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Diablo2PVPER writes:
Lets play chess!! Except that I get to start out with two queens because I have been playing longer. I mean you need to have a progression system of starting out with more queens or else why would I keep playing chess? Oh my gawd!! Source: http://us.battle.net/heroes/en/forum/topic/13567586799#1
BloodGod22 replies:
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Brunei Darussalam566 Posts
On July 23 2014 23:35 Pr0wler wrote:
Aaand then it was dwarfed by LoL(btw its funny that you call it MOBA) that gives all sorts of advantages before you reach the max level and even after that to some extent. Turns out people don't care.
LoL's initial rise to fame had a lot to do with the game's simpler design and easier access (f2p game with stand alone client vs. purchasing or pirating wc3+ft + dling updated dota map + using third party matchmaking software).
Nowadays its f2p model is highly criticized by a significant part of its player base.
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On July 23 2014 23:31 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 21:17 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 22 2014 23:04 ComaDose wrote:
you have very good arguments against items but i'm not sure who you are talking to.
you honestly believe the other mobas fucked up by having items? no advantage for winning? sounds like a mentality oriented towards mario party mini games not so much mobas.
talkin bout unfair advantage to people who put in more work like you never played an mmo or something?
when i want to play chess i play sc2, when i want to tune a build to get a bit more out of my char i play lol, when i want to watch diablo superplex kerrigan i play HotS. I'm not gonna wana see that less if diablo gets 5% movespeed more cause he plays everyday. i just think everyone's over reacting like they are really expecting this to be the next one true moba saving esports. half the people complaining have never even played it. MOBAs became mainstream with Dota. Neither Dota nor Dota 2 gives you an advantage for winning. So no, it's not a Mario Party mentality, it's a MOBA mentality that the playing field is level and that you don't get an advantage for paying real money or grinding more. Again, if it's such a great idea, why don't you ask them to add it to SC2. Then when you want to play chess, you can play chess. yeah when you are winning in dota you buy better items. you said they fucked up by having items.
To try to give you an example of what I think paralleluniverse is trying to get at:
- In games like DOTA2 and SC2 each individual game is independent of every other individual game. Nothing that happens in one game will influence what happens in another. So even if you get 50,000 gold ahead in a game of DOTA2 and crush or if you get five bases to one in SC2 then that won't effect a future game in any way. Each game is individually inherently fair and even and the only way that changes is if you make mistakes through what you choose to do within a match. Each game is purely based on your individual skill and not artificially on the amount of time you've played the game.
- In games like LoL and this new system for Heroes of the Storm games are to a certain extent contingent on the outcomes of other games. Playing gets you points to buy stuff. But winning gets you MORE points to buy stuff. Having more stuff (such as these artefact bonuses) is preferable to having less stuff. So the person who gets off to a good start has an advantage over someone who doesn't. The person who has been playing longer or more has an inherent advantage over and above the extra practice and experience. This difference may be large or small, but either way it matters and it makes each individual game inherently unfair and uneven from the very beginning through no mistake of your own in that particular match.
Show nested quote +HotS is about fixing the snowball, not about starting it up again by repeating the mistakes of other MOBAs through the addition of items but you misunderstood what i ment. also dota doesn't get to define a genre anymore than starcraft does. I understand why people don't want to grind but I can't believe how entitled you all feel.
"Entitled" is one of the stupidest things ever to come into parlance amongst the gaming community.
No, it isn't entitled. None of it is. Even stating that all of the heroes should be free a la DOTA2 isn't entitled because this isn't a bloody charitable cause. Its a commerical project on the part of Blizzard and we are the customers. They're not making it "free to play" (though I'd argue that term isn't appropriate really) because they think its nice to do that and want everyone to enjoy it. They're making it that way because they think that by pushing the game out there in that way they can get a sizable enough install base to keep the game running and make money off it.
Do not ever forget that you're a customer. They are NOT doing us a favour by utilising this business model, they're trying to make money off us.
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On July 23 2014 23:40 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 23:31 ComaDose wrote:On July 23 2014 21:17 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 22 2014 23:04 ComaDose wrote:
you have very good arguments against items but i'm not sure who you are talking to.
you honestly believe the other mobas fucked up by having items? no advantage for winning? sounds like a mentality oriented towards mario party mini games not so much mobas.
talkin bout unfair advantage to people who put in more work like you never played an mmo or something?
when i want to play chess i play sc2, when i want to tune a build to get a bit more out of my char i play lol, when i want to watch diablo superplex kerrigan i play HotS. I'm not gonna wana see that less if diablo gets 5% movespeed more cause he plays everyday. i just think everyone's over reacting like they are really expecting this to be the next one true moba saving esports. half the people complaining have never even played it. MOBAs became mainstream with Dota. Neither Dota nor Dota 2 gives you an advantage for winning. So no, it's not a Mario Party mentality, it's a MOBA mentality that the playing field is level and that you don't get an advantage for paying real money or grinding more. Again, if it's such a great idea, why don't you ask them to add it to SC2. Then when you want to play chess, you can play chess. yeah when you are winning in dota you buy better items. you said they fucked up by having items. HotS is about fixing the snowball, not about starting it up again by repeating the mistakes of other MOBAs through the addition of items but you misunderstood what i ment. also dota doesn't get to define a genre anymore than starcraft does. I understand why people don't want to grind but I can't believe how entitled you all feel. Do you read? As I said, items are not the same as artifacts. Items are within-game. They do not give you an advantage from outside of the game. Everyone starts the game with the same potential to buy items. Artifacts come from grinding and winning previous games, not within the current game, to give you an advantage in the current game. Unlike items, with artifacts, you are already ahead before the game even starts compared to someone who doesn't have it. Why is that so hard to understand? Why do you fail to understand such a simple concept? Should winning 50 SC2 games unlock a +2 damage to your marines in all future SC2 games? I understood what you meant perfectly: you said "when i want to play chess i play sc2". Well, let's add that +2 damage unlock to SC2, because it's such a great idea, and see how you enjoy SC2 as chess now.
dog you're real mad and not really listening to what i'm saying. it's like we are having two different conversations. I know what artifacts are which is why i was surprised when you started talking about items, but i responded to what you said about items.
On July 24 2014 00:42 -Celestial- wrote:
Do not ever forget that you're a customer. They are NOT doing us a favour by utilising this business model, they're trying to make money off us.
yeah i think they picked the model that demonstrated the most profit in the market and people want them to change it so they can play at the highest level as soon as they install. which while would be fun isn't really necessary or lucrative.
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Is Stitches OP or is there no MMR system yet?
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On July 24 2014 01:28 Torte de Lini wrote:
Is Stitches OP or is there no MMR system yet?
No idea if there's an MMR, but the playerbase allowed in right now is fairly small, which limits how much MMR you would experience even if there was one working perfectly.
Stitches *might* be OP. Most everybody ranks him as top tank or top tier at least. I'm not sure how much of that is his kit and how much is the fact that his presence in other Dota games means that people have a really good idea how to play him already. But I do know that when I play Nova, I fear him like no other hero; he's got a few things that can reveal you, he's basically immune to your burst damage (like Diablo and ETC), and his hook landing on you is generally a guaranteed kill.
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On July 24 2014 02:51 Yoav wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 01:28 Torte de Lini wrote:
Is Stitches OP or is there no MMR system yet? No idea if there's an MMR, but the playerbase allowed in right now is fairly small, which limits how much MMR you would experience even if there was one working perfectly. Stitches *might* be OP. Most everybody ranks him as top tank or top tier at least. I'm not sure how much of that is his kit and how much is the fact that his presence in other Dota games means that people have a really good idea how to play him already. But I do know that when I play Nova, I fear him like no other hero; he's got a few things that can reveal you, he's basically immune to your burst damage (like Diablo and ETC), and his hook landing on you is generally a guaranteed kill.
He's insanely tanky and that Devour-Regen permanent stack feels insane.
The only issue I have is that his late-game perks are all too good ):
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Well that and he can hook you from like a third of the map away.
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On July 24 2014 00:47 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 00:42 -Celestial- wrote:
Do not ever forget that you're a customer. They are NOT doing us a favour by utilising this business model, they're trying to make money off us. yeah i think they picked the model that demonstrated the most profit in the market and people want them to change it so they can play at the highest level as soon as they install. which while would be fun isn't really necessary or lucrative.
Just because a payment model makes money does not make it consumer friendly or what people want or even the most desirable model for the company. Business is more complicated than that.
The breaking up of games into little chunks of DLC is horrendously anti-consumer and lots of people want that changed, but it makes a decent amount of money. Despite LoL's "success" there are plenty of people questioning and protesting its horrendously exploitative business model. Mobile games are another good example.
Happily it is NOT just all about money, image does matter. Dungeon Keeper mobile probably made a boatload for the pitiful amount it must have cost to develop, but its still a failure as a game because the consumers reacted badly to it, gave it bad press and hence negatively impacted how the market viewed its stock. Look at the recent statements out of EA with respect to that game...they're all effectively press releases directed at their shareholders to calm them down.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On July 23 2014 21:39 paralleluniverse wrote:
Basically, Browder REALLY REALLY LOVES unlocking things. He simply couldn't stop talking about it. He mentions how great they are in Titanfall and other games he plays.
This is really sad
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On July 24 2014 00:47 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2014 23:40 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 23 2014 23:31 ComaDose wrote:On July 23 2014 21:17 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 22 2014 23:04 ComaDose wrote:
you have very good arguments against items but i'm not sure who you are talking to.
you honestly believe the other mobas fucked up by having items? no advantage for winning? sounds like a mentality oriented towards mario party mini games not so much mobas.
talkin bout unfair advantage to people who put in more work like you never played an mmo or something?
when i want to play chess i play sc2, when i want to tune a build to get a bit more out of my char i play lol, when i want to watch diablo superplex kerrigan i play HotS. I'm not gonna wana see that less if diablo gets 5% movespeed more cause he plays everyday. i just think everyone's over reacting like they are really expecting this to be the next one true moba saving esports. half the people complaining have never even played it. MOBAs became mainstream with Dota. Neither Dota nor Dota 2 gives you an advantage for winning. So no, it's not a Mario Party mentality, it's a MOBA mentality that the playing field is level and that you don't get an advantage for paying real money or grinding more. Again, if it's such a great idea, why don't you ask them to add it to SC2. Then when you want to play chess, you can play chess. yeah when you are winning in dota you buy better items. you said they fucked up by having items. HotS is about fixing the snowball, not about starting it up again by repeating the mistakes of other MOBAs through the addition of items but you misunderstood what i ment. also dota doesn't get to define a genre anymore than starcraft does. I understand why people don't want to grind but I can't believe how entitled you all feel. Do you read? As I said, items are not the same as artifacts. Items are within-game. They do not give you an advantage from outside of the game. Everyone starts the game with the same potential to buy items. Artifacts come from grinding and winning previous games, not within the current game, to give you an advantage in the current game. Unlike items, with artifacts, you are already ahead before the game even starts compared to someone who doesn't have it. Why is that so hard to understand? Why do you fail to understand such a simple concept? Should winning 50 SC2 games unlock a +2 damage to your marines in all future SC2 games? I understood what you meant perfectly: you said "when i want to play chess i play sc2". Well, let's add that +2 damage unlock to SC2, because it's such a great idea, and see how you enjoy SC2 as chess now. dog you're real mad and not really listening to what i'm saying. it's like we are having two different conversations. I know what artifacts are which is why i was surprised when you started talking about items, but i responded to what you said about items. Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 00:42 -Celestial- wrote:
Do not ever forget that you're a customer. They are NOT doing us a favour by utilising this business model, they're trying to make money off us. yeah i think they picked the model that demonstrated the most profit in the market and people want them to change it so they can play at the highest level as soon as they install. which while would be fun isn't really necessary or lucrative.
You said:
On July 22 2014 22:40 ComaDose wrote:
"give us more ways to customize our characters"
"okay here"
"fuck you dead game worse than lol"
Show me where people were asking for artifacts?
If the model where everyday plays on a fair and equal playing field isn't "necessary or lucrative", then why doesn't SC2 switch to that model and add artifacts? Who cares about fair?
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Oh great, another giant step backwards. Last hitting is back as a talent.
Last hitting is a stupid pointless gimmick which they should have left buried. If you're going to add this stupid pointless gimmick, why not add a equally pointless gimmicky talent that grants you +1 basic attack permanently under the following conditions: "If you hit a minion with 2 basic attacks where the time between the two attacks is between 1.4 to 1.6 seconds, then a pop-up appears with a simple arithmetic problem, like '4x13=?', and if you type in the correct answer within 2 seconds,you are awarded +1 basic attack permanently"?
This patch contains several major changes that is quickly turning the game into LoL.
If this game continues on it's path to be LoL, I will quit.
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i like last-hitting as a mechanic, its very skill-based and allows the better player to shine.
but it very much goes against what their design philosophy was for this game, its a terrible idea for Heroes.
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4713 Posts
On July 24 2014 20:10 paralleluniverse wrote:Oh great, another giant step backwards. Last hitting is back as a talent. Last hitting is a stupid pointless gimmick which they should have left buried. If you're going to add this stupid pointless gimmick, why not add a equally pointless gimmicky talent that grants you +1 basic attack permanently under the following conditions: "If you hit a minion with 2 basic attacks where the time between the two attacks is between 1.4 to 1.6 seconds, then a pop-up appears with a simple arithmetic problem, like '4x13=?', and if you type in the correct answer within 2 seconds,you are awarded +1 basic attack permanently"? This patch contains several major changes that is quickly turning the game into LoL. If this game continues on it's path to be LoL, I will quit.
Last hitting is not a pointless gimmick, its a expression of skill, its a way to distinguish a good player from a truly fantastic player and its a method of gaining marginal but important incremental advantages that you can use to gain the upper hand on your opponent.
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China6329 Posts
The Artifact system is the final nail in the coffiin for me, game uninstalled.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
Last hitting is not a pointless gimmick, as is demonstrated in games like Dota and League. But as a talent system, that means you need to unlock it? Besides, I thought Blizzard didn't want last hitting anyway.
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On July 24 2014 21:41 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 20:10 paralleluniverse wrote:Oh great, another giant step backwards. Last hitting is back as a talent. Last hitting is a stupid pointless gimmick which they should have left buried. If you're going to add this stupid pointless gimmick, why not add a equally pointless gimmicky talent that grants you +1 basic attack permanently under the following conditions: "If you hit a minion with 2 basic attacks where the time between the two attacks is between 1.4 to 1.6 seconds, then a pop-up appears with a simple arithmetic problem, like '4x13=?', and if you type in the correct answer within 2 seconds,you are awarded +1 basic attack permanently"? This patch contains several major changes that is quickly turning the game into LoL. If this game continues on it's path to be LoL, I will quit. Last hitting is not a pointless gimmick, its a expression of skill, its a way to distinguish a good player from a truly fantastic player and its a method of gaining marginal but important incremental advantages that you can use to gain the upper hand on your opponent.
u know what's also an expression of skill? requiring you to solve math proofs in order to buy an item in dota
now the game is even more skill-based, get on my level
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I think it's likely that they will be keeping this feature all the way to release.
It will be difficult for blizzard to offer "refund" if they are taking it out from the game.
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On July 24 2014 21:41 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 20:10 paralleluniverse wrote:Oh great, another giant step backwards. Last hitting is back as a talent. Last hitting is a stupid pointless gimmick which they should have left buried. If you're going to add this stupid pointless gimmick, why not add a equally pointless gimmicky talent that grants you +1 basic attack permanently under the following conditions: "If you hit a minion with 2 basic attacks where the time between the two attacks is between 1.4 to 1.6 seconds, then a pop-up appears with a simple arithmetic problem, like '4x13=?', and if you type in the correct answer within 2 seconds,you are awarded +1 basic attack permanently"? This patch contains several major changes that is quickly turning the game into LoL. If this game continues on it's path to be LoL, I will quit. Last hitting is not a pointless gimmick, its a expression of skill, its a way to distinguish a good player from a truly fantastic player and its a method of gaining marginal but important incremental advantages that you can use to gain the upper hand on your opponent.
This is also an expression of skill:
A talent that grants you +1 basic attack permanently under the following conditions: "If you hit a minion with 2 basic attacks where the time between the two attacks is between 1.4 to 1.6 seconds, then a pop-up appears with a simple arithmetic problem, like '4x13=?', and if you type in the correct answer within 2 seconds,you are awarded +1 basic attack permanently"
It takes skill to do this.
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On July 24 2014 23:14 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2014 21:41 Destructicon wrote:On July 24 2014 20:10 paralleluniverse wrote:Oh great, another giant step backwards. Last hitting is back as a talent. Last hitting is a stupid pointless gimmick which they should have left buried. If you're going to add this stupid pointless gimmick, why not add a equally pointless gimmicky talent that grants you +1 basic attack permanently under the following conditions: "If you hit a minion with 2 basic attacks where the time between the two attacks is between 1.4 to 1.6 seconds, then a pop-up appears with a simple arithmetic problem, like '4x13=?', and if you type in the correct answer within 2 seconds,you are awarded +1 basic attack permanently"? This patch contains several major changes that is quickly turning the game into LoL. If this game continues on it's path to be LoL, I will quit. Last hitting is not a pointless gimmick, its a expression of skill, its a way to distinguish a good player from a truly fantastic player and its a method of gaining marginal but important incremental advantages that you can use to gain the upper hand on your opponent. This is also an expression of skill: A talent that grants you +1 basic attack permanently under the following conditions: "If you hit a minion with 2 basic attacks where the time between the two attacks is between 1.4 to 1.6 seconds, then a pop-up appears with a simple arithmetic problem, like '4x13=?', and if you type in the correct answer within 2 seconds,you are awarded +1 basic attack permanently" It takes skill to do this.
This argument is really, really, really dumb. Last hitting isn't pointless in games that have it and if you don't like it, you are entitled to that opinion. No need to make hyperbolic arguments to attempt to justify your opinion on the subject.
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EPT
