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On October 06 2014 20:15 Dingodile wrote:
Well with my suggestion 1) zerg can scout at terran natural if there are hellbats so zerg does know now not to play greedy as usual and 2) hellbat push comes 1min later (due to transformation servos upgrade time) so zerg has a better conclusion that terran has most likely upgraded the transformation servos).
It's more predictable than what we have now from zerg perspective.
Terran is not going to upgrade Trafo Servos. Ever. We had that, it didn't happen. It's clunky, takes too long and costs too much. Also it is not a real problem in terms of power of the hellion-hellbat. If you know on time it is coming you can basically just choose the right techs/units early enough and just win.
The game in general has a serious scouting issue that makes it very easy to either deny scouts by killing them before they see something, or just building stuff where it is hard/unlikely to get scouted. But here it becomes a question of philosophy. Do you want information-based play or don't you want it.
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On October 06 2014 20:14 Extenz wrote:
The problem with terran is that it's too forgiving; widow mine kills 10 units/workers? cool you win, doesn't do anything? np you lost 75/25. Your pressure didn't do enough damage or didn't kill the opponent? Np your units are easy to replenish, how often does terran completely fail a hellion drop marine push just to transition out easily?
Also PDD is a mistake.
Wow, what a great piece of text! You really convinced me with the excellent nuancing you put in your statements, man!
Mine kills 10 workers, Zerg made a mistake.
Mine dies without doing a thing, that's a bummer for Terran. He lost time, resources and a precious AOE source.
Pressure didn't do enough damage? Terran is now behind.
Terran never smoothly, unscathedly transitions out of failed pressure.
Just to compare:
The problem with Zerg is that it's too forgiving; Baneling kills 10 units/workers? cool you win, doesn't do anything? np you lost 50/25. Your pressure didn't do enough damage or didn't kill the opponent? Np your units are easy to replenish, building faster and cheaper than any T unit how often does Zerg completely fail a Ling Baneling all in push just to transition out easily?
Also Swarm Host is a mistake.
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On October 06 2014 20:15 Dingodile wrote:
Well with my suggestion 1) zerg can scout at terran natural if there are hellbats so zerg does know now not to play greedy as usual and 2) hellbat push comes 1min later (due to transformation servos upgrade time) so zerg has a better conclusion that terran has most likely upgraded the transformation servos).
It's more predictable than what we have now from zerg perspective.
Zerg doesn't need to spot the Armory.
There's multiple tells, really.
A) Over 6 hellions are produced
B) 2nd gas is taken and no banshees are started
C) 3rd CC is delayed
D) Marines and/or Medivacs move out
E) Terran heavilly tries to retain the initial Hellions, not taking any risk.
When in doubt, throw down a baneling nest or roach warren. It's not that expensive.
We barely see this build in pro play anymore because good Zergs read the tells and adapt.
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On October 06 2014 20:28 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 20:14 Extenz wrote:
The problem with terran is that it's too forgiving; widow mine kills 10 units/workers? cool you win, doesn't do anything? np you lost 75/25. Your pressure didn't do enough damage or didn't kill the opponent? Np your units are easy to replenish, how often does terran completely fail a hellion drop marine push just to transition out easily?
Also PDD is a mistake. Wow, what a great piece of text! You really convinced me with the excellent nuancing you put in your statements, man! Mine kills 10 workers, Zerg made a mistake. Mine dies without doing a thing, that's a bummer for Terran. He lost time, resources and a precious AOE source. Pressure didn't do enough damage? Terran is now behind. Terran never smoothly, unscathedly transitions out of failed pressure.
I laughed a bit. Also I forgot to add that when you have 3 bases you can lose any amount of workers and it doesnt matter. The only race that can lose 20 + workers and still win.
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On October 06 2014 20:36 Extenz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 20:28 SC2Toastie wrote:On October 06 2014 20:14 Extenz wrote:
The problem with terran is that it's too forgiving; widow mine kills 10 units/workers? cool you win, doesn't do anything? np you lost 75/25. Your pressure didn't do enough damage or didn't kill the opponent? Np your units are easy to replenish, how often does terran completely fail a hellion drop marine push just to transition out easily?
Also PDD is a mistake. Wow, what a great piece of text! You really convinced me with the excellent nuancing you put in your statements, man! Mine kills 10 workers, Zerg made a mistake. Mine dies without doing a thing, that's a bummer for Terran. He lost time, resources and a precious AOE source. Pressure didn't do enough damage? Terran is now behind. Terran never smoothly, unscathedly transitions out of failed pressure. I laughed a bit. Also I forgot to add that when you have 3 bases you can lose any amount of workers and it doesnt matter. The only race that can lose 20 + workers and still win.
Your not constructive.
On October 06 2014 20:28 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 20:14 Extenz wrote:
The problem with terran is that it's too forgiving; widow mine kills 10 units/workers? cool you win, doesn't do anything? np you lost 75/25. Your pressure didn't do enough damage or didn't kill the opponent? Np your units are easy to replenish, how often does terran completely fail a hellion drop marine push just to transition out easily?
Also PDD is a mistake. Wow, what a great piece of text! You really convinced me with the excellent nuancing you put in your statements, man! Mine kills 10 workers, Zerg made a mistake. Mine dies without doing a thing, that's a bummer for Terran. He lost time, resources and a precious AOE source. Pressure didn't do enough damage? Terran is now behind. Terran never smoothly, unscathedly transitions out of failed pressure. Just to compare: The problem with Zerg is that it's too forgiving; Baneling kills 10 units/workers? cool you win, doesn't do anything? np you lost 50/25. Your pressure didn't do enough damage or didn't kill the opponent? Np your units are easy to replenish, building faster and cheaper than any T unit how often does Zerg completely fail a Ling Baneling all in push just to transition out easily? Also Swarm Host is a mistake.
Just for the fun of it (i'm not that serious)
- WM don't die after shooting.
- Banelings don't shoot air units (i would love that)
- A banelings cost the same price as a WM (you have to build the ling).
- Fail a baneling bust and you are DEAD (because you have no army left :p). Fail a WM drop... well you can pick 'em up. But you are not that far behind.
- Swarm host are a mistake. :p
To be more on the topic, the problem with T push is that at low level it's extremly hard to play against, cause one mismicro and you have 30lings dead and 6hellion in your base. You counter push and a mine get the full lock shot of the month and kill all your banes. (or like the splash kill your observer for protoss).
Because at low level it's hard to not make a mistake 
For the smooth transition it's the : "i make a reapear, then 2, then 6hellion, then banshee with cloack or not". If repear die, guy push with 1reaper and 6hellions. If the 6hellion dies, you still get the banshee.
I assume that's what he want to say. But it's true for Protoss too. Because builds aren't depend on army like Z kind of do (i'm talking larva).
On October 06 2014 20:31 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 20:15 Dingodile wrote:
Well with my suggestion 1) zerg can scout at terran natural if there are hellbats so zerg does know now not to play greedy as usual and 2) hellbat push comes 1min later (due to transformation servos upgrade time) so zerg has a better conclusion that terran has most likely upgraded the transformation servos).
It's more predictable than what we have now from zerg perspective. Zerg doesn't need to spot the Armory. There's multiple tells, really. A) Over 6 hellions are produced B) 2nd gas is taken and no banshees are started C) 3rd CC is delayed D) Marines and/or Medivacs move out E) Terran heavilly tries to retain the initial Hellions, not taking any risk. When in doubt, throw down a baneling nest or roach warren. It's not that expensive. We barely see this build in pro play anymore because good Zergs read the tells and adapt.
This is really good information.
A) More than 6hellions can mean mech no ? (or will the guy push anyway if he is doing mech ?). Do we need to lookout for marine count ?
B) when marines are positionned, you just can't scout the main before ovie speed. (map depend and number of pos dependant too)
C) Same, how do you know when ovie is denied ? (if the guy kept it in his main for exemple).
D) Well that's a little too late (cause if you build a warren and need banes...)
E) Do you mean that a bio player will try to sacrifice the hellions for drones ?
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I don't see how a Terran can lose a Bo5+ right now against an equal opponent. A couple of tricky builds will win 1-2 games, but otherwise Z and P have to play a very predictable game against T.
Personally for me it's Blink+Colossus or death on the ladder. It's basically the only thing you can do now. San tried to go Templar and got wrecked by Bunny the other day...even MC and Parting are getting wrecked going HT.
PvT just feels like punishment lately.
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@FFW_Rude
But the number of worker kills is highly irrelevant due to build times for workers.
Zerg is hurt the least by losing workers while Terran is hurt the most. Larva + Chrono Boost allows early and late game loss of workers to be more easily replenished compared to Terran production. Meaning harass effectiveness is gauged very very differently from matchup to matchup.
I've seen Zerg losing 20-40 workers in a game and still be economically ahead. Conversely, I've seen terrans lose 5-10 workers early and never are able to recover. That's not to say that losing 20 drones is equal to losing 5 scvs, but it's the context of when the workers are lost and how often are they lost.
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On October 06 2014 23:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:
@FFW_Rude
But the number of worker kills is highly irrelevant due to build times for workers.
Zerg is hurt the least by losing workers while Terran is hurt the most. Larva + Chrono Boost allows early and late game loss of workers to be more easily replenished compared to Terran production. Meaning harass effectiveness is gauged very very differently from matchup to matchup.
I've seen Zerg losing 20-40 workers in a game and still be economically ahead. Conversely, I've seen terrans lose 5-10 workers early and never are able to recover. That's not to say that losing 20 drones is equal to losing 5 scvs, but it's the context of when the workers are lost and how often are they lost.
You know i wasn't serious with my ... "counter-argument" ? (i even wrote it).
I'm not the guy that talked about the losing worker for terran. The only serious part of my post was the last where i ask question about reaction timing.
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On October 06 2014 23:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:
@FFW_Rude
But the number of worker kills is highly irrelevant due to build times for workers.
Zerg is hurt the least by losing workers while Terran is hurt the most. Larva + Chrono Boost allows early and late game loss of workers to be more easily replenished compared to Terran production. Meaning harass effectiveness is gauged very very differently from matchup to matchup.
I've seen Zerg losing 20-40 workers in a game and still be economically ahead. Conversely, I've seen terrans lose 5-10 workers early and never are able to recover. That's not to say that losing 20 drones is equal to losing 5 scvs, but it's the context of when the workers are lost and how often are they lost.
Theres a huge difference between losing 5-10 workers in the early game and losing 20-30 workers late game. If zerg loses drones in the early game he is screwed if there is any attack coming soon. Also terran have mules that help when losing workers. I have also seen games where zerg loses 10 drones early and then simply dies when terran rolls over them with a follow up push. If you see a gene where zerg loses 20-40 drones to one push (if thats what you mean) and still in the lead you are watching a terrible bronze league match.
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On October 06 2014 23:09 FFW_Rude wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 23:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:
@FFW_Rude
But the number of worker kills is highly irrelevant due to build times for workers.
Zerg is hurt the least by losing workers while Terran is hurt the most. Larva + Chrono Boost allows early and late game loss of workers to be more easily replenished compared to Terran production. Meaning harass effectiveness is gauged very very differently from matchup to matchup.
I've seen Zerg losing 20-40 workers in a game and still be economically ahead. Conversely, I've seen terrans lose 5-10 workers early and never are able to recover. That's not to say that losing 20 drones is equal to losing 5 scvs, but it's the context of when the workers are lost and how often are they lost. You know i wasn't serious with my ... "counter-argument" ? (i even wrote it). I'm not the guy that talked about the losing worker for terran. The only serious part of my post was the last where i ask question about reaction timing.
Oh okay, that makes more sense then. Was just skimming and it was weird seeing someone argue balance by how many workers units of different races could kill. That makes a lot more sense.
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The gist about knowing if it's going to be mech or not is about how much they protect their hellions.
If they are being overprotective of a slowly growing hellion count--then its a hellbat timing. If they are aggressively poking/running into worker lines, then its a bio transition.
Its the philosophies of the two builds. Hellbat timings know their damage comes from the armory finishing, so they just try to make their hellions useful until it finishes. Its very very important to them to never lose a hellion.
Bio transitions, on the other hand, require the hellions to deal damage. They are essentially delaying their barracks infrastructure and upgrades (150 gas spent on factory and reactor) to deal damage with hellions before hitting with a stim or combat shield or +1 timing. If they don't deal damage with hellions then they simply have delayed tech and delayed infrastructure for zero gain.
REALLY good terrans have a transition point when they've only built 2-4 hellions where they can make the call of Hellbat push or barracks push. This is relatively arbitrary and is decided by playstyle preference and what they scout. How well you fight off the first 4 hellions can dictate what the terran player is sort of "pushed" into. The better you defend it (but the terran loses no hellions) the more likely he will do a hellbat timing. If you take some amount of damage (but not critical) and he loses a few hellions, very likely a bio transition. You need to scout for both--but how the first 4 hellions do determines what the terran transition is. (except in low levels where they only have the skill to do *that* push even if it is a weaker version of the push)
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The gist about knowing if it's going to be mech or not is about how much they protect their hellions.
If they are being overprotective of a slowly growing hellion count--then its a hellbat timing. If they are aggressively poking/running into worker lines, then its a bio transition.
Good Terrans ALWAYS retain their hellions.
Sacrificing ones hellions is stupid, because it severely weakens your first bio push in which you use the hellions (or since the patch your hellbats) to kill zergs that don't build banelings. Also it is stupid because for as long as you have hellions, you can deny creep and have quite some mapcontrol. And good Terrans don't give that up for the small chance that a Zerg might have built a few too few zerglings.
Basically what I'm saying: losing hellions before 10mins is always wrong. The only thing you can read from that is that your opponent is bad.
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On October 06 2014 23:40 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 23:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:
@FFW_Rude
But the number of worker kills is highly irrelevant due to build times for workers.
Zerg is hurt the least by losing workers while Terran is hurt the most. Larva + Chrono Boost allows early and late game loss of workers to be more easily replenished compared to Terran production. Meaning harass effectiveness is gauged very very differently from matchup to matchup.
I've seen Zerg losing 20-40 workers in a game and still be economically ahead. Conversely, I've seen terrans lose 5-10 workers early and never are able to recover. That's not to say that losing 20 drones is equal to losing 5 scvs, but it's the context of when the workers are lost and how often are they lost. Theres a huge difference between losing 5-10 workers in the early game and losing 20-30 workers late game. If zerg loses drones in the early game he is screwed if there is any attack coming soon. Also terran have mules that help when losing workers. I have also seen games where zerg loses 10 drones early and then simply dies when terran rolls over them with a follow up push. If you see a gene where zerg loses 20-40 drones to one push (if thats what you mean) and still in the lead you are watching a terrible bronze league match.
Which part of "its context based" do you not understand?
I've seen zergs be hit early game, mid game, and late game with drops killing workers here and there and even though they enter the late game with 30-40 worker losses to their opponents 2-5 worker losses the zerg is still ahead economically. The same would not be true for a terran player who loses workers continually from early game to late game.
Of course killing 20-40 workers in one push is game ending. Because that means you have an entire army unmolested in their main with no way for them to kill it. Context man, context. Zerg is the race that can have heavy worker losses without being as hurt as the other 2. That is fact. It opens them up to timings, but that is separate from being unable to recover.
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On October 06 2014 23:48 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +The gist about knowing if it's going to be mech or not is about how much they protect their hellions.
If they are being overprotective of a slowly growing hellion count--then its a hellbat timing. If they are aggressively poking/running into worker lines, then its a bio transition. Good Terrans ALWAYS retain their hellions. Sacrificing ones hellions is stupid, because it severely weakens your first bio push in which you use the hellions (or since the patch your hellbats) to kill zergs that don't build banelings. Also it is stupid because for as long as you have hellions, you can deny creep and have quite some mapcontrol. And good Terrans don't give that up for the small chance that a Zerg might have built a few too few zerglings. Basically what I'm saying: losing hellions before 10mins is always wrong. The only thing you can read from that is that your opponent is bad.
No, hellions not dealing any damage early means that most terrans feel forced to do a hellbat push to not waste the fact that they've been building hellions for 5-10 minutes. It tells you what they're doing because not dealing damage with them and then switching to bio means that you simply have a bad bio build that delays everything for no gain.
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On October 06 2014 23:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 23:40 RaFox17 wrote:On October 06 2014 23:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:
@FFW_Rude
But the number of worker kills is highly irrelevant due to build times for workers.
Zerg is hurt the least by losing workers while Terran is hurt the most. Larva + Chrono Boost allows early and late game loss of workers to be more easily replenished compared to Terran production. Meaning harass effectiveness is gauged very very differently from matchup to matchup.
I've seen Zerg losing 20-40 workers in a game and still be economically ahead. Conversely, I've seen terrans lose 5-10 workers early and never are able to recover. That's not to say that losing 20 drones is equal to losing 5 scvs, but it's the context of when the workers are lost and how often are they lost. Theres a huge difference between losing 5-10 workers in the early game and losing 20-30 workers late game. If zerg loses drones in the early game he is screwed if there is any attack coming soon. Also terran have mules that help when losing workers. I have also seen games where zerg loses 10 drones early and then simply dies when terran rolls over them with a follow up push. If you see a gene where zerg loses 20-40 drones to one push (if thats what you mean) and still in the lead you are watching a terrible bronze league match. Which part of "its context based" do you not understand? I've seen zergs be hit early game, mid game, and late game with drops killing workers here and there and even though they enter the late game with 30-40 worker losses to their opponents 2-5 worker losses the zerg is still ahead economically. The same would not be true for a terran player who loses workers continually from early game to late game. Of course killing 20-40 workers in one push is game ending. Because that means you have an entire army unmolested in their main with no way for them to kill it. Context man, context. Zerg is the race that can have heavy worker losses without being as hurt as the other 2. That is fact. It opens them up to timings, but that is separate from being unable to recover.
Yes, if you kill 40 drones zerg can recover IF given time. If you kill 40 workers terran can recover IF you give them time etc. If you are a good player you won´t give zerg, terran or protoss time to recover and punish them. Many would say that mules enable terran to survive big worker losses as their core army needs less gas than Z/P.
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On October 06 2014 23:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 23:48 Big J wrote:The gist about knowing if it's going to be mech or not is about how much they protect their hellions.
If they are being overprotective of a slowly growing hellion count--then its a hellbat timing. If they are aggressively poking/running into worker lines, then its a bio transition. Good Terrans ALWAYS retain their hellions. Sacrificing ones hellions is stupid, because it severely weakens your first bio push in which you use the hellions (or since the patch your hellbats) to kill zergs that don't build banelings. Also it is stupid because for as long as you have hellions, you can deny creep and have quite some mapcontrol. And good Terrans don't give that up for the small chance that a Zerg might have built a few too few zerglings. Basically what I'm saying: losing hellions before 10mins is always wrong. The only thing you can read from that is that your opponent is bad. No, hellions not dealing any damage early means that most terrans feel forced to do a hellbat push to not waste the fact that they've been building hellions for 5-10 minutes. It tells you what they're doing because not dealing damage with them and then switching to bio means that you simply have a bad bio build that delays everything for no gain.
Lol. You are not watching any progames are you?
Where Terrans always retain their hellions and use them in their first biopush around 11mins...
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On October 06 2014 23:59 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 23:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 06 2014 23:40 RaFox17 wrote:On October 06 2014 23:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:
@FFW_Rude
But the number of worker kills is highly irrelevant due to build times for workers.
Zerg is hurt the least by losing workers while Terran is hurt the most. Larva + Chrono Boost allows early and late game loss of workers to be more easily replenished compared to Terran production. Meaning harass effectiveness is gauged very very differently from matchup to matchup.
I've seen Zerg losing 20-40 workers in a game and still be economically ahead. Conversely, I've seen terrans lose 5-10 workers early and never are able to recover. That's not to say that losing 20 drones is equal to losing 5 scvs, but it's the context of when the workers are lost and how often are they lost. Theres a huge difference between losing 5-10 workers in the early game and losing 20-30 workers late game. If zerg loses drones in the early game he is screwed if there is any attack coming soon. Also terran have mules that help when losing workers. I have also seen games where zerg loses 10 drones early and then simply dies when terran rolls over them with a follow up push. If you see a gene where zerg loses 20-40 drones to one push (if thats what you mean) and still in the lead you are watching a terrible bronze league match. Which part of "its context based" do you not understand? I've seen zergs be hit early game, mid game, and late game with drops killing workers here and there and even though they enter the late game with 30-40 worker losses to their opponents 2-5 worker losses the zerg is still ahead economically. The same would not be true for a terran player who loses workers continually from early game to late game. Of course killing 20-40 workers in one push is game ending. Because that means you have an entire army unmolested in their main with no way for them to kill it. Context man, context. Zerg is the race that can have heavy worker losses without being as hurt as the other 2. That is fact. It opens them up to timings, but that is separate from being unable to recover. Yes, if you kill 40 drones zerg can recover IF given time. If you kill 40 workers terran can recover IF you give them time etc. If you are a good player you won´t give zerg, terran or protoss time to recover and punish them. Many would say that mules enable terran to survive big worker losses as their core army needs less gas than Z/P.
A mule is about 3 scvs worth of mining assuming no scans, assuming no supply drops (something even Maru does from time to time) assuming no saving energy in case they need to scan etc...
Zerg losing 3-4 workers every few minutes until the late game means they can still have a massive economy. The same is not true for Protoss and Terran.
A Terran, in the late late game, be less affected by worker losses because he will have 3-4 orbitals by then simulating a worker line, but at the same time it's much harder for Terran to get those bases online compared to Zerg/Protoss.
Protoss is not as punished as Terran wary game because they can quickly remake worker with chrono and can usually keep pace with Zerg the first 6-8 minutes of the game. However, late game Protoss are the most hurt by worker losses as their gas dependency is too high per unit they make and hence they can't afford to lose workers.
Zerg's on the other hand are dependent on the rythm of inject. They can replenish the most easily but they have to make sure they don't dry themselves up of larva at the wrong timings. Zerg's also automatically are behind if they are not immaculate with injects for that very same reason. Sometimes Terran/Protoss just had to distract/annoy the Zerg player enough to break his inject rhythm and the Zerg player is behind (there is nothing equivalent to this vs Terran and Protoss)
So it's really context that determines when losing X workers is worse for one race or another.
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On October 07 2014 00:03 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 23:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 06 2014 23:48 Big J wrote:The gist about knowing if it's going to be mech or not is about how much they protect their hellions.
If they are being overprotective of a slowly growing hellion count--then its a hellbat timing. If they are aggressively poking/running into worker lines, then its a bio transition. Good Terrans ALWAYS retain their hellions. Sacrificing ones hellions is stupid, because it severely weakens your first bio push in which you use the hellions (or since the patch your hellbats) to kill zergs that don't build banelings. Also it is stupid because for as long as you have hellions, you can deny creep and have quite some mapcontrol. And good Terrans don't give that up for the small chance that a Zerg might have built a few too few zerglings. Basically what I'm saying: losing hellions before 10mins is always wrong. The only thing you can read from that is that your opponent is bad. No, hellions not dealing any damage early means that most terrans feel forced to do a hellbat push to not waste the fact that they've been building hellions for 5-10 minutes. It tells you what they're doing because not dealing damage with them and then switching to bio means that you simply have a bad bio build that delays everything for no gain. Lol. You are not watching any progames are you? Where Terrans always retain their hellions and use them in their first biopush around 11mins...
And what I'm telling you is that the bio push would have been stronger if they simply didn't make hellions and just hit with the bio push earlier instead of spending the first 6 minute dancing 400 minerals around the edge of creep so they can hit at such a late timing attack. Even Protoss aims to hit at the 8-9 minute mark and not the 11-12 minute mark.
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On October 06 2014 23:59 RaFox17 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 23:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 06 2014 23:40 RaFox17 wrote:On October 06 2014 23:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:
@FFW_Rude
But the number of worker kills is highly irrelevant due to build times for workers.
Zerg is hurt the least by losing workers while Terran is hurt the most. Larva + Chrono Boost allows early and late game loss of workers to be more easily replenished compared to Terran production. Meaning harass effectiveness is gauged very very differently from matchup to matchup.
I've seen Zerg losing 20-40 workers in a game and still be economically ahead. Conversely, I've seen terrans lose 5-10 workers early and never are able to recover. That's not to say that losing 20 drones is equal to losing 5 scvs, but it's the context of when the workers are lost and how often are they lost. Theres a huge difference between losing 5-10 workers in the early game and losing 20-30 workers late game. If zerg loses drones in the early game he is screwed if there is any attack coming soon. Also terran have mules that help when losing workers. I have also seen games where zerg loses 10 drones early and then simply dies when terran rolls over them with a follow up push. If you see a gene where zerg loses 20-40 drones to one push (if thats what you mean) and still in the lead you are watching a terrible bronze league match. Which part of "its context based" do you not understand? I've seen zergs be hit early game, mid game, and late game with drops killing workers here and there and even though they enter the late game with 30-40 worker losses to their opponents 2-5 worker losses the zerg is still ahead economically. The same would not be true for a terran player who loses workers continually from early game to late game. Of course killing 20-40 workers in one push is game ending. Because that means you have an entire army unmolested in their main with no way for them to kill it. Context man, context. Zerg is the race that can have heavy worker losses without being as hurt as the other 2. That is fact. It opens them up to timings, but that is separate from being unable to recover. Yes, if you kill 40 drones zerg can recover IF given time. If you kill 40 workers terran can recover IF you give them time etc. If you are a good player you won´t give zerg, terran or protoss time to recover and punish them. Many would say that mules enable terran to survive big worker losses as their core army needs less gas than Z/P.
The reason that people say Terran can lose a lot of workers and still be fine "because MULES" is more because of mid/late game than early game. If Terran loses workers in the early game they are very much fucked. But MULES allow Terran (especially on 3 bases) to continue producing army long enough to buy themselves the time to remake SCVs (especially if they are threatening drops and being active on the map).
I actually think P is the most vulnerable to losing lots of workers. Yes, we can chrono them out, but compared to dropping MULES or remaking 21 drones at once, it's much slower. Again, I'm talking mid-late game. Before the 3rd CC comes down losing workers is pretty serious for all races.
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On October 07 2014 00:16 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 00:03 Big J wrote:On October 06 2014 23:51 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 06 2014 23:48 Big J wrote:The gist about knowing if it's going to be mech or not is about how much they protect their hellions.
If they are being overprotective of a slowly growing hellion count--then its a hellbat timing. If they are aggressively poking/running into worker lines, then its a bio transition. Good Terrans ALWAYS retain their hellions. Sacrificing ones hellions is stupid, because it severely weakens your first bio push in which you use the hellions (or since the patch your hellbats) to kill zergs that don't build banelings. Also it is stupid because for as long as you have hellions, you can deny creep and have quite some mapcontrol. And good Terrans don't give that up for the small chance that a Zerg might have built a few too few zerglings. Basically what I'm saying: losing hellions before 10mins is always wrong. The only thing you can read from that is that your opponent is bad. No, hellions not dealing any damage early means that most terrans feel forced to do a hellbat push to not waste the fact that they've been building hellions for 5-10 minutes. It tells you what they're doing because not dealing damage with them and then switching to bio means that you simply have a bad bio build that delays everything for no gain. Lol. You are not watching any progames are you? Where Terrans always retain their hellions and use them in their first biopush around 11mins... And what I'm telling you is that the bio push would have been stronger if they simply didn't make hellions and just hit with the bio push earlier instead of spending the first 6 minute dancing 400 minerals around the edge of creep so they can hit at such a late timing attack. Even Protoss aims to hit at the 8-9 minute mark and not the 11-12 minute mark.
Denying creep makes your push stronger. Hellbats make your push stronger than just more bio. And you need hellions to allow you to 3CC. If you dont go hellions you have to blindly build tanks to which the zerg can react with greed after scouting them or if you dont build tanks or hellions an appopriate 2base roach or baneling push reaction just wins.
Thats why you build hellions. It is the most costefficiant early defense unit that you can get of a mineralfocused (to build CCs, SCVs and infrastructure) build.
Protoss that hit at 8-9mins dont play macro builds. Their pushes are allin while Terran biopushes are not.
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On October 07 2014 00:13 Thieving Magpie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 23:59 RaFox17 wrote:On October 06 2014 23:50 Thieving Magpie wrote:On October 06 2014 23:40 RaFox17 wrote:On October 06 2014 23:06 Thieving Magpie wrote:
@FFW_Rude
But the number of worker kills is highly irrelevant due to build times for workers.
Zerg is hurt the least by losing workers while Terran is hurt the most. Larva + Chrono Boost allows early and late game loss of workers to be more easily replenished compared to Terran production. Meaning harass effectiveness is gauged very very differently from matchup to matchup.
I've seen Zerg losing 20-40 workers in a game and still be economically ahead. Conversely, I've seen terrans lose 5-10 workers early and never are able to recover. That's not to say that losing 20 drones is equal to losing 5 scvs, but it's the context of when the workers are lost and how often are they lost. Theres a huge difference between losing 5-10 workers in the early game and losing 20-30 workers late game. If zerg loses drones in the early game he is screwed if there is any attack coming soon. Also terran have mules that help when losing workers. I have also seen games where zerg loses 10 drones early and then simply dies when terran rolls over them with a follow up push. If you see a gene where zerg loses 20-40 drones to one push (if thats what you mean) and still in the lead you are watching a terrible bronze league match. Which part of "its context based" do you not understand? I've seen zergs be hit early game, mid game, and late game with drops killing workers here and there and even though they enter the late game with 30-40 worker losses to their opponents 2-5 worker losses the zerg is still ahead economically. The same would not be true for a terran player who loses workers continually from early game to late game. Of course killing 20-40 workers in one push is game ending. Because that means you have an entire army unmolested in their main with no way for them to kill it. Context man, context. Zerg is the race that can have heavy worker losses without being as hurt as the other 2. That is fact. It opens them up to timings, but that is separate from being unable to recover. Yes, if you kill 40 drones zerg can recover IF given time. If you kill 40 workers terran can recover IF you give them time etc. If you are a good player you won´t give zerg, terran or protoss time to recover and punish them. Many would say that mules enable terran to survive big worker losses as their core army needs less gas than Z/P. A mule is about 3 scvs worth of mining assuming no scans, assuming no supply drops (something even Maru does from time to time) assuming no saving energy in case they need to scan etc... Zerg losing 3-4 workers every few minutes until the late game means they can still have a massive economy. The same is not true for Protoss and Terran. A Terran, in the late late game, be less affected by worker losses because he will have 3-4 orbitals by then simulating a worker line, but at the same time it's much harder for Terran to get those bases online compared to Zerg/Protoss. Protoss is not as punished as Terran wary game because they can quickly remake worker with chrono and can usually keep pace with Zerg the first 6-8 minutes of the game. However, late game Protoss are the most hurt by worker losses as their gas dependency is too high per unit they make and hence they can't afford to lose workers. Zerg's on the other hand are dependent on the rythm of inject. They can replenish the most easily but they have to make sure they don't dry themselves up of larva at the wrong timings. Zerg's also automatically are behind if they are not immaculate with injects for that very same reason. Sometimes Terran/Protoss just had to distract/annoy the Zerg player enough to break his inject rhythm and the Zerg player is behind (there is nothing equivalent to this vs Terran and Protoss) So it's really context that determines when losing X workers is worse for one race or another.
I agree with this except the bolded statement. I don't think it's harder for T to establish bases. I actually think it's the easiest. Especially as you can just build them in your main if you don't have enough units to defend them in an exposed location (like P and Z have to).
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EPT
