.
How do you deal with any form of backstab/harass, and how do you push without leaving half your army at home?
How many bases/how long are the games where to end up winning?
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On October 09 2014 01:21 Wombat_NI wrote:
I've potentially solved it. Give the Tank back its Brood War sound.
I'm being mostly facetious but it's so booming, so visceral, so terrifying. The sheer manliness of tanks with that noise will inspire Kespa's finest to go into mass hibernation, only re-emerging with a collection of refined and beautiful mech builds.
That or wait until a proper rejigging for LoTV to see its return.
Frankly, unpopular though it is to voice this, is Swarmhost play really that much different from BW-style mech? It lacks something of the leapfrogging nuance and is more static, but at its fundamental core I don't see a massive difference.
It's not fundamentally different. Just different. The key to BW mech being so fun was the Vulture as much as the tank. Take out the Vulture, which was one of the most microable units in BW and very entertaining to watch, and what we have is similar to HOTS TvZ mech vs. SH. Hider says:
Mech play is totally reliant on terran being able to harass in the midgame. That's why I believe the best way to fix mech is first to look at its harass-unit - The hellion.
I agree with him all the way up until the Hellion part. The Hellion has such an established role in TvZ that I'd be wary of redesigning it. I think that the Viking and Banshee are much better targets for this. Viking's ground mode is completely meh, when it could be a core aspect of the unit. The only MU where Banshees are standard is TvT, as an opening and rarely enough a super late-game comp. Nothing of value would be lost by changing it.
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On October 09 2014 02:07 r691175002 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2014 01:28 MockHamill wrote:
One thing I really think should be tried on pro level is mine/tank/viking. It has so many advantages over traditional mech:
Sounds plausible but I have a feeling the ridiculous immobility of mine+tank will make this style non-viable. How do you deal with any form of backstab/harass, and how do you push without leaving half your army at home? How many bases/how long are the games where to end up winning?
If my opponent screws up his drop defence I win on 2 or 3 bases. But given that all my drops are deflected I typically win on 3-4 bases. I play it very aggressively so even if Protoss get their late game tech their units numbers are typically low. I do not think I have ever got to a scenario where we both are on 5-6 bases with the this play style so I am not sure how that plays out.
Backstabs are not that problematic. Good wall offs, turrets, mines and a few tanks deals with smaller backstabs. If he commits a lot I will simply go for a base trade, and good luck winning a base trade against mine/tank.
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On October 09 2014 02:18 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2014 01:21 Wombat_NI wrote:
I've potentially solved it. Give the Tank back its Brood War sound.
I'm being mostly facetious but it's so booming, so visceral, so terrifying. The sheer manliness of tanks with that noise will inspire Kespa's finest to go into mass hibernation, only re-emerging with a collection of refined and beautiful mech builds.
That or wait until a proper rejigging for LoTV to see its return.
Frankly, unpopular though it is to voice this, is Swarmhost play really that much different from BW-style mech? It lacks something of the leapfrogging nuance and is more static, but at its fundamental core I don't see a massive difference. It's not fundamentally different. Just different. The key to BW mech being so fun was the Vulture as much as the tank. Take out the Vulture, which was one of the most microable units in BW and very entertaining to watch, and what we have is similar to HOTS TvZ mech vs. SH. Hider says: Show nested quote +Mech play is totally reliant on terran being able to harass in the midgame. That's why I believe the best way to fix mech is first to look at its harass-unit - The hellion. I agree with him all the way up until the Hellion part. The Hellion has such an established role in TvZ that I'd be wary of redesigning it. I think that the Viking and Banshee are much better targets for this. Viking's ground mode is completely meh, when it could be a core aspect of the unit. The only MU where Banshees are standard is TvT, as an opening and rarely enough a super late-game comp. Nothing of value would be lost by changing it.
Just what I said a few pages ago: Banshees, they are amazing in mech, both in TvZ and TvT, they are really good in TvP mech but the reason they aren't used as much is because they die too easily and are really expensive, banshees are good vs immortals but they die to easily to stalkers/archons and specially HT, a few HT can storm/feedback an entire fleet of banshees way to easily, if the banshees could somehow be more resistent, they could be used as part of a normal mech composition.
Also I think a +vs shield to blue flame is an idea I think is really good, that way hellions and hellbat drops are used to drain shields and then tanks are used to kill the army, we wouldn't even need to buff the tank, and tank/hellbat would be scary in low numbers not like now were you need a critical mass of tank/hellbat/ghost for the plash + EMP to be worth it, this way the game would be more BW style too, in BW tank/vulture was strong enough as it was but you could also add more to it with EMP from SV, the new medivac would also make it so agressive mech would be more rewarded as it would reward to constatly drop tanks and hellbats than just turtling and waiting for carrier/tempest to kill you.
Perhaps even adding blue flame timings that could be use in the midgame, instead of make tanks to take a third.
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Northern Ireland25047 Posts
On October 09 2014 02:18 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2014 01:21 Wombat_NI wrote:
I've potentially solved it. Give the Tank back its Brood War sound.
I'm being mostly facetious but it's so booming, so visceral, so terrifying. The sheer manliness of tanks with that noise will inspire Kespa's finest to go into mass hibernation, only re-emerging with a collection of refined and beautiful mech builds.
That or wait until a proper rejigging for LoTV to see its return.
Frankly, unpopular though it is to voice this, is Swarmhost play really that much different from BW-style mech? It lacks something of the leapfrogging nuance and is more static, but at its fundamental core I don't see a massive difference. It's not fundamentally different. Just different. The key to BW mech being so fun was the Vulture as much as the tank. Take out the Vulture, which was one of the most microable units in BW and very entertaining to watch, and what we have is similar to HOTS TvZ mech vs. SH. Hider says: Show nested quote +Mech play is totally reliant on terran being able to harass in the midgame. That's why I believe the best way to fix mech is first to look at its harass-unit - The hellion. I agree with him all the way up until the Hellion part. The Hellion has such an established role in TvZ that I'd be wary of redesigning it. I think that the Viking and Banshee are much better targets for this. Viking's ground mode is completely meh, when it could be a core aspect of the unit. The only MU where Banshees are standard is TvT, as an opening and rarely enough a super late-game comp. Nothing of value would be lost by changing it.
I think the main difference is just between the games really. Vultures are a great unit of course, but their offensive worth is so high because of BW expansion patterns, players being spread out across 4-6 bases with regularity and the likes. There are naturally holes to exploit that will open up.
I like the Banshee to snipe priority targets and be a general nuisance in a mech army, it's pretty cool to watch when done well
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But vikings are a really core unit in tvp. Making the ground mode..Better would be quite bad for the balance since terran can mass vikings blindly of 2starport and if there are no colossus..They are still useful. Would make colossus bad as hell.
Or maybe there are way more directions to go with the viking ground mode. Nevertheless, would be cool to see it work well as a ground attacker to and not purely as a harasser.
Siegetanks and vikings with groundmode good vs protoss would be rly fun and cool.
Something i can only see for lotv and not in a patch
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On October 09 2014 02:49 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2014 02:18 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 09 2014 01:21 Wombat_NI wrote:
I've potentially solved it. Give the Tank back its Brood War sound.
I'm being mostly facetious but it's so booming, so visceral, so terrifying. The sheer manliness of tanks with that noise will inspire Kespa's finest to go into mass hibernation, only re-emerging with a collection of refined and beautiful mech builds.
That or wait until a proper rejigging for LoTV to see its return.
Frankly, unpopular though it is to voice this, is Swarmhost play really that much different from BW-style mech? It lacks something of the leapfrogging nuance and is more static, but at its fundamental core I don't see a massive difference. It's not fundamentally different. Just different. The key to BW mech being so fun was the Vulture as much as the tank. Take out the Vulture, which was one of the most microable units in BW and very entertaining to watch, and what we have is similar to HOTS TvZ mech vs. SH. Hider says: Mech play is totally reliant on terran being able to harass in the midgame. That's why I believe the best way to fix mech is first to look at its harass-unit - The hellion. I agree with him all the way up until the Hellion part. The Hellion has such an established role in TvZ that I'd be wary of redesigning it. I think that the Viking and Banshee are much better targets for this. Viking's ground mode is completely meh, when it could be a core aspect of the unit. The only MU where Banshees are standard is TvT, as an opening and rarely enough a super late-game comp. Nothing of value would be lost by changing it. I think the main difference is just between the games really. Vultures are a great unit of course, but their offensive worth is so high because of BW expansion patterns, players being spread out across 4-6 bases with regularity and the likes. There are naturally holes to exploit that will open up. I like the Banshee to snipe priority targets and be a general nuisance in a mech army, it's pretty cool to watch when done well
Well, looking at just TvZ, there's plenty of "natural holes to exploit" for Terran - Zerg has lots of expansions, an immobile army, and creep tumors all over the map. Banshees could be amazing at wreaking havoc in a situation like this, but for numerous reasons (probably the most important is how expensive they are?), Terrans are way too cautious with them for it to be consistently entertaining. Too often the Terran ignores how spread out the Zerg is and just ends up attacking SH head on with his Ravens.
As for making SH more interesting - and I believe that they could be, and aren't, for the exact same reasons as SC2 tanks - the Zerg need a similarly mobile and microable unit. Lings and Mutas seem prime candidates, but Lings aren't interesting enough and Mutas... I dunno. I'd like to hear a Zerg's thoughts on the matter.
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On October 09 2014 03:06 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2014 02:49 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 09 2014 02:18 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 09 2014 01:21 Wombat_NI wrote:
I've potentially solved it. Give the Tank back its Brood War sound.
I'm being mostly facetious but it's so booming, so visceral, so terrifying. The sheer manliness of tanks with that noise will inspire Kespa's finest to go into mass hibernation, only re-emerging with a collection of refined and beautiful mech builds.
That or wait until a proper rejigging for LoTV to see its return.
Frankly, unpopular though it is to voice this, is Swarmhost play really that much different from BW-style mech? It lacks something of the leapfrogging nuance and is more static, but at its fundamental core I don't see a massive difference. It's not fundamentally different. Just different. The key to BW mech being so fun was the Vulture as much as the tank. Take out the Vulture, which was one of the most microable units in BW and very entertaining to watch, and what we have is similar to HOTS TvZ mech vs. SH. Hider says: Mech play is totally reliant on terran being able to harass in the midgame. That's why I believe the best way to fix mech is first to look at its harass-unit - The hellion. I agree with him all the way up until the Hellion part. The Hellion has such an established role in TvZ that I'd be wary of redesigning it. I think that the Viking and Banshee are much better targets for this. Viking's ground mode is completely meh, when it could be a core aspect of the unit. The only MU where Banshees are standard is TvT, as an opening and rarely enough a super late-game comp. Nothing of value would be lost by changing it. I think the main difference is just between the games really. Vultures are a great unit of course, but their offensive worth is so high because of BW expansion patterns, players being spread out across 4-6 bases with regularity and the likes. There are naturally holes to exploit that will open up. I like the Banshee to snipe priority targets and be a general nuisance in a mech army, it's pretty cool to watch when done well Well, looking at just TvZ, there's plenty of "natural holes to exploit" for Terran - Zerg has lots of expansions, an immobile army, and creep tumors all over the map. Banshees could be amazing at wreaking havoc in a situation like this, but for numerous reasons (probably the most important is how expensive they are?), Terrans are way too cautious with them for it to be consistently entertaining. Too often the Terran ignores how spread out the Zerg is and just ends up attacking SH head on with his Ravens. As for making SH more interesting - and I believe that they could be, and aren't, for the exact same reasons as SC2 tanks - the Zerg need a similarly mobile and microable unit. Lings and Mutas seem prime candidates, but Lings aren't interesting enough and Mutas... I dunno. I'd like to hear a Zerg's thoughts on the matter.
mutas are an amazing harrasment unit already
tho the porblem is with lings is that while ling runbys etc are great, the sheer abundance of mechs splash make them redundant :L i mean they trade with hellions depending on micro
that and lings are really only as microable as the unit your trying to kill with them :L
but the hellbat makes them literally worthless since you cant really/surround and kill the hellbats withought significant losses
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You are right, Banshees bring up a horror of mass DPS against their enemeys, they slice trough everything ( on the ground ). But they have also large weaknesses: They are very expensive, you need at least 2 starports with tech labs ( additional to the atleast one with reactor ) and they die very fast. Fungle and storm really hardcounter them, but also phoenix, mutas, corrupter and voids bring destroy em in no time.
When there is alot of SH on the field ( in ZvMech) Ravens are much more cost effective: Spores near the SH do good dmg against Banshees, some poped out infestors destroy em and ravens finally trade nothing ( energy ) against even more nothing ( locost ).
Locking at the Goody vs Hyun game atm: Do we really want a buffed mech?
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On October 09 2014 03:04 Foxxan wrote:
But vikings are a really core unit in tvp. Making the ground mode..Better would be quite bad for the balance since terran can mass vikings blindly of 2starport and if there are no colossus..They are still useful. Would make colossus bad as hell.
I can't remember the last time I saw a PvT that got up to two Starports and had no Colossus.
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EPT
