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malcram
2752 Posts
Without the need for last hitting (not going to argue if it's good or bad) and the focus on team fighting. I find the early stages of the game rather tedious. Rather everyone hit their ultis earlier and start having good 'ol team-fight brawls going. Also, stopped playing because of the need to unlock talents for the "new" heroes. And the artifact/rune system is just silly. =/ | ||
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ref4
2933 Posts
On July 29 2014 04:41 arb wrote: That's one of the reasons I don't think i'd like this game. No point in even messing with the creeps, since youre not gonna buy items since they dont exist, and last hitting has no meaning so its just kinda like, why even bother? I enjoy the fighting and such in mobas, but i really really enjoy farming and my cs having some kind of meaning other than just, theres no point in doing this but im gonna just kill creeps for no reason It's part of Blizz's philosophy of trying to appease everyone (you got ganked multiple times because you weren't paying attention/ignored your team? no problem! you are still the same level as the carry on your team that was on ultra-kill rampage! because nobody deserved to be feeling bad about themselves!) That along with the various anti-snowball mechanics.....jesus Blizzard is like taking the politically correct approach of making a game where baddies and feeders don't get punished. | ||
Valiver
Caldeum1977 Posts
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arb
Noobville17922 Posts
On July 29 2014 04:58 Valiver wrote: Can we all please stop using "arbitrary mechanic" and "counter-intuitive"? The entire game is arbitrary, it's a fantasy game where you watch hundreds of guys charge into each other relentlessly trying to kill some glowing building behind some walls. If you don't think something should be the way it is say why and explain yourself. Questioning why it exists in the first place or how it makes sense in terms of the real world doesn't help the discussion at all. To be fair hundreds of guys charging a random object and dying has happened a lot in real life too | ||
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Yoav
United States1874 Posts
On July 29 2014 04:58 Valiver wrote: Can we all please stop using "arbitrary mechanic" and "counter-intuitive"? The entire game is arbitrary, it's a fantasy game where you watch hundreds of guys charge into each other relentlessly trying to kill some glowing building behind some walls. If you don't think something should be the way it is say why and explain yourself. Questioning why it exists in the first place or how it makes sense in terms of the real world doesn't help the discussion at all. Here's the line: when you explain what you're watching/doing to your non-gamer friends, do they say "okay" or "the fuck?" It's hard to explain last-hitting/denying without having to apologize for it. People have a easy time with the idea of constant fighting and endless respawning. Even area based XP doesn't require that kind of apology: "You get experienced the more you're near fighting, and getting experienced makes you stronger." | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26772 Posts
On July 29 2014 05:18 Yoav wrote: Here's the line: when you explain what you're watching/doing to your non-gamer friends, do they say "okay" or "the fuck?" It's hard to explain last-hitting/denying without having to apologize for it. People have a easy time with the idea of constant fighting and endless respawning. Even area based XP doesn't require that kind of apology: "You get experienced the more you're near fighting, and getting experienced makes you stronger." It's really not that complicated a mechanic to explain, at all. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On July 29 2014 05:18 Yoav wrote: Here's the line: when you explain what you're watching/doing to your non-gamer friends, do they say "okay" or "the fuck?" It's hard to explain last-hitting/denying without having to apologize for it. People have a easy time with the idea of constant fighting and endless respawning. Even area based XP doesn't require that kind of apology: "You get experienced the more you're near fighting, and getting experienced makes you stronger." You're doing it wrong. I had 5 people over to watch the International this year who had never played a moba ever and explained it just fine. I even explained denying to them and they accepted it as a solid game mechanic. Don't blame a mechanic for your inability to explain its merits well. | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10883 Posts
On July 29 2014 05:18 Yoav wrote: Here's the line: when you explain what you're watching/doing to your non-gamer friends, do they say "okay" or "the fuck?" It's hard to explain last-hitting/denying without having to apologize for it. People have a easy time with the idea of constant fighting and endless respawning. Even area based XP doesn't require that kind of apology: "You get experienced the more you're near fighting, and getting experienced makes you stronger." Scoring the killing blow gives you gold. Denieing an enemy creep takes away experience and possible Gold form your opponent. Yeah, thats a really hard concept, luckily all my friends are rocket scientists and could understand it.... | ||
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Yoav
United States1874 Posts
It is easy to understand, and to explain. So would a mechanic that required you to do that proverbial arithmetic problem. But you would have to apologize or shrug your shoulders every time you explained it to a non-gamer. Because it kinda feels like bullshit. Putting it more objectively: while there is clearly a (vocal) contingent that is in favor of last-hit mechanics, it is also clear that there are lots of people who think it's dumb and artificial, even within the gaming community. My point is that a lot of people feel the mechanic is artificial. This is pretty incontrovertible, given the evidence here (and even moreso in places other than progaming forums). | ||
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magnaflow
Canada1521 Posts
On July 29 2014 05:38 Wombat_NI wrote: It's really not that complicated a mechanic to explain, at all. Exactly. If you have to explain what las hitting is to one of your friends, how on earth will he understand the rest of the game? | ||
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Thalandros
Netherlands1151 Posts
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
On July 29 2014 06:38 Velr wrote: Scoring the killing blow gives you gold. Denieing an enemy creep takes away experience and possible Gold form your opponent. Yeah, thats a really hard concept, luckily all my friends are rocket scientists and could understand it.... The problem is that being good at it means knowing 100+ heroes attack delays, approximate damage, and being able to gauge how fast mobs health goes down. The reason why denies are unpopular is that you're killing your own units, and nothing in the game tells you that doing so is a good idea, someone else has to. A new player will learn quite quick that in DotA, when they get the last hit, they get gold, because they're bound to do it eventually (even if accidentally), but they'll never kill their own units until told to do so. That's why it's unintuitive. Hardcore gamers won't care because they'll do research and the like, but it's not something you just pick up by playing. Anyway, the "last hitting" talent in HotS are massively overrated at the moment. You never want to stay in lane for long enough for them to be better than the old Path of the Assassin and you'll usually end up with like 30 or so damage by the end of the game if you're lucky because games end so quickly. I'd avoid them in favor of anything that offers at least a marginal benefit. | ||
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Anakko
France1934 Posts
On July 29 2014 10:58 deth2munkies wrote: The reason why denies are unpopular is that you're killing your own units, and nothing in the game tells you that doing so is a good idea, someone else has to. A new player will learn quite quick that in DotA, when they get the last hit, they get gold, because they're bound to do it eventually (even if accidentally), but they'll never kill their own units until told to do so. Not that hard to pick up on a mechanic like the creep deny. If you see your opponent do it, you're gonna figure out what's happening pretty quickly. | ||
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
On July 29 2014 11:39 Anakko wrote: Not that hard to pick up on a mechanic like the creep deny. If you see your opponent do it, you're gonna figure out what's happening pretty quickly. 1) Probably not, you overestimate the average player. 2) Even if you do, you have no idea why or what it does because it doesn't tell you. Gold pops up when you kill a minion, but all you get is a "!" and even then that's only in DotA 2. If it said "-XP" when you killed your own minion that might help, even then, it's a stupid mechanic that just reinforces snowball lanes. | ||
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Footler
United States560 Posts
On July 29 2014 10:57 Thalandros wrote: So I just got the game July 17th while I was on holiday added to my account, and I played the tutorial + 1 vs AI match with Brightwing. I picked him because it said ''Hard'' and wanted to know what it feels like but the AI are tuned veeery easily. I've played a bit of Dota and LoL on the side and I understand most mechanics so it's not going to be very hard learning the game for me. What heroes do you guys suggest I should try out in coop/versus soon enough, or what heroes should I buy and try out (with gold, not actual money) Any heroes that stand out or represent a specific role really well? I want to get a quick good feel of the game Nova for assassin, Lili for support, Stitches for tank, Sgt. Hammer for specialist. I feel like those represent each role pretty well. If you want something completely different try Abathur. | ||
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deth2munkies
United States4051 Posts
On July 29 2014 12:06 Footler wrote: Nova for assassin, Lili for support, Stitches for tank, Sgt. Hammer for specialist. I feel like those represent each role pretty well. If you want something completely different try Abathur. Lili is boring though, Malfurion is the more fun support IMO. | ||
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miicah
Australia2470 Posts
On July 29 2014 06:57 Yoav wrote:It is easy to understand, and to explain. So would a mechanic that required you to do that proverbial arithmetic problem. But you would have to apologize or shrug your shoulders every time you explained it to a non-gamer. Because it kinda feels like bullshit. I have explained last hitting to my girlfriend (a very much non-gamer) and I pretty much just said "you kill these guys to get gold." I don't really understand where you are coming from when you try to make out it's a super complicated or bullshit mechanic. | ||
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saddaromma
1129 Posts
On July 29 2014 12:55 miicah wrote: I have explained last hitting to my girlfriend (a very much non-gamer) and I pretty much just said "you kill these guys to get gold." I don't really understand where you are coming from when you try to make out it's a super complicated or bullshit mechanic. I am not totally against last-hitting, but I also find it a dumb. Its like maximum unit selection cap or no rally points in old RTS games. You had to manage everything manually, and some call it "skill", whereas I call it limitation. Lets not forget the main goal of the game is to beat your opponent and not game limitations (imperfections, artificial difficulty enhancers, obstructions or whatever). For example, not long ago Riot introduced timers for major monsters, dragon and baron, so that players do not need to keep track of them manually. There was also uproar of some gamers who also thought it was part of "skill" and riot just ruined the game. But again, as I said its about outplaying your opponent, not the game limitations. All in all I call lasthitting bullshit, since I think games would be far better without them. | ||
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ak1knight
United States313 Posts
On July 29 2014 12:03 deth2munkies wrote: 1) Probably not, you overestimate the average player. 2) Even if you do, you have no idea why or what it does because it doesn't tell you. Gold pops up when you kill a minion, but all you get is a "!" and even then that's only in DotA 2. If it said "-XP" when you killed your own minion that might help, even then, it's a stupid mechanic that just reinforces snowball lanes. The Dota 2 tutorial that it has you go through has a whole laning section where it teaches you solely to last hit and deny. There are mechanics in ANY game where if you don't do research you aren't going to understand/notice, and quite frankly denying minions in dota isn't THAT huge (denying towers/heros can be, but at a low level even that isn't super impactful on the game). To me, you need some sort of snowball mechanic in MOBAs, or else the first 20 minutes before death timers start getting long is completely pointless. Does it necessarily HAVE to be last hitting? No, but there needs to be something. | ||
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GTPGlitch
5061 Posts
On July 29 2014 13:39 saddaromma wrote: I am not totally against last-hitting, but I also find it a dumb. Its like maximum unit selection cap or no rally points in old RTS games. You had to manage everything manually, and some call it "skill", whereas I call it limitation. Lets not forget the main goal of the game is to beat your opponent and not game limitations (imperfections, artificial difficulty enhancers, obstructions or whatever). For example, not long ago Riot introduced timers for major monsters, dragon and baron, so that players do not need to keep track of them manually. There was also uproar of some gamers who also thought it was part of "skill" and riot just ruined the game. But again, as I said its about outplaying your opponent, not the game limitations. All in all I call lasthitting bullshit, since I think games would be far better without them. I don't understand how you don't think of lasthitting as another opportunity to outplay your opponent. If it was just about the gold, sure it would be boring, but it's not. It's about being able to CS while maintaining advantageous positioning, and outtrading your opponent in harass, and having the ability to scare them out of range with allin potential or keeping yourself from getting caught out in an allin while maintaining harass and CS. Without last-hitting, the laning phase is much more arbitrary, especially with global exp - instead of having a disparity in income and thus items, as long as you stand within X units of a unit when it dies you get the same value as someone who killed it does, with the only disadvantage coming from wave pushing. | ||
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