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On July 26 2014 02:08 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 02:04 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 26 2014 01:58 ComaDose wrote:On July 26 2014 01:25 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 25 2014 05:35 ComaDose wrote:On July 24 2014 20:01 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 24 2014 00:47 ComaDose wrote:On July 23 2014 23:40 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 23 2014 23:31 ComaDose wrote:On July 23 2014 21:17 paralleluniverse wrote:
[quote]
MOBAs became mainstream with Dota. Neither Dota nor Dota 2 gives you an advantage for winning. So no, it's not a Mario Party mentality, it's a MOBA mentality that the playing field is level and that you don't get an advantage for paying real money or grinding more.
Again, if it's such a great idea, why don't you ask them to add it to SC2. Then when you want to play chess, you can play chess. yeah when you are winning in dota you buy better items. you said they fucked up by having items. HotS is about fixing the snowball, not about starting it up again by repeating the mistakes of other MOBAs through the addition of items but you misunderstood what i ment. also dota doesn't get to define a genre anymore than starcraft does. I understand why people don't want to grind but I can't believe how entitled you all feel. Do you read? As I said, items are not the same as artifacts. Items are within-game. They do not give you an advantage from outside of the game. Everyone starts the game with the same potential to buy items. Artifacts come from grinding and winning previous games, not within the current game, to give you an advantage in the current game. Unlike items, with artifacts, you are already ahead before the game even starts compared to someone who doesn't have it. Why is that so hard to understand? Why do you fail to understand such a simple concept? Should winning 50 SC2 games unlock a +2 damage to your marines in all future SC2 games? I understood what you meant perfectly: you said "when i want to play chess i play sc2". Well, let's add that +2 damage unlock to SC2, because it's such a great idea, and see how you enjoy SC2 as chess now. dog you're real mad and not really listening to what i'm saying. it's like we are having two different conversations. I know what artifacts are which is why i was surprised when you started talking about items, but i responded to what you said about items. On July 24 2014 00:42 -Celestial- wrote:
Do not ever forget that you're a customer. They are NOT doing us a favour by utilising this business model, they're trying to make money off us. yeah i think they picked the model that demonstrated the most profit in the market and people want them to change it so they can play at the highest level as soon as they install. which while would be fun isn't really necessary or lucrative. You said: On July 22 2014 22:40 ComaDose wrote:
"give us more ways to customize our characters"
"okay here"
"fuck you dead game worse than lol" Show me where people were asking for artifacts? If the model where everyday plays on a fair and equal playing field isn't "necessary or lucrative", then why doesn't SC2 switch to that model and add artifacts? Who cares about fair? you must realize what you are asking of me has nothing to do with what i said right? oh i just remembered you were the guy talking about this stuff? dude thats.... you need to realize what you want isn't what everyone else wants. i stand by my original assertion that if you don't want items or last hitting or any advantage for doing better than your opponent so far in the current game then the moba genre is probably not what you are looking for. like how do you feel about levels? lol. the same reason sc2 doesn't change is the same/opposite reason MMO's wont start you at max level with legendary gear. cry cry who cares about fair. On July 24 2014 08:46 -Celestial- wrote:On July 24 2014 00:47 ComaDose wrote:On July 24 2014 00:42 -Celestial- wrote:
Do not ever forget that you're a customer. They are NOT doing us a favour by utilising this business model, they're trying to make money off us. yeah i think they picked the model that demonstrated the most profit in the market and people want them to change it so they can play at the highest level as soon as they install. which while would be fun isn't really necessary or lucrative. Just because a payment model makes money does not make it consumer friendly or what people want or even the most desirable model for the company. Business is more complicated than that. The breaking up of games into little chunks of DLC is horrendously anti-consumer and lots of people want that changed, but it makes a decent amount of money. Despite LoL's "success" there are plenty of people questioning and protesting its horrendously exploitative business model. Mobile games are another good example. Happily it is NOT just all about money, image does matter. Dungeon Keeper mobile probably made a boatload for the pitiful amount it must have cost to develop, but its still a failure as a game because the consumers reacted badly to it, gave it bad press and hence negatively impacted how the market viewed its stock. Look at the recent statements out of EA with respect to that game...they're all effectively press releases directed at their shareholders to calm them down. well i'm sure blizzards divisions that are making these decisions have considered this but maybe you should apply for a position. iuno why you put "success" like that tho. seems pretty unquestionable. You argued that people were asking for customization as a defense to Blizzard adding artifacts. But the fact is no-one asked for artifacts, so your argument that people where asking for customization as a justification for artifacts is utter nonsense. This is like saying people have asked for more skill differentiation in HotS, and then Blizzard adds this: A talent that grants you +1 basic attack permanently under the following conditions: "If you hit a minion with 2 basic attacks where the time between the two attacks is between 1.4 to 1.6 seconds, then a pop-up appears with a simple arithmetic problem, like '4x13=?', and if you type in the correct answer within 2 seconds,you are awarded +1 basic attack permanently" Stop complaining about this arithmetic problem gimmick, we added it because people asked for skill differentiation. Your assertion that if I don't want last hitting or items then MOBAs are not for me is also complete nonsense. Yesterday, there was a MOBA that had no last hitting, no items, no major snowballing, and where everyone starts the match on an equal playing field. That MOBA was called Heroes of the Storm. In fact, starting matches on an equal playing field is quintessential to MOBAs, and originated with the first successful MOBA, which is Dota. Removing such a core feature is exactly like removing the core feature of SC2 that everyone starts matches on an equal playing field. Your argument basically boils down to "I claim that MOBAs don't have a level playing field by definition, and I claim that SC2 does by definition, so get over it". It's not a valid argument, it's semantics and nonsense, vacuous and without substance. And it's not even correct as Dota proves. i wasn't talking about entering the game on a level playing field, nor have i ever said anything in defense of artifacts, not sure if you quoted the right person. Yes, you did: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/games/432609-heroes-of-the-storm-blizzard-all-stars-announced?page=96#1917You can't lie your way out of this. From the context in the thread, and the fact that it can't possibly be about anything else, that was clearly in relation to artifacts. how is that in defense of artifacts?
He is construing your mocking of people that are freaking out about the new systems as support of the systems.
And to talk about the real subject at hand, its seems both systems are pretty flawed right now and have a lot of issues. Hopefully Blizzard will get them ironed out.
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On July 26 2014 02:11 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 02:08 ComaDose wrote:On July 26 2014 02:04 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 26 2014 01:58 ComaDose wrote:On July 26 2014 01:25 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 25 2014 05:35 ComaDose wrote:On July 24 2014 20:01 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 24 2014 00:47 ComaDose wrote:On July 23 2014 23:40 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 23 2014 23:31 ComaDose wrote:
[quote]
yeah when you are winning in dota you buy better items. you said they fucked up by having items.
[quote]
but you misunderstood what i ment. also dota doesn't get to define a genre anymore than starcraft does.
I understand why people don't want to grind but I can't believe how entitled you all feel. Do you read? As I said, items are not the same as artifacts. Items are within-game. They do not give you an advantage from outside of the game. Everyone starts the game with the same potential to buy items. Artifacts come from grinding and winning previous games, not within the current game, to give you an advantage in the current game. Unlike items, with artifacts, you are already ahead before the game even starts compared to someone who doesn't have it. Why is that so hard to understand? Why do you fail to understand such a simple concept? Should winning 50 SC2 games unlock a +2 damage to your marines in all future SC2 games? I understood what you meant perfectly: you said "when i want to play chess i play sc2". Well, let's add that +2 damage unlock to SC2, because it's such a great idea, and see how you enjoy SC2 as chess now. dog you're real mad and not really listening to what i'm saying. it's like we are having two different conversations. I know what artifacts are which is why i was surprised when you started talking about items, but i responded to what you said about items. On July 24 2014 00:42 -Celestial- wrote:
Do not ever forget that you're a customer. They are NOT doing us a favour by utilising this business model, they're trying to make money off us. yeah i think they picked the model that demonstrated the most profit in the market and people want them to change it so they can play at the highest level as soon as they install. which while would be fun isn't really necessary or lucrative. You said: On July 22 2014 22:40 ComaDose wrote:
"give us more ways to customize our characters"
"okay here"
"fuck you dead game worse than lol" Show me where people were asking for artifacts? If the model where everyday plays on a fair and equal playing field isn't "necessary or lucrative", then why doesn't SC2 switch to that model and add artifacts? Who cares about fair? you must realize what you are asking of me has nothing to do with what i said right? oh i just remembered you were the guy talking about this stuff? dude thats.... you need to realize what you want isn't what everyone else wants. i stand by my original assertion that if you don't want items or last hitting or any advantage for doing better than your opponent so far in the current game then the moba genre is probably not what you are looking for. like how do you feel about levels? lol. the same reason sc2 doesn't change is the same/opposite reason MMO's wont start you at max level with legendary gear. cry cry who cares about fair. On July 24 2014 08:46 -Celestial- wrote:On July 24 2014 00:47 ComaDose wrote:On July 24 2014 00:42 -Celestial- wrote:
Do not ever forget that you're a customer. They are NOT doing us a favour by utilising this business model, they're trying to make money off us. yeah i think they picked the model that demonstrated the most profit in the market and people want them to change it so they can play at the highest level as soon as they install. which while would be fun isn't really necessary or lucrative. Just because a payment model makes money does not make it consumer friendly or what people want or even the most desirable model for the company. Business is more complicated than that. The breaking up of games into little chunks of DLC is horrendously anti-consumer and lots of people want that changed, but it makes a decent amount of money. Despite LoL's "success" there are plenty of people questioning and protesting its horrendously exploitative business model. Mobile games are another good example. Happily it is NOT just all about money, image does matter. Dungeon Keeper mobile probably made a boatload for the pitiful amount it must have cost to develop, but its still a failure as a game because the consumers reacted badly to it, gave it bad press and hence negatively impacted how the market viewed its stock. Look at the recent statements out of EA with respect to that game...they're all effectively press releases directed at their shareholders to calm them down. well i'm sure blizzards divisions that are making these decisions have considered this but maybe you should apply for a position. iuno why you put "success" like that tho. seems pretty unquestionable. You argued that people were asking for customization as a defense to Blizzard adding artifacts. But the fact is no-one asked for artifacts, so your argument that people where asking for customization as a justification for artifacts is utter nonsense. This is like saying people have asked for more skill differentiation in HotS, and then Blizzard adds this: A talent that grants you +1 basic attack permanently under the following conditions: "If you hit a minion with 2 basic attacks where the time between the two attacks is between 1.4 to 1.6 seconds, then a pop-up appears with a simple arithmetic problem, like '4x13=?', and if you type in the correct answer within 2 seconds,you are awarded +1 basic attack permanently" Stop complaining about this arithmetic problem gimmick, we added it because people asked for skill differentiation. Your assertion that if I don't want last hitting or items then MOBAs are not for me is also complete nonsense. Yesterday, there was a MOBA that had no last hitting, no items, no major snowballing, and where everyone starts the match on an equal playing field. That MOBA was called Heroes of the Storm. In fact, starting matches on an equal playing field is quintessential to MOBAs, and originated with the first successful MOBA, which is Dota. Removing such a core feature is exactly like removing the core feature of SC2 that everyone starts matches on an equal playing field. Your argument basically boils down to "I claim that MOBAs don't have a level playing field by definition, and I claim that SC2 does by definition, so get over it". It's not a valid argument, it's semantics and nonsense, vacuous and without substance. And it's not even correct as Dota proves. i wasn't talking about entering the game on a level playing field, nor have i ever said anything in defense of artifacts, not sure if you quoted the right person. Yes, you did: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/games/432609-heroes-of-the-storm-blizzard-all-stars-announced?page=96#1917You can't lie your way out of this. From the context in the thread, and the fact that it can't possibly be about anything else, that was clearly in relation to artifacts. how is that in defense of artifacts? He is construing your mocking of people that are freaking out about the new systems as support of the systems. And to talk about the real subject at hand, its seems both systems are pretty flawed right now and have a lot of issues. Hopefully Blizzard will get them ironed out.
oh... i guess that's a reasonable mistake to make
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On July 26 2014 02:08 ComaDose wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 02:04 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 26 2014 01:58 ComaDose wrote:On July 26 2014 01:25 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 25 2014 05:35 ComaDose wrote:On July 24 2014 20:01 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 24 2014 00:47 ComaDose wrote:On July 23 2014 23:40 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 23 2014 23:31 ComaDose wrote:On July 23 2014 21:17 paralleluniverse wrote:
[quote]
MOBAs became mainstream with Dota. Neither Dota nor Dota 2 gives you an advantage for winning. So no, it's not a Mario Party mentality, it's a MOBA mentality that the playing field is level and that you don't get an advantage for paying real money or grinding more.
Again, if it's such a great idea, why don't you ask them to add it to SC2. Then when you want to play chess, you can play chess. yeah when you are winning in dota you buy better items. you said they fucked up by having items. HotS is about fixing the snowball, not about starting it up again by repeating the mistakes of other MOBAs through the addition of items but you misunderstood what i ment. also dota doesn't get to define a genre anymore than starcraft does. I understand why people don't want to grind but I can't believe how entitled you all feel. Do you read? As I said, items are not the same as artifacts. Items are within-game. They do not give you an advantage from outside of the game. Everyone starts the game with the same potential to buy items. Artifacts come from grinding and winning previous games, not within the current game, to give you an advantage in the current game. Unlike items, with artifacts, you are already ahead before the game even starts compared to someone who doesn't have it. Why is that so hard to understand? Why do you fail to understand such a simple concept? Should winning 50 SC2 games unlock a +2 damage to your marines in all future SC2 games? I understood what you meant perfectly: you said "when i want to play chess i play sc2". Well, let's add that +2 damage unlock to SC2, because it's such a great idea, and see how you enjoy SC2 as chess now. dog you're real mad and not really listening to what i'm saying. it's like we are having two different conversations. I know what artifacts are which is why i was surprised when you started talking about items, but i responded to what you said about items. On July 24 2014 00:42 -Celestial- wrote:
Do not ever forget that you're a customer. They are NOT doing us a favour by utilising this business model, they're trying to make money off us. yeah i think they picked the model that demonstrated the most profit in the market and people want them to change it so they can play at the highest level as soon as they install. which while would be fun isn't really necessary or lucrative. You said: On July 22 2014 22:40 ComaDose wrote:
"give us more ways to customize our characters"
"okay here"
"fuck you dead game worse than lol" Show me where people were asking for artifacts? If the model where everyday plays on a fair and equal playing field isn't "necessary or lucrative", then why doesn't SC2 switch to that model and add artifacts? Who cares about fair? you must realize what you are asking of me has nothing to do with what i said right? oh i just remembered you were the guy talking about this stuff? dude thats.... you need to realize what you want isn't what everyone else wants. i stand by my original assertion that if you don't want items or last hitting or any advantage for doing better than your opponent so far in the current game then the moba genre is probably not what you are looking for. like how do you feel about levels? lol. the same reason sc2 doesn't change is the same/opposite reason MMO's wont start you at max level with legendary gear. cry cry who cares about fair. On July 24 2014 08:46 -Celestial- wrote:On July 24 2014 00:47 ComaDose wrote:On July 24 2014 00:42 -Celestial- wrote:
Do not ever forget that you're a customer. They are NOT doing us a favour by utilising this business model, they're trying to make money off us. yeah i think they picked the model that demonstrated the most profit in the market and people want them to change it so they can play at the highest level as soon as they install. which while would be fun isn't really necessary or lucrative. Just because a payment model makes money does not make it consumer friendly or what people want or even the most desirable model for the company. Business is more complicated than that. The breaking up of games into little chunks of DLC is horrendously anti-consumer and lots of people want that changed, but it makes a decent amount of money. Despite LoL's "success" there are plenty of people questioning and protesting its horrendously exploitative business model. Mobile games are another good example. Happily it is NOT just all about money, image does matter. Dungeon Keeper mobile probably made a boatload for the pitiful amount it must have cost to develop, but its still a failure as a game because the consumers reacted badly to it, gave it bad press and hence negatively impacted how the market viewed its stock. Look at the recent statements out of EA with respect to that game...they're all effectively press releases directed at their shareholders to calm them down. well i'm sure blizzards divisions that are making these decisions have considered this but maybe you should apply for a position. iuno why you put "success" like that tho. seems pretty unquestionable. You argued that people were asking for customization as a defense to Blizzard adding artifacts. But the fact is no-one asked for artifacts, so your argument that people where asking for customization as a justification for artifacts is utter nonsense. This is like saying people have asked for more skill differentiation in HotS, and then Blizzard adds this: A talent that grants you +1 basic attack permanently under the following conditions: "If you hit a minion with 2 basic attacks where the time between the two attacks is between 1.4 to 1.6 seconds, then a pop-up appears with a simple arithmetic problem, like '4x13=?', and if you type in the correct answer within 2 seconds,you are awarded +1 basic attack permanently" Stop complaining about this arithmetic problem gimmick, we added it because people asked for skill differentiation. Your assertion that if I don't want last hitting or items then MOBAs are not for me is also complete nonsense. Yesterday, there was a MOBA that had no last hitting, no items, no major snowballing, and where everyone starts the match on an equal playing field. That MOBA was called Heroes of the Storm. In fact, starting matches on an equal playing field is quintessential to MOBAs, and originated with the first successful MOBA, which is Dota. Removing such a core feature is exactly like removing the core feature of SC2 that everyone starts matches on an equal playing field. Your argument basically boils down to "I claim that MOBAs don't have a level playing field by definition, and I claim that SC2 does by definition, so get over it". It's not a valid argument, it's semantics and nonsense, vacuous and without substance. And it's not even correct as Dota proves. i wasn't talking about entering the game on a level playing field, nor have i ever said anything in defense of artifacts, not sure if you quoted the right person. Yes, you did: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/games/432609-heroes-of-the-storm-blizzard-all-stars-announced?page=96#1917You can't lie your way out of this. From the context in the thread, and the fact that it can't possibly be about anything else, that was clearly in relation to artifacts. how is that in defense of artifacts?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/games/432609-heroes-of-the-storm-blizzard-all-stars-announced?page=96#1917
You wrote:
"give us more ways to customize our characters"
"okay here"
Blizzard did this with artifacts.
Then you write:
"fuck you dead game worse than lol"
This refers to the massive backlash that artifacts got.
And this was written in the middle of a discussion in this thread about artifacts.
Moreover, this description that you've written cannot be applied to anything else. There was no other customization system in HotS that has received massive backlash.
So stop trying to deceive readers with your faux denials and bullshit lies.
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I would simply never play a game that is based on individual instances of contention with other human players (such as multiplayer SC2 or DOTA) if I am not sure that we all enter any given game instance on the same footing as the others. I would just feel like an idiot and that's surely not what I expect from a game.
Obviously, I had no problem with the SC2 campaign, slowly gaining more stuff to play the AI that has been designed to play against a player with incomplete tools, but no way in hell I would ever play anything like SC2 against human players who have advantage because they "unlocked" something. Luckily there is still DOTA for this particular genre.
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On July 26 2014 02:14 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 02:08 ComaDose wrote:On July 26 2014 02:04 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 26 2014 01:58 ComaDose wrote:On July 26 2014 01:25 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 25 2014 05:35 ComaDose wrote:On July 24 2014 20:01 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 24 2014 00:47 ComaDose wrote:On July 23 2014 23:40 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 23 2014 23:31 ComaDose wrote:
[quote]
yeah when you are winning in dota you buy better items. you said they fucked up by having items.
[quote]
but you misunderstood what i ment. also dota doesn't get to define a genre anymore than starcraft does.
I understand why people don't want to grind but I can't believe how entitled you all feel. Do you read? As I said, items are not the same as artifacts. Items are within-game. They do not give you an advantage from outside of the game. Everyone starts the game with the same potential to buy items. Artifacts come from grinding and winning previous games, not within the current game, to give you an advantage in the current game. Unlike items, with artifacts, you are already ahead before the game even starts compared to someone who doesn't have it. Why is that so hard to understand? Why do you fail to understand such a simple concept? Should winning 50 SC2 games unlock a +2 damage to your marines in all future SC2 games? I understood what you meant perfectly: you said "when i want to play chess i play sc2". Well, let's add that +2 damage unlock to SC2, because it's such a great idea, and see how you enjoy SC2 as chess now. dog you're real mad and not really listening to what i'm saying. it's like we are having two different conversations. I know what artifacts are which is why i was surprised when you started talking about items, but i responded to what you said about items. On July 24 2014 00:42 -Celestial- wrote:
Do not ever forget that you're a customer. They are NOT doing us a favour by utilising this business model, they're trying to make money off us. yeah i think they picked the model that demonstrated the most profit in the market and people want them to change it so they can play at the highest level as soon as they install. which while would be fun isn't really necessary or lucrative. You said: On July 22 2014 22:40 ComaDose wrote:
"give us more ways to customize our characters"
"okay here"
"fuck you dead game worse than lol" Show me where people were asking for artifacts? If the model where everyday plays on a fair and equal playing field isn't "necessary or lucrative", then why doesn't SC2 switch to that model and add artifacts? Who cares about fair? you must realize what you are asking of me has nothing to do with what i said right? oh i just remembered you were the guy talking about this stuff? dude thats.... you need to realize what you want isn't what everyone else wants. i stand by my original assertion that if you don't want items or last hitting or any advantage for doing better than your opponent so far in the current game then the moba genre is probably not what you are looking for. like how do you feel about levels? lol. the same reason sc2 doesn't change is the same/opposite reason MMO's wont start you at max level with legendary gear. cry cry who cares about fair. On July 24 2014 08:46 -Celestial- wrote:On July 24 2014 00:47 ComaDose wrote:On July 24 2014 00:42 -Celestial- wrote:
Do not ever forget that you're a customer. They are NOT doing us a favour by utilising this business model, they're trying to make money off us. yeah i think they picked the model that demonstrated the most profit in the market and people want them to change it so they can play at the highest level as soon as they install. which while would be fun isn't really necessary or lucrative. Just because a payment model makes money does not make it consumer friendly or what people want or even the most desirable model for the company. Business is more complicated than that. The breaking up of games into little chunks of DLC is horrendously anti-consumer and lots of people want that changed, but it makes a decent amount of money. Despite LoL's "success" there are plenty of people questioning and protesting its horrendously exploitative business model. Mobile games are another good example. Happily it is NOT just all about money, image does matter. Dungeon Keeper mobile probably made a boatload for the pitiful amount it must have cost to develop, but its still a failure as a game because the consumers reacted badly to it, gave it bad press and hence negatively impacted how the market viewed its stock. Look at the recent statements out of EA with respect to that game...they're all effectively press releases directed at their shareholders to calm them down. well i'm sure blizzards divisions that are making these decisions have considered this but maybe you should apply for a position. iuno why you put "success" like that tho. seems pretty unquestionable. You argued that people were asking for customization as a defense to Blizzard adding artifacts. But the fact is no-one asked for artifacts, so your argument that people where asking for customization as a justification for artifacts is utter nonsense. This is like saying people have asked for more skill differentiation in HotS, and then Blizzard adds this: A talent that grants you +1 basic attack permanently under the following conditions: "If you hit a minion with 2 basic attacks where the time between the two attacks is between 1.4 to 1.6 seconds, then a pop-up appears with a simple arithmetic problem, like '4x13=?', and if you type in the correct answer within 2 seconds,you are awarded +1 basic attack permanently" Stop complaining about this arithmetic problem gimmick, we added it because people asked for skill differentiation. Your assertion that if I don't want last hitting or items then MOBAs are not for me is also complete nonsense. Yesterday, there was a MOBA that had no last hitting, no items, no major snowballing, and where everyone starts the match on an equal playing field. That MOBA was called Heroes of the Storm. In fact, starting matches on an equal playing field is quintessential to MOBAs, and originated with the first successful MOBA, which is Dota. Removing such a core feature is exactly like removing the core feature of SC2 that everyone starts matches on an equal playing field. Your argument basically boils down to "I claim that MOBAs don't have a level playing field by definition, and I claim that SC2 does by definition, so get over it". It's not a valid argument, it's semantics and nonsense, vacuous and without substance. And it's not even correct as Dota proves. i wasn't talking about entering the game on a level playing field, nor have i ever said anything in defense of artifacts, not sure if you quoted the right person. Yes, you did: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/games/432609-heroes-of-the-storm-blizzard-all-stars-announced?page=96#1917You can't lie your way out of this. From the context in the thread, and the fact that it can't possibly be about anything else, that was clearly in relation to artifacts. how is that in defense of artifacts? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/games/432609-heroes-of-the-storm-blizzard-all-stars-announced?page=96#1917You wrote: Blizzard did this with artifacts. Then you write: This refers to the massive backlash that artifacts got. And this was written in the middle of a discussion in this thread about artifacts. Moreover, this description that you've written cannot be applied to anything else. There was no other customization system in HotS that has received massive backlash. So stop trying to deceive readers with your faux denials and bullshit lies.
Calm down now. There is no need to get upset over arguments on a forum online. There is nothing at stake here and there is no reason to get angry or "call people out on their lies".
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I don't know how to explain to you that none of those words say anything positive about artifacts
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On July 26 2014 02:18 ComaDose wrote:
I don't know how to explain to you that none of those words say anything positive about artifacts
It is a lost cause. Just don't even reply to him
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Germany25657 Posts
I hate artifacts  Eventhough I have all of them -.-
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The real question is: What kind of system could they put in place that we would enjoy?
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On July 26 2014 02:31 Plansix wrote:
The real question is: What kind of system could they put in place that we would enjoy?
Artifacts with no in-game non-cosmetic effect. OR Sidegrade artifacts where the set most popular for your char at the top level is the default set, and you can customize away from that to your heart's content.
Or just ignore the people saying the game doesn't have depth because it doesn't have items or individual leveling, and recognize that this game has depth in a ton of other, less silly and artificial ways. Some of us really liked the original design concept and are saddened by the backtrack.
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Honestly they should just remove the talent system and put back in-game items and remove the artifact system (aka runes) their attempt to be "innovative" is doing more harm then good.
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What a greedy game where I am locked out of talents and abilities because I didn't level a specific hero. You're suppose to create choice in a game, not restrictions
It's not a difficult concept, in fact, it is the basis of many multiplayer games where developers create choice and drive to play the game by offering a variety of tools and uniqueness in its characters and concepts to get players to pursue and explore in your game.
You create a reason to invest before offering choices of where to invest. By creating initial disadvantages, you alienate newcomers, hinder the "word-by-mouth" system of getting friends of friends to play and ultimately cripple your return in the long-run.
This game is fun when I have equal access to everyone else on one level or another. Limiting people to avoid intimidation of the amount of things they need to learn can be done well. Dividing up unlocks into every little minuscule thing is inappropriate and insults those who are ready to invest, knowledge-wise, into your game.
Battlefield 4 did this, they made unlocks for each gun separate and it caused players to stick to two or three guns; lowering diversity and ultimately creating balance around those guns specifically.
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Good game, Liquid friends! 
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/dwm28GV.jpg)
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On July 26 2014 03:46 ref4 wrote:
Honestly they should just remove the talent system and put back in-game items and remove the artifact system (aka runes) their attempt to be "innovative" is doing more harm then good.
And then call it "Dota clone number 136". It will be awesome...
What they actually need to do is - Sell the game for 15-20 euro (I don't think that MOBA costs more than that) with everything unlocked. Stop this free to play nonsense.
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United States2095 Posts
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On July 26 2014 04:59 Pr0wler wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 03:46 ref4 wrote:
Honestly they should just remove the talent system and put back in-game items and remove the artifact system (aka runes) their attempt to be "innovative" is doing more harm then good. And then call it "Dota clone number 136". It will be awesome... What they actually need to do is - Sell the game for 15-20 euro (I don't think that MOBA costs more than that) with everything unlocked. Stop this free to play nonsense.
well if you want to put it this way Dota/Dota2 might as well be called "WC3:TFF Mod"
But over the life time of a good, true F2P MOBA game the average player is going to spend more than $20.....hell on top of the compendium purchase I bought like several keys/troves and will plan on to buy more if I see cosmetics I really like.
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On July 26 2014 05:55 ref4 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 04:59 Pr0wler wrote:On July 26 2014 03:46 ref4 wrote:
Honestly they should just remove the talent system and put back in-game items and remove the artifact system (aka runes) their attempt to be "innovative" is doing more harm then good. And then call it "Dota clone number 136". It will be awesome... What they actually need to do is - Sell the game for 15-20 euro (I don't think that MOBA costs more than that) with everything unlocked. Stop this free to play nonsense. well if you want to put it this way Dota/Dota2 might as well be called "WC3:TFF Mod" But over the life time of a good, true F2P MOBA game the average player is going to spend more than $20.....hell on top of the compendium purchase I bought like several keys/troves and will plan on to buy more if I see cosmetics I really like.
Well... It's actually called like that. Dota is exactly "WC3 mod".
The idea is that HotS has to be different in some way and the way Blizzard made it different was good... At the beginning. If they are not different and don't bring anything new, HotS will be like Infinite crisis or Dawngate... Dead before it even goes live.
There is no "True F2P moba". If you stop buying things from Valve they will just shut the game down and you won't be able to play it for free... So it's not actually free to play. If someone decides to play it completely for free, the people like you that pay for compendiums, hats etc. are paying instead of him. What F2P model relies on is the idea - "We give you the game for free, but you have to "support" us with micro-transactions." This creates very vague contract between the player and the game developer. Of course this is heaven for the developers, because they can abuse the shit out of F2P and the "good will" of their customers... But I don't think that this story can end well.
P2P is clear - they give you the game, you give them the money, have fun.
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Yeah theres no way they sell Heroes as buy-to-play.
These games thrive off casual players trying the game and hanging around (Especially heroes which is aimed at being peoples very first game in the genre) , why would i try heroes first if i have to pay for it? i'd go "try" any other game thats free and if i liked it i'd just play that one, if i didn't i definitely wouldnt fork out cash to try another similar game. HoN used to be Buy-to-play and it got crushed by league because barely any new players wanted to fork out $20 when the alternative was free.
P2P is clear - they give you the game, you give them the money, have fun.
Except we dont know how long they'll support the servers for, or how often we'll get updates (which will likely be less and less over time as sales decrease), and unless you buy mutliple accounts you have no real way of financially supporting the game you love.
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On July 26 2014 03:53 Torte de Lini wrote:
What a greedy game where I am locked out of talents and abilities because I didn't level a specific hero. You're suppose to create choice in a game, not restrictions
It's not a difficult concept, in fact, it is the basis of many multiplayer games where developers create choice and drive to play the game by offering a variety of tools and uniqueness in its characters and concepts to get players to pursue and explore in your game.
You create a reason to invest before offering choices of where to invest. By creating initial disadvantages, you alienate newcomers, hinder the "word-by-mouth" system of getting friends of friends to play and ultimately cripple your return in the long-run.
This game is fun when I have equal access to everyone else on one level or another. Limiting people to avoid intimidation of the amount of things they need to learn can be done well. Dividing up unlocks into every little minuscule thing is inappropriate and insults those who are ready to invest, knowledge-wise, into your game.
Battlefield 4 did this, they made unlocks for each gun separate and it caused players to stick to two or three guns; lowering diversity and ultimately creating balance around those guns specifically.
Omg, you made me realize why I hate BF4 unlocking system.
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oh wow that artifact system looks evil. Started a f2p with pay2win elements like this. I mean you start as a noob, but get crushed even harder by the people that play the game longer because of those unlocks. It is satisfying to win against those people and know that they know they just got poked by a noob. But after unlocking a few things myself I plowed through noobs like nothing. Which is not really satisfactory for me, because I know they were at a disadvantage from the start.
So for me systems like this are used to drive people away that don't want to invest money into a game, while attracting pay 2 win p ... eople , that will love to throw money at the game. It reduces the player-base, but actually helps the income greatly. And since there are enough p2w people, it actually doesn't kill a game because there are enough that still play it.
I think Blizzard will do a good job balancing it, but they will make sure that people that don't pay for the game won't play to much, as long as there are enough paying customers.
But whenever I play a f2p game I get reminded real fast why I prefer subscription based and buy to play.
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EPT
