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4713 Posts
On July 26 2014 02:14 paralleluniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 02:08 ComaDose wrote:On July 26 2014 02:04 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 26 2014 01:58 ComaDose wrote:On July 26 2014 01:25 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 25 2014 05:35 ComaDose wrote:On July 24 2014 20:01 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 24 2014 00:47 ComaDose wrote:On July 23 2014 23:40 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 23 2014 23:31 ComaDose wrote:
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yeah when you are winning in dota you buy better items. you said they fucked up by having items.
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but you misunderstood what i ment. also dota doesn't get to define a genre anymore than starcraft does.
I understand why people don't want to grind but I can't believe how entitled you all feel. Do you read? As I said, items are not the same as artifacts. Items are within-game. They do not give you an advantage from outside of the game. Everyone starts the game with the same potential to buy items. Artifacts come from grinding and winning previous games, not within the current game, to give you an advantage in the current game. Unlike items, with artifacts, you are already ahead before the game even starts compared to someone who doesn't have it. Why is that so hard to understand? Why do you fail to understand such a simple concept? Should winning 50 SC2 games unlock a +2 damage to your marines in all future SC2 games? I understood what you meant perfectly: you said "when i want to play chess i play sc2". Well, let's add that +2 damage unlock to SC2, because it's such a great idea, and see how you enjoy SC2 as chess now. dog you're real mad and not really listening to what i'm saying. it's like we are having two different conversations. I know what artifacts are which is why i was surprised when you started talking about items, but i responded to what you said about items. On July 24 2014 00:42 -Celestial- wrote:
Do not ever forget that you're a customer. They are NOT doing us a favour by utilising this business model, they're trying to make money off us. yeah i think they picked the model that demonstrated the most profit in the market and people want them to change it so they can play at the highest level as soon as they install. which while would be fun isn't really necessary or lucrative. You said: On July 22 2014 22:40 ComaDose wrote:
"give us more ways to customize our characters"
"okay here"
"fuck you dead game worse than lol" Show me where people were asking for artifacts? If the model where everyday plays on a fair and equal playing field isn't "necessary or lucrative", then why doesn't SC2 switch to that model and add artifacts? Who cares about fair? you must realize what you are asking of me has nothing to do with what i said right? oh i just remembered you were the guy talking about this stuff? dude thats.... you need to realize what you want isn't what everyone else wants. i stand by my original assertion that if you don't want items or last hitting or any advantage for doing better than your opponent so far in the current game then the moba genre is probably not what you are looking for. like how do you feel about levels? lol. the same reason sc2 doesn't change is the same/opposite reason MMO's wont start you at max level with legendary gear. cry cry who cares about fair. On July 24 2014 08:46 -Celestial- wrote:On July 24 2014 00:47 ComaDose wrote:On July 24 2014 00:42 -Celestial- wrote:
Do not ever forget that you're a customer. They are NOT doing us a favour by utilising this business model, they're trying to make money off us. yeah i think they picked the model that demonstrated the most profit in the market and people want them to change it so they can play at the highest level as soon as they install. which while would be fun isn't really necessary or lucrative. Just because a payment model makes money does not make it consumer friendly or what people want or even the most desirable model for the company. Business is more complicated than that. The breaking up of games into little chunks of DLC is horrendously anti-consumer and lots of people want that changed, but it makes a decent amount of money. Despite LoL's "success" there are plenty of people questioning and protesting its horrendously exploitative business model. Mobile games are another good example. Happily it is NOT just all about money, image does matter. Dungeon Keeper mobile probably made a boatload for the pitiful amount it must have cost to develop, but its still a failure as a game because the consumers reacted badly to it, gave it bad press and hence negatively impacted how the market viewed its stock. Look at the recent statements out of EA with respect to that game...they're all effectively press releases directed at their shareholders to calm them down. well i'm sure blizzards divisions that are making these decisions have considered this but maybe you should apply for a position. iuno why you put "success" like that tho. seems pretty unquestionable. You argued that people were asking for customization as a defense to Blizzard adding artifacts. But the fact is no-one asked for artifacts, so your argument that people where asking for customization as a justification for artifacts is utter nonsense. This is like saying people have asked for more skill differentiation in HotS, and then Blizzard adds this: A talent that grants you +1 basic attack permanently under the following conditions: "If you hit a minion with 2 basic attacks where the time between the two attacks is between 1.4 to 1.6 seconds, then a pop-up appears with a simple arithmetic problem, like '4x13=?', and if you type in the correct answer within 2 seconds,you are awarded +1 basic attack permanently" Stop complaining about this arithmetic problem gimmick, we added it because people asked for skill differentiation. Your assertion that if I don't want last hitting or items then MOBAs are not for me is also complete nonsense. Yesterday, there was a MOBA that had no last hitting, no items, no major snowballing, and where everyone starts the match on an equal playing field. That MOBA was called Heroes of the Storm. In fact, starting matches on an equal playing field is quintessential to MOBAs, and originated with the first successful MOBA, which is Dota. Removing such a core feature is exactly like removing the core feature of SC2 that everyone starts matches on an equal playing field. Your argument basically boils down to "I claim that MOBAs don't have a level playing field by definition, and I claim that SC2 does by definition, so get over it". It's not a valid argument, it's semantics and nonsense, vacuous and without substance. And it's not even correct as Dota proves. i wasn't talking about entering the game on a level playing field, nor have i ever said anything in defense of artifacts, not sure if you quoted the right person. Yes, you did: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/games/432609-heroes-of-the-storm-blizzard-all-stars-announced?page=96#1917You can't lie your way out of this. From the context in the thread, and the fact that it can't possibly be about anything else, that was clearly in relation to artifacts. how is that in defense of artifacts? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/games/432609-heroes-of-the-storm-blizzard-all-stars-announced?page=96#1917You wrote: Blizzard did this with artifacts. Then you write: This refers to the massive backlash that artifacts got. And this was written in the middle of a discussion in this thread about artifacts. Moreover, this description that you've written cannot be applied to anything else. There was no other customization system in HotS that has received massive backlash. So stop trying to deceive readers with your faux denials and bullshit lies.
Firstly, in the context of HoTS, I agree with the anti-last hit sentiment given that it contradicts HoTS general direction.
With that said however, your blind and comical crusade against the last hitting mechanic in general is not only misguided but tragic.
You bash on the mechanic that brings and requires so much skill to the genre without actually providing any substantial arguments, only blind hate and "opinionated facts".
Firstly last hitting does require skill and no not in the same way solving a math problem does, it often requires timing, precision and a bit of awareness. Timing to coordinate and fire your shot/swing your weapon in between other creep attacks so as you can get credit, precision in that you need move around optimally, be positioned appropriately, in range and also click the correct creep, and lastly awareness to know exactly how much you can commit to last hitting without subjecting yourself to the danger of a gank.
So far I see no math related or boring gimmicky skill set required in that, I can identify elements of fighting games (timing) as well as elements of FPS games (precision) associated with last hitting, thus I consider it a viable mechanic. The math behind how much damage you precisely need, your attack speed etc are irrelevant, what is relevant is the feel of the game and optimizing your play to it, the same way you optimize your play to the feel of a gun in CS:GO or the particularities of a char in Mortal Kombat.
Not only have I established that last hitting requires skill and shares many elements with a subset of skills required in other games, I can also argue that it is tactical and strategic as well. Last hitting is part of a much larger, tactical skill that is lane management. If your goal is to farm more then you generally want to keep the creeps on your side of the map where you can be safe, if your goal is to push you can be more aggressive with attacking. Last hitting creates a sort of tension as well when you are trying to gain manage the lane and farm efficiently while staying safe from the harass of the enemy, this tension and balance between the need to be safe and the need to gather resources is what makes some mobas interesting.
Last hitting is made all the more interesting when combined with denying, because now you have constant back and forth interaction between the adversaries on multiple fronts, trying to swing and sway the flow of a lane while doing everything in their power to mess up the opponent, be it via denies or harass. And yes, this back and forth play does create its very own flow and yes it is a skill and no it isn't a math problem, it is a legitimate skill requiring a combination of again, precision, timing, positioning and awareness to pull off successfully. Its also important in the sense that last hitting yields small incremental advantages that can be used to eventually overpower the opponent, it can be a measurement and expression of skill, a way for players to differentiate each others and an important way for better players to gain a lead.
Again, I can understand the frustration with it in HoTS, given how the games direction just moved away from laning phase and individual play and more into objective and team fight based play, and I can respect that opinion. But baselessly and brainlessly bashing last hitting as a whole while disregarding all the good it does to their respective games is just idiotic.
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On July 26 2014 09:15 Destructicon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2014 02:14 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 26 2014 02:08 ComaDose wrote:On July 26 2014 02:04 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 26 2014 01:58 ComaDose wrote:On July 26 2014 01:25 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 25 2014 05:35 ComaDose wrote:On July 24 2014 20:01 paralleluniverse wrote:On July 24 2014 00:47 ComaDose wrote:On July 23 2014 23:40 paralleluniverse wrote:
[quote]
Do you read? As I said, items are not the same as artifacts. Items are within-game. They do not give you an advantage from outside of the game. Everyone starts the game with the same potential to buy items. Artifacts come from grinding and winning previous games, not within the current game, to give you an advantage in the current game. Unlike items, with artifacts, you are already ahead before the game even starts compared to someone who doesn't have it. Why is that so hard to understand? Why do you fail to understand such a simple concept?
Should winning 50 SC2 games unlock a +2 damage to your marines in all future SC2 games?
I understood what you meant perfectly: you said "when i want to play chess i play sc2". Well, let's add that +2 damage unlock to SC2, because it's such a great idea, and see how you enjoy SC2 as chess now. dog you're real mad and not really listening to what i'm saying. it's like we are having two different conversations. I know what artifacts are which is why i was surprised when you started talking about items, but i responded to what you said about items. On July 24 2014 00:42 -Celestial- wrote:
Do not ever forget that you're a customer. They are NOT doing us a favour by utilising this business model, they're trying to make money off us. yeah i think they picked the model that demonstrated the most profit in the market and people want them to change it so they can play at the highest level as soon as they install. which while would be fun isn't really necessary or lucrative. You said: On July 22 2014 22:40 ComaDose wrote:
"give us more ways to customize our characters"
"okay here"
"fuck you dead game worse than lol" Show me where people were asking for artifacts? If the model where everyday plays on a fair and equal playing field isn't "necessary or lucrative", then why doesn't SC2 switch to that model and add artifacts? Who cares about fair? you must realize what you are asking of me has nothing to do with what i said right? oh i just remembered you were the guy talking about this stuff? dude thats.... you need to realize what you want isn't what everyone else wants. i stand by my original assertion that if you don't want items or last hitting or any advantage for doing better than your opponent so far in the current game then the moba genre is probably not what you are looking for. like how do you feel about levels? lol. the same reason sc2 doesn't change is the same/opposite reason MMO's wont start you at max level with legendary gear. cry cry who cares about fair. On July 24 2014 08:46 -Celestial- wrote:On July 24 2014 00:47 ComaDose wrote:On July 24 2014 00:42 -Celestial- wrote:
Do not ever forget that you're a customer. They are NOT doing us a favour by utilising this business model, they're trying to make money off us. yeah i think they picked the model that demonstrated the most profit in the market and people want them to change it so they can play at the highest level as soon as they install. which while would be fun isn't really necessary or lucrative. Just because a payment model makes money does not make it consumer friendly or what people want or even the most desirable model for the company. Business is more complicated than that. The breaking up of games into little chunks of DLC is horrendously anti-consumer and lots of people want that changed, but it makes a decent amount of money. Despite LoL's "success" there are plenty of people questioning and protesting its horrendously exploitative business model. Mobile games are another good example. Happily it is NOT just all about money, image does matter. Dungeon Keeper mobile probably made a boatload for the pitiful amount it must have cost to develop, but its still a failure as a game because the consumers reacted badly to it, gave it bad press and hence negatively impacted how the market viewed its stock. Look at the recent statements out of EA with respect to that game...they're all effectively press releases directed at their shareholders to calm them down. well i'm sure blizzards divisions that are making these decisions have considered this but maybe you should apply for a position. iuno why you put "success" like that tho. seems pretty unquestionable. You argued that people were asking for customization as a defense to Blizzard adding artifacts. But the fact is no-one asked for artifacts, so your argument that people where asking for customization as a justification for artifacts is utter nonsense. This is like saying people have asked for more skill differentiation in HotS, and then Blizzard adds this: A talent that grants you +1 basic attack permanently under the following conditions: "If you hit a minion with 2 basic attacks where the time between the two attacks is between 1.4 to 1.6 seconds, then a pop-up appears with a simple arithmetic problem, like '4x13=?', and if you type in the correct answer within 2 seconds,you are awarded +1 basic attack permanently" Stop complaining about this arithmetic problem gimmick, we added it because people asked for skill differentiation. Your assertion that if I don't want last hitting or items then MOBAs are not for me is also complete nonsense. Yesterday, there was a MOBA that had no last hitting, no items, no major snowballing, and where everyone starts the match on an equal playing field. That MOBA was called Heroes of the Storm. In fact, starting matches on an equal playing field is quintessential to MOBAs, and originated with the first successful MOBA, which is Dota. Removing such a core feature is exactly like removing the core feature of SC2 that everyone starts matches on an equal playing field. Your argument basically boils down to "I claim that MOBAs don't have a level playing field by definition, and I claim that SC2 does by definition, so get over it". It's not a valid argument, it's semantics and nonsense, vacuous and without substance. And it's not even correct as Dota proves. i wasn't talking about entering the game on a level playing field, nor have i ever said anything in defense of artifacts, not sure if you quoted the right person. Yes, you did: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/games/432609-heroes-of-the-storm-blizzard-all-stars-announced?page=96#1917You can't lie your way out of this. From the context in the thread, and the fact that it can't possibly be about anything else, that was clearly in relation to artifacts. how is that in defense of artifacts? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/games/432609-heroes-of-the-storm-blizzard-all-stars-announced?page=96#1917You wrote: "give us more ways to customize our characters"
"okay here" Blizzard did this with artifacts. Then you write: "fuck you dead game worse than lol" This refers to the massive backlash that artifacts got. And this was written in the middle of a discussion in this thread about artifacts. Moreover, this description that you've written cannot be applied to anything else. There was no other customization system in HotS that has received massive backlash. So stop trying to deceive readers with your faux denials and bullshit lies. Firstly, in the context of HoTS, I agree with the anti-last hit sentiment given that it contradicts HoTS general direction. With that said however, your blind and comical crusade against the last hitting mechanic in general is not only misguided but tragic. You bash on the mechanic that brings and requires so much skill to the genre without actually providing any substantial arguments, only blind hate and "opinionated facts". Firstly last hitting does require skill and no not in the same way solving a math problem does, it often requires timing, precision and a bit of awareness. Timing to coordinate and fire your shot/swing your weapon in between other creep attacks so as you can get credit, precision in that you need move around optimally, be positioned appropriately, in range and also click the correct creep, and lastly awareness to know exactly how much you can commit to last hitting without subjecting yourself to the danger of a gank. So far I see no math related or boring gimmicky skill set required in that, I can identify elements of fighting games (timing) as well as elements of FPS games (precision) associated with last hitting, thus I consider it a viable mechanic. The math behind how much damage you precisely need, your attack speed etc are irrelevant, what is relevant is the feel of the game and optimizing your play to it, the same way you optimize your play to the feel of a gun in CS:GO or the particularities of a char in Mortal Kombat. Not only have I established that last hitting requires skill and shares many elements with a subset of skills required in other games, I can also argue that it is tactical and strategic as well. Last hitting is part of a much larger, tactical skill that is lane management. If your goal is to farm more then you generally want to keep the creeps on your side of the map where you can be safe, if your goal is to push you can be more aggressive with attacking. Last hitting creates a sort of tension as well when you are trying to gain manage the lane and farm efficiently while staying safe from the harass of the enemy, this tension and balance between the need to be safe and the need to gather resources is what makes some mobas interesting. Last hitting is made all the more interesting when combined with denying, because now you have constant back and forth interaction between the adversaries on multiple fronts, trying to swing and sway the flow of a lane while doing everything in their power to mess up the opponent, be it via denies or harass. And yes, this back and forth play does create its very own flow and yes it is a skill and no it isn't a math problem, it is a legitimate skill requiring a combination of again, precision, timing, positioning and awareness to pull off successfully. Its also important in the sense that last hitting yields small incremental advantages that can be used to eventually overpower the opponent, it can be a measurement and expression of skill, a way for players to differentiate each others and an important way for better players to gain a lead. Again, I can understand the frustration with it in HoTS, given how the games direction just moved away from laning phase and individual play and more into objective and team fight based play, and I can respect that opinion. But baselessly and brainlessly bashing last hitting as a whole while disregarding all the good it does to their respective games is just idiotic.
This is not a math problem:
A talent that grants you +1 basic attack permanently under the following conditions: "If you hit a minion with 2 basic attacks where the time between the two attacks is between 1.4 to 1.6 seconds, then a pop-up appears with a simple arithmetic problem, like '4x13=?', and if you type in the correct answer within 2 seconds,you are awarded +1 basic attack permanently".
It requires skill, timing, precision, tactics, strategy, awareness, etc.
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Caldeum1977 Posts
But you can't see how much health the minion is at anyway, so it's just a feeling, no math can be involved at all.
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yaw dis universe is parallel
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Northern Ireland25090 Posts
Parallel I don't really understand your issues, you seem to dislike every established tenet of MOBAs and make assertions about design that don't correlate at all with the aspects of said games that their players value as integral to the experience.
Anyway hope this game isn't gimped for people who don't pay/have time to grind when it releases. I'd probably play DOTA now if it wasn't for the sheer learning curve of heros and item pathways, so a game you could jump into more casually+getting to play as famous Blizzard characters is starting to appeal.
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what's so hard to get about what he's saying? last hitting and denying is a totally arbitrary and counter intuitive mechanic that serves to forcibly increase the mechanical skill of the game because it's too shallow otherwise. You could also force people to solve math proofs to get items, which would increase the skill of the game, but feels like an arbitrary challenge.
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because what he's saying could be applied to most mechanics in games? theyve already both agreed that last hitting doesnt have a place in heroes - the argument is over parallel's strong hatred toward a mechanic that does whats intended in other games. and claiming that the games would lack depth without it is a pretty ignorant statement - last hitting is far from the only "difficult" thing in those games.
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On July 27 2014 02:12 Bashnek wrote:
because what he's saying could be applied to most mechanics in games? theyve already both agreed that last hitting doesnt have a place in heroes - the argument is over parallel's strong hatred toward a mechanic that does whats intended in other games. and claiming that the games would lack depth without it is a pretty ignorant statement - last hitting is far from the only "difficult" thing in those games.
Not really. Games' mechanics are, of course, largely arbitrary, but they are rarely as counter-intuitive as last hitting or denying. If mobas have enough depth, they should be able to get rid of those kinds of mechanics without significantly harming the overall competitiveness. Hots will be an interesting demonstration of that concept - can the game still be competitive enough or will it be like divekick for fighting games - a game which demonstrates that without all the complexity and arbitrary mechanics, the genre doesn't have a lot more to it.
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Caldeum1977 Posts
Last hitting is hardly counter-intuitive, as it is prevalent in tons of games. I'm not talking just mobas, but like in rts games the last hit gets credit, in fps games the last hit gets the kill, etc.
And for the record I disagree with the talents that involve hitting a minion when it is close to death (saying last hit in this case is not exactly true), but I like the system in dota and LoL.
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On July 27 2014 02:46 Valiver wrote:
Last hitting is hardly counter-intuitive, as it is prevalent in tons of games. I'm not talking just mobas, but like in rts games the last hit gets credit, in fps games the last hit gets the kill, etc.
That's a strawman. Last hitting has no actual gameplay affect in those other genres. In fact, numerous fps games now try to distribute points in a way that people can't kill steal by last hitting others
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Whats counter-intuitive about last hitting? Its makes pretty solid sense to me.
Kill monsters get gold...
It's just a really really good mechanic for income regulation.
1. It forces opposing heroes into close contact and conflict for extended periods of time.
2. It adds mechanical and multitasking skill against another human opponent.
3. It forces heroes to prioritize team map movement/objectives or income.
4. It allows advanced manipulation to control wave position and vulnerability.
5. It permits variance in hero design. Alternate income strategies. Kill/Farm focus. Teamfight/laning strength.
6. It provides dynamic vision of the map that rewards success and can be manipulated using skill.
These elements add a lot to the game. If you can figure out an alternate way to implement these systems then great.
I would compare it to the design of the mineral line in SC. It's just a thing you send workers to to get money. You could remove it and just have a button to click to increase income that cost 50g per press, but it adds huge depth to the game the way it is implemented.
1. It is harassable by design and impacted by harass in a graduated manner (each worker killed impacts income).
2. Its usually placed at the edge of the base to make defense more difficult.
3. Saturation mechanics force dynamic choices between defensibility and growth and encourages expansion and interaction.
4. Allows more variance in unit design, harass units/battle units.
5. Requires vulnerable worker transfers for maximum efficiency.
6. Allows economic status information to be scoutable by opposing players at a glance.
etc etc etc...
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you're trying way too hard to defend a mechanic that you clearly are invested in. In addition, many of your points are related to creeps themselves, not the mechanic of last hitting.
It's counter-intuitive because the game design leads people to think that you should attack enemies, not wait for them to get low health and tag them at the appropriate time.
It's hard arguing with moba fans because the game is built upon foundations of weird mechanics that have been grandfather'd in to the point they don't even how ridiculous the design is to people that don't have an intimate understanding of the systems already.
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And instead of trying to understand the other side of the coin you're covering your ears and shouting "la la strawman"
no-one is arguing that last hitting should be in heroes, theyre trying to help you understand what that mechanic adds to other games because you sounded uninformed or unwilling to consider.
For the record i dont think its particularly intuitive, but that doesnt make it bad - its the job of the tutorial to teach these things. like supply blocks in sc2.
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On July 27 2014 03:15 PRJ wrote:
It's counter-intuitive because the game design leads people to think that you should attack enemies, not wait for them to get low health and tag them at the appropriate time.
That's not related to last hitting as a mechanic but to the map sturcture and overall game flow of DotA and its clones. You could have a game with last hitting where you want to hit creeps as often as possible.
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On July 27 2014 03:27 Bashnek wrote:
And instead of trying to understand the other side of the coin you're covering your ears and shouting "la la strawman"
no-one is arguing that last hitting should be in heroes, theyre trying to help you understand what that mechanic adds to other games because you sounded uninformed or unwilling to consider.
I understand, I just think it's bad design, and so do plenty of other people. Believe it or not, a lot of people don't think dota is a terribly well designed game. The arguments against mine have been consistently weak. It's fine if it's counter intuitive and you're OK with that, but don't pretend it's not and spit out ridiculous arguments to justify it.
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On July 27 2014 03:33 AM wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2014 03:15 PRJ wrote:
It's counter-intuitive because the game design leads people to think that you should attack enemies, not wait for them to get low health and tag them at the appropriate time.
That's not related to last hitting as a mechanic but to the map sturcture and overall game flow of DotA and its clones. You could have a game with last hitting where you want to hit creeps as often as possible.
yeah you probably could, but I think the whole system is bound to be weird if you also include denying.
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Caldeum1977 Posts
Okay here is how I see last hitting. In dota and LoL, it is a mechanic that increases the opportunity for attacking enemies. Without that mechanic you could just sit way back and get the xp but stay away from the enemy and the lane is just stale xp farming with no combat happening. The last hitting makes sure that you have to be close enough to hit the minions, which means you are close to enemies and encourages fighting to some degree throughout the laning phase. Being closer to the minions and not under the towers also puts you in a position where you can be ganked, adding something else to watch for when defensive, and adding aggressive options. It also accelerates the game flow because without all that gold from last hits you would never see a full item build, and the relative power of everyone would be slowed down at all points in the game due to less items, and people would live through more against people with less item power and the game would last longer. Not things I would want to see. Obviously items can be changed in price and other design changes, but then you'd have supports running around with as much gold as the carries and you can hopefully see my point that the entire game changes by removing last hitting. It almost doesn't matter if you don't like it, because it is already integral and the entire game balance would be thrown out the window.
In HotS though, the towers have limited ammunition. This changes the whole dynamic of the laning phase. In LoL or dota you don't want to auto attack the minions because it will push the lane further out and you are more vulnerable to ganks. In HotS the way the towers are designed and the first tier being so close together, you are encouraged to hit the minions frequently to push the wave into the enemy towers so they run out of ammo. If not responded to by the other team the towers become useless and you gain ground and xp. HotS is a very objective oriented game. Starting just minutes into the game, killing minions for xp becomes secondary to getting the dragon shrines or converging on the tribute. If you add last hitting, you'll always have that one guy on your team who refuses to do the objective and tries to last hit the first half of the game, thinking that if he keeps doing that he'll be powerful enough to make up for the loss of forts on the other side of the map, even though the enemy team is then higher level and the last hitting can't make up for that.
I know that the previous example is not proof of concept at all and merely what I think would happen, so I'll give another example in terms of direct hero balance. Picture the attack of Tycus and the Siege Tank. Tycus has a wind up time on his auto attacks and then hits really quickly. How is he supposed to reliably last hit when all he can do is see something low and hope since each bullet doesn't do as much as say Nova? The Siege Tank offers a different problem. In normal mode, the tank works just like any other hero with a normal auto attack. In Siege mode however, unless you get the talent for movement or are in the brush, your auto attack is automatic on minions so you can't accurately time a last hit. I'm not sure if there is a command holding 's' to force stop on your hero or not, so that might be a problem. Then you have Nova and Zeratul who are cloaked when not attacking. Last hitting forces them out of their passive cloak. Abathur would have to almost steal last hits from other people. Murky would just be screwed (but really screw him). Since the current way of last hitting is only with auto attacks, certain heroes can't compete with others.
So basically in dota and LoL I think last hitting is fine, and even necessary. With the gold gained you then have options with how you want to improve your character. In HotS I think it doesn't have a place and you don't have any options with how last hitting would help you. If you are playing Tassadar you have the option of being support or ranged carry. The game at current doesn't give an option for what to improve, and so one of the ways of building gets no real benefit from it. With as much as the objectives do and has important as they are, I think the last hitting would be a distraction from the teamwork aspect of the game and with the way blizzard has been going, that would be a negative.
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On July 27 2014 02:46 Valiver wrote:
Last hitting is hardly counter-intuitive, as it is prevalent in tons of games. I'm not talking just mobas, but like in rts games the last hit gets credit, in fps games the last hit gets the kill, etc.
And for the record I disagree with the talents that involve hitting a minion when it is close to death (saying last hit in this case is not exactly true), but I like the system in dota and LoL.
In those FPS games, do you deprive your enemy of points by killing your teammates?
The problem most of us have with last-hitting is its bizarre perversity. I actually have no problem with a mechanic like Sylvanas's (presumable) Black Arrow, where things she personally kills turn into skeletons, because sorcery. The marksman talent is borderline; I'd prefer to have it be any minion dying that you damaged at all before dying (if the concept is to encourage laning). But last-hitting and denying just don't make any sense even in a universe where everybody magically resurrects at the altar all the time.
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On July 27 2014 04:42 Yoav wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2014 02:46 Valiver wrote:
Last hitting is hardly counter-intuitive, as it is prevalent in tons of games. I'm not talking just mobas, but like in rts games the last hit gets credit, in fps games the last hit gets the kill, etc.
And for the record I disagree with the talents that involve hitting a minion when it is close to death (saying last hit in this case is not exactly true), but I like the system in dota and LoL. In those FPS games, do you deprive your enemy of points by killing your teammates? The problem most of us have with last-hitting is its bizarre perversity. I actually have no problem with a mechanic like Sylvanas's (presumable) Black Arrow, where things she personally kills turn into skeletons, because sorcery. The marksman talent is borderline; I'd prefer to have it be any minion dying that you damaged at all before dying (if the concept is to encourage laning). But last-hitting and denying just don't make any sense even in a universe where everybody magically resurrects at the altar all the time.
Good games don't make sense. This isn't virtual reality, you're playing to have fun.
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Last hitting can be considered counter-intuitive because if your "team" (creeps and towers) get the last hit, it is intuitive that it would repass the gold along to you, considering they can't spend it themselves. As for last hitting giving damage it can be considered counter-intuitive because your hero "learns" from fighting, not exactly from delivering killing blows. Yes, fantasy and sci-fi works don't have to make sense, but it help immersion if it makes sense given its own logic (for example, if the game stated that heroes were draining the soul of the creeps/minions/whatever, last hitting would suddenly make more "sense").
I haven't played the game (no access) and I have no problem with last hitting (I play dota), but I'm interested in seing how this kind of game works out without the mechanic. Plus I hope for hots to have significantly different mechanics so I have a reason to play it every once in a while instead of dota.
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EPT
