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On July 25 2014 07:12 Pr0wler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 06:23 xuanzue wrote:
this grinding system is somehow laughable if compared with other mobas that are a lot less p2w, or entirely free like dota2.
but then you see all the diehard fanboys that blizzard has, and know that they will gladly pay $100 if this mean an early advantage that helps to climb the ladder.
best thing is to move on. the market soon will be saturated by mobas hopefully with a friendlier monetization model. I actually don't know moba that is p2w. The market is currently saturated by all kinds of Mobas... And they run pretty much the same model with the unlocks. Maybe Smite has the fairest model where you pay 30 dollars for all the gods and that's it. Don't hold your breath for "friendlier monetization models" 
Last time I checked out Strife it was tilting pretty far down the p2w scale. I'm not sure if that's been turned into just straight grind2win with recent updates, though.
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Artifacts are not as bad as people say they are. The new hero progression system is worse than people think it is.
That's my initial reaction to the changes at least.
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Just realized I have 100k gold now. Had ~25k pre-patch. Woot!
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Caldeum1976 Posts
Wow the hero leveling system is soooooo sloooowwww. A 174k xp game didn't even make it halfway through character level 2 (As in I was already level 2 and I made it to maybe 45% of that level) and I can't pick my talents for the improved ults or anything. Absolute garbage of an idea it was to make that change.
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The LoL route of forcing people to farm for gameplay features is a pretty bad choice in my opinion. Several of my friends already decided they wouldn't play HOTS because of it and the artefacts (LoL runes almost copy pasta again). They prefer the dota model where you play whatever the f you please and only farm/pay for cosmetics. You shouldn't have to farm to unlock spells and talents on a hero you already had to buy.
They must be really confident in the success of their game if they are making changes like that. Maybe it's the kind of thing that appeals to "casual" public though, as it is setting progressive goals and most people seem to need that to be motivated to play..
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On July 25 2014 12:07 deth2munkies wrote:
Artifacts are not as bad as people say they are. The new hero progression system is worse than people think it is.
That's my initial reaction to the changes at least.
Except the movement speed ones, kinda agree though., but the movement speed artifacts should either be out, be almost halved, or even be a hell of a lot expensive - like 50k a piece.. the MS artifacts are a real game-changer, watched some stream last night, the MS artifact on level 10 is OP as f*ck  (sounds like it's not a lot 5%, but it IS a lot)
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Northern Ireland22203 Posts
On July 25 2014 16:36 VArsovskiSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 12:07 deth2munkies wrote:
Artifacts are not as bad as people say they are. The new hero progression system is worse than people think it is.
That's my initial reaction to the changes at least. Except the movement speed ones, kinda agree though., but the movement speed artifacts should either be out, be almost halved, or even be a hell of a lot expensive - like 50k a piece.. the MS artifacts are a real game-changer, watched some stream last night, the MS artifact on level 10 is OP as f*ck (sounds like it's not a lot 5%, but it IS a lot)
Making something like the MS artifact even more expensive is worse imo, because you're pretty much making it exclusive only to those who grind hard for it, or pay for it.
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After much googling I still can't figure out how experience is aquired in this game, I'm probably missing something obvious and forgive me if I am. Killing creeps grants xp but at what range do you need to be? do you need to attack/last hit them? how much experience does a merc camp or hero kill give relative to a creep wave? Do the objectives grant xp?
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On July 25 2014 05:56 Sn0_Man wrote:Oh dear lol I hadn't realized that thread was made by this guy. Ahahaha oh dear. On the topic of success, EA's business practices could be referred to as "successful" but that doesn't stop consumers from condemning them, and rightly so. People defending the HoTS F2P model as "successful" need to understand that a "successful" model doesn't mean its good for the consumers and that we should still criticize it if we feel justified doing so.
Was going to reply to ComaDose but this was pretty much exactly what I would have said anyway. Thanks, Sn0_Man.
Also that Last Hit mechanic seems pretty dumb. It doesn't fit with the design philosophy that they were jumping on from the start and is probably damn near impossible to balance. Permanent extra damage from Last Hits...either it won't do enough to be noticeable and thus is pointless or it turns out to be OP as hell.
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On July 25 2014 05:35 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 20:01 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 24 2014 00:47 ComaDose wrote:On July 23 2014 23:40 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 23 2014 23:31 ComaDose wrote:On July 23 2014 21:17 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 22 2014 23:04 ComaDose wrote:
you have very good arguments against items but i'm not sure who you are talking to.
you honestly believe the other mobas fucked up by having items? no advantage for winning? sounds like a mentality oriented towards mario party mini games not so much mobas.
talkin bout unfair advantage to people who put in more work like you never played an mmo or something?
when i want to play chess i play sc2, when i want to tune a build to get a bit more out of my char i play lol, when i want to watch diablo superplex kerrigan i play HotS. I'm not gonna wana see that less if diablo gets 5% movespeed more cause he plays everyday. i just think everyone's over reacting like they are really expecting this to be the next one true moba saving esports. half the people complaining have never even played it. MOBAs became mainstream with Dota. Neither Dota nor Dota 2 gives you an advantage for winning. So no, it's not a Mario Party mentality, it's a MOBA mentality that the playing field is level and that you don't get an advantage for paying real money or grinding more. Again, if it's such a great idea, why don't you ask them to add it to SC2. Then when you want to play chess, you can play chess. yeah when you are winning in dota you buy better items. you said they fucked up by having items. HotS is about fixing the snowball, not about starting it up again by repeating the mistakes of other MOBAs through the addition of items but you misunderstood what i ment. also dota doesn't get to define a genre anymore than starcraft does. I understand why people don't want to grind but I can't believe how entitled you all feel. Do you read? As I said, items are not the same as artifacts. Items are within-game. They do not give you an advantage from outside of the game. Everyone starts the game with the same potential to buy items. Artifacts come from grinding and winning previous games, not within the current game, to give you an advantage in the current game. Unlike items, with artifacts, you are already ahead before the game even starts compared to someone who doesn't have it. Why is that so hard to understand? Why do you fail to understand such a simple concept? Should winning 50 SC2 games unlock a +2 damage to your marines in all future SC2 games? I understood what you meant perfectly: you said "when i want to play chess i play sc2". Well, let's add that +2 damage unlock to SC2, because it's such a great idea, and see how you enjoy SC2 as chess now. dog you're real mad and not really listening to what i'm saying. it's like we are having two different conversations. I know what artifacts are which is why i was surprised when you started talking about items, but i responded to what you said about items. On July 24 2014 00:42 -Celestial- wrote:
Do not ever forget that you're a customer. They are NOT doing us a favour by utilising this business model, they're trying to make money off us. yeah i think they picked the model that demonstrated the most profit in the market and people want them to change it so they can play at the highest level as soon as they install. which while would be fun isn't really necessary or lucrative. You said: On July 22 2014 22:40 ComaDose wrote:
"give us more ways to customize our characters"
"okay here"
"fuck you dead game worse than lol" Show me where people were asking for artifacts? If the model where everyday plays on a fair and equal playing field isn't "necessary or lucrative", then why doesn't SC2 switch to that model and add artifacts? Who cares about fair? you must realize what you are asking of me has nothing to do with what i said right? oh i just remembered you were the guy talking about this stuff? dude thats.... you need to realize what you want isn't what everyone else wants. i stand by my original assertion that if you don't want items or last hitting or any advantage for doing better than your opponent so far in the current game then the moba genre is probably not what you are looking for. like how do you feel about levels? lol. the same reason sc2 doesn't change is the same/opposite reason MMO's wont start you at max level with legendary gear. cry cry who cares about fair. Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 08:46 -Celestial- wrote:On July 24 2014 00:47 ComaDose wrote:On July 24 2014 00:42 -Celestial- wrote:
Do not ever forget that you're a customer. They are NOT doing us a favour by utilising this business model, they're trying to make money off us. yeah i think they picked the model that demonstrated the most profit in the market and people want them to change it so they can play at the highest level as soon as they install. which while would be fun isn't really necessary or lucrative. Just because a payment model makes money does not make it consumer friendly or what people want or even the most desirable model for the company. Business is more complicated than that. The breaking up of games into little chunks of DLC is horrendously anti-consumer and lots of people want that changed, but it makes a decent amount of money. Despite LoL's "success" there are plenty of people questioning and protesting its horrendously exploitative business model. Mobile games are another good example. Happily it is NOT just all about money, image does matter. Dungeon Keeper mobile probably made a boatload for the pitiful amount it must have cost to develop, but its still a failure as a game because the consumers reacted badly to it, gave it bad press and hence negatively impacted how the market viewed its stock. Look at the recent statements out of EA with respect to that game...they're all effectively press releases directed at their shareholders to calm them down. well i'm sure blizzards divisions that are making these decisions have considered this but maybe you should apply for a position. iuno why you put "success" like that tho. seems pretty unquestionable.
You argued that people were asking for customization as a defense to Blizzard adding artifacts. But the fact is no-one asked for artifacts, so your argument that people where asking for customization as a justification for artifacts is utter nonsense. This is like saying people have asked for more skill differentiation in HotS, and then Blizzard adds this:
A talent that grants you +1 basic attack permanently under the following conditions: "If you hit a minion with 2 basic attacks where the time between the two attacks is between 1.4 to 1.6 seconds, then a pop-up appears with a simple arithmetic problem, like '4x13=?', and if you type in the correct answer within 2 seconds,you are awarded +1 basic attack permanently"
Stop complaining about this arithmetic problem gimmick, we added it because people asked for skill differentiation.
Your assertion that if I don't want last hitting or items then MOBAs are not for me is also complete nonsense. Yesterday, there was a MOBA that had no last hitting, no items, no major snowballing, and where everyone starts the match on an equal playing field. That MOBA was called Heroes of the Storm.
In fact, starting matches on an equal playing field is quintessential to MOBAs, and originated with the first successful MOBA, which is Dota. Removing such a core feature is exactly like removing the core feature of SC2 that everyone starts matches on an equal playing field.
Your argument basically boils down to "I claim that MOBAs don't have a level playing field by definition, and I claim that SC2 does by definition, so get over it". It's not a valid argument, it's semantics and nonsense, vacuous and without substance. And it's not even correct as Dota proves.
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On July 25 2014 05:56 Sn0_Man wrote:Oh dear lol I hadn't realized that thread was made by this guy. Ahahaha oh dear.
On July 25 2014 06:07 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 05:56 Sn0_Man wrote:On July 25 2014 05:35 ComaDose wrote:oh i just remembered you were the guy talking about this stuff? Oh dear lol I hadn't realized that thread was made by this guy. Ahahaha oh dear. On the topic of success, EA's business practices could be referred to as "successful" but that doesn't stop consumers from condemning them, and rightly so. People defending the HoTS F2P model as "successful" need to understand that a "successful" model doesn't mean its good for the consumers and that we should still criticize it if we feel justified doing so. ComaDose, where did you find that gem? That shit is amazing. How did you even know it existed?
What's so hilarious about it? In terms of gameplay, HotS successfully and triumphantly fixes all of the terrible, arbitrary, unfun and destructive design mistakes that has afflicted Dota 2 and all other MOBAs. This was at least true before yesterday, but as taken a giant step backwards with the reintroduction of the stupid pointless gimmick of last hitting.
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On July 24 2014 23:54 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 23:44 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 24 2014 23:29 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2014 23:14 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 24 2014 21:41 Destructicon wrote:On July 24 2014 20:10 paralleluniverse wrote:Oh great, another giant step backwards. Last hitting is back as a talent. Last hitting is a stupid pointless gimmick which they should have left buried. If you're going to add this stupid pointless gimmick, why not add a equally pointless gimmicky talent that grants you +1 basic attack permanently under the following conditions: "If you hit a minion with 2 basic attacks where the time between the two attacks is between 1.4 to 1.6 seconds, then a pop-up appears with a simple arithmetic problem, like '4x13=?', and if you type in the correct answer within 2 seconds,you are awarded +1 basic attack permanently"? This patch contains several major changes that is quickly turning the game into LoL. If this game continues on it's path to be LoL, I will quit. Last hitting is not a pointless gimmick, its a expression of skill, its a way to distinguish a good player from a truly fantastic player and its a method of gaining marginal but important incremental advantages that you can use to gain the upper hand on your opponent. This is also an expression of skill: A talent that grants you +1 basic attack permanently under the following conditions: "If you hit a minion with 2 basic attacks where the time between the two attacks is between 1.4 to 1.6 seconds, then a pop-up appears with a simple arithmetic problem, like '4x13=?', and if you type in the correct answer within 2 seconds,you are awarded +1 basic attack permanently" It takes skill to do this. This argument is really, really, really dumb. Last hitting isn't pointless in games that have it and if you don't like it, you are entitled to that opinion. No need to make hyperbolic arguments to attempt to justify your opinion on the subject. It's not hyperbolic, it's a simple comparison about 2 mechanics that shouldn't need to exist in any MOBA. Last hitting originated from the accidental, marginal and minor happenstance that gold and XP from killing creeps in WC3 was given out to the last hitter. A gimmick that had little effect in WC3, while making absolutely no sense to be retained and promoted as a central gameplay mechanic in MOBAs. You say that last hitting isn't pointless. Then why isn't the following skill-based mechanic also not pointless? A talent that grants you +1 basic attack permanently under the following conditions: "If you hit a minion with 2 basic attacks where the time between the two attacks is between 1.4 to 1.6 seconds, then a pop-up appears with a simple arithmetic problem, like '4x13=?', and if you type in the correct answer within 2 seconds,you are awarded +1 basic attack permanently" How is last hitting more worthy and less pointless than the above? It's not, both are equally pointless. Given that humans can only do finite number of things at one time, it's a matter of defining what sort of skill and behavior you want to incentivize and reward, what creates interesting and fun gameplay, and what is impressive to see. Neither last hitting nor the above skill-based mechanic fits the criteria (creating more team fights via map objectives does). They are equally stupid pointless gimmicks. And Blizzard's readdition of last hitting, an archaic gimmick that should have remained buried, makes the game considerably worse. You seem to be confused as to what personal opinion is. Your enjoyment of a specific mechanic does not directly correlate with how worth while it is. Although it may not have a place in Heroes, which I agree, it does not make the mechanic pointless just because you don't like it. The back and forth dance of denying and last hitting is quite fun in dota, even if you don't think it is. You can make your argument without these sweeping statements of the overall worth of a part of a game. If you want to say that last hitting or something like doesn't really fit in with the design of Heroes, folks might be inclined to agree.
On July 25 2014 06:33 Grumbels wrote:
I wouldn't trust parraleluniverse's arguments because he uses the well known condescending example that goes "what if we added random math equations to the game, would that require skill?"
The back and forth dance of last hitting with be as fun as the back and forth dance of disrupting your enemies 1.4 to 1.6 second window needed to activate the following:
A talent that grants you +1 basic attack permanently under the following conditions: "If you hit a minion with 2 basic attacks where the time between the two attacks is between 1.4 to 1.6 seconds, then a pop-up appears with a simple arithmetic problem, like '4x13=?', and if you type in the correct answer within 2 seconds,you are awarded +1 basic attack permanently"
Also, this is not a math problem. It's a skill in precisely timing attacks within a 1.4 to 1.6 second window, and a simple arithmetic problem that is too elementary to deserve being called a "math problem".
The fact is, no one has given any argument or a logical game design framework, which tells us why this should be out, but last hitting should be in.
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United States12210 Posts
The obvious answer is that the timing attack window is arbitrary and answering a math problem detracts from normal game flow (in addition to itself being arbitrary). It's much easier to understand "whoever lands the killing blow gets the credit" because that's how it works in FPS games (player to get the killing blow gets the kill credit), Starcraft (unit to get the killing blow gets the kill credit), existing MOBA titles, lots of things. There's probably a more elegant way to differentiate skill than rehashing last hitting, and this probably isn't the last iteration we'll see of it.
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On July 25 2014 07:09 Sn0_Man wrote:It would be rude to harp on this too much, but there happen to be some real gems out of the OP of that thread on page 2. Such as + Show Spoiler +"If the level range is 1-50 like WC3, then most people should be near level 25, because that's the mean" in reference to the leveling system (admittedly before it was properly implemented but still utterly hilarious) And + Show Spoiler +"You have no idea how balance works. Balance does not mean unbeatable, and this applies to Riki and Ursa"
Given that the distribution of skill is shaped like a bell curve, any measure of skill must reproduce this property or else it does not measure skill. How can you justify, for example, throwing most people in around lowest skill rating, when the truth is that most people are average skilled?
Just because some hero is beatable doesn't mean it's balanced. For example, a couple of months ago, protoss was considered overpowered. But protoss did not have a 100% win rate, thus protoss was beatable. So how can protoss be overpowered if it can be beaten? 50% win rate is balanced, 53% win rate is balanced enough. 55% win rate is imbalanced, despite the fact it loses quite often: 45% of the time.
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On July 26 2014 01:25 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 05:35 ComaDose wrote:On July 24 2014 20:01 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 24 2014 00:47 ComaDose wrote:On July 23 2014 23:40 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 23 2014 23:31 ComaDose wrote:On July 23 2014 21:17 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 22 2014 23:04 ComaDose wrote:
you have very good arguments against items but i'm not sure who you are talking to.
you honestly believe the other mobas fucked up by having items? no advantage for winning? sounds like a mentality oriented towards mario party mini games not so much mobas.
talkin bout unfair advantage to people who put in more work like you never played an mmo or something?
when i want to play chess i play sc2, when i want to tune a build to get a bit more out of my char i play lol, when i want to watch diablo superplex kerrigan i play HotS. I'm not gonna wana see that less if diablo gets 5% movespeed more cause he plays everyday. i just think everyone's over reacting like they are really expecting this to be the next one true moba saving esports. half the people complaining have never even played it. MOBAs became mainstream with Dota. Neither Dota nor Dota 2 gives you an advantage for winning. So no, it's not a Mario Party mentality, it's a MOBA mentality that the playing field is level and that you don't get an advantage for paying real money or grinding more. Again, if it's such a great idea, why don't you ask them to add it to SC2. Then when you want to play chess, you can play chess. yeah when you are winning in dota you buy better items. you said they fucked up by having items. HotS is about fixing the snowball, not about starting it up again by repeating the mistakes of other MOBAs through the addition of items but you misunderstood what i ment. also dota doesn't get to define a genre anymore than starcraft does. I understand why people don't want to grind but I can't believe how entitled you all feel. Do you read? As I said, items are not the same as artifacts. Items are within-game. They do not give you an advantage from outside of the game. Everyone starts the game with the same potential to buy items. Artifacts come from grinding and winning previous games, not within the current game, to give you an advantage in the current game. Unlike items, with artifacts, you are already ahead before the game even starts compared to someone who doesn't have it. Why is that so hard to understand? Why do you fail to understand such a simple concept? Should winning 50 SC2 games unlock a +2 damage to your marines in all future SC2 games? I understood what you meant perfectly: you said "when i want to play chess i play sc2". Well, let's add that +2 damage unlock to SC2, because it's such a great idea, and see how you enjoy SC2 as chess now. dog you're real mad and not really listening to what i'm saying. it's like we are having two different conversations. I know what artifacts are which is why i was surprised when you started talking about items, but i responded to what you said about items. On July 24 2014 00:42 -Celestial- wrote:
Do not ever forget that you're a customer. They are NOT doing us a favour by utilising this business model, they're trying to make money off us. yeah i think they picked the model that demonstrated the most profit in the market and people want them to change it so they can play at the highest level as soon as they install. which while would be fun isn't really necessary or lucrative. You said: On July 22 2014 22:40 ComaDose wrote:
"give us more ways to customize our characters"
"okay here"
"fuck you dead game worse than lol" Show me where people were asking for artifacts? If the model where everyday plays on a fair and equal playing field isn't "necessary or lucrative", then why doesn't SC2 switch to that model and add artifacts? Who cares about fair? you must realize what you are asking of me has nothing to do with what i said right? oh i just remembered you were the guy talking about this stuff? dude thats.... you need to realize what you want isn't what everyone else wants. i stand by my original assertion that if you don't want items or last hitting or any advantage for doing better than your opponent so far in the current game then the moba genre is probably not what you are looking for. like how do you feel about levels? lol. the same reason sc2 doesn't change is the same/opposite reason MMO's wont start you at max level with legendary gear. cry cry who cares about fair. On July 24 2014 08:46 -Celestial- wrote:On July 24 2014 00:47 ComaDose wrote:On July 24 2014 00:42 -Celestial- wrote:
Do not ever forget that you're a customer. They are NOT doing us a favour by utilising this business model, they're trying to make money off us. yeah i think they picked the model that demonstrated the most profit in the market and people want them to change it so they can play at the highest level as soon as they install. which while would be fun isn't really necessary or lucrative. Just because a payment model makes money does not make it consumer friendly or what people want or even the most desirable model for the company. Business is more complicated than that. The breaking up of games into little chunks of DLC is horrendously anti-consumer and lots of people want that changed, but it makes a decent amount of money. Despite LoL's "success" there are plenty of people questioning and protesting its horrendously exploitative business model. Mobile games are another good example. Happily it is NOT just all about money, image does matter. Dungeon Keeper mobile probably made a boatload for the pitiful amount it must have cost to develop, but its still a failure as a game because the consumers reacted badly to it, gave it bad press and hence negatively impacted how the market viewed its stock. Look at the recent statements out of EA with respect to that game...they're all effectively press releases directed at their shareholders to calm them down. well i'm sure blizzards divisions that are making these decisions have considered this but maybe you should apply for a position. iuno why you put "success" like that tho. seems pretty unquestionable. You argued that people were asking for customization as a defense to Blizzard adding artifacts. But the fact is no-one asked for artifacts, so your argument that people where asking for customization as a justification for artifacts is utter nonsense. This is like saying people have asked for more skill differentiation in HotS, and then Blizzard adds this: Show nested quote +A talent that grants you +1 basic attack permanently under the following conditions: "If you hit a minion with 2 basic attacks where the time between the two attacks is between 1.4 to 1.6 seconds, then a pop-up appears with a simple arithmetic problem, like '4x13=?', and if you type in the correct answer within 2 seconds,you are awarded +1 basic attack permanently" Stop complaining about this arithmetic problem gimmick, we added it because people asked for skill differentiation. Your assertion that if I don't want last hitting or items then MOBAs are not for me is also complete nonsense. Yesterday, there was a MOBA that had no last hitting, no items, no major snowballing, and where everyone starts the match on an equal playing field. That MOBA was called Heroes of the Storm. In fact, starting matches on an equal playing field is quintessential to MOBAs, and originated with the first successful MOBA, which is Dota. Removing such a core feature is exactly like removing the core feature of SC2 that everyone starts matches on an equal playing field. Your argument basically boils down to "I claim that MOBAs don't have a level playing field by definition, and I claim that SC2 does by definition, so get over it". It's not a valid argument, it's semantics and nonsense, vacuous and without substance. And it's not even correct as Dota proves.
i wasn't talking about entering the game on a level playing field, nor have i ever said anything in defense of artifacts, not sure if you quoted the right person.
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On July 26 2014 01:46 Excalibur_Z wrote:
The obvious answer is that the timing attack window is arbitrary and answering a math problem detracts from normal game flow (in addition to itself being arbitrary). It's much easier to understand "whoever lands the killing blow gets the credit" because that's how it works in FPS games (player to get the killing blow gets the kill credit), Starcraft (unit to get the killing blow gets the kill credit), existing MOBA titles, lots of things. There's probably a more elegant way to differentiate skill than rehashing last hitting, and this probably isn't the last iteration we'll see of it.
What should be defined as part of the "game flow"? The most intuitive answer is fighting without your hero. In that case, dancing around to deny and last hit also detracts from game flow, and is also arbitrary. Of course, one can define dancing around to last hit as part of game flow, just as one can define adding an arithmetic problem after 2 hits within 1.4 to 1.6 seconds, as also part of game flow. Why does it matter who gets the last hit? It's arbitrary that it does. Last hitting is basically tradition. It's always worked that way in previous games. But it's a bad tradition, and by playing HotS we can see how dumb and unintuitive it was and that it doesn't need to exist.
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On July 26 2014 01:58 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 01:25 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 25 2014 05:35 ComaDose wrote:On July 24 2014 20:01 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 24 2014 00:47 ComaDose wrote:On July 23 2014 23:40 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 23 2014 23:31 ComaDose wrote:On July 23 2014 21:17 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 22 2014 23:04 ComaDose wrote:
you have very good arguments against items but i'm not sure who you are talking to.
you honestly believe the other mobas fucked up by having items? no advantage for winning? sounds like a mentality oriented towards mario party mini games not so much mobas.
talkin bout unfair advantage to people who put in more work like you never played an mmo or something?
when i want to play chess i play sc2, when i want to tune a build to get a bit more out of my char i play lol, when i want to watch diablo superplex kerrigan i play HotS. I'm not gonna wana see that less if diablo gets 5% movespeed more cause he plays everyday. i just think everyone's over reacting like they are really expecting this to be the next one true moba saving esports. half the people complaining have never even played it. MOBAs became mainstream with Dota. Neither Dota nor Dota 2 gives you an advantage for winning. So no, it's not a Mario Party mentality, it's a MOBA mentality that the playing field is level and that you don't get an advantage for paying real money or grinding more. Again, if it's such a great idea, why don't you ask them to add it to SC2. Then when you want to play chess, you can play chess. yeah when you are winning in dota you buy better items. you said they fucked up by having items. HotS is about fixing the snowball, not about starting it up again by repeating the mistakes of other MOBAs through the addition of items but you misunderstood what i ment. also dota doesn't get to define a genre anymore than starcraft does. I understand why people don't want to grind but I can't believe how entitled you all feel. Do you read? As I said, items are not the same as artifacts. Items are within-game. They do not give you an advantage from outside of the game. Everyone starts the game with the same potential to buy items. Artifacts come from grinding and winning previous games, not within the current game, to give you an advantage in the current game. Unlike items, with artifacts, you are already ahead before the game even starts compared to someone who doesn't have it. Why is that so hard to understand? Why do you fail to understand such a simple concept? Should winning 50 SC2 games unlock a +2 damage to your marines in all future SC2 games? I understood what you meant perfectly: you said "when i want to play chess i play sc2". Well, let's add that +2 damage unlock to SC2, because it's such a great idea, and see how you enjoy SC2 as chess now. dog you're real mad and not really listening to what i'm saying. it's like we are having two different conversations. I know what artifacts are which is why i was surprised when you started talking about items, but i responded to what you said about items. On July 24 2014 00:42 -Celestial- wrote:
Do not ever forget that you're a customer. They are NOT doing us a favour by utilising this business model, they're trying to make money off us. yeah i think they picked the model that demonstrated the most profit in the market and people want them to change it so they can play at the highest level as soon as they install. which while would be fun isn't really necessary or lucrative. You said: On July 22 2014 22:40 ComaDose wrote:
"give us more ways to customize our characters"
"okay here"
"fuck you dead game worse than lol" Show me where people were asking for artifacts? If the model where everyday plays on a fair and equal playing field isn't "necessary or lucrative", then why doesn't SC2 switch to that model and add artifacts? Who cares about fair? you must realize what you are asking of me has nothing to do with what i said right? oh i just remembered you were the guy talking about this stuff? dude thats.... you need to realize what you want isn't what everyone else wants. i stand by my original assertion that if you don't want items or last hitting or any advantage for doing better than your opponent so far in the current game then the moba genre is probably not what you are looking for. like how do you feel about levels? lol. the same reason sc2 doesn't change is the same/opposite reason MMO's wont start you at max level with legendary gear. cry cry who cares about fair. On July 24 2014 08:46 -Celestial- wrote:On July 24 2014 00:47 ComaDose wrote:On July 24 2014 00:42 -Celestial- wrote:
Do not ever forget that you're a customer. They are NOT doing us a favour by utilising this business model, they're trying to make money off us. yeah i think they picked the model that demonstrated the most profit in the market and people want them to change it so they can play at the highest level as soon as they install. which while would be fun isn't really necessary or lucrative. Just because a payment model makes money does not make it consumer friendly or what people want or even the most desirable model for the company. Business is more complicated than that. The breaking up of games into little chunks of DLC is horrendously anti-consumer and lots of people want that changed, but it makes a decent amount of money. Despite LoL's "success" there are plenty of people questioning and protesting its horrendously exploitative business model. Mobile games are another good example. Happily it is NOT just all about money, image does matter. Dungeon Keeper mobile probably made a boatload for the pitiful amount it must have cost to develop, but its still a failure as a game because the consumers reacted badly to it, gave it bad press and hence negatively impacted how the market viewed its stock. Look at the recent statements out of EA with respect to that game...they're all effectively press releases directed at their shareholders to calm them down. well i'm sure blizzards divisions that are making these decisions have considered this but maybe you should apply for a position. iuno why you put "success" like that tho. seems pretty unquestionable. You argued that people were asking for customization as a defense to Blizzard adding artifacts. But the fact is no-one asked for artifacts, so your argument that people where asking for customization as a justification for artifacts is utter nonsense. This is like saying people have asked for more skill differentiation in HotS, and then Blizzard adds this: A talent that grants you +1 basic attack permanently under the following conditions: "If you hit a minion with 2 basic attacks where the time between the two attacks is between 1.4 to 1.6 seconds, then a pop-up appears with a simple arithmetic problem, like '4x13=?', and if you type in the correct answer within 2 seconds,you are awarded +1 basic attack permanently" Stop complaining about this arithmetic problem gimmick, we added it because people asked for skill differentiation. Your assertion that if I don't want last hitting or items then MOBAs are not for me is also complete nonsense. Yesterday, there was a MOBA that had no last hitting, no items, no major snowballing, and where everyone starts the match on an equal playing field. That MOBA was called Heroes of the Storm. In fact, starting matches on an equal playing field is quintessential to MOBAs, and originated with the first successful MOBA, which is Dota. Removing such a core feature is exactly like removing the core feature of SC2 that everyone starts matches on an equal playing field. Your argument basically boils down to "I claim that MOBAs don't have a level playing field by definition, and I claim that SC2 does by definition, so get over it". It's not a valid argument, it's semantics and nonsense, vacuous and without substance. And it's not even correct as Dota proves. i wasn't talking about entering the game on a level playing field, nor have i ever said anything in defense of artifacts, not sure if you quoted the right person.
Yes, you did: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/games/432609-heroes-of-the-storm-blizzard-all-stars-announced?page=96#1917
You can't lie your way out of this. From the context in the thread, and the fact that it can't possibly be about anything else, that was clearly in relation to artifacts.
Here's you talking about aritifacts again and arguing against a leveling playing field in MOBAs:
you honestly believe the other mobas fucked up by having items? no advantage for winning? sounds like a mentality oriented towards mario party mini games not so much mobas.
talkin bout unfair advantage to people who put in more work like you never played an mmo or something?when i want to play chess i play sc2, when i want to tune a build to get a bit more out of my char i play lol, when i want to watch diablo superplex kerrigan i play HotS. I'm not gonna wana see that less if diablo gets 5% movespeed more cause he plays everyday. i just think everyone's over reacting like they are really expecting this to be the next one true moba saving esports. half the people complaining have never even played it. Source: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/games/432609-heroes-of-the-storm-blizzard-all-stars-announced?page=96#1919
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On July 26 2014 01:31 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 05:56 Sn0_Man wrote:On July 25 2014 05:35 ComaDose wrote:oh i just remembered you were the guy talking about this stuff? Oh dear lol I hadn't realized that thread was made by this guy. Ahahaha oh dear. Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 06:07 Plansix wrote:On July 25 2014 05:56 Sn0_Man wrote:On July 25 2014 05:35 ComaDose wrote:oh i just remembered you were the guy talking about this stuff? Oh dear lol I hadn't realized that thread was made by this guy. Ahahaha oh dear. On the topic of success, EA's business practices could be referred to as "successful" but that doesn't stop consumers from condemning them, and rightly so. People defending the HoTS F2P model as "successful" need to understand that a "successful" model doesn't mean its good for the consumers and that we should still criticize it if we feel justified doing so. ComaDose, where did you find that gem? That shit is amazing. How did you even know it existed? What's so hilarious about it? In terms of gameplay, HotS successfully and triumphantly fixes all of the terrible, arbitrary, unfun and destructive design mistakes that has afflicted Dota 2 and all other MOBAs. This was at least true before yesterday, but as taken a giant step backwards with the reintroduction of the stupid pointless gimmick of last hitting. In my opinion, of course. People are entitled to their own opinions on what is better.
There we go, that is so much better. It makes the reductive hyperbole so much easier to deal with.
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On July 26 2014 02:04 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 01:58 ComaDose wrote:On July 26 2014 01:25 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 25 2014 05:35 ComaDose wrote:On July 24 2014 20:01 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 24 2014 00:47 ComaDose wrote:On July 23 2014 23:40 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 23 2014 23:31 ComaDose wrote:On July 23 2014 21:17 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 22 2014 23:04 ComaDose wrote:
you have very good arguments against items but i'm not sure who you are talking to.
you honestly believe the other mobas fucked up by having items? no advantage for winning? sounds like a mentality oriented towards mario party mini games not so much mobas.
talkin bout unfair advantage to people who put in more work like you never played an mmo or something?
when i want to play chess i play sc2, when i want to tune a build to get a bit more out of my char i play lol, when i want to watch diablo superplex kerrigan i play HotS. I'm not gonna wana see that less if diablo gets 5% movespeed more cause he plays everyday. i just think everyone's over reacting like they are really expecting this to be the next one true moba saving esports. half the people complaining have never even played it. MOBAs became mainstream with Dota. Neither Dota nor Dota 2 gives you an advantage for winning. So no, it's not a Mario Party mentality, it's a MOBA mentality that the playing field is level and that you don't get an advantage for paying real money or grinding more. Again, if it's such a great idea, why don't you ask them to add it to SC2. Then when you want to play chess, you can play chess. yeah when you are winning in dota you buy better items. you said they fucked up by having items. HotS is about fixing the snowball, not about starting it up again by repeating the mistakes of other MOBAs through the addition of items but you misunderstood what i ment. also dota doesn't get to define a genre anymore than starcraft does. I understand why people don't want to grind but I can't believe how entitled you all feel. Do you read? As I said, items are not the same as artifacts. Items are within-game. They do not give you an advantage from outside of the game. Everyone starts the game with the same potential to buy items. Artifacts come from grinding and winning previous games, not within the current game, to give you an advantage in the current game. Unlike items, with artifacts, you are already ahead before the game even starts compared to someone who doesn't have it. Why is that so hard to understand? Why do you fail to understand such a simple concept? Should winning 50 SC2 games unlock a +2 damage to your marines in all future SC2 games? I understood what you meant perfectly: you said "when i want to play chess i play sc2". Well, let's add that +2 damage unlock to SC2, because it's such a great idea, and see how you enjoy SC2 as chess now. dog you're real mad and not really listening to what i'm saying. it's like we are having two different conversations. I know what artifacts are which is why i was surprised when you started talking about items, but i responded to what you said about items. On July 24 2014 00:42 -Celestial- wrote:
Do not ever forget that you're a customer. They are NOT doing us a favour by utilising this business model, they're trying to make money off us. yeah i think they picked the model that demonstrated the most profit in the market and people want them to change it so they can play at the highest level as soon as they install. which while would be fun isn't really necessary or lucrative. You said: On July 22 2014 22:40 ComaDose wrote:
"give us more ways to customize our characters"
"okay here"
"fuck you dead game worse than lol" Show me where people were asking for artifacts? If the model where everyday plays on a fair and equal playing field isn't "necessary or lucrative", then why doesn't SC2 switch to that model and add artifacts? Who cares about fair? you must realize what you are asking of me has nothing to do with what i said right? oh i just remembered you were the guy talking about this stuff? dude thats.... you need to realize what you want isn't what everyone else wants. i stand by my original assertion that if you don't want items or last hitting or any advantage for doing better than your opponent so far in the current game then the moba genre is probably not what you are looking for. like how do you feel about levels? lol. the same reason sc2 doesn't change is the same/opposite reason MMO's wont start you at max level with legendary gear. cry cry who cares about fair. On July 24 2014 08:46 -Celestial- wrote:On July 24 2014 00:47 ComaDose wrote:On July 24 2014 00:42 -Celestial- wrote:
Do not ever forget that you're a customer. They are NOT doing us a favour by utilising this business model, they're trying to make money off us. yeah i think they picked the model that demonstrated the most profit in the market and people want them to change it so they can play at the highest level as soon as they install. which while would be fun isn't really necessary or lucrative. Just because a payment model makes money does not make it consumer friendly or what people want or even the most desirable model for the company. Business is more complicated than that. The breaking up of games into little chunks of DLC is horrendously anti-consumer and lots of people want that changed, but it makes a decent amount of money. Despite LoL's "success" there are plenty of people questioning and protesting its horrendously exploitative business model. Mobile games are another good example. Happily it is NOT just all about money, image does matter. Dungeon Keeper mobile probably made a boatload for the pitiful amount it must have cost to develop, but its still a failure as a game because the consumers reacted badly to it, gave it bad press and hence negatively impacted how the market viewed its stock. Look at the recent statements out of EA with respect to that game...they're all effectively press releases directed at their shareholders to calm them down. well i'm sure blizzards divisions that are making these decisions have considered this but maybe you should apply for a position. iuno why you put "success" like that tho. seems pretty unquestionable. You argued that people were asking for customization as a defense to Blizzard adding artifacts. But the fact is no-one asked for artifacts, so your argument that people where asking for customization as a justification for artifacts is utter nonsense. This is like saying people have asked for more skill differentiation in HotS, and then Blizzard adds this: A talent that grants you +1 basic attack permanently under the following conditions: "If you hit a minion with 2 basic attacks where the time between the two attacks is between 1.4 to 1.6 seconds, then a pop-up appears with a simple arithmetic problem, like '4x13=?', and if you type in the correct answer within 2 seconds,you are awarded +1 basic attack permanently" Stop complaining about this arithmetic problem gimmick, we added it because people asked for skill differentiation. Your assertion that if I don't want last hitting or items then MOBAs are not for me is also complete nonsense. Yesterday, there was a MOBA that had no last hitting, no items, no major snowballing, and where everyone starts the match on an equal playing field. That MOBA was called Heroes of the Storm. In fact, starting matches on an equal playing field is quintessential to MOBAs, and originated with the first successful MOBA, which is Dota. Removing such a core feature is exactly like removing the core feature of SC2 that everyone starts matches on an equal playing field. Your argument basically boils down to "I claim that MOBAs don't have a level playing field by definition, and I claim that SC2 does by definition, so get over it". It's not a valid argument, it's semantics and nonsense, vacuous and without substance. And it's not even correct as Dota proves. i wasn't talking about entering the game on a level playing field, nor have i ever said anything in defense of artifacts, not sure if you quoted the right person. Yes, you did: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/games/432609-heroes-of-the-storm-blizzard-all-stars-announced?page=96#1917You can't lie your way out of this. From the context in the thread, and the fact that it can't possibly be about anything else, that was clearly in relation to artifacts.
how is that in defense of artifacts?
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EPT
