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On July 24 2014 23:29 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 23:14 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 24 2014 21:41 Destructicon wrote:On July 24 2014 20:10 paralleluniverse wrote:Oh great, another giant step backwards. Last hitting is back as a talent. Last hitting is a stupid pointless gimmick which they should have left buried. If you're going to add this stupid pointless gimmick, why not add a equally pointless gimmicky talent that grants you +1 basic attack permanently under the following conditions: "If you hit a minion with 2 basic attacks where the time between the two attacks is between 1.4 to 1.6 seconds, then a pop-up appears with a simple arithmetic problem, like '4x13=?', and if you type in the correct answer within 2 seconds,you are awarded +1 basic attack permanently"? This patch contains several major changes that is quickly turning the game into LoL. If this game continues on it's path to be LoL, I will quit. Last hitting is not a pointless gimmick, its a expression of skill, its a way to distinguish a good player from a truly fantastic player and its a method of gaining marginal but important incremental advantages that you can use to gain the upper hand on your opponent. This is also an expression of skill: A talent that grants you +1 basic attack permanently under the following conditions: "If you hit a minion with 2 basic attacks where the time between the two attacks is between 1.4 to 1.6 seconds, then a pop-up appears with a simple arithmetic problem, like '4x13=?', and if you type in the correct answer within 2 seconds,you are awarded +1 basic attack permanently" It takes skill to do this. This argument is really, really, really dumb. Last hitting isn't pointless in games that have it and if you don't like it, you are entitled to that opinion. No need to make hyperbolic arguments to attempt to justify your opinion on the subject.
It's not hyperbolic, it's a simple comparison about 2 mechanics that shouldn't need to exist in any MOBA. Last hitting originated from the accidental, marginal and minor happenstance that gold and XP from killing creeps in WC3 was given out to the last hitter. A gimmick that had little effect in WC3, while making absolutely no sense to be retained and promoted as a central gameplay mechanic in MOBAs.
You say that last hitting isn't pointless. Then why isn't the following skill-based mechanic also not pointless?
A talent that grants you +1 basic attack permanently under the following conditions: "If you hit a minion with 2 basic attacks where the time between the two attacks is between 1.4 to 1.6 seconds, then a pop-up appears with a simple arithmetic problem, like '4x13=?', and if you type in the correct answer within 2 seconds,you are awarded +1 basic attack permanently"
How is last hitting more worthy and less pointless than the above? It's not, both are equally pointless. Given that humans can only do finite number of things at one time, it's a matter of defining what sort of skill and behavior you want to incentivize and reward, what creates interesting and fun gameplay, and what is impressive to see. Neither last hitting nor the above skill-based mechanic fits the criteria (creating more team fights via map objectives does). They are equally stupid pointless gimmicks. And Blizzard's unfortunate readdition of last hitting, an archaic gimmick that should have remained buried, makes the game considerably worse.
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On July 24 2014 23:44 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 23:29 Plansix wrote:On July 24 2014 23:14 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 24 2014 21:41 Destructicon wrote:On July 24 2014 20:10 paralleluniverse wrote:Oh great, another giant step backwards. Last hitting is back as a talent. Last hitting is a stupid pointless gimmick which they should have left buried. If you're going to add this stupid pointless gimmick, why not add a equally pointless gimmicky talent that grants you +1 basic attack permanently under the following conditions: "If you hit a minion with 2 basic attacks where the time between the two attacks is between 1.4 to 1.6 seconds, then a pop-up appears with a simple arithmetic problem, like '4x13=?', and if you type in the correct answer within 2 seconds,you are awarded +1 basic attack permanently"? This patch contains several major changes that is quickly turning the game into LoL. If this game continues on it's path to be LoL, I will quit. Last hitting is not a pointless gimmick, its a expression of skill, its a way to distinguish a good player from a truly fantastic player and its a method of gaining marginal but important incremental advantages that you can use to gain the upper hand on your opponent. This is also an expression of skill: A talent that grants you +1 basic attack permanently under the following conditions: "If you hit a minion with 2 basic attacks where the time between the two attacks is between 1.4 to 1.6 seconds, then a pop-up appears with a simple arithmetic problem, like '4x13=?', and if you type in the correct answer within 2 seconds,you are awarded +1 basic attack permanently" It takes skill to do this. This argument is really, really, really dumb. Last hitting isn't pointless in games that have it and if you don't like it, you are entitled to that opinion. No need to make hyperbolic arguments to attempt to justify your opinion on the subject. It's not hyperbolic, it's a simple comparison about 2 mechanics that shouldn't need to exist in any MOBA. Last hitting originated from the accidental, marginal and minor happenstance that gold and XP from killing creeps in WC3 was given out to the last hitter. A gimmick that had little effect in WC3, while making absolutely no sense to be retained and promoted as a central gameplay mechanic in MOBAs. You say that last hitting isn't pointless. Then why isn't the following skill-based mechanic also not pointless? Show nested quote +A talent that grants you +1 basic attack permanently under the following conditions: "If you hit a minion with 2 basic attacks where the time between the two attacks is between 1.4 to 1.6 seconds, then a pop-up appears with a simple arithmetic problem, like '4x13=?', and if you type in the correct answer within 2 seconds,you are awarded +1 basic attack permanently" How is last hitting more worthy and less pointless than the above? It's not, both are equally pointless. Given that humans can only do finite number of things at one time, it's a matter of defining what sort of skill and behavior you want to incentivize and reward, what creates interesting and fun gameplay, and what is impressive to see. Neither last hitting nor the above skill-based mechanic fits the criteria (creating more team fights via map objectives does). They are equally stupid pointless gimmicks. And Blizzard's readdition of last hitting, an archaic gimmick that should have remained buried, makes the game considerably worse.
You seem to be confused as to what personal opinion is. Your enjoyment of a specific mechanic does not directly correlate with how worth while it is. Although it may not have a place in Heroes, which I agree, it does not make the mechanic pointless just because you don't like it. The back and forth dance of denying and last hitting is quite fun in dota, even if you don't think it is.
You can make your argument without these sweeping statements of the overall worth of a part of a game. If you want to say that last hitting or something like doesn't really fit in with the design of Heroes, folks might be inclined to agree.
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From the Bnet quote it doesn't particularly look like you have to lasthit creeps just that you have to be hitting them when they die. Which means what blizzard is actually doing is creating a small incentive for right-click based heroes to stay in lanes and push them with right clicks whenever possible. I don't have an issue with them creating different incentives at different places on the map. In fact, that seems to be exactly what you like about the game.
On the actual subject of lasthitting as a game mechanic: Last hitting, as implemented in dota, is fine. Each lasthit can be contested by each side and the side that demonstrates better timing and understanding of all the underlying mechanics such as creep aggro, damage ranges etc will benefit more. It is both undeniably skill testing and game-appropriate much like chrono-boost or larva inject are in SC2.
Last hitting, as implemented in LoL, is obviously far less of an interesting and relevant mechanic because there simply isn't any head to head competition for lasthits etc. However, it still allows more skilled players to get more out of a lane etc, which is a good thing. + Show Spoiler +This wasn't meant to be a "LoL vs Dota" comparison but rather a discussion on how the specific implementation of a mechanic based on the design ethos of the game influences the value of that mechanic's existence in that particular game.
Your comparison "mechanic" is about as thematically appropriate as asking chess players to lift some weights to determine if a move succeeds or similar. So while you could argue that it is skill testing it's both clearly testing the wrong skills as well as clearly unreasonably arbitrary and irrelevant (no, lasthitting isn't arbitrary even if you can't understand why)
I can understand why a game would opt to eschew lasthitting altogether although tic-tac-toe is a boring game if u catch my drift
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On July 24 2014 20:01 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 00:47 ComaDose wrote:On July 23 2014 23:40 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 23 2014 23:31 ComaDose wrote:On July 23 2014 21:17 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 22 2014 23:04 ComaDose wrote:
you have very good arguments against items but i'm not sure who you are talking to.
you honestly believe the other mobas fucked up by having items? no advantage for winning? sounds like a mentality oriented towards mario party mini games not so much mobas.
talkin bout unfair advantage to people who put in more work like you never played an mmo or something?
when i want to play chess i play sc2, when i want to tune a build to get a bit more out of my char i play lol, when i want to watch diablo superplex kerrigan i play HotS. I'm not gonna wana see that less if diablo gets 5% movespeed more cause he plays everyday. i just think everyone's over reacting like they are really expecting this to be the next one true moba saving esports. half the people complaining have never even played it. MOBAs became mainstream with Dota. Neither Dota nor Dota 2 gives you an advantage for winning. So no, it's not a Mario Party mentality, it's a MOBA mentality that the playing field is level and that you don't get an advantage for paying real money or grinding more. Again, if it's such a great idea, why don't you ask them to add it to SC2. Then when you want to play chess, you can play chess. yeah when you are winning in dota you buy better items. you said they fucked up by having items. HotS is about fixing the snowball, not about starting it up again by repeating the mistakes of other MOBAs through the addition of items but you misunderstood what i ment. also dota doesn't get to define a genre anymore than starcraft does. I understand why people don't want to grind but I can't believe how entitled you all feel. Do you read? As I said, items are not the same as artifacts. Items are within-game. They do not give you an advantage from outside of the game. Everyone starts the game with the same potential to buy items. Artifacts come from grinding and winning previous games, not within the current game, to give you an advantage in the current game. Unlike items, with artifacts, you are already ahead before the game even starts compared to someone who doesn't have it. Why is that so hard to understand? Why do you fail to understand such a simple concept? Should winning 50 SC2 games unlock a +2 damage to your marines in all future SC2 games? I understood what you meant perfectly: you said "when i want to play chess i play sc2". Well, let's add that +2 damage unlock to SC2, because it's such a great idea, and see how you enjoy SC2 as chess now. dog you're real mad and not really listening to what i'm saying. it's like we are having two different conversations. I know what artifacts are which is why i was surprised when you started talking about items, but i responded to what you said about items. On July 24 2014 00:42 -Celestial- wrote:
Do not ever forget that you're a customer. They are NOT doing us a favour by utilising this business model, they're trying to make money off us. yeah i think they picked the model that demonstrated the most profit in the market and people want them to change it so they can play at the highest level as soon as they install. which while would be fun isn't really necessary or lucrative. You said: Show nested quote +On July 22 2014 22:40 ComaDose wrote:
"give us more ways to customize our characters"
"okay here"
"fuck you dead game worse than lol" Show me where people were asking for artifacts? If the model where everyday plays on a fair and equal playing field isn't "necessary or lucrative", then why doesn't SC2 switch to that model and add artifacts? Who cares about fair?
you must realize what you are asking of me has nothing to do with what i said right?
oh i just remembered you were the guy talking about this stuff? dude thats.... you need to realize what you want isn't what everyone else wants. i stand by my original assertion that if you don't want items or last hitting or any advantage for doing better than your opponent so far in the current game then the moba genre is probably not what you are looking for. like how do you feel about levels? lol. the same reason sc2 doesn't change is the same/opposite reason MMO's wont start you at max level with legendary gear. cry cry who cares about fair.
On July 24 2014 08:46 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 00:47 ComaDose wrote:On July 24 2014 00:42 -Celestial- wrote:
Do not ever forget that you're a customer. They are NOT doing us a favour by utilising this business model, they're trying to make money off us. yeah i think they picked the model that demonstrated the most profit in the market and people want them to change it so they can play at the highest level as soon as they install. which while would be fun isn't really necessary or lucrative. Just because a payment model makes money does not make it consumer friendly or what people want or even the most desirable model for the company. Business is more complicated than that. The breaking up of games into little chunks of DLC is horrendously anti-consumer and lots of people want that changed, but it makes a decent amount of money. Despite LoL's "success" there are plenty of people questioning and protesting its horrendously exploitative business model. Mobile games are another good example. Happily it is NOT just all about money, image does matter. Dungeon Keeper mobile probably made a boatload for the pitiful amount it must have cost to develop, but its still a failure as a game because the consumers reacted badly to it, gave it bad press and hence negatively impacted how the market viewed its stock. Look at the recent statements out of EA with respect to that game...they're all effectively press releases directed at their shareholders to calm them down.
well i'm sure blizzards divisions that are making these decisions have considered this but maybe you should apply for a position. iuno why you put "success" like that tho. seems pretty unquestionable.
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On July 25 2014 05:35 ComaDose wrote:oh i just remembered you were the guy talking about this stuff?
Oh dear lol I hadn't realized that thread was made by this guy. Ahahaha oh dear.
On the topic of success, EA's business practices could be referred to as "successful" but that doesn't stop consumers from condemning them, and rightly so. People defending the HoTS F2P model as "successful" need to understand that a "successful" model doesn't mean its good for the consumers and that we should still criticize it if we feel justified doing so.
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last hitting is like dribbling in basketball
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On July 25 2014 05:56 Sn0_Man wrote:Oh dear lol I hadn't realized that thread was made by this guy. Ahahaha oh dear. On the topic of success, EA's business practices could be referred to as "successful" but that doesn't stop consumers from condemning them, and rightly so. People defending the HoTS F2P model as "successful" need to understand that a "successful" model doesn't mean its good for the consumers and that we should still criticize it if we feel justified doing so.
ComaDose, where did you find that gem? That shit is amazing. How did you even know it existed?
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On July 25 2014 05:59 trifecta wrote:
last hitting is like dribbling in basketball
Ehh.. I'd say right-clicking is more like dribbling than last-hitting is.
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On July 25 2014 06:07 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 05:56 Sn0_Man wrote:On July 25 2014 05:35 ComaDose wrote:oh i just remembered you were the guy talking about this stuff? Oh dear lol I hadn't realized that thread was made by this guy. Ahahaha oh dear. On the topic of success, EA's business practices could be referred to as "successful" but that doesn't stop consumers from condemning them, and rightly so. People defending the HoTS F2P model as "successful" need to understand that a "successful" model doesn't mean its good for the consumers and that we should still criticize it if we feel justified doing so. ComaDose, where did you find that gem? That shit is amazing. How did you even know it existed?
he bragged out it in this thread earlyer
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this grinding system is somehow laughable if compared with other mobas that are a lot less p2w, or entirely free like dota2.
but then you see all the diehard fanboys that blizzard has, and know that they will gladly pay $100 if this mean an early advantage that helps to climb the ladder.
best thing is to move on. the market soon will be saturated by mobas hopefully with a friendlier monetization model.
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I wouldn't trust parraleluniverse's arguments because he uses the well known condescending example that goes "what if we added random math equations to the game, would that require skill?"
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On July 25 2014 06:23 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 06:07 Plansix wrote:On July 25 2014 05:56 Sn0_Man wrote:On July 25 2014 05:35 ComaDose wrote:oh i just remembered you were the guy talking about this stuff? Oh dear lol I hadn't realized that thread was made by this guy. Ahahaha oh dear. On the topic of success, EA's business practices could be referred to as "successful" but that doesn't stop consumers from condemning them, and rightly so. People defending the HoTS F2P model as "successful" need to understand that a "successful" model doesn't mean its good for the consumers and that we should still criticize it if we feel justified doing so. ComaDose, where did you find that gem? That shit is amazing. How did you even know it existed? he bragged out it in this thread earlyer
Hahahahahahaha
Plays for a month, thinks he's an expert in moba design
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It would be rude to harp on this too much, but there happen to be some real gems out of the OP of that thread on page 2.
Such as + Show Spoiler +"If the level range is 1-50 like WC3, then most people should be near level 25, because that's the mean" in reference to the leveling system (admittedly before it was properly implemented but still utterly hilarious)
And + Show Spoiler +"You have no idea how balance works. Balance does not mean unbeatable, and this applies to Riki and Ursa"
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On July 25 2014 06:23 xuanzue wrote:
this grinding system is somehow laughable if compared with other mobas that are a lot less p2w, or entirely free like dota2.
but then you see all the diehard fanboys that blizzard has, and know that they will gladly pay $100 if this mean an early advantage that helps to climb the ladder.
best thing is to move on. the market soon will be saturated by mobas hopefully with a friendlier monetization model.
I actually don't know moba that is p2w. The market is currently saturated by all kinds of Mobas... And they run pretty much the same model with the unlocks. Maybe Smite has the fairest model where you pay 30 dollars for all the gods and that's it. Don't hold your breath for "friendlier monetization models" 
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On July 25 2014 06:23 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 06:07 Plansix wrote:On July 25 2014 05:56 Sn0_Man wrote:On July 25 2014 05:35 ComaDose wrote:oh i just remembered you were the guy talking about this stuff? Oh dear lol I hadn't realized that thread was made by this guy. Ahahaha oh dear. On the topic of success, EA's business practices could be referred to as "successful" but that doesn't stop consumers from condemning them, and rightly so. People defending the HoTS F2P model as "successful" need to understand that a "successful" model doesn't mean its good for the consumers and that we should still criticize it if we feel justified doing so. ComaDose, where did you find that gem? That shit is amazing. How did you even know it existed? he bragged out it in this thread earlyer
It was better when he posted it in GD and invented the graph meme.
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Graph meme, do tell? I did not know the deep history of that crappy thread.
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On July 25 2014 07:12 Pr0wler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 06:23 xuanzue wrote:
this grinding system is somehow laughable if compared with other mobas that are a lot less p2w, or entirely free like dota2.
but then you see all the diehard fanboys that blizzard has, and know that they will gladly pay $100 if this mean an early advantage that helps to climb the ladder.
best thing is to move on. the market soon will be saturated by mobas hopefully with a friendlier monetization model. I actually don't know moba that is p2w. The market is currently saturated by all kinds of Mobas... And they run pretty much the same model with the unlocks. Maybe Smite has the fairest model where you pay 30 dollars for all the gods and that's it. Don't hold your breath for "friendlier monetization models"
Apparently 100% utterly free isn't "the fairest model'?
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coming from Dota this game just feels like a long boring grind or is it just me? This moba game style is more automatic and linear than grinding levels in WoW hmm
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Cascadia1753 Posts
On July 24 2014 22:55 PRJ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 21:41 Destructicon wrote:On July 24 2014 20:10 paralleluniverse wrote:Oh great, another giant step backwards. Last hitting is back as a talent. Last hitting is a stupid pointless gimmick which they should have left buried. If you're going to add this stupid pointless gimmick, why not add a equally pointless gimmicky talent that grants you +1 basic attack permanently under the following conditions: "If you hit a minion with 2 basic attacks where the time between the two attacks is between 1.4 to 1.6 seconds, then a pop-up appears with a simple arithmetic problem, like '4x13=?', and if you type in the correct answer within 2 seconds,you are awarded +1 basic attack permanently"? This patch contains several major changes that is quickly turning the game into LoL. If this game continues on it's path to be LoL, I will quit. Last hitting is not a pointless gimmick, its a expression of skill, its a way to distinguish a good player from a truly fantastic player and its a method of gaining marginal but important incremental advantages that you can use to gain the upper hand on your opponent. u know what's also an expression of skill? requiring you to solve math proofs in order to buy an item in dota now the game is even more skill-based, get on my level
Wow you do math proofs while playing dota? next level shit here.
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On July 25 2014 07:12 Pr0wler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2014 06:23 xuanzue wrote:
this grinding system is somehow laughable if compared with other mobas that are a lot less p2w, or entirely free like dota2.
but then you see all the diehard fanboys that blizzard has, and know that they will gladly pay $100 if this mean an early advantage that helps to climb the ladder.
best thing is to move on. the market soon will be saturated by mobas hopefully with a friendlier monetization model. I actually don't know moba that is p2w. The market is currently saturated by all kinds of Mobas... And they run pretty much the same model with the unlocks. Maybe Smite has the fairest model where you pay 30 dollars for all the gods and that's it. Don't hold your breath for "friendlier monetization models"
I don't think that other guy realizes it's already saturated and Blizzard being late to the dance doesn't help them at all.
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EPT
