EPTOn June 23 2014 15:14 YouKnowZhou wrote:
I'd like to talk to you about your read on VE. you said early on that his lurkiness was bad, but not as bad as mine (link) and mid day 2 you say his activity indicates otherwise (otherwise what?) and that he's generating discusison, then you ask for opinions on him and never follow up (link)
At the end of Night 2, you said VE is climbing back into your suspicious territory, where he apparently always lives (link) and you ask Snickers to look into him (because you think VE is scum? this isn't clear to me) (link). You defend VE from lazer and note that lazer is a more serious candidate than VE (though now I'm pretty sure Ve is leading in the votes) (link). Lastly, you finish by saying you read him similar to mderg, who flipped scum, but then you say in the same para that VE isn't as mafia as mderg, and vote Lazermo (link).
So I guess my question is, can you give me a straight read on VE? He has always been "scummy" or "risinginly scummy" in your book, and you ask people about him a lot, but you never write a concrete case against him, or even interrogate him seriously. What's going on here, Release? what do you really think of VE?
I'd like to talk to you about your read on VE. you said early on that his lurkiness was bad, but not as bad as mine (link) and mid day 2 you say his activity indicates otherwise (otherwise what?) and that he's generating discusison, then you ask for opinions on him and never follow up (link)
At the end of Night 2, you said VE is climbing back into your suspicious territory, where he apparently always lives (link) and you ask Snickers to look into him (because you think VE is scum? this isn't clear to me) (link). You defend VE from lazer and note that lazer is a more serious candidate than VE (though now I'm pretty sure Ve is leading in the votes) (link). Lastly, you finish by saying you read him similar to mderg, who flipped scum, but then you say in the same para that VE isn't as mafia as mderg, and vote Lazermo (link).
So I guess my question is, can you give me a straight read on VE? He has always been "scummy" or "risinginly scummy" in your book, and you ask people about him a lot, but you never write a concrete case against him, or even interrogate him seriously. What's going on here, Release? what do you really think of VE?
Also, I would like you to directly address and respond to the specific concerns I bring up in my case against VE. If I'm wrong, (and I don't think I am, but then again, nobody who is really wrong thinks they're wrong), I want to know I am wrong. Tell me why this case doesn't make sense, or why VE is townie anyways, or why Lazermo is a better lynch along these parameters, but please, tell me this is wrong if you think it is wrong.
Read the case (link). Let me know what you think. Be straight with me, as I am trying to be with you.
On June 23 2014 12:33 YouKnowZhou wrote:
tl;dr VE is scum, for reasons I outlined earlier. Let's lynch him.
So, I made some noises (link) about the possibility of VE being town earlier. However, having taken a look a the facts, I do not believe the fact that VE backed off from me should significantly impact my read on him. I initially thought the backing-off may be deserving of a townread since a scum VE could potentially get me lynched with effort, and the "fake anger" strategy was working well. However, I believe I was selling short how good a job I had done of appearing co-operative. I had made it so even a scum VE would have to tone down the anger, would have to not ratchet things up and continue yelling at me.
I'm going to refer to my end-of-day case here, so please read it: (link). VE has not since responded to it, and I'm going to address his semi-responses and cast a vote on VE. I'm also going to talk about the posts he has made since I made that post, at the very last moments of the night.
The relevant part is here:
First off, let's look at VE's "last minute" post.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=828&topic_id=458796
This post, in which VE asks for a vigi shot, is in the very very last second of the night. I tried to make my post at the very last second before the deadline, but VE actually slipped this in between my post and the deadline. Now, you may think, "it makes sense for VE to ask to be shot. After all, maybe he's worried he'd get lynched as a townie and doesn't want to waste town's time". That's true, but look at the timing; there's absolutely no way that VE is going to get shot when he posts at that time, when it's too late for anyone to do anything. So what's the purpose? I can't find one other than "it makes VE look a tiny bit better", but honestly it's so see-through that the only thing I can think of is that VE is just trying to make noises that he thinks a townie would make, and he screwed up. Who asks for a vigi shot when it's too late for vigis to shoot? Remember, ve was in the thread about 10 minutes earlier (link) as well as throughout the night, he had plenty of time to ask for a shot and he didn't until it would make no difference.
Next, VE retcons (link) how he was feeling about mderg during D2. It's true, VE made a scumread on mderg, but who was VE voting, even when his stated reasons for voting changed conditions? It was me, not mderg. Ve made all the noises about wanting to lynch mderg, and he even said that he liked Sloosh and Release on my wagon, and he wasn't voting mderg because Snickers and I were voting mderg. (link). Then, when release votes mderg and snickers votes ykz, VE stands by his vote. Remember, it was "2 townreads on the ykz wagon, 2 scumreads on the mderg wagon, that's my main reason here." When one of his townreads votes for mderg and one of his scumreads votes for me, what's the deal then VE? This has never adequately been explained, except when he changes his explantion to "sloosh was my rock", which is NOT the explanation he was using during the lynch (again, here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=37#721).
So, VE made a lot of NOISE about being fine about the mderg wagon. I totally agree with him that he certainly liked to WRITE that he was fine about the mderg wagon. He definitely made up reasons that he voted me over mderg. But when those conditions changed, and his reasons didn't make sense any more, he didn't swap to mderg, or even try to re-evaluate. No, instead he "got mad" at me (link) and "happened" to be afk during the crucial time leading up to the lynch.
But enough about D2; let's talk about D3.
VE lays out his scumreads for today, which are me and Sloosh he says he's conflicted, and his heart says bh and his head says sloosh (link). He then asks for help. He doesn't have questions, he doesn't have cases to write. He doesn't ask me to clarify anything (Despite apparently now being cool with cooperating with me) and he doesn't try to address sloosh in any way.
When artanis replies, VE responds by quoting his nk speculation in which he's telling me he's "giving me a pass" for D3. (link). This is in contradiction with his previous post, but I consider this contradiction to be a towntell rather than a scumtell. The issue with this post isn't that he contradicts himself (townies often do this) but that when someone offers an opinion, he just drops a quote and doesn't press on.
Then, he just says "chez ur on the table today" (link) and it's like fairly clear at this point VE is just trying to figure out which way the wind is blowing. I'm amazed he hasn't made a koshi case yet
. So here's where things get interesting. He's back onto the "gk kill means something" train (link) and trying to give himself credit for the mderg lynch again, but look at what he says about GK specifically
At this point, VE is not in fact looking at GK's post and trying to evaluate it for merit. He's not saying "i'm gonna read this case or post with fresh eyes, as though GK were still alive, since GK was shot and is conftown". Instead, he's focusing his opinion on the scum part of the thing, the fact that GK was killed. GK could be killed for all kinds of reasons, and it can be valuable to speculate about it at times, but look at VE here. He's not using dead GK as some kind of resource to read, looking at the cases and posts like someone who's townie would. Instead of looking for GK's logic, his mind goes to reasons scum would shoot GK. I consider this to be a minor point in comparison to the end-of-D2 stuff. But it's a point.
Buddying me (link) but more importantly an attack on sloosh. Why defend a scumread, VE?
He defends himself, but not against my case (link). The taking credit thing is clever and annoying but not on its own an issue. It's really wroth noting that the 2nd post, about original posts, is spot-on. During D2 VE is mostly just chucking out rando reads without following them up, probably looking to see what sticks before writing a case. After losing his partner, VE wants to not overstep his leadership, which means toning down the nasty and buddying with me, and being like water and changing his shape to fill the container.
As I wrote this post, he decides to vote me and of course does not write or reference a case: (link)
I'll just leave that post in which VE votes me with no explanation, next to this quote from VE just 10 hours earlier:
So I guess VE, besides all the points against you, something HAS changed. I have now pushed and voted for scum. You don't jsut get to come in and throw a vote down on BH without some explaining why I do that as mderg's mafia partner , in the words of a wise man.
##vote VisceraEyes
tl;dr VE is scum, for reasons I outlined earlier. Let's lynch him.
So, I made some noises (link) about the possibility of VE being town earlier. However, having taken a look a the facts, I do not believe the fact that VE backed off from me should significantly impact my read on him. I initially thought the backing-off may be deserving of a townread since a scum VE could potentially get me lynched with effort, and the "fake anger" strategy was working well. However, I believe I was selling short how good a job I had done of appearing co-operative. I had made it so even a scum VE would have to tone down the anger, would have to not ratchet things up and continue yelling at me.
I'm going to refer to my end-of-day case here, so please read it: (link). VE has not since responded to it, and I'm going to address his semi-responses and cast a vote on VE. I'm also going to talk about the posts he has made since I made that post, at the very last moments of the night.
The relevant part is here:
First off, let's look at VE's "last minute" post.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=828&topic_id=458796
This post, in which VE asks for a vigi shot, is in the very very last second of the night. I tried to make my post at the very last second before the deadline, but VE actually slipped this in between my post and the deadline. Now, you may think, "it makes sense for VE to ask to be shot. After all, maybe he's worried he'd get lynched as a townie and doesn't want to waste town's time". That's true, but look at the timing; there's absolutely no way that VE is going to get shot when he posts at that time, when it's too late for anyone to do anything. So what's the purpose? I can't find one other than "it makes VE look a tiny bit better", but honestly it's so see-through that the only thing I can think of is that VE is just trying to make noises that he thinks a townie would make, and he screwed up. Who asks for a vigi shot when it's too late for vigis to shoot? Remember, ve was in the thread about 10 minutes earlier (link) as well as throughout the night, he had plenty of time to ask for a shot and he didn't until it would make no difference.
Next, VE retcons (link) how he was feeling about mderg during D2. It's true, VE made a scumread on mderg, but who was VE voting, even when his stated reasons for voting changed conditions? It was me, not mderg. Ve made all the noises about wanting to lynch mderg, and he even said that he liked Sloosh and Release on my wagon, and he wasn't voting mderg because Snickers and I were voting mderg. (link). Then, when release votes mderg and snickers votes ykz, VE stands by his vote. Remember, it was "2 townreads on the ykz wagon, 2 scumreads on the mderg wagon, that's my main reason here." When one of his townreads votes for mderg and one of his scumreads votes for me, what's the deal then VE? This has never adequately been explained, except when he changes his explantion to "sloosh was my rock", which is NOT the explanation he was using during the lynch (again, here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=37#721).
So, VE made a lot of NOISE about being fine about the mderg wagon. I totally agree with him that he certainly liked to WRITE that he was fine about the mderg wagon. He definitely made up reasons that he voted me over mderg. But when those conditions changed, and his reasons didn't make sense any more, he didn't swap to mderg, or even try to re-evaluate. No, instead he "got mad" at me (link) and "happened" to be afk during the crucial time leading up to the lynch.
But enough about D2; let's talk about D3.
VE lays out his scumreads for today, which are me and Sloosh he says he's conflicted, and his heart says bh and his head says sloosh (link). He then asks for help. He doesn't have questions, he doesn't have cases to write. He doesn't ask me to clarify anything (Despite apparently now being cool with cooperating with me) and he doesn't try to address sloosh in any way.
When artanis replies, VE responds by quoting his nk speculation in which he's telling me he's "giving me a pass" for D3. (link). This is in contradiction with his previous post, but I consider this contradiction to be a towntell rather than a scumtell. The issue with this post isn't that he contradicts himself (townies often do this) but that when someone offers an opinion, he just drops a quote and doesn't press on.
Then, he just says "chez ur on the table today" (link) and it's like fairly clear at this point VE is just trying to figure out which way the wind is blowing. I'm amazed he hasn't made a koshi case yet
. So here's where things get interesting. He's back onto the "gk kill means something" train (link) and trying to give himself credit for the mderg lynch again, but look at what he says about GK specificallyAt this point, VE is not in fact looking at GK's post and trying to evaluate it for merit. He's not saying "i'm gonna read this case or post with fresh eyes, as though GK were still alive, since GK was shot and is conftown". Instead, he's focusing his opinion on the scum part of the thing, the fact that GK was killed. GK could be killed for all kinds of reasons, and it can be valuable to speculate about it at times, but look at VE here. He's not using dead GK as some kind of resource to read, looking at the cases and posts like someone who's townie would. Instead of looking for GK's logic, his mind goes to reasons scum would shoot GK. I consider this to be a minor point in comparison to the end-of-D2 stuff. But it's a point.
Buddying me (link) but more importantly an attack on sloosh. Why defend a scumread, VE?
He defends himself, but not against my case (link). The taking credit thing is clever and annoying but not on its own an issue. It's really wroth noting that the 2nd post, about original posts, is spot-on. During D2 VE is mostly just chucking out rando reads without following them up, probably looking to see what sticks before writing a case. After losing his partner, VE wants to not overstep his leadership, which means toning down the nasty and buddying with me, and being like water and changing his shape to fill the container.
As I wrote this post, he decides to vote me and of course does not write or reference a case: (link)
I'll just leave that post in which VE votes me with no explanation, next to this quote from VE just 10 hours earlier:
So I guess VE, besides all the points against you, something HAS changed. I have now pushed and voted for scum. You don't jsut get to come in and throw a vote down on BH without some explaining why I do that as mderg's mafia partner , in the words of a wise man.
##vote VisceraEyes
