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tl;dr VE is scum, for reasons I outlined earlier. Let's lynch him.
So, I made some noises (link) about the possibility of VE being town earlier. However, having taken a look a the facts, I do not believe the fact that VE backed off from me should significantly impact my read on him. I initially thought the backing-off may be deserving of a townread since a scum VE could potentially get me lynched with effort, and the "fake anger" strategy was working well. However, I believe I was selling short how good a job I had done of appearing co-operative. I had made it so even a scum VE would have to tone down the anger, would have to not ratchet things up and continue yelling at me.
I'm going to refer to my end-of-day case here, so please read it: (link). VE has not since responded to it, and I'm going to address his semi-responses and cast a vote on VE. I'm also going to talk about the posts he has made since I made that post, at the very last moments of the night.
The relevant part is here:
On June 22 2014 08:59 YouKnowZhou wrote:3. VE should not be left off the hook. Remember, during the time when I was trying to get in a last set of reads (sorta) before getting lynched, when I was chipping in an we were having real discussion? Suddenly, VE is "angry" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=33#651 and afks until right before the deadline. I explain how VE's actions during the last few hours of D2 are pretty clearly scum-motivated here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=38#758 . His response is here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=39#762Take a look at how he responds. He talks about sloosh looking good, and leaves out the fact that I have had to prod him multiple times over everything, doesn't address the fact that his reasoning was that he liked Sloosh and Release on my wagon, and disliked snickers and me on mderg: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=37#721Remember, later on, when VE is in the thread, Release, one of the two guys he likes, is on mderg, and Snickers, one of the guys he doesn't like, is on me. So, he changes his explantion to "sloosh was my rock", which is NOT the explanation he was using during the lynch (again, here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=37#721). It is, however, more convenient, just like VE's fake anger (until he got called out for it and realized I was being super reasonable), or VE's afking right after I start engaging my thread, up until riight before the deadline. In fact, it's also interesting that he tries to shut down snickers' posting here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=39#766but hey, dont' worry guys, after he gets called out, half an hour later VE says it was a joke. Of course, I don't see ANYTHING joking about that read at all, so I guess I'm missing something, but it's awfully convenient http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22411055. Also, note that VE was pretending to be mad at me up until he realized it was looking bad, then decided to stop being mad at me just long enough to address the case I made against him. All these convenient afks, fake anger, and convenient "jokes" telling people to stop engaging the thread are all things that VE has tried to brush off, but this coupled with VE's low contribution amount this game (don't look at his filter size-- even though he has 3 pages he has spent a lot of it being afk or pretending to be mad at me) it's basically clear he's scum.
First off, let's look at VE's "last minute" post.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=828&topic_id=458796
This post, in which VE asks for a vigi shot, is in the very very last second of the night. I tried to make my post at the very last second before the deadline, but VE actually slipped this in between my post and the deadline. Now, you may think, "it makes sense for VE to ask to be shot. After all, maybe he's worried he'd get lynched as a townie and doesn't want to waste town's time". That's true, but look at the timing; there's absolutely no way that VE is going to get shot when he posts at that time, when it's too late for anyone to do anything. So what's the purpose? I can't find one other than "it makes VE look a tiny bit better", but honestly it's so see-through that the only thing I can think of is that VE is just trying to make noises that he thinks a townie would make, and he screwed up. Who asks for a vigi shot when it's too late for vigis to shoot? Remember, ve was in the thread about 10 minutes earlier (link) as well as throughout the night, he had plenty of time to ask for a shot and he didn't until it would make no difference.
Next, VE retcons (link) how he was feeling about mderg during D2. It's true, VE made a scumread on mderg, but who was VE voting, even when his stated reasons for voting changed conditions? It was me, not mderg. Ve made all the noises about wanting to lynch mderg, and he even said that he liked Sloosh and Release on my wagon, and he wasn't voting mderg because Snickers and I were voting mderg. (link). Then, when release votes mderg and snickers votes ykz, VE stands by his vote. Remember, it was "2 townreads on the ykz wagon, 2 scumreads on the mderg wagon, that's my main reason here." When one of his townreads votes for mderg and one of his scumreads votes for me, what's the deal then VE? This has never adequately been explained, except when he changes his explantion to "sloosh was my rock", which is NOT the explanation he was using during the lynch (again, here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=37#721).
So, VE made a lot of NOISE about being fine about the mderg wagon. I totally agree with him that he certainly liked to WRITE that he was fine about the mderg wagon. He definitely made up reasons that he voted me over mderg. But when those conditions changed, and his reasons didn't make sense any more, he didn't swap to mderg, or even try to re-evaluate. No, instead he "got mad" at me (link) and "happened" to be afk during the crucial time leading up to the lynch.
But enough about D2; let's talk about D3.
VE lays out his scumreads for today, which are me and Sloosh he says he's conflicted, and his heart says bh and his head says sloosh (link). He then asks for help. He doesn't have questions, he doesn't have cases to write. He doesn't ask me to clarify anything (Despite apparently now being cool with cooperating with me) and he doesn't try to address sloosh in any way.
When artanis replies, VE responds by quoting his nk speculation in which he's telling me he's "giving me a pass" for D3. (link). This is in contradiction with his previous post, but I consider this contradiction to be a towntell rather than a scumtell. The issue with this post isn't that he contradicts himself (townies often do this) but that when someone offers an opinion, he just drops a quote and doesn't press on.
Then, he just says "chez ur on the table today" (link) and it's like fairly clear at this point VE is just trying to figure out which way the wind is blowing. I'm amazed he hasn't made a koshi case yet  . So here's where things get interesting. He's back onto the "gk kill means something" train (link) and trying to give himself credit for the mderg lynch again, but look at what he says about GK specifically
On June 22 2014 10:17 VisceraEyes wrote:
This was the post that solidified my read on mderg - he mentioned something I also noticed (and mentioned actually) and he ended up dying in the night. However beyond this you're right, at the end of the day he ended up on the "mderg town" side of things. :/
Frankly the only thing I can see GK being killed for is either a busted role-hunt or to implicate me somehow (he ended up scummy on me at the end of the day). Good to know.
At this point, VE is not in fact looking at GK's post and trying to evaluate it for merit. He's not saying "i'm gonna read this case or post with fresh eyes, as though GK were still alive, since GK was shot and is conftown". Instead, he's focusing his opinion on the scum part of the thing, the fact that GK was killed. GK could be killed for all kinds of reasons, and it can be valuable to speculate about it at times, but look at VE here. He's not using dead GK as some kind of resource to read, looking at the cases and posts like someone who's townie would. Instead of looking for GK's logic, his mind goes to reasons scum would shoot GK. I consider this to be a minor point in comparison to the end-of-D2 stuff. But it's a point.
Buddying me (link) but more importantly an attack on sloosh. Why defend a scumread, VE?
He defends himself, but not against my case (link). The taking credit thing is clever and annoying but not on its own an issue. It's really wroth noting that the 2nd post, about original posts, is spot-on. During D2 VE is mostly just chucking out rando reads without following them up, probably looking to see what sticks before writing a case. After losing his partner, VE wants to not overstep his leadership, which means toning down the nasty and buddying with me, and being like water and changing his shape to fill the container.
As I wrote this post, he decides to vote me and of course does not write or reference a case: (link)
On June 23 2014 12:16 VisceraEyes wrote:
slOosh do you still think BH is mafia? Release does. And I think I'm rescinding his pass for his BS last night.
##Vote: YouKnowZhou
I'll just leave that post in which VE votes me with no explanation, next to this quote from VE just 10 hours earlier:
On June 23 2014 02:42 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2014 17:45 slOosh wrote:
Righto. Nothings changed. Any questions? I'm an open book.
##Vote YouKnowZhou This isn't true at all, something HAS changed. THIS cycle instead of having only one townie tunnel on his resume, BH has now pushed and voted for scum. That HAS changed and you don't just get to come in and throw a vote down on BH without explaining why he does that as mderg's mafia partner. 
So I guess VE, besides all the points against you, something HAS changed. I have now pushed and voted for scum. You don't jsut get to come in and throw a vote down on BH without some explaining why I do that as mderg's mafia partner , in the words of a wise man.
##vote VisceraEyes
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Woops not posting, I meant voting. So I do not want to post a one liner but I do not have anything else to say.
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On June 23 2014 12:33 YouKnowZhou wrote:tl;dr VE is scum, for reasons I outlined earlier. Let's lynch him. So, I made some noises (link) about the possibility of VE being town earlier. However, having taken a look a the facts, I do not believe the fact that VE backed off from me should significantly impact my read on him. I initially thought the backing-off may be deserving of a townread since a scum VE could potentially get me lynched with effort, and the "fake anger" strategy was working well. However, I believe I was selling short how good a job I had done of appearing co-operative. I had made it so even a scum VE would have to tone down the anger, would have to not ratchet things up and continue yelling at me. I'm going to refer to my end-of-day case here, so please read it: (link). VE has not since responded to it, and I'm going to address his semi-responses and cast a vote on VE. I'm also going to talk about the posts he has made since I made that post, at the very last moments of the night. The relevant part is here: Show nested quote +On June 22 2014 08:59 YouKnowZhou wrote:3. VE should not be left off the hook. Remember, during the time when I was trying to get in a last set of reads (sorta) before getting lynched, when I was chipping in an we were having real discussion? Suddenly, VE is "angry" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=33#651 and afks until right before the deadline. I explain how VE's actions during the last few hours of D2 are pretty clearly scum-motivated here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=38#758 . His response is here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=39#762Take a look at how he responds. He talks about sloosh looking good, and leaves out the fact that I have had to prod him multiple times over everything, doesn't address the fact that his reasoning was that he liked Sloosh and Release on my wagon, and disliked snickers and me on mderg: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=37#721Remember, later on, when VE is in the thread, Release, one of the two guys he likes, is on mderg, and Snickers, one of the guys he doesn't like, is on me. So, he changes his explantion to "sloosh was my rock", which is NOT the explanation he was using during the lynch (again, here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=37#721). It is, however, more convenient, just like VE's fake anger (until he got called out for it and realized I was being super reasonable), or VE's afking right after I start engaging my thread, up until riight before the deadline. In fact, it's also interesting that he tries to shut down snickers' posting here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=39#766but hey, dont' worry guys, after he gets called out, half an hour later VE says it was a joke. Of course, I don't see ANYTHING joking about that read at all, so I guess I'm missing something, but it's awfully convenient http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22411055. Also, note that VE was pretending to be mad at me up until he realized it was looking bad, then decided to stop being mad at me just long enough to address the case I made against him. All these convenient afks, fake anger, and convenient "jokes" telling people to stop engaging the thread are all things that VE has tried to brush off, but this coupled with VE's low contribution amount this game (don't look at his filter size-- even though he has 3 pages he has spent a lot of it being afk or pretending to be mad at me) it's basically clear he's scum. First off, let's look at VE's "last minute" post. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=828&topic_id=458796This post, in which VE asks for a vigi shot, is in the very very last second of the night. I tried to make my post at the very last second before the deadline, but VE actually slipped this in between my post and the deadline. Now, you may think, "it makes sense for VE to ask to be shot. After all, maybe he's worried he'd get lynched as a townie and doesn't want to waste town's time". That's true, but look at the timing; there's absolutely no way that VE is going to get shot when he posts at that time, when it's too late for anyone to do anything. So what's the purpose? I can't find one other than "it makes VE look a tiny bit better", but honestly it's so see-through that the only thing I can think of is that VE is just trying to make noises that he thinks a townie would make, and he screwed up. Who asks for a vigi shot when it's too late for vigis to shoot? Remember, ve was in the thread about 10 minutes earlier (link) as well as throughout the night, he had plenty of time to ask for a shot and he didn't until it would make no difference. Next, VE retcons (link) how he was feeling about mderg during D2. It's true, VE made a scumread on mderg, but who was VE voting, even when his stated reasons for voting changed conditions? It was me, not mderg. Ve made all the noises about wanting to lynch mderg, and he even said that he liked Sloosh and Release on my wagon, and he wasn't voting mderg because Snickers and I were voting mderg. (link). Then, when release votes mderg and snickers votes ykz, VE stands by his vote. Remember, it was "2 townreads on the ykz wagon, 2 scumreads on the mderg wagon, that's my main reason here." When one of his townreads votes for mderg and one of his scumreads votes for me, what's the deal then VE? This has never adequately been explained, except when he changes his explantion to "sloosh was my rock", which is NOT the explanation he was using during the lynch (again, here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=37#721). So, VE made a lot of NOISE about being fine about the mderg wagon. I totally agree with him that he certainly liked to WRITE that he was fine about the mderg wagon. He definitely made up reasons that he voted me over mderg. But when those conditions changed, and his reasons didn't make sense any more, he didn't swap to mderg, or even try to re-evaluate. No, instead he "got mad" at me (link) and "happened" to be afk during the crucial time leading up to the lynch. But enough about D2; let's talk about D3. VE lays out his scumreads for today, which are me and Sloosh he says he's conflicted, and his heart says bh and his head says sloosh (link). He then asks for help. He doesn't have questions, he doesn't have cases to write. He doesn't ask me to clarify anything (Despite apparently now being cool with cooperating with me) and he doesn't try to address sloosh in any way. When artanis replies, VE responds by quoting his nk speculation in which he's telling me he's "giving me a pass" for D3. (link). This is in contradiction with his previous post, but I consider this contradiction to be a towntell rather than a scumtell. The issue with this post isn't that he contradicts himself (townies often do this) but that when someone offers an opinion, he just drops a quote and doesn't press on. Then, he just says "chez ur on the table today" (link) and it's like fairly clear at this point VE is just trying to figure out which way the wind is blowing. I'm amazed he hasn't made a koshi case yet . So here's where things get interesting. He's back onto the "gk kill means something" train (link) and trying to give himself credit for the mderg lynch again, but look at what he says about GK specifically Show nested quote +On June 22 2014 10:17 VisceraEyes wrote:
This was the post that solidified my read on mderg - he mentioned something I also noticed (and mentioned actually) and he ended up dying in the night. However beyond this you're right, at the end of the day he ended up on the "mderg town" side of things. :/
Frankly the only thing I can see GK being killed for is either a busted role-hunt or to implicate me somehow (he ended up scummy on me at the end of the day). Good to know. At this point, VE is not in fact looking at GK's post and trying to evaluate it for merit. He's not saying "i'm gonna read this case or post with fresh eyes, as though GK were still alive, since GK was shot and is conftown". Instead, he's focusing his opinion on the scum part of the thing, the fact that GK was killed. GK could be killed for all kinds of reasons, and it can be valuable to speculate about it at times, but look at VE here. He's not using dead GK as some kind of resource to read, looking at the cases and posts like someone who's townie would. Instead of looking for GK's logic, his mind goes to reasons scum would shoot GK. I consider this to be a minor point in comparison to the end-of-D2 stuff. But it's a point. Buddying me (link) but more importantly an attack on sloosh. Why defend a scumread, VE? He defends himself, but not against my case (link). The taking credit thing is clever and annoying but not on its own an issue. It's really wroth noting that the 2nd post, about original posts, is spot-on. During D2 VE is mostly just chucking out rando reads without following them up, probably looking to see what sticks before writing a case. After losing his partner, VE wants to not overstep his leadership, which means toning down the nasty and buddying with me, and being like water and changing his shape to fill the container. As I wrote this post, he decides to vote me and of course does not write or reference a case: (link)Show nested quote +On June 23 2014 12:16 VisceraEyes wrote:
slOosh do you still think BH is mafia? Release does. And I think I'm rescinding his pass for his BS last night.
##Vote: YouKnowZhou I'll just leave that post in which VE votes me with no explanation, next to this quote from VE just 10 hours earlier: Show nested quote +On June 23 2014 02:42 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 22 2014 17:45 slOosh wrote:
Righto. Nothings changed. Any questions? I'm an open book.
##Vote YouKnowZhou This isn't true at all, something HAS changed. THIS cycle instead of having only one townie tunnel on his resume, BH has now pushed and voted for scum. That HAS changed and you don't just get to come in and throw a vote down on BH without explaining why he does that as mderg's mafia partner. So I guess VE, besides all the points against you, something HAS changed. I have now pushed and voted for scum. You don't jsut get to come in and throw a vote down on BH without some explaining why I do that as mderg's mafia partner , in the words of a wise man. ##vote VisceraEyes
So i never even thought about that but YKZ how much do you think people will want to lynch you if we lynched VE and he turned town. This does not push the thread forward but I think it is interesting.
Also this reminded me that i think you were going to comment on my play or something to that effect. Are you still going to or do you have more time demanding things.
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On June 21 2014 08:48 VisceraEyes wrote:For someone who made a request of me to "get a read on me", BH seems to already be leaning fairly town on me. So why the appeal to emotion? And IF he thinks I'm town, what use is there for him to discredit me? Meh, questions for another day I suppose. I'll answer his questions, but for town and NOT for BH. BH is on my shitlist now. Indefinitely. Show nested quote +On June 21 2014 06:17 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 19 2014 20:40 VisceraEyes wrote:
Ready To Read BH Yet?
Meeeehhhhhhhhhhhhhh........................I think he might be mafia. He hasn't had any direct interactions with me due to timing and our respective AFK periods, but frankly the bunnies push felt contrived to begin with, and that he stuck with it only to see her flip green raises red flags to me. He makes a special point to say how GODLY he is at Mafia too, insinuating how BAD he is at town right? Sounds like preknowledge of his main target's flip to me. It's a weak read, but he's my worst read. I put it off because I was scurd, but now I might get lynched and it doesn't matter if I scurd anymore. I think he's mafia based on what's in the thread.
Does this accurately summarize your reason for scumreading me? Also, can you be specific about who you like and don't like on the wagons? Yes, it accurately summarizes my reasons for scumreading you. Specifically I like slOosh and Release on your wagon and I disliked Snickers and you on the mderg wagon. I'm not really reading Koshi as supertown yet which concerns me, but I dislike him less than I dislike you and Snickers.
Oh man please forgive me host and players I keep messing up probably because of how tired I am. Anyway i was trying to say I did not notice this fact but if VE would get lynched and showed town I think a lot of people would be on you YKZ.
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On June 23 2014 12:47 Snickers wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2014 12:33 YouKnowZhou wrote:tl;dr VE is scum, for reasons I outlined earlier. Let's lynch him. So, I made some noises (link) about the possibility of VE being town earlier. However, having taken a look a the facts, I do not believe the fact that VE backed off from me should significantly impact my read on him. I initially thought the backing-off may be deserving of a townread since a scum VE could potentially get me lynched with effort, and the "fake anger" strategy was working well. However, I believe I was selling short how good a job I had done of appearing co-operative. I had made it so even a scum VE would have to tone down the anger, would have to not ratchet things up and continue yelling at me. I'm going to refer to my end-of-day case here, so please read it: (link). VE has not since responded to it, and I'm going to address his semi-responses and cast a vote on VE. I'm also going to talk about the posts he has made since I made that post, at the very last moments of the night. The relevant part is here: On June 22 2014 08:59 YouKnowZhou wrote:3. VE should not be left off the hook. Remember, during the time when I was trying to get in a last set of reads (sorta) before getting lynched, when I was chipping in an we were having real discussion? Suddenly, VE is "angry" http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=33#651 and afks until right before the deadline. I explain how VE's actions during the last few hours of D2 are pretty clearly scum-motivated here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=38#758 . His response is here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=39#762Take a look at how he responds. He talks about sloosh looking good, and leaves out the fact that I have had to prod him multiple times over everything, doesn't address the fact that his reasoning was that he liked Sloosh and Release on my wagon, and disliked snickers and me on mderg: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=37#721Remember, later on, when VE is in the thread, Release, one of the two guys he likes, is on mderg, and Snickers, one of the guys he doesn't like, is on me. So, he changes his explantion to "sloosh was my rock", which is NOT the explanation he was using during the lynch (again, here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=37#721). It is, however, more convenient, just like VE's fake anger (until he got called out for it and realized I was being super reasonable), or VE's afking right after I start engaging my thread, up until riight before the deadline. In fact, it's also interesting that he tries to shut down snickers' posting here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=39#766but hey, dont' worry guys, after he gets called out, half an hour later VE says it was a joke. Of course, I don't see ANYTHING joking about that read at all, so I guess I'm missing something, but it's awfully convenient http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=22411055. Also, note that VE was pretending to be mad at me up until he realized it was looking bad, then decided to stop being mad at me just long enough to address the case I made against him. All these convenient afks, fake anger, and convenient "jokes" telling people to stop engaging the thread are all things that VE has tried to brush off, but this coupled with VE's low contribution amount this game (don't look at his filter size-- even though he has 3 pages he has spent a lot of it being afk or pretending to be mad at me) it's basically clear he's scum. First off, let's look at VE's "last minute" post. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=828&topic_id=458796This post, in which VE asks for a vigi shot, is in the very very last second of the night. I tried to make my post at the very last second before the deadline, but VE actually slipped this in between my post and the deadline. Now, you may think, "it makes sense for VE to ask to be shot. After all, maybe he's worried he'd get lynched as a townie and doesn't want to waste town's time". That's true, but look at the timing; there's absolutely no way that VE is going to get shot when he posts at that time, when it's too late for anyone to do anything. So what's the purpose? I can't find one other than "it makes VE look a tiny bit better", but honestly it's so see-through that the only thing I can think of is that VE is just trying to make noises that he thinks a townie would make, and he screwed up. Who asks for a vigi shot when it's too late for vigis to shoot? Remember, ve was in the thread about 10 minutes earlier (link) as well as throughout the night, he had plenty of time to ask for a shot and he didn't until it would make no difference. Next, VE retcons (link) how he was feeling about mderg during D2. It's true, VE made a scumread on mderg, but who was VE voting, even when his stated reasons for voting changed conditions? It was me, not mderg. Ve made all the noises about wanting to lynch mderg, and he even said that he liked Sloosh and Release on my wagon, and he wasn't voting mderg because Snickers and I were voting mderg. (link). Then, when release votes mderg and snickers votes ykz, VE stands by his vote. Remember, it was "2 townreads on the ykz wagon, 2 scumreads on the mderg wagon, that's my main reason here." When one of his townreads votes for mderg and one of his scumreads votes for me, what's the deal then VE? This has never adequately been explained, except when he changes his explantion to "sloosh was my rock", which is NOT the explanation he was using during the lynch (again, here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/458796-normal-mini-mafia-lvi?page=37#721). So, VE made a lot of NOISE about being fine about the mderg wagon. I totally agree with him that he certainly liked to WRITE that he was fine about the mderg wagon. He definitely made up reasons that he voted me over mderg. But when those conditions changed, and his reasons didn't make sense any more, he didn't swap to mderg, or even try to re-evaluate. No, instead he "got mad" at me (link) and "happened" to be afk during the crucial time leading up to the lynch. But enough about D2; let's talk about D3. VE lays out his scumreads for today, which are me and Sloosh he says he's conflicted, and his heart says bh and his head says sloosh (link). He then asks for help. He doesn't have questions, he doesn't have cases to write. He doesn't ask me to clarify anything (Despite apparently now being cool with cooperating with me) and he doesn't try to address sloosh in any way. When artanis replies, VE responds by quoting his nk speculation in which he's telling me he's "giving me a pass" for D3. (link). This is in contradiction with his previous post, but I consider this contradiction to be a towntell rather than a scumtell. The issue with this post isn't that he contradicts himself (townies often do this) but that when someone offers an opinion, he just drops a quote and doesn't press on. Then, he just says "chez ur on the table today" (link) and it's like fairly clear at this point VE is just trying to figure out which way the wind is blowing. I'm amazed he hasn't made a koshi case yet . So here's where things get interesting. He's back onto the "gk kill means something" train (link) and trying to give himself credit for the mderg lynch again, but look at what he says about GK specifically On June 22 2014 10:17 VisceraEyes wrote:
This was the post that solidified my read on mderg - he mentioned something I also noticed (and mentioned actually) and he ended up dying in the night. However beyond this you're right, at the end of the day he ended up on the "mderg town" side of things. :/
Frankly the only thing I can see GK being killed for is either a busted role-hunt or to implicate me somehow (he ended up scummy on me at the end of the day). Good to know. At this point, VE is not in fact looking at GK's post and trying to evaluate it for merit. He's not saying "i'm gonna read this case or post with fresh eyes, as though GK were still alive, since GK was shot and is conftown". Instead, he's focusing his opinion on the scum part of the thing, the fact that GK was killed. GK could be killed for all kinds of reasons, and it can be valuable to speculate about it at times, but look at VE here. He's not using dead GK as some kind of resource to read, looking at the cases and posts like someone who's townie would. Instead of looking for GK's logic, his mind goes to reasons scum would shoot GK. I consider this to be a minor point in comparison to the end-of-D2 stuff. But it's a point. Buddying me (link) but more importantly an attack on sloosh. Why defend a scumread, VE? He defends himself, but not against my case (link). The taking credit thing is clever and annoying but not on its own an issue. It's really wroth noting that the 2nd post, about original posts, is spot-on. During D2 VE is mostly just chucking out rando reads without following them up, probably looking to see what sticks before writing a case. After losing his partner, VE wants to not overstep his leadership, which means toning down the nasty and buddying with me, and being like water and changing his shape to fill the container. As I wrote this post, he decides to vote me and of course does not write or reference a case: (link)On June 23 2014 12:16 VisceraEyes wrote:
slOosh do you still think BH is mafia? Release does. And I think I'm rescinding his pass for his BS last night.
##Vote: YouKnowZhou I'll just leave that post in which VE votes me with no explanation, next to this quote from VE just 10 hours earlier: On June 23 2014 02:42 VisceraEyes wrote:On June 22 2014 17:45 slOosh wrote:
Righto. Nothings changed. Any questions? I'm an open book.
##Vote YouKnowZhou This isn't true at all, something HAS changed. THIS cycle instead of having only one townie tunnel on his resume, BH has now pushed and voted for scum. That HAS changed and you don't just get to come in and throw a vote down on BH without explaining why he does that as mderg's mafia partner. So I guess VE, besides all the points against you, something HAS changed. I have now pushed and voted for scum. You don't jsut get to come in and throw a vote down on BH without some explaining why I do that as mderg's mafia partner , in the words of a wise man. ##vote VisceraEyes So i never even thought about that but YKZ how much do you think people will want to lynch you if we lynched VE and he turned town. This does not push the thread forward but I think it is interesting. Also this reminded me that i think you were going to comment on my play or something to that effect. Are you still going to or do you have more time demanding things.
I can comment on your play if you'd like. I think you're putting effort in and are not my #1 scumread so I have very little interest in lynching you today.
I don't care one whit how I look if I'm wrong, I'm lynching who I think is scum, and that's VE. If I lynch anyone else, I'm much less likely to hit scum. So, not relevant for 2 reasons, both of which are "my goal is to lynch scum, not appease dumb townies and opportunistic scum"
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On June 23 2014 12:16 VisceraEyes wrote:
slOosh do you still think BH is mafia? Release does. And I think I'm rescinding his pass for his BS last night.
##Vote: YouKnowZhou
Uhh yes? Don't know what would make you think otherwise.
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YKZ could I ask who your #2 scumread is?
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You know I love you. It's sad that you neglected to mention how VE had been spreading the lie that there were only 2 mafia this game. It is like he was saying that to cope with only have two active mafia and I thought I only trolled the hosts.
I cannot wait until the cop reveals that rolecheck from last night. Are you as excited as I am Koshi?
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On June 23 2014 07:43 slOosh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2014 07:27 YouKnowZhou wrote:On June 23 2014 07:17 slOosh wrote:
So Lazer, mderg started N1 / D2 with scum reads on VE and Snickers, and that's what he went with. Could you explain your interpretation of this scum strategies? I've been having some trouble articulating my thoughts on this as well. So, when I do association, I try in general to do it the other way. If we look at flipped scum mderg, here's what we see: It's noteworthy that mderg scumreads VE (link) and votes him, and only votes me when it's clear only mderg or I can be lynched D2. That being said, in my opinion the most valuable associative tells are not based on what the flipped mafia did, but what other people did TO the flipped mafia before the flip. As I have mentioned before (link), this is a much more valuable form of information. The dying scum's goal is typically to throw off town and make it difficult to find his allies after he flips. this isn't to say there isn't info to be gained from mderg's filter, but the info to be gained from how other people interacted with him is much greater, in general. This is only true when the scum anticipates dying. mderg's vote against VE came early D2.
It's categorically true as the correct way to read associative tells. You read what the people wrote about the flipped scum, not what the flipped scum wrote about people, because the quality of info is higher. You will read lots of townie opinions about the flipped scum, which aren't intentionally deceptive, rather than a bunch of opinions that are intended to mislead.
I ALWAYS (take a look at my link in the quoted post) read what people wrote about the lynched scum, rather than vice versa. This is because this is the most reliable form of info and leads to good scumreads. What mderg said is dust; words are wind. Look at what was said ABOUT mderg.
On June 23 2014 07:45 slOosh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2014 07:34 Lazermonkey wrote:On June 23 2014 07:17 slOosh wrote:
So Lazer, mderg started N1 / D2 with scum reads on VE and Snickers, and that's what he went with. Could you explain your interpretation of this scum strategies? I'm not scum so I can obviously just guess here. I have already explained why I don't think its very unlikely that VE and mderg were scum bros. And why is Snickers even relevant here? He was suspected by many during D1-D2. It was one directional, it that you explained why VE's actions fit a VE mderg scum team. I'm asking how mderg's actions, namely voting VE, makes sense in a VE mderg scum team.
So the one-directionality of LM's analysis here is a feature, not a bug. Do you understand what i'm getting at here, and why my method of using associative tells has a much lower error rate?
On June 23 2014 13:24 slOosh wrote:
YKZ could I ask who your #2 scumread is?
Yes. However, I am pretty unwilling to vote ANYONE but VE. I am not interested in discussing my secondary scumreads except to appear helpful to other townies and not get lynched, and to encourage them to read the VE case. I am writing this response
Here is my response: the vast majority of my attention is on VE, and nobody else is close to VE in terms of how scumy I think them. I wouldn't mind lynching snicks for some of the shit he did D2, but he has been writing a large amount of text so I'm going to evaluate how he is going forwards. I'm vaguely aware I ought to get around to making a serious read on Koshi, but I can't imagine what I could read that would be even a tiny bit more convincing than what I've seen from VE. If people post more cases I'll pay attention and see if I find anything convincing, but I anticipatOn June 23 2014 13:24 slOosh wrote:
YKZ could I ask who your #2 scumread is?
Yes. However, I am pretty unwilling to vote ANYONE but VE. I am not interested in discussing my secondary scumreads except to appear helpful to other townies and not get lynched, and to encourage them to read the VE case. I am writing this response to you because I want you to take a look at my case against VE and analyze it critically and put serious effort into it. I get that you're voting me, whatever. Just respond to my case in more detail than you have, and you will ensure my co-operation for the rest of the day. Listen to me, read what I have to say, and respond.
I'm assuming you accept my terms. Here is my response: the vast majority of my attention is on VE, and nobody else is close to VE in terms of how scumy I think them. I wouldn't mind lynching snicks for some of the shit he did D2, but he has been writing a large amount of text so I'm going to evaluate how he is going forwards. I'm vaguely aware I ought to get around to making a serious read on Koshi, but I can't imagine what I could read that would be even a tiny bit more convincing than what I've seen from VE. If people post more cases I'll pay attention and see if I find anything convincing, but I anticipate nothing will get me to move off VE. I'd say, snicks, for reasons related to D2, and then maybe Koshi, in terms of reads that aren't VE. e nothing will get me to move off VE. I'd say, snicks, for reasons related to D2, and then maybe Koshi, in terms of reads that aren't VE. Niether is a good lynch today.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On June 23 2014 13:35 Chezinu wrote:
You know I love you. It's sad that you neglected to mention how VE had been spreading the lie that there were only 2 mafia this game. It is like he was saying that to cope with only have two active mafia and I thought I only trolled the hosts.
I cannot wait until the cop reveals that rolecheck from last night. Are you as excited as I am Koshi?
Eh, any kind of "slip" is as llikely to come from town as scum, if not more, so I don't think it's relevant to my case. Thank you, though, for your attempt at helping.
As a VT, it's not my position to judge when blues should claim. I don't have the info they do. Generally they should claim to avert a mislynch or if they have a red check, but honestly ball is in their court for that judgement. I just hope they have appropriately crumbed any checks in case they get shot.
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On June 23 2014 13:35 Chezinu wrote:
You know I love you. It's sad that you neglected to mention how VE had been spreading the lie that there were only 2 mafia this game. It is like he was saying that to cope with only have two active mafia and I thought I only trolled the hosts.
I cannot wait until the cop reveals that rolecheck from last night. Are you as excited as I am Koshi?
Eh, any kind of "slip" is as llikely to come from town as scum, if not more, so I don't think it's relevant to my case. Thank you, though, for your attempt at helping.
As a VT, it's not my position to judge when blues should claim. I don't have the info they do. Generally they should claim to avert a mislynch or if they have a red check, but honestly ball is in their court for that judgement. I just hope they have appropriately crumbed any checks in case they get shot.
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YKZ if you have time, what is your view on goodkarma being killed? Is there actual information that it gives or is the information such a long shot, that it is not worth evaluating compared to what people post in the thread. If it does give information can you comment on it.
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On June 23 2014 14:01 Snickers wrote:
YKZ if you have time, what is your view on goodkarma being killed? Is there actual information that it gives or is the information such a long shot, that it is not worth evaluating compared to what people post in the thread. If it does give information can you comment on it.
I'm glad to weigh in, though I'm afraid I don't have a lot to add to what has been said, so I'll just clarify what I believe so that people know.
I basically have no thoughts on gk being killed. Maybe it was a bluesnipe, maybe it was because he and I have a pyschic link where we spare each other in games, or maybe it's cause people thought he was town and he was an unlikely protect target. Since it's possible he was killed for his reads, it is prudent to examine his filter.
Highlights are: he knows I'm BH since we are connected, he calls release and me scummy and votes me. he criticizes me. I reach out to him with my Words and he relents. He briefly questions Release, implying he htinks release is scum. he votes 27nb.
Then, during the endgame shenannies, he goes after VE. he says:
On June 18 2014 08:32 goodkarma wrote:
##Vote: VE
It's pretty clear he's not interested in keeping up with this game and is spewing whatever comes off the top of his head. Not clearly scum-aligned thought process, but a clear liability. And there's also that he lied about his history, which is pretty durned scummy.
Then he swaps to 27nb when VE isn't a real option, and calls 27nb and mderg both "bad lynches"
So, what do I make of this? Well, first off,
I would be surprised if scum shot gk for his reads, because he was defending mderg, who was scum, even though VE is probably scum GK attacked him, which means gk was wrong on at least one serious read
gk's case on VE came from a townie. the historical lies and top of the head stuff aligns iwth how VE was playing today. I'm not saying gk was shot for this case, because the shot clearly wasn't based on his reads. I'm saying that whatever you can say about GK's case against VE, you can at least say this: he meant it and was honest, as he is modconfirmed town.
And honestly, reading that little snippet, that could be written about VE's action today, couldn't it? the wisdom of GK speaks to us even in his death.
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On June 18 2014 09:06 goodkarma wrote:
Yeah. I'm done for a spell. Take note of the people who afk'ed that last hour. Those are the ones who deserve the most scrutiny.
We should honor this and look into it. Also goodkarma talks about VE being wishy washy. I do not know if this is common or not but i read a whole mafia game before this one. I specifically saw contined wishy washy posts from a mafia player. I thought mderg was wishy washy and I think i mentioned some wishy washy posts from VE's filter. So I think wishy washy is a good way to find scum. Lazer Monkey disagreed with the way(i forgot what we were calling it) that i suspected mderg.
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On June 23 2014 12:23 Snickers wrote:
Release can you comment on Lazer Monkey's posting? I think somebody already did but I would like to hear your thoughts.
Also when you say "guys" whoever else thought that Sloosh was mafia. That seems really suspicious.
Also Release can you comment on the goodkarma kill? Do you even think it has merit?
See above, and if you are too lazy, I feel like he's grasping at straws, casting suspicion and trying to see what sticks.
I thought Artanis commented earlier but I just wanted to catchall. Think of it what you will.
I think the goodkarma kill was to kill someone not involved in controversy/chaos, a situation in which the majority of the us were.
He attacked me and YKZ early in the day before focusing on VE. At that point, he hadn't said too much except this On June 18 2014 08:32 goodkarma wrote:
##Vote: VE
It's pretty clear he's not interested in keeping up with this game and is spewing whatever comes off the top of his head. Not clearly scum-aligned thought process, but a clear liability. And there's also that he lied about his history, which is pretty durned scummy. . There is the possibility that mafia silenced him before he could say more, but I'm more inclined to believe the first sentence in this paragraph.
And for a note: I'm reading VE similarly to mderg, in that I feel his posts are somewhat suspicious but understandable in accordance with a town agenda. Also, the blatant meaning of his words do not nearly indicate as much mafia as mderg's did.
Yeah and I'll leave this here until something new comes up:
##Vote Lazermonkey
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On June 23 2014 14:49 Release wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2014 12:23 Snickers wrote:
Release can you comment on Lazer Monkey's posting? I think somebody already did but I would like to hear your thoughts.
Also when you say "guys" whoever else thought that Sloosh was mafia. That seems really suspicious.
Also Release can you comment on the goodkarma kill? Do you even think it has merit?
See above, and if you are too lazy, I feel like he's grasping at straws, casting suspicion and trying to see what sticks. I thought Artanis commented earlier but I just wanted to catchall. Think of it what you will. I think the goodkarma kill was to kill someone not involved in controversy/chaos, a situation in which the majority of the us were. He attacked me and YKZ early in the day before focusing on VE. At that point, he hadn't said too much except this Show nested quote +On June 18 2014 08:32 goodkarma wrote:
##Vote: VE
It's pretty clear he's not interested in keeping up with this game and is spewing whatever comes off the top of his head. Not clearly scum-aligned thought process, but a clear liability. And there's also that he lied about his history, which is pretty durned scummy. . There is the possibility that mafia silenced him before he could say more, but I'm more inclined to believe the first sentence in this paragraph. And for a note: I'm reading VE similarly to mderg, in that I feel his posts are somewhat suspicious but understandable in accordance with a town agenda. Also, the blatant meaning of his words do not nearly indicate as much mafia as mderg's did. Yeah and I'll leave this here until something new comes up: ##Vote Lazermonkey
Given that GK spoke out strongly in defense of mderg, it's highly unlikely he was shot because of his reads, since one of them was obviously wrong. That doesn't mean he was wrong on VE, however. The points he makes in that post are factually accurate, and we also know that his motives were pure.
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Absolutely. But it's not a particularly strong read nor is it necessarily correct as to VE's alignment. His "clear liability" has held, but mafia and therefore worthy of a vote? I don't believe so at this moment.
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On June 23 2014 14:49 Release wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2014 12:23 Snickers wrote:
Release can you comment on Lazer Monkey's posting? I think somebody already did but I would like to hear your thoughts.
Also when you say "guys" whoever else thought that Sloosh was mafia. That seems really suspicious.
Also Release can you comment on the goodkarma kill? Do you even think it has merit?
See above, and if you are too lazy, I feel like he's grasping at straws, casting suspicion and trying to see what sticks.
I thought Artanis commented earlier but I just wanted to catchall. Think of it what you will.I think the goodkarma kill was to kill someone not involved in controversy/chaos, a situation in which the majority of the us were. He attacked me and YKZ early in the day before focusing on VE. At that point, he hadn't said too much except this Show nested quote +On June 18 2014 08:32 goodkarma wrote:
##Vote: VE
It's pretty clear he's not interested in keeping up with this game and is spewing whatever comes off the top of his head. Not clearly scum-aligned thought process, but a clear liability. And there's also that he lied about his history, which is pretty durned scummy. . There is the possibility that mafia silenced him before he could say more, but I'm more inclined to believe the first sentence in this paragraph. And for a note: I'm reading VE similarly to mderg, in that I feel his posts are somewhat suspicious but understandable in accordance with a town agenda. Also, the blatant meaning of his words do not nearly indicate as much mafia as mderg's did. Yeah and I'll leave this here until something new comes up: ##Vote Lazermonkey
Are you saying the bold is scummy because I do not really see it. Am i casting suspicion on you or on LazerMonkey?
If you want the truth to why I asked that i will tell you but I would rather wait till after the lynch since I think VE is getting it.
I will tell you why I asked the goodkarma thing though. I think you are a good player (as in knowledgeable not alignment) after reading multiple peoples' filters.
Also I will read your filter to see where this LazerMonkey vote came from. I think I remember something about his votes day two being brought up.
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I am saying Lazer, not you, is the one "grasping...sticks."
Read the spoiler for my answer + Show Spoiler [answer] +for all the reasons that I've stated in my past few posts. But also, there are only two mafia left. I am pretty sure those two are Lazer and YKZ. YKZ has done a much better second half of D3 so far and as long as he discusses, he (as mafia) is more valuable to us than Lazer who has done pretty much nothing imo.
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On June 23 2014 15:01 Release wrote:
Absolutely. But it's not a particularly strong read nor is it necessarily correct as to VE's alignment. His "clear liability" has held, but mafia and therefore worthy of a vote? I don't believe so at this moment.
I'd like to talk to you about your read on VE. you said early on that his lurkiness was bad, but not as bad as mine (link) and mid day 2 you say his activity indicates otherwise (otherwise what?) and that he's generating discusison, then you ask for opinions on him and never follow up (link)
At the end of Night 2, you said VE is climbing back into your suspicious territory, where he apparently always lives (link) and you ask Snickers to look into him (because you think VE is scum? this isn't clear to me) (link). You defend VE from lazer and note that lazer is a more serious candidate than VE (though now I'm pretty sure Ve is leading in the votes) (link). Lastly, you finish by saying you read him similar to mderg, who flipped scum, but then you say in the same para that VE isn't as mafia as mderg, and vote Lazermo (link).
So I guess my question is, can you give me a straight read on VE? He has always been "scummy" or "risinginly scummy" in your book, and you ask people about him a lot, but you never write a concrete case against him, or even interrogate him seriously. What's going on here, Release? what do you really think of VE?
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EPT
