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On October 09 2014 03:32 Enigmasc wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2014 03:06 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 09 2014 02:49 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 09 2014 02:18 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 09 2014 01:21 Wombat_NI wrote:
I've potentially solved it. Give the Tank back its Brood War sound.
I'm being mostly facetious but it's so booming, so visceral, so terrifying. The sheer manliness of tanks with that noise will inspire Kespa's finest to go into mass hibernation, only re-emerging with a collection of refined and beautiful mech builds.
That or wait until a proper rejigging for LoTV to see its return.
Frankly, unpopular though it is to voice this, is Swarmhost play really that much different from BW-style mech? It lacks something of the leapfrogging nuance and is more static, but at its fundamental core I don't see a massive difference. It's not fundamentally different. Just different. The key to BW mech being so fun was the Vulture as much as the tank. Take out the Vulture, which was one of the most microable units in BW and very entertaining to watch, and what we have is similar to HOTS TvZ mech vs. SH. Hider says: Mech play is totally reliant on terran being able to harass in the midgame. That's why I believe the best way to fix mech is first to look at its harass-unit - The hellion. I agree with him all the way up until the Hellion part. The Hellion has such an established role in TvZ that I'd be wary of redesigning it. I think that the Viking and Banshee are much better targets for this. Viking's ground mode is completely meh, when it could be a core aspect of the unit. The only MU where Banshees are standard is TvT, as an opening and rarely enough a super late-game comp. Nothing of value would be lost by changing it. I think the main difference is just between the games really. Vultures are a great unit of course, but their offensive worth is so high because of BW expansion patterns, players being spread out across 4-6 bases with regularity and the likes. There are naturally holes to exploit that will open up. I like the Banshee to snipe priority targets and be a general nuisance in a mech army, it's pretty cool to watch when done well Well, looking at just TvZ, there's plenty of "natural holes to exploit" for Terran - Zerg has lots of expansions, an immobile army, and creep tumors all over the map. Banshees could be amazing at wreaking havoc in a situation like this, but for numerous reasons (probably the most important is how expensive they are?), Terrans are way too cautious with them for it to be consistently entertaining. Too often the Terran ignores how spread out the Zerg is and just ends up attacking SH head on with his Ravens. As for making SH more interesting - and I believe that they could be, and aren't, for the exact same reasons as SC2 tanks - the Zerg need a similarly mobile and microable unit. Lings and Mutas seem prime candidates, but Lings aren't interesting enough and Mutas... I dunno. I'd like to hear a Zerg's thoughts on the matter. mutas are an amazing harrasment unit already tho the porblem is with lings is that while ling runbys etc are great, the sheer abundance of mechs splash make them redundant :L i mean they trade with hellions depending on micro that and lings are really only as microable as the unit your trying to kill with them :L but the hellbat makes them literally worthless since you cant really/surround and kill the hellbats withought significant losses
I don't doubt that Mutas are good units, I doubt that they add anything really dynamic and interesting to the mech vs. SH relationship. Mech either seems to shrug them off completely (and go for a base trade which mech can win) or Mutas snowball the advantage into Zerg's favor INSANELY fast forcing mech to march his entire army back to base, whereupon the Mutas just get the hell out of dodge and go hit an expansion.
The dynamic seems very one-dimensional. I'm looking at BW tank+Vulture as an ideal and trying to see how SH+(units) can be made to work that way. I don't know that Zerg currently has any units with enough micro potential for that to be the case.
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The Hellion has such an established role in TvZ that I'd be wary of redesigning it. I think that the Viking and Banshee are much better targets for this
Well I was thinking more about the next expansion where larger changes can be made. I don't really think you can change alot in HOTS. I still wanna see a +damage vs shield solution for tanks just to shake up the meta a bit, even though it probably could result in some turtly play. But since TvP already isn't that interesting in the first place, there isn't that much to lose. And perhaps, it could incentivize bio/mech-play.
In LOTV, you can definitely keep the current Hellion-role and buff it as a harass units in the mid/late game (not early game). There are various types of solutions, and my preferred is to create an upgrade where Hellbat/Hellbat-transformation is almost instant, and then significantly nerf the Hellbat vs light units (so it doesn't hardcounter speedlings) and buff it a bit vs armored. This way, you can move your hellions into static defense, stalkers or immortals, collosus even, transform, and kill them.
So the thing about Banshee's and VIkings is that they are too gas-sensitive to be the primariy harass-oriented unit. Thus, then you will be playing almost a tank-less mech compositions and be all in your harass. I think it's important for the mech-player to be able to (A) harass efficiently and (B) Still win if his harass doens't do lots of damage.
That said, Banshee's and Vikings could obviously use changes as well, but I think mech will be gimmicky if you balance it around them. Mech + air is a cool composition, but it should be one that is voluntary as I don't think it will work if you force a mech player to always mix in Banshee's for instance.
Regarding Banshee's, it's a design flaw that banshee's are slower than overseers as it means that they get hardcountered by Mutalisks. Cloak late game, should be able to be used as an escape-mechanic, and thus it needs a speed-upgrade.
Viking transformation should just be faster - No doubt about that. Moreover, I prefer the role where the AA vs armored unit is ground (as in the case of Goliath), and Vikings become more of a mobile suport-unit vs Mutalisks (with better moving shot and higher damage vs light). However, such a change will require lots of other changes to fit the gameplay around that.
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On October 09 2014 03:48 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +The Hellion has such an established role in TvZ that I'd be wary of redesigning it. I think that the Viking and Banshee are much better targets for this So the thing about Banshee's and VIkings is that they are too gas-sensitive to be the primariy harass-oriented unit. Thus, then you will be playing almost a tank-less mech compositions and be all in your harass. I think it's important for the mech-player to be able to (A) harass efficiently and (B) Still win if his harass doens't do lots of damage.
That's why I'd really like to see them try a Banshee that's more of a mineral sink and less of a gas sink.
I agree that the best (and certainly first) change they should make to Vikings would be to make them transform faster. This would make them a lot more useful in TvP and TvZ without making them stronger in either.
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On October 08 2014 02:07 ( bush wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2014 01:52 Ouija wrote:
If blizzard actually buffed mech vs toss it would become the most OP unit comp. Mech armies can already roll through protoss armies with 0 trouble at all. The meching player just needs to be on top of their scouting and have the correct composition to deal with whatever the protoss is building. No, just no. There are people playing this game 12 hours a day everyday and they don't attemp to mech vs protoss, and you think that is because they don't have the proper scout to handle their opponents strategy?
Rain lost to a top KR terran on ladder vs mech. Big final engagement he got rolled over. If terran can turtle to survive protoss early busts with immortals archons (which is much easier with the new widow mine), lategame mech is very very viable in pvt.
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On October 09 2014 03:57 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2014 03:48 Hider wrote:The Hellion has such an established role in TvZ that I'd be wary of redesigning it. I think that the Viking and Banshee are much better targets for this So the thing about Banshee's and VIkings is that they are too gas-sensitive to be the primariy harass-oriented unit. Thus, then you will be playing almost a tank-less mech compositions and be all in your harass. I think it's important for the mech-player to be able to (A) harass efficiently and (B) Still win if his harass doens't do lots of damage. That's why I'd really like to see them try a Banshee that's more of a mineral sink and less of a gas sink. I agree that the best (and certainly first) change they should make to Vikings would be to make them transform faster. This would make them a lot more useful in TvP and TvZ without making them stronger in either.
Yeh I suggested Starbow to do that becasue the Vulture is pretty lacklusters a harass-unit vs Zerg, and a 175/50 Banshee (or so) with similar speed as Mutalisks (in Starbow) could make mech-play less turtly in the midgame.
I guess they could consider trying that in patch in HOTS, but then they will also need to give it a speed-upgrade so it moves at like 3.4, and hmm... maybe that will break TvT?
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Im literally rolling over the floor laughing that terran is STILL complaining after this season.
My god. you guys REALLY dont want to ever lose do you?
Buff terran mech? cuz bio mine isnt strong enough already? please.
The importance of HT openers ISNT 'because you can get em later' its so the terran HAS TO SCOUT and understand what kind of macro build he should counter, instead of blind counter the only obvious 1 macro build toss can do and then make it a standard build cuz it kills protoss before macro.
Mech IS perfectly viable. But what you guys keep saying is this:
"You cant win before 20 minutes so i dont like it"
Its a MACRO orientated style, Split map scenario kind of style. Unbreakable walls kind of style. NOT harrass.
I love how people dont realise where the strenghts of mech are.
Its NOT in harrass. Because harrassing = bio.
Its making it to the lategame with being as greedy as possible.
Funny how you guys really really dont understand the earlier you go mech the greedier you can be because small groups of units CANNOT counter WELL positioned tanks.
Mech = W/M defensive posture with turrets.
Mech =/= attack with hellions and hope you kill 20 probes.
Mech = Tanks in defensive never moving postures
Mech =/= banshee harrass and hope you kill 20 probes.
Mech = banking money having 10+ CC's with no SCV lategame.
Mech = create an immortal army composition (wich is totally possible aslong as you eventually get to Viking ghost vs Tempest immortal.
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On October 09 2014 04:01 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2014 03:57 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 09 2014 03:48 Hider wrote:The Hellion has such an established role in TvZ that I'd be wary of redesigning it. I think that the Viking and Banshee are much better targets for this So the thing about Banshee's and VIkings is that they are too gas-sensitive to be the primariy harass-oriented unit. Thus, then you will be playing almost a tank-less mech compositions and be all in your harass. I think it's important for the mech-player to be able to (A) harass efficiently and (B) Still win if his harass doens't do lots of damage. That's why I'd really like to see them try a Banshee that's more of a mineral sink and less of a gas sink. I agree that the best (and certainly first) change they should make to Vikings would be to make them transform faster. This would make them a lot more useful in TvP and TvZ without making them stronger in either. Yeh I suggested Starbow to do that becasue the Vulture is pretty lacklusters a harass-unit vs Zerg, and a 175/50 Banshee (or so) with similar speed as Mutalisks (in Starbow) could make mech-play less turtly in the midgame. I guess they could consider trying that in patch in HOTS, but then they will also need to give it a speed-upgrade so it moves at like 3.4, and hmm... maybe that will break TvT?
While i think ideas like this are really cool, i think that we have finally started to get a good balance going in HOTS, and i'm so scared to mess that up with another patch.
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On October 09 2014 04:05 partydude89 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2014 04:01 Hider wrote:On October 09 2014 03:57 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 09 2014 03:48 Hider wrote:The Hellion has such an established role in TvZ that I'd be wary of redesigning it. I think that the Viking and Banshee are much better targets for this So the thing about Banshee's and VIkings is that they are too gas-sensitive to be the primariy harass-oriented unit. Thus, then you will be playing almost a tank-less mech compositions and be all in your harass. I think it's important for the mech-player to be able to (A) harass efficiently and (B) Still win if his harass doens't do lots of damage. That's why I'd really like to see them try a Banshee that's more of a mineral sink and less of a gas sink. I agree that the best (and certainly first) change they should make to Vikings would be to make them transform faster. This would make them a lot more useful in TvP and TvZ without making them stronger in either. Yeh I suggested Starbow to do that becasue the Vulture is pretty lacklusters a harass-unit vs Zerg, and a 175/50 Banshee (or so) with similar speed as Mutalisks (in Starbow) could make mech-play less turtly in the midgame. I guess they could consider trying that in patch in HOTS, but then they will also need to give it a speed-upgrade so it moves at like 3.4, and hmm... maybe that will break TvT? While i think ideas like this are really cool, i think that we have finally started to get a good balance going in HOTS, and i'm so scared to mess that up with another patch.
We do have PTR...
On October 09 2014 04:03 Eraz0rZ wrote:
Mech IS perfectly viable. But what you guys keep saying is this:
"You cant win before 20 minutes so i dont like it"
Its a MACRO orientated style, Split map scenario kind of style. Unbreakable walls kind of style. NOT harrass.
I love how people dont realise where the strenghts of mech are.
Its NOT in harrass. Because harrassing = bio.
I probably shouldn't bother with someone under 50 posts claiming Terrans are balance whining after the first season in over a year where Terran wasn't great but didn't suck... when they ask for an improved mech...
But what the hell.
Have you considered the possibility that people don't want mech to play the way HOTS mech plays? Have you considered the possibility that people have been explicitly asking for mech that plays more like BW mech since WOL? Have you considered that this is why the entire community came together to make sure the Warhound never saw the light of release day?
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On October 09 2014 04:05 partydude89 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2014 04:01 Hider wrote:On October 09 2014 03:57 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 09 2014 03:48 Hider wrote:The Hellion has such an established role in TvZ that I'd be wary of redesigning it. I think that the Viking and Banshee are much better targets for this So the thing about Banshee's and VIkings is that they are too gas-sensitive to be the primariy harass-oriented unit. Thus, then you will be playing almost a tank-less mech compositions and be all in your harass. I think it's important for the mech-player to be able to (A) harass efficiently and (B) Still win if his harass doens't do lots of damage. That's why I'd really like to see them try a Banshee that's more of a mineral sink and less of a gas sink. I agree that the best (and certainly first) change they should make to Vikings would be to make them transform faster. This would make them a lot more useful in TvP and TvZ without making them stronger in either. Yeh I suggested Starbow to do that becasue the Vulture is pretty lacklusters a harass-unit vs Zerg, and a 175/50 Banshee (or so) with similar speed as Mutalisks (in Starbow) could make mech-play less turtly in the midgame. I guess they could consider trying that in patch in HOTS, but then they will also need to give it a speed-upgrade so it moves at like 3.4, and hmm... maybe that will break TvT? While i think ideas like this are really cool, i think that we have finally started to get a good balance going in HOTS, and i'm so scared to mess that up with another patch.
I think we can buff mech just adding some +vs shield damage here and there, I don't think buffing mech in TvZ is too big of problem, raven+SH is the problem, mech without them is pretty nice.
Now TvT is were the problem is, mech is already strong in the TvT so all the changes made (if any) should be small and well directed to the specific problems.
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On October 09 2014 03:43 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2014 03:04 Foxxan wrote:
But vikings are a really core unit in tvp. Making the ground mode..Better would be quite bad for the balance since terran can mass vikings blindly of 2starport and if there are no colossus..They are still useful. Would make colossus bad as hell.
I can't remember the last time I saw a PvT that got up to two Starports and had no Colossus.
Doesnt matter since its irrelevant right now.
I am talking about if the viking has their ground mode alot better. Available on its own.
A core unit in mech etc
You said you wanted the ground mode to fill the mech role.
It has its drawbacks since building many vikings is good even against none-colossus play. So if toss decides he will make colossus, he has the potential running into mass vikings which will melt them.
Just a concern, thats all.
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On October 09 2014 04:03 Eraz0rZ wrote:
Im literally rolling over the floor laughing that terran is STILL complaining after this season.
My god. you guys REALLY dont want to ever lose do you?
Buff terran mech? cuz bio mine isnt strong enough already? please.
The importance of HT openers ISNT 'because you can get em later' its so the terran HAS TO SCOUT and understand what kind of macro build he should counter, instead of blind counter the only obvious 1 macro build toss can do and then make it a standard build cuz it kills protoss before macro.
Mech IS perfectly viable. But what you guys keep saying is this:
"You cant win before 20 minutes so i dont like it"
Its a MACRO orientated style, Split map scenario kind of style. Unbreakable walls kind of style. NOT harrass.
I love how people dont realise where the strenghts of mech are.
Its NOT in harrass. Because harrassing = bio.
Its making it to the lategame with being as greedy as possible.
Funny how you guys really really dont understand the earlier you go mech the greedier you can be because small groups of units CANNOT counter WELL positioned tanks.
Mech = W/M defensive posture with turrets.
Mech =/= attack with hellions and hope you kill 20 probes.
Mech = Tanks in defensive never moving postures
Mech =/= banshee harrass and hope you kill 20 probes.
Mech = banking money having 10+ CC's with no SCV lategame.
Mech = create an immortal army composition (wich is totally possible aslong as you eventually get to Viking ghost vs Tempest immortal.
So what ure saying is that mech is a build designed to give Protoss enough time to macro up to Tempests, Carriers and Storm all of which completely shuts it down? Ok Im sure we can all agree that thats exactly what it is now and why it doesnt work.
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On October 09 2014 04:35 FanaticCZ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2014 04:03 Eraz0rZ wrote:
Im literally rolling over the floor laughing that terran is STILL complaining after this season.
My god. you guys REALLY dont want to ever lose do you?
Buff terran mech? cuz bio mine isnt strong enough already? please.
The importance of HT openers ISNT 'because you can get em later' its so the terran HAS TO SCOUT and understand what kind of macro build he should counter, instead of blind counter the only obvious 1 macro build toss can do and then make it a standard build cuz it kills protoss before macro.
Mech IS perfectly viable. But what you guys keep saying is this:
"You cant win before 20 minutes so i dont like it"
Its a MACRO orientated style, Split map scenario kind of style. Unbreakable walls kind of style. NOT harrass.
I love how people dont realise where the strenghts of mech are.
Its NOT in harrass. Because harrassing = bio.
Its making it to the lategame with being as greedy as possible.
Funny how you guys really really dont understand the earlier you go mech the greedier you can be because small groups of units CANNOT counter WELL positioned tanks.
Mech = W/M defensive posture with turrets.
Mech =/= attack with hellions and hope you kill 20 probes.
Mech = Tanks in defensive never moving postures
Mech =/= banshee harrass and hope you kill 20 probes.
Mech = banking money having 10+ CC's with no SCV lategame.
Mech = create an immortal army composition (wich is totally possible aslong as you eventually get to Viking ghost vs Tempest immortal.
N So what ure saying is that mech is a build designed to give Protoss enough time to macro up to Tempests, Carriers and Storm all of which completely shuts it down? Ok Im sure we can all agree that thats exactly what it is now and why it doesnt work.
Late game terran destroys protoss sorry. Pdd makes tempests absolutely useless
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On October 09 2014 04:52 Extenz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2014 04:35 FanaticCZ wrote:On October 09 2014 04:03 Eraz0rZ wrote:
Im literally rolling over the floor laughing that terran is STILL complaining after this season.
My god. you guys REALLY dont want to ever lose do you?
Buff terran mech? cuz bio mine isnt strong enough already? please.
The importance of HT openers ISNT 'because you can get em later' its so the terran HAS TO SCOUT and understand what kind of macro build he should counter, instead of blind counter the only obvious 1 macro build toss can do and then make it a standard build cuz it kills protoss before macro.
Mech IS perfectly viable. But what you guys keep saying is this:
"You cant win before 20 minutes so i dont like it"
Its a MACRO orientated style, Split map scenario kind of style. Unbreakable walls kind of style. NOT harrass.
I love how people dont realise where the strenghts of mech are.
Its NOT in harrass. Because harrassing = bio.
Its making it to the lategame with being as greedy as possible.
Funny how you guys really really dont understand the earlier you go mech the greedier you can be because small groups of units CANNOT counter WELL positioned tanks.
Mech = W/M defensive posture with turrets.
Mech =/= attack with hellions and hope you kill 20 probes.
Mech = Tanks in defensive never moving postures
Mech =/= banshee harrass and hope you kill 20 probes.
Mech = banking money having 10+ CC's with no SCV lategame.
Mech = create an immortal army composition (wich is totally possible aslong as you eventually get to Viking ghost vs Tempest immortal.
N So what ure saying is that mech is a build designed to give Protoss enough time to macro up to Tempests, Carriers and Storm all of which completely shuts it down? Ok Im sure we can all agree that thats exactly what it is now and why it doesnt work. Late game terran destroys protoss sorry. Pdd makes tempests absolutely useless
yeah...in a unit test map ... dont see how u could switch to mass Raven in a real game (Bbyong vs Rain comes to mind) without P taking half of the map or pretty much killing u in the process with ground army.
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On October 09 2014 04:13 pure.Wasted wrote:
Have you considered the possibility that people don't want mech to play the way HOTS mech plays? Have you considered the possibility that people have been explicitly asking for mech that plays more like BW mech since WOL? Have you considered that this is why the entire community came together to make sure the Warhound never saw the light of release day?
Opposing the Warhound had nothing to do with Brood War mech... that unit could 1A into literally anything and win cost efficiently.
It was a dumb fucking unit.
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Hmm, I've been thinking about the Siege tank. In an age where Siege Tanks shoot around 1-2 shells per fight, they do the same, if not less damage than a widow mine shot. The widow mine is more difficult to deal with, requires detection, while tanks are easy to deal with. Widow mines shoot air. Widow mines are much cheaper. If you consider the general stance of a terran army, with a small active vanguard + a deep line of defense to prevent chasing, widow mines fulfill the role of auxiliary splash much better than a siege tank does. There is really no reason for why one would invest in tanks instead of widow mines, especially in the current meta. There might be a scope for a couple of forward siege tanks, but I don't really find them that desirable considering a strike force of a couple of marauders do the job just as well.
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On October 09 2014 04:57 FanaticCZ wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2014 04:52 Extenz wrote:On October 09 2014 04:35 FanaticCZ wrote:On October 09 2014 04:03 Eraz0rZ wrote:
Im literally rolling over the floor laughing that terran is STILL complaining after this season.
My god. you guys REALLY dont want to ever lose do you?
Buff terran mech? cuz bio mine isnt strong enough already? please.
The importance of HT openers ISNT 'because you can get em later' its so the terran HAS TO SCOUT and understand what kind of macro build he should counter, instead of blind counter the only obvious 1 macro build toss can do and then make it a standard build cuz it kills protoss before macro.
Mech IS perfectly viable. But what you guys keep saying is this:
"You cant win before 20 minutes so i dont like it"
Its a MACRO orientated style, Split map scenario kind of style. Unbreakable walls kind of style. NOT harrass.
I love how people dont realise where the strenghts of mech are.
Its NOT in harrass. Because harrassing = bio.
Its making it to the lategame with being as greedy as possible.
Funny how you guys really really dont understand the earlier you go mech the greedier you can be because small groups of units CANNOT counter WELL positioned tanks.
Mech = W/M defensive posture with turrets.
Mech =/= attack with hellions and hope you kill 20 probes.
Mech = Tanks in defensive never moving postures
Mech =/= banshee harrass and hope you kill 20 probes.
Mech = banking money having 10+ CC's with no SCV lategame.
Mech = create an immortal army composition (wich is totally possible aslong as you eventually get to Viking ghost vs Tempest immortal.
N So what ure saying is that mech is a build designed to give Protoss enough time to macro up to Tempests, Carriers and Storm all of which completely shuts it down? Ok Im sure we can all agree that thats exactly what it is now and why it doesnt work. Late game terran destroys protoss sorry. Pdd makes tempests absolutely useless yeah...in a unit test map ... dont see how u could switch to mass Raven in a real game (Bbyong vs Rain comes to mind) without P taking half of the map or pretty much killing u in the process with ground army.
A full mech Terran army CAN wreck a Protoss army in a test map though. This is a point a lot of people don't get. They see mech get crushed in the midgame or early late game and say "it's not viable, mech units are shit." Well, those are two separate things.
The reason mech isn't viable (as a standard professionally used composition) is because it doesn't have the flexibility to econ as fast as it needs to to keep up with a Protoss, since it's hard for mech to move out early (and the Protoss can just take 2 more bases).
Perhaps "making mech viable" in LotV will be about bridging that gap between mid and late game where Terran can finally get the Thor/Raven/Viking/Ghost/Hellbat composition it wants.
With good control that army is very scary. You can easily die to it in HotS if you sit back too long and let the Terran match you in macro.
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On October 09 2014 05:04 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2014 04:13 pure.Wasted wrote:
Have you considered the possibility that people don't want mech to play the way HOTS mech plays? Have you considered the possibility that people have been explicitly asking for mech that plays more like BW mech since WOL? Have you considered that this is why the entire community came together to make sure the Warhound never saw the light of release day? Opposing the Warhound had nothing to do with Brood War mech... that unit could 1A into literally anything and win cost efficiently. It was a dumb fucking unit.
You understand that "1A into literally anything and win cost efficiently" can be solved by nerfing its stats, right? Less attack, less HP, less armor, different damage type, slower movement, make it smaller so it's easier to AOE, make it bigger so it has less damage output per square, take away its stupid auto-stun?
Any and all of these things could have been attempted if the only problem was that it was just too cost efficient. It was not just too cost efficient. It was HORRENDOUSLY DESIGNED. Nobody in their right mind wanted that trash in the Factory regardless of its stats, because it would have turned mech into Bio 0.5.
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On October 09 2014 03:48 pure.Wasted wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2014 03:32 Enigmasc wrote:On October 09 2014 03:06 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 09 2014 02:49 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 09 2014 02:18 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 09 2014 01:21 Wombat_NI wrote:
I've potentially solved it. Give the Tank back its Brood War sound.
I'm being mostly facetious but it's so booming, so visceral, so terrifying. The sheer manliness of tanks with that noise will inspire Kespa's finest to go into mass hibernation, only re-emerging with a collection of refined and beautiful mech builds.
That or wait until a proper rejigging for LoTV to see its return.
Frankly, unpopular though it is to voice this, is Swarmhost play really that much different from BW-style mech? It lacks something of the leapfrogging nuance and is more static, but at its fundamental core I don't see a massive difference. It's not fundamentally different. Just different. The key to BW mech being so fun was the Vulture as much as the tank. Take out the Vulture, which was one of the most microable units in BW and very entertaining to watch, and what we have is similar to HOTS TvZ mech vs. SH. Hider says: Mech play is totally reliant on terran being able to harass in the midgame. That's why I believe the best way to fix mech is first to look at its harass-unit - The hellion. I agree with him all the way up until the Hellion part. The Hellion has such an established role in TvZ that I'd be wary of redesigning it. I think that the Viking and Banshee are much better targets for this. Viking's ground mode is completely meh, when it could be a core aspect of the unit. The only MU where Banshees are standard is TvT, as an opening and rarely enough a super late-game comp. Nothing of value would be lost by changing it. I think the main difference is just between the games really. Vultures are a great unit of course, but their offensive worth is so high because of BW expansion patterns, players being spread out across 4-6 bases with regularity and the likes. There are naturally holes to exploit that will open up. I like the Banshee to snipe priority targets and be a general nuisance in a mech army, it's pretty cool to watch when done well Well, looking at just TvZ, there's plenty of "natural holes to exploit" for Terran - Zerg has lots of expansions, an immobile army, and creep tumors all over the map. Banshees could be amazing at wreaking havoc in a situation like this, but for numerous reasons (probably the most important is how expensive they are?), Terrans are way too cautious with them for it to be consistently entertaining. Too often the Terran ignores how spread out the Zerg is and just ends up attacking SH head on with his Ravens. As for making SH more interesting - and I believe that they could be, and aren't, for the exact same reasons as SC2 tanks - the Zerg need a similarly mobile and microable unit. Lings and Mutas seem prime candidates, but Lings aren't interesting enough and Mutas... I dunno. I'd like to hear a Zerg's thoughts on the matter. mutas are an amazing harrasment unit already tho the porblem is with lings is that while ling runbys etc are great, the sheer abundance of mechs splash make them redundant :L i mean they trade with hellions depending on micro that and lings are really only as microable as the unit your trying to kill with them :L but the hellbat makes them literally worthless since you cant really/surround and kill the hellbats withought significant losses I don't doubt that Mutas are good units, I doubt that they add anything really dynamic and interesting to the mech vs. SH relationship. Mech either seems to shrug them off completely (and go for a base trade which mech can win) or Mutas snowball the advantage into Zerg's favor INSANELY fast forcing mech to march his entire army back to base, whereupon the Mutas just get the hell out of dodge and go hit an expansion. The dynamic seems very one-dimensional. I'm looking at BW tank+Vulture as an ideal and trying to see how SH+(units) can be made to work that way. I don't know that Zerg currently has any units with enough micro potential for that to be the case.
This is really not very true. Most of the time in turtlemech TvZ, swarmhosts put on constant pressure requiring that tanks be placed well in various places around the map (especially when the bases are more spread out), mutas fly around and pick off everything they can, and try to draw the air fleet out of position. Vipers can swoop in and blinding cloud tanks when the air fleet is pulled out of position, or infestors can fungal/IT for friendly fire if Zerg can outmultitask Terran. Queens make sure everything stays alive and, along with spores, prevent the air fleet from straight up attacking the swarmhosts. This is what happens a lot of the time in very high level swarmhost-muta (so not Avilo games, whose multitasking is weaker and would be crushed by Soo, Solar, DRG, or even Snute.) It often ends up being a very dynamic matchup if the two players are evenly matched. Check out recent TvZs from Major for examples, or watch Supernova, Journey, or ForGG (sometimes, when he goes mech) stream.
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On October 09 2014 05:43 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2014 03:48 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 09 2014 03:32 Enigmasc wrote:On October 09 2014 03:06 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 09 2014 02:49 Wombat_NI wrote:On October 09 2014 02:18 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 09 2014 01:21 Wombat_NI wrote:
I've potentially solved it. Give the Tank back its Brood War sound.
I'm being mostly facetious but it's so booming, so visceral, so terrifying. The sheer manliness of tanks with that noise will inspire Kespa's finest to go into mass hibernation, only re-emerging with a collection of refined and beautiful mech builds.
That or wait until a proper rejigging for LoTV to see its return.
Frankly, unpopular though it is to voice this, is Swarmhost play really that much different from BW-style mech? It lacks something of the leapfrogging nuance and is more static, but at its fundamental core I don't see a massive difference. It's not fundamentally different. Just different. The key to BW mech being so fun was the Vulture as much as the tank. Take out the Vulture, which was one of the most microable units in BW and very entertaining to watch, and what we have is similar to HOTS TvZ mech vs. SH. Hider says: Mech play is totally reliant on terran being able to harass in the midgame. That's why I believe the best way to fix mech is first to look at its harass-unit - The hellion. I agree with him all the way up until the Hellion part. The Hellion has such an established role in TvZ that I'd be wary of redesigning it. I think that the Viking and Banshee are much better targets for this. Viking's ground mode is completely meh, when it could be a core aspect of the unit. The only MU where Banshees are standard is TvT, as an opening and rarely enough a super late-game comp. Nothing of value would be lost by changing it. I think the main difference is just between the games really. Vultures are a great unit of course, but their offensive worth is so high because of BW expansion patterns, players being spread out across 4-6 bases with regularity and the likes. There are naturally holes to exploit that will open up. I like the Banshee to snipe priority targets and be a general nuisance in a mech army, it's pretty cool to watch when done well Well, looking at just TvZ, there's plenty of "natural holes to exploit" for Terran - Zerg has lots of expansions, an immobile army, and creep tumors all over the map. Banshees could be amazing at wreaking havoc in a situation like this, but for numerous reasons (probably the most important is how expensive they are?), Terrans are way too cautious with them for it to be consistently entertaining. Too often the Terran ignores how spread out the Zerg is and just ends up attacking SH head on with his Ravens. As for making SH more interesting - and I believe that they could be, and aren't, for the exact same reasons as SC2 tanks - the Zerg need a similarly mobile and microable unit. Lings and Mutas seem prime candidates, but Lings aren't interesting enough and Mutas... I dunno. I'd like to hear a Zerg's thoughts on the matter. mutas are an amazing harrasment unit already tho the porblem is with lings is that while ling runbys etc are great, the sheer abundance of mechs splash make them redundant :L i mean they trade with hellions depending on micro that and lings are really only as microable as the unit your trying to kill with them :L but the hellbat makes them literally worthless since you cant really/surround and kill the hellbats withought significant losses I don't doubt that Mutas are good units, I doubt that they add anything really dynamic and interesting to the mech vs. SH relationship. Mech either seems to shrug them off completely (and go for a base trade which mech can win) or Mutas snowball the advantage into Zerg's favor INSANELY fast forcing mech to march his entire army back to base, whereupon the Mutas just get the hell out of dodge and go hit an expansion. The dynamic seems very one-dimensional. I'm looking at BW tank+Vulture as an ideal and trying to see how SH+(units) can be made to work that way. I don't know that Zerg currently has any units with enough micro potential for that to be the case. This is really not very true. Most of the time in turtlemech TvZ, swarmhosts put on constant pressure requiring that tanks be placed well in various places around the map (especially when the bases are more spread out), mutas fly around and pick off everything they can, and try to draw the air fleet out of position. Vipers can swoop in and blinding cloud tanks when the air fleet is pulled out of position, or infestors can fungal/IT for friendly fire if Zerg can outmultitask Terran. Queens make sure everything stays alive and, along with spores, prevent the air fleet from straight up attacking the swarmhosts. This is what happens a lot of the time in very high level swarmhost-muta (so not Avilo games, whose multitasking is weaker and would be crushed by Soo, Solar, DRG, or even Snute.) It often ends up being a very dynamic matchup if the two players are evenly matched. Check out recent TvZs from Major for examples, or watch Supernova, Journey, or ForGG (sometimes, when he goes mech) stream.
Would you happen to have links available for any of these games? I'd love to take a look.
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On October 09 2014 04:32 Foxxan wrote:Show nested quote +On October 09 2014 03:43 pure.Wasted wrote:On October 09 2014 03:04 Foxxan wrote:
But vikings are a really core unit in tvp. Making the ground mode..Better would be quite bad for the balance since terran can mass vikings blindly of 2starport and if there are no colossus..They are still useful. Would make colossus bad as hell.
I can't remember the last time I saw a PvT that got up to two Starports and had no Colossus. Doesnt matter since its irrelevant right now. I am talking about if the viking has their ground mode alot better. Available on its own. A core unit in mech etc You said you wanted the ground mode to fill the mech role. It has its drawbacks since building many vikings is good even against none-colossus play. So if toss decides he will make colossus, he has the potential running into mass vikings which will melt them. Just a concern, thats all.
It would actually be fine if they simply keep the upgrades to buff the vikings at the Fusion Core and have a high gas cost, its definitely doable.
However, I feel a better fix would be a shift in focus on what the buffs should be. One of the problems with mech is unit replenishment. Without warp ins (to front load the build time after getting max) or larva, building reinforcements takes a lot of time. bio is fine since its cheap, but spending 5 minutes rebuilding tanks and vikings and thors is both boring to watch and not cost effective. Fusion Core upgrades to reduce cost and build time of Hellions and Vikings would be a way to allow mech players to have more "cost effective" units with which to trade with enemy troops.
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EPT
