EPTUkraine Crisis - Page 58
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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hunts
United States2113 Posts
On February 23 2014 01:31 cSc.Dav1oN wrote: Luckily there are few users on TL that knows russian/ukraininan/english I can speak it fine, but can't read/write, and when/where I was growing up russian was the only language being used as far as I know, the only people I heard speak ukranian were the elderly. I heard though that Ukranian is being used more now, is that true? | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3941 Posts
On February 23 2014 01:42 Cheerio wrote: Well that's the problem with revolutions, they are against the law, but that doesn't mean they are undemocratic. Another problem with revolutions: They rarely respect territorial integrity. | ||
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Dav1oN
Ukraine3163 Posts
On February 23 2014 01:50 hunts wrote: I can speak it fine, but can't read/write, and when/where I was growing up russian was the only language being used as far as I know, the only people I heard speak ukranian were the elderly. I heard though that Ukranian is being used more now, is that true? Depends of region and size of town/city, although 99% of population understand russian/ukrainian pretty easily and it doesn't matter personally for me what language to use, i'm fine with both. But ukrainian is in use more oftenly on west, and russian on east. Russian-Ukrainian-Belarus languages are pretty similar, Polish is also very well understanable if u knows ukrainian aswell | ||
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Sent.
Poland9084 Posts
Obviously Poland still supports the opposition but Ukrainians are making it really hard. Polish diplomacy is confused and tries to salvage the situation but I don't know if it's even possible now. Sikorski tweeted 2 hours ago that Yanukovich has 24 hours to approve the restoration of Constitution from 2004. I don't belive it will happen. I'm very disappointed with Ukrainian opposition. I hope they won't drag their country into civil war or "friendly" help from Russia. | ||
Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On February 23 2014 02:03 Sent. wrote: [..] and I'm convinced that EU is not happy with current events.[..] I don't know what you're talking about. The EU actually is really happy with how it turned out, and the current deal was primarily negotiated with the help of the French, Polish and German foreign ministers. Yanukovych is on the run, the bloodshed has stopped, and the people have a very good chance of getting a better leader now. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9084 Posts
On February 23 2014 02:10 Nyxisto wrote: I don't know what you're talking about. The EU actually is really happy with how it turned out, and the current deal was primarily negotiated with the help of the French, Polish and German foreign ministers. Yanukovych is on the run, the bloodshed has stopped, and the people have a very good chance of getting a better leader now. Was removing Yanukovich part of that deal? Russian foreign ministry says it wasn't. | ||
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Derez
Netherlands6068 Posts
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Roman666
Poland1440 Posts
On February 23 2014 02:12 Sent. wrote: Was removing Yanukovich part of that deal? Russian foreign ministry says it wasn't. Well it was not, at least not on that short notice. However our FM was always saying that it is up to Ukraine to reform itself. If this is the way they want to go, it is their business. EDIT: Also Russian envoy did not sign the agreement as a witness, so what kind of credibility Russia has now, picking on the agreement which it did not sign? | ||
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radiatoren
Denmark1907 Posts
On February 23 2014 02:19 Derez wrote: Can only hope that the ukrainians actually elect someone better and not revert to tymoshenko who's corrupt as hell too.. Who do you propose? Tyahnybok is obviously too extreme. Klitschko has lived for too long in Germany to be that relevant (law says 10 years of residence in Ukraine to qualify, but Vitaly has been living a lot of the time in Germany). Yushenko is the last real candidate and he is very dirty too. Dismissing judges in the constitutional court to avoid having a law rejected and firing governors for supporting Tymochenko + he supported Yanukovych in that election. Edit: Forgot Yatsenyuk. | ||
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MyrMindservant
695 Posts
On February 23 2014 02:34 radiatoren wrote: I don't know the details, but it looks like Klitschko will be able to take part in the upcoming elections. Or at least he said that he has the intention to do so.Who do you propose? Tyahnybok is obviously too extreme. Klitschko has lived for too long in Germany to be that relevant (law says 10 years of residence in Ukraine to qualify, but Vitaly has been living a lot of the time in Germany). Yushenko is the last real candidate and he is very dirty too. Dismissing judges in the constitutional court to avoid having a law rejected and firing governors for supporting Tymochenko + he supported Yanukovych in that election. | ||
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Roman666
Poland1440 Posts
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Liman
Serbia681 Posts
On February 23 2014 00:47 mahrgell wrote: Even if the protesters are a majority by now, demanding 110% and leaving your opponent with nothing, when your opponent still has significant backing in the whole eastern ukraine won't help the country... And if every compromise is thrown away after half a day, then you can hardly blame yanukovitch for 'not willing to negotiate' edit: I'm btw (of course, as a euopean) favoring the protesters... But what they have shown lately really reduced my support for them... If there is nothing stopping them but total victory, it is clear, that they didn't understand the idea of democracy either... And long term this total victory they are aiming for will just throw back ukraine as much as yanukovich did... And will certainly not bring them closer to europe  Have fun ending like turkey... Always part of all military alliances, but no chance to get into the EU...Very well said. If they are not ready for compromise how will they deal with almost half of the country (remember that is around 20 million people) which is pro russian? What will they do when those people say : "no we dont want to enter NATO and we dont want to get in EU". As i know in most European parlaments two thirds is needed for a clear majority. There is no clear political majority in Ukraine. You cant have small majority telling the rest of people how to live,that can only lead to conflict. | ||
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BeaTeR
Kazakhstan4129 Posts
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zeo
Serbia6262 Posts
On February 23 2014 01:25 hunts wrote: I'm glad at least things are slowly going in the right direction. I was born in ukraine and lived in dnepropitrovsk until I was 8, when we moved to america, makes me very sad that it seems since then things have only been going downhill for ukraine. Unfortunately I also can't help with translating news as I forgot how to read/write russian a long time ago. Things don't seem to be going in the right direction at all... The leaders of the strongest opposition parties in the country that actually started the protest in the first place have absolutely no control over the rioters. The blatantly stupid action of signing an agreement they can not enforce just goes to prove what we have known for weeks now, anti-civilization, far-right, borderline-fascist and fascist groups control maiden. The president honored his side of the agreement and withdrew the police from the streets which the fascists used to take control of the city and parliament. A parliament taken over by bandits is now illegalizing any form of resistance to banditry and releasing a convicted criminal who is not only (one of) the most corrupt politician in the country, but also tried to have her business rivals liquidated. Chief Rabbi of Ukraine urged Jews to leave Kiev, joining the exodus of people fleeing western cities into the east of the country caused by food shortages and the horrific security situation. In the absence of any kind of rule of law the east of the country has taken the sovereignty of the nation into its own hands. Forming armed anti-fascist citizen groups to protect the people of the regions from the black hole forming in the west. I don't see how Ukraine is slowly moving in the right direction. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On February 23 2014 02:12 Sent. wrote: Was removing Yanukovich part of that deal? Russian foreign ministry says it wasn't. Well if the Russian foreign ministry says so it must be true  I think that Yanukovych had to go was pretty much a given. It was the one key thing the opposition was fighting for and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have agreed to any solution that invovles Yanukovych as head of state. | ||
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radiatoren
Denmark1907 Posts
I don't know what happens if presidential powers are reverted to 2004 standards though, but it seems the parliament has jumped the gun and rushed a lot of repeals without assuring the necessary signatures. Democracy at work is not what is happening at the moment. It is rather disturbing to see how much chaos is happening. A coup d'Etat as Yanukovych described it seems accurate. A solution with a little legitimacy would be holding an election under current laws, let the winner change the laws and immediately start a new election. I doubt that will happen, though. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9084 Posts
On February 23 2014 03:26 Nyxisto wrote: Well if the Russian foreign ministry says so it must be true I think that Yanukovych had to go was pretty much a given. It was the one key thing the opposition was fighting for and I'm pretty sure they wouldn't have agreed to any solution that invovles Yanukovych as head of state.Firstly it was a part of an official statement of Russian foreign ministry so if that was a lie, EU would already point this out. Secondly do you honestly think that Yanukovich would sign anything that makes him wait for parliament to remove him from office and forbids him to leave the country without any safety guarantee? | ||
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mahrgell
Germany3941 Posts
Nope... you won't. Especially not, if you elect Tymoshenko! I don't think, Klitchko is a good politician (he has now experience at all, flipflops like hell, and unable to lead properly...), but with him there may be a small chance due to his contacts and he still has a clear record at least... | ||
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Dav1oN
Ukraine3163 Posts
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