EPTSure it does require a degree of surprise, but its so execution-dependent.
Zerg cheeses suck by comparison. They are SO dependent on catching an opponent with their pants down or reacting badly, and less on execution of the attack.
Designated Balance Discussion Thread - Page 1121
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25990 Posts
Sure it does require a degree of surprise, but its so execution-dependent. Zerg cheeses suck by comparison. They are SO dependent on catching an opponent with their pants down or reacting badly, and less on execution of the attack. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On October 05 2014 08:02 Wombat_NI wrote: 2 rax is the best cheese out there. Sure it does require a degree of surprise, but its so execution-dependent. Zerg cheeses suck by comparison. They are SO dependent on catching an opponent with their pants down or reacting badly, and less on execution of the attack. Are you saying that 2rax should be more like Zerg cheeses, or that Zerg cheeses should be more like 2rax? | ||
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parkufarku
882 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
On October 05 2014 08:10 parkufarku wrote: Please buff T to start with 10 SCVs instead of 5 so that these Terrans on this thread can't deny the race is OP...oh wait..they'll even find a way then "Drones regenerate!!" Terran currently starts with 5 SCVs? They clearly must be OP if they're still winning when their P / Z counterparts start with a 20% stronger economy. | ||
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Thieving Magpie
United States6752 Posts
On October 05 2014 08:16 Pursuit_ wrote: Terran currently starts with 5 SCVs? They clearly must be OP if they're still winning when their P / Z counterparts start with a 20% stronger economy. True terrans only start with 4 SCVs and have real siege tanks. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25990 Posts
On October 05 2014 08:06 pure.Wasted wrote: Are you saying that 2rax should be more like Zerg cheeses, or that Zerg cheeses should be more like 2rax? The latter. With a lot of Zerg ones it's basically 'hope my opponent doesn't scout this/reacts wrongly' and as long as you don't execute like a retard your gambit succeeds. On the other hand, Zerg have very few in the way of aggressive builds that they can prosper greatly with great unit control in the same way you can with a 2 rax. | ||
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TokO
Norway577 Posts
I surely hope that Zerg early-game cheese doesn't become as strong as the 2rax, as that would probably leave Protoss in a horrible spot. | ||
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Maniak_
France305 Posts
On October 05 2014 07:57 plogamer wrote: Please specify what constitutes a 'fail' bust? One that don't break through depots? That's very much a control mistake. That's like 2 rax player getting his marines trapped between rally to bunker. A baneling bust is an all-in. If it doesn't win you the game, you can only cross your fingers and hope your opponent is bad enough to let you have any hope of maybe coming back and having a slight chance to not die immediately. If you don't win with it, or at least deal critical damage, it's a failure. You can't salvage 75% of the cost of most of your banelings and you can't fly back with the proxy production buildings that don't exist. You invest a *lot* (including tons of gas) and you lose everything. A 2-rax is not an all-in. At all. It's simply one of the most effective cheeses with the least amount of risk. And that's the single most important issue with it. Not its existence, but the risk/reward balance that's *highly* on the reward side. | ||
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plogamer
Canada3132 Posts
On October 05 2014 09:40 Maniak_ wrote: A baneling bust is an all-in. If it doesn't win you the game, you can only cross your fingers and hope your opponent is bad enough to let you have any hope of maybe coming back and having a slight chance to not die immediately. If you don't win with it, or at least deal critical damage, it's a failure. You can't salvage 75% of the cost of most of your banelings and you can't fly back with the proxy production buildings that don't exist. You invest a *lot* (including tons of gas) and you lose everything. A 2-rax is not an all-in. At all. It's simply one of the most effective cheeses with the least amount of risk. And that's the single most important issue with it. Not its existence, but the risk/reward balance that's *highly* on the reward side. You didn't address the question.And not all bane busts play out the same. How much damage does a Zerg need to inflict with a bust on a Terran? Often it's enough to bring down depots and flood with lings, with a handful split into the mineral lines. You also downplay the loss from a failed 2-rax. Expansion is delayed. Marine production is halted if proxied; also bio upgrades like stim. If not proxied, 2 rax can be scouted by a drone, ez pz. So effective 2 rax will always be proxied - resulting in the aforementioned losses in upgrade and production. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25990 Posts
While not playing 'greedily', I think Zergs seem to be trying to cut as many corners as possible in order to enter the transition phase on a better footing, and are dying in the process. The threat of Hellbat pushes later on, plus speedivacs giving Terran potent harassing options post the 2 rax phase would be one notable difference from WoL for example. | ||
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r691175002
249 Posts
On October 05 2014 09:40 Maniak_ wrote: A 2-rax is not an all-in. At all. It's simply one of the most effective cheeses with the least amount of risk. And that's the single most important issue with it. Not its existence, but the risk/reward balance that's *highly* on the reward side. I'm not sure you can really say anything about the 2rax without keeping the overall context of the match-up in mind. Playing Zerg is a test of how many corners you can cut. Unlike the other races, producing army and structures literally costs drones. Zerg openings are defined by how greedy they can be and still survive. A strong early game build will always exist against Zerg, because if their opening was safe, they would switch to a greedier one. Even if the 2rax was nerfed a strong cheese would still exist, it would just hit slightly later against a new, greedier Zerg opening. Similarly, a buff to the Zerg mid or late game will directly impact the strength of a 2rax since Zergs will be able to use safer openings and stay even in a standard game. | ||
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TokO
Norway577 Posts
On October 05 2014 10:07 Wombat_NI wrote: I'd be very interested to hear the thoughts of the more knowledgable amongst us as to why of late the 2 rax seems even more terrifying. While not playing 'greedily', I think Zergs seem to be trying to cut as many corners as possible in order to enter the transition phase on a better footing, and are dying in the process. The threat of Hellbat pushes later on, plus speedivacs giving Terran potent harassing options post the 2 rax phase would be one notable difference from WoL for example. I'm definitely not one of the more knowledgable amongst us. But I have an idea. Consider every all-in, and the consider the 1-2 minutes after it is scouted. In general cases, the defensive response will scale in strength much higher than the all-in itself. I think that in the case of 2rax, the zerg response usually scales equally to the strength of the 2rax. Which makes the outcome a lot more ambiguous. I think that this is why we can even have the discussion of hatch first vs. pool first. In the case of almost all other all-ins, there is really no discussions of response, because there is usually one response that is clearly superior in terms of scaling. Take in mind that economic sacrifices can affect how we can determine strength and scaling. E.g. Snute's 3-spine response might be superior to 2rax in terms of strength, but loses out in terms of sacrificing the hatchery, and therefore might be comparable to a scrappier mass-ling style that is able to defend the hatchery. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 05 2014 10:07 Wombat_NI wrote: I'd be very interested to hear the thoughts of the more knowledgable amongst us as to why of late the 2 rax seems even more terrifying. While not playing 'greedily', I think Zergs seem to be trying to cut as many corners as possible in order to enter the transition phase on a better footing, and are dying in the process. The threat of Hellbat pushes later on, plus speedivacs giving Terran potent harassing options post the 2 rax phase would be one notable difference from WoL for example. Terrans got good with it and following it up. And there is a lot of nasty 3p maps around. | ||
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FanaticCZ
Czech Republic287 Posts
On October 05 2014 09:00 Wombat_NI wrote: The latter. With a lot of Zerg ones it's basically 'hope my opponent doesn't scout this/reacts wrongly' and as long as you don't execute like a retard your gambit succeeds. On the other hand, Zerg have very few in the way of aggressive builds that they can prosper greatly with great unit control in the same way you can with a 2 rax. Well thats because Marine is so much more microable than lings and banes. Ranged units will always have much more potential. And Id say that 2rax is pretty much the only early game cheese that terran has and the fact it lines up with follow ups so well is that all u essentially do is building marines and bunkers (minerals). So if u dont pull SCVs and do some damage ure obviously in a pretty okay shape. If u cheese with zerg the problem is that u cant build drones if u want units and u have to mine some gas to have usefull units (speed, blings, roaches). But then if u catch your opponent of guard or he scouts it too late then its pretty much a free win compared to 2rax. Similarly to Protoss, but there the problem is sacrificing tech which u need later on, although nowadays with one-click defense its not as bad as in WoL. :D | ||
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Varroth
Sweden471 Posts
On October 05 2014 09:00 Wombat_NI wrote: The latter. With a lot of Zerg ones it's basically 'hope my opponent doesn't scout this/reacts wrongly' and as long as you don't execute like a retard your gambit succeeds. On the other hand, Zerg have very few in the way of aggressive builds that they can prosper greatly with great unit control in the same way you can with a 2 rax. That's odd when i first got into starcraft I cheesed my wa to plat as zerg going for 1-2 base speedling allin or 3 base 1/1 roach like Hyun or 10 pools or are we only talking about like incredibly early cheeses? | ||
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SacredCoconut
Finland121 Posts
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Maniak_
France305 Posts
Was there another question? An all-in is called an all-in for a reason. Though since terrans don't seem to have actual all-ins (other than grabbing every single SCV and YOLOing it), I can see how it'd be hard to imagine. On October 05 2014 10:00 plogamer wrote: And not all bane busts play out the same. How much damage does a Zerg need to inflict with a bust on a Terran? Often it's enough to bring down depots and flood with lings, with a handful split into the mineral lines. Often? Sometimes yeah, when the terran skipped on the defense. Bunkers, mines and now tanks with instant siege mode are all pretty easy to get once the bust is scouted. On October 05 2014 10:00 plogamer wrote: You also downplay the loss from a failed 2-rax. Please specify what constitues a 'fail' 2-rax? It costs something, of course. Given what it can achieve for such a low risk, I certainly hope it at least slows down the terran economy a bit. You're making it sound like 2-rax and baneling busts are comparable. How much gas does a 2-rax cost? How much less workers do you have because you need to build units? Can a baneling bust be proxied at half the distance to the opponent's base? Can banes be repaired? A 'failed' 2-rax costs only mineral (for a race with mules) and can put you 'slightly' behind (more or less depending on if the terran is actually good at it) -> not an all-in. A failed baneling bust costs a *lot* more (it costs gas, 'nuff said) and loses you the game -> all-in. When a zerg does a baneling bust, he hopes not to be scouted or he dies. When a terran does a 2-rax, he's already planning the following macro game/early push. On October 05 2014 10:00 plogamer wrote: If not proxied, 2 rax can be scouted by a drone, ez pz. Sure, because overlords can scout all possible places on the map where 2 barracks can be built. Maybe if they were not slower than terran flying buildings? | ||
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
On October 05 2014 21:28 Maniak_ wrote: Sure, because overlords can scout all possible places on the map where 2 barracks can be built. Maybe if they were not slower than terran flying buildings? Im not into your whole "2rax to cheap to strong" discussion, but when a zerg calles overlords to slow for scouting, he should think about how other races scout in early game and use this unique technic too. And maybe you should compare the 2rax more with early pools ( 10 or 11 pool ) then with a bane bust all in. Costs you only mins, hits at around the same timing and doesnt bring you that far behind if you play it well behind even when for example the terran has a full wall off. Then his exe is denied till he has hellions and that takes more time then any terran wants to see going by. You can compare the 2rax scv-pull with a bane bust, because it is a 100% all in. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On October 05 2014 21:41 Clonester wrote: Im not into your whole "2rax to cheap to strong" discussion, but when a zerg calles overlords to slow for scouting, he should think about how other races scout in early game and use this unique technic too. And maybe you should compare the 2rax more with early pools ( 10 or 11 pool ) then with a bane bust all in. Costs you only mins, hits at around the same timing and doesnt bring you that far behind if you play it well behind even when for example the terran has a full wall off. Then his exe is denied till he has hellions and that takes more time then any terran wants to see going by. You can compare the 2rax scv-pull with a bane bust, because it is a 100% all in. 10pool is pretty different from 6-9pools, and different from 12 pool, though not so different from 12 double extractor over pool in how it transitions. I think if you start having to rely on drone scouting every game for a chance of seeing it coming you've already lost lol | ||
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