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Ukraine Crisis - Page 57

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There is a new policy in effect in this thread. Anyone not complying will be moderated.

New policy, please read before posting:
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mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
February 22 2014 15:34 GMT
#1121
so the parliament decides to ignore all the results of the negotiations 2 days ago led by the EU foreign ministers?
That is surely a good base for trust in future relations, if there is a power change now
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
February 22 2014 15:34 GMT
#1122
On February 23 2014 00:24 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Yanukovich is no more a president, Verkhovna Rada voted for resignation

Слава Україні!
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
February 22 2014 15:36 GMT
#1123
On February 23 2014 00:34 mahrgell wrote:
so the parliament decides to ignore all the results of the negotiations 2 days ago led by the EU foreign ministers?
That is surely a good base for trust in future relations, if there is a power change now

Yanukovich was bluffing, he was basically blackmailing everyone with more casualties to keep his seat. EU and opposition bought that, but people of Ukraine didn't.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22675 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-22 15:46:18
February 22 2014 15:44 GMT
#1124
On February 23 2014 00:36 Cheerio wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2014 00:34 mahrgell wrote:
so the parliament decides to ignore all the results of the negotiations 2 days ago led by the EU foreign ministers?
That is surely a good base for trust in future relations, if there is a power change now

Yanukovich was bluffing, he was basically blackmailing everyone with more casualties to keep his seat. EU and opposition bought that, but people of Ukraine didn't.

Hm i feeling saying the EU/Opposition bought it is a little harsh. Deals like this need a level of trust. You cant expect those reforms to be done instantly.
The people and the politicians both sat back and waited to see the reforms come in.

The real question is what else can they do. They cannot directly intervene unless things get really really out of hand and until then all they can do is say Yanukovich is a bad boy.

Edit:
I doubt Yanukovich is threatening more blood in these negotiations. If he commits a bloodbath he gives the EU a valid reason to launch a military intervention. Assuming the military doesn't just say "enough is enough" and intervenes themselves.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-22 15:50:15
February 22 2014 15:47 GMT
#1125
Even if the protesters are a majority by now, demanding 110% and leaving your opponent with nothing, when your opponent still has significant backing in the whole eastern ukraine won't help the country...
And if every compromise is thrown away after half a day, then you can hardly blame yanukovitch for 'not willing to negotiate'

edit: I'm btw (of course, as a euopean) favoring the protesters... But what they have shown lately really reduced my support for them... If there is nothing stopping them but total victory, it is clear, that they didn't understand the idea of democracy either... And long term this total victory they are aiming for will just throw back ukraine as much as yanukovich did... And will certainly not bring them closer to europe Have fun ending like turkey... Always part of all military alliances, but no chance to get into the EU...
MyrMindservant
Profile Joined October 2013
695 Posts
February 22 2014 15:47 GMT
#1126
On February 22 2014 23:02 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 22 2014 17:35 MyrMindservant wrote:
On February 22 2014 07:31 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
On February 22 2014 07:15 Cheerio wrote:
On February 22 2014 07:07 cSc.Dav1oN wrote:
Did anyone mentioned drugs in a free tea for riots? Basicly most of those riots don't even know what kind of tea they drunk

oh shut up.


See why u're insane?
He has a very good reason to be angry/mad. What you just said is a pile of bullshit that anyone who was at Maidan can disprove. What's worse, it's an old bullshit. Do you remember "Orange revolution"? The very same lies were also spread during it, but there was exactly zero proofs to back it up.
The same story is repeating now, and just like then it is nothing more than a silly scarecrow for those who don't know what is actually happening in Kiev and can't personally meat people who are standing at Maidan.


Ofc I've got more reasons to belive ur words instead of words of my friend living in Kiev, and that happened to her 62 years old neighbour...Stop it
Every place (city, region, etc) has people who believe what they are being told by tv, or other "reliable" sources without putting some effort to confirm it.
Although, maybe your fried was talking about other kind of rioters, aka titushki. Then I won't be surprised if it's true.

Anyhow, you can believe whatever you want, it's your choice. Just please, consider this a personal plea, don't spread such rumors if you can't check them yourself.

On February 23 2014 00:34 mahrgell wrote:
so the parliament decides to ignore all the results of the negotiations 2 days ago led by the EU foreign ministers?
That is surely a good base for trust in future relations, if there is a power change now

Yanukovich is the one who started to ignore everything. Many thing have happened today, very many. Ministers of foreign affairs from Poland, Germany and France are currently in Kiev, in Verkhovna Rada (Ukrainian parliament). They knew about the upcoming vote for presidential resignation and didn't mind it.
Please don't take things out of context.
BoxeR, FanTaSy, Jaedong, Life | White-Ra | Moon || Na'Vi, Wings || ༼ᕤ $◡$ ༽ᕤ MIDAS HIM
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22675 Posts
February 22 2014 15:51 GMT
#1127
On February 23 2014 00:47 mahrgell wrote:
Even if the protesters are a majority by now, demanding 110% and leaving your opponent with nothing, when your opponent still has significant backing in the whole eastern ukraine won't help the country...
And if every compromise is thrown away after half a day, then you can hardly blame yanukovitch for 'not willing to negotiate'

Lets not forgot what happened yesterday.
If these terms had been agreed on weeks ago they would have been accepted.
Since then the protest has been declared illegal and been harassed.
Since then police has opened fire on innocent civilians.

At some point the line is crossed and the only acceptable outcome is the immediate and unconditional removal of those responsible. Which includes Yanukovich since the buck stops at him.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
February 22 2014 15:54 GMT
#1128
On February 23 2014 00:47 MyrMindservant wrote:

Show nested quote +
On February 23 2014 00:34 mahrgell wrote:
so the parliament decides to ignore all the results of the negotiations 2 days ago led by the EU foreign ministers?
That is surely a good base for trust in future relations, if there is a power change now

Yanukovich is the one who started to ignore everything. Many thing have happened today, very many. Ministers of foreign affairs from Poland, Germany and France are currently in Kiev, in Verkhovna Rada (Ukrainian parliament). They knew about the upcoming vote for presidential resignation and didn't mind it.
Please don't take things out of context.


Ah, they did? Nope... At least the german minister had clearly stated today in german interviews, that the results of the negotiations have to be put in effect...
He adressed both sides with that... yanukovitch has to sign the return to the old constitution and the protesters not to overshoot it...
And what is happening right now is certainly not part of those negotiations...
MyrMindservant
Profile Joined October 2013
695 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-22 15:58:49
February 22 2014 15:57 GMT
#1129
On February 23 2014 00:44 Gorsameth wrote:
Hm i feeling saying the EU/Opposition bought it is a little harsh. Deals like this need a level of trust. You cant expect those reforms to be done instantly.
The people and the politicians both sat back and waited to see the reforms come in.

The real question is what else can they do. They cannot directly intervene unless things get really really out of hand and until then all they can do is say Yanukovich is a bad boy.

Edit:
I doubt Yanukovich is threatening more blood in these negotiations. If he commits a bloodbath he gives the EU a valid reason to launch a military intervention. Assuming the military doesn't just say "enough is enough" and intervenes themselves.
You probably have no idea who yanukovich is. He doesn't deserve any trust. Especially not after what was found in his residence today (he hastily fled from Kiev yesterday at evening).
And yes, he can and most probably did threaten other negotiators. He hardly have anything to lose in Ukraine now, press now has enough evidences to put him in jail till the end of his life, or execute if only it would be legal in Ukraine.
BoxeR, FanTaSy, Jaedong, Life | White-Ra | Moon || Na'Vi, Wings || ༼ᕤ $◡$ ༽ᕤ MIDAS HIM
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22675 Posts
February 22 2014 16:02 GMT
#1130
On February 23 2014 00:57 MyrMindservant wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2014 00:44 Gorsameth wrote:
Hm i feeling saying the EU/Opposition bought it is a little harsh. Deals like this need a level of trust. You cant expect those reforms to be done instantly.
The people and the politicians both sat back and waited to see the reforms come in.

The real question is what else can they do. They cannot directly intervene unless things get really really out of hand and until then all they can do is say Yanukovich is a bad boy.

Edit:
I doubt Yanukovich is threatening more blood in these negotiations. If he commits a bloodbath he gives the EU a valid reason to launch a military intervention. Assuming the military doesn't just say "enough is enough" and intervenes themselves.
You probably have no idea who yanukovich is. He doesn't deserve any trust. Especially not after what was found in his residence today (he hastily fled from Kiev yesterday at evening).
And yes, he can and most probably did threaten other negotiators. He hardly have anything to lose in Ukraine now, press now has enough evidences to put him in jail till the end of his life, or execute if only it would be legal in Ukraine.

What i mean with Trust is you cant say. "All these things we agree on are done before we leave the room or else". It doesn't work that fast. You have to say "do it before this reasonable date" which they did and then you have no option but to see if he does it.

Thats why it looks a little like the EU got dupped but there is no other way to go about these sort of negotiations.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-02-22 16:30:31
February 22 2014 16:05 GMT
#1131
On February 23 2014 00:47 mahrgell wrote:
Even if the protesters are a majority by now, demanding 110% and leaving your opponent with nothing, when your opponent still has significant backing in the whole eastern ukraine won't help the country...
And if every compromise is thrown away after half a day, then you can hardly blame yanukovitch for 'not willing to negotiate'

edit: I'm btw (of course, as a euopean) favoring the protesters... But what they have shown lately really reduced my support for them... If there is nothing stopping them but total victory, it is clear, that they didn't understand the idea of democracy either... And long term this total victory they are aiming for will just throw back ukraine as much as yanukovich did... And will certainly not bring them closer to europe Have fun ending like turkey... Always part of all military alliances, but no chance to get into the EU...

Should there have been a peace treaty with Hitler at some point to avoid further bloodshed? Suppose there was. And then the Germans removed him, what would have you done? Demanded that the treaty was being upheld and Hitler reinstalled? Clearly Yanukovich is not Hitler but you get the idea. There is a line after crossing which a politician has to go, if he refuses to do so he must be forced. In my opinion Yanukovich has crossed that line a long time ago. Also technically Maidan didn't just catch him and force into resignation under the fear of death, he was impeached by the Parliament, including by many of his former allies representing Eastern and Southern regions. If such behavior does not meet EU standards, so be it. But there is a question whose standards are actually lacking.
Shield
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Bulgaria4824 Posts
February 22 2014 16:15 GMT
#1132
So the question now is, will Yanukovich go to Russia to save his life? If people see him in Ukraine... then it may be risky for him.
Dav1oN
Profile Joined January 2012
Ukraine3164 Posts
February 22 2014 16:19 GMT
#1133
Julia Timoshenko miraculously healed and leaving Kharkiv hospital for Kiev.

I wish we could have more resignations so more people would be totally healty.
In memory of Geoff "iNcontroL" Robinson 11.09.1985 - 21.07.2019 A tribute to incredible man, embodiment of joy, esports titan, starcraft community pillar all in one. You will always be remembered!
hunts
Profile Joined September 2010
United States2113 Posts
February 22 2014 16:25 GMT
#1134
I'm glad at least things are slowly going in the right direction. I was born in ukraine and lived in dnepropitrovsk until I was 8, when we moved to america, makes me very sad that it seems since then things have only been going downhill for ukraine. Unfortunately I also can't help with translating news as I forgot how to read/write russian a long time ago.
twitch.tv/huntstv 7x legend streamer
Dav1oN
Profile Joined January 2012
Ukraine3164 Posts
February 22 2014 16:31 GMT
#1135
On February 23 2014 01:25 hunts wrote:
I'm glad at least things are slowly going in the right direction. I was born in ukraine and lived in dnepropitrovsk until I was 8, when we moved to america, makes me very sad that it seems since then things have only been going downhill for ukraine. Unfortunately I also can't help with translating news as I forgot how to read/write russian a long time ago.


Luckily there are few users on TL that knows russian/ukraininan/english
In memory of Geoff "iNcontroL" Robinson 11.09.1985 - 21.07.2019 A tribute to incredible man, embodiment of joy, esports titan, starcraft community pillar all in one. You will always be remembered!
mahrgell
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Germany3943 Posts
February 22 2014 16:32 GMT
#1136
On February 23 2014 01:05 Cheerio wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2014 00:47 mahrgell wrote:
Even if the protesters are a majority by now, demanding 110% and leaving your opponent with nothing, when your opponent still has significant backing in the whole eastern ukraine won't help the country...
And if every compromise is thrown away after half a day, then you can hardly blame yanukovitch for 'not willing to negotiate'

edit: I'm btw (of course, as a euopean) favoring the protesters... But what they have shown lately really reduced my support for them... If there is nothing stopping them but total victory, it is clear, that they didn't understand the idea of democracy either... And long term this total victory they are aiming for will just throw back ukraine as much as yanukovich did... And will certainly not bring them closer to europe Have fun ending like turkey... Always part of all military alliances, but no chance to get into the EU...

Should there have been a peace treaty with Hitler at some point to avoid further bloodshed? Suppose there was. And then the Germans removed him, what would have you done? Demanded that the treaty was being upheld and Hitler reinstalled? Clearly Yanukovich is not Hitler but you get the idea. There is a line after crossing which a politician has to go, if he refuses to do so he must be forced. In my opinion Yanukovich has crossed that line a long time ago. Also technically Maidan didn't just catch him and force into resignation under the fear of death, he was impeached by the Parliament, including by many of his former allies representing Eastern and Southern regions. If such behavior is not meet EU standards, so be it. But there is a question whose standards are actually lacking.

Both sides making Hitler comparisons... awesome... (yanukovich did today in TV. comparing the ukraine to 1933 germany)
And if things would have went by the agreements made, he would have been gone as well... at least if the majority votes against him in reelections.
But by rushing things now, opposition is losing it's own credibility and provoking a counter reaction... from inside and outside...
Sometimes it has advantages to change a bit more slowly, if you can make your opponent agree to it, because then there is no way to doubt the legitimacy of those changes...
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
February 22 2014 16:37 GMT
#1137
On February 23 2014 00:54 mahrgell wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2014 00:47 MyrMindservant wrote:

On February 23 2014 00:34 mahrgell wrote:
so the parliament decides to ignore all the results of the negotiations 2 days ago led by the EU foreign ministers?
That is surely a good base for trust in future relations, if there is a power change now

Yanukovich is the one who started to ignore everything. Many thing have happened today, very many. Ministers of foreign affairs from Poland, Germany and France are currently in Kiev, in Verkhovna Rada (Ukrainian parliament). They knew about the upcoming vote for presidential resignation and didn't mind it.
Please don't take things out of context.


And what is happening right now is certainly not part of those negotiations...

Yes, this is much more than you could hope for.
radiatoren
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Denmark1907 Posts
February 22 2014 16:40 GMT
#1138
On February 23 2014 01:05 Cheerio wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 23 2014 00:47 mahrgell wrote:
Even if the protesters are a majority by now, demanding 110% and leaving your opponent with nothing, when your opponent still has significant backing in the whole eastern ukraine won't help the country...
And if every compromise is thrown away after half a day, then you can hardly blame yanukovitch for 'not willing to negotiate'

edit: I'm btw (of course, as a euopean) favoring the protesters... But what they have shown lately really reduced my support for them... If there is nothing stopping them but total victory, it is clear, that they didn't understand the idea of democracy either... And long term this total victory they are aiming for will just throw back ukraine as much as yanukovich did... And will certainly not bring them closer to europe Have fun ending like turkey... Always part of all military alliances, but no chance to get into the EU...

Should there have been a peace treaty with Hitler at some point to avoid further bloodshed? Suppose there was. And then the Germans removed him, what would have you done? Demanded that the treaty was being upheld and Hitler reinstalled? Clearly Yanukovich is not Hitler but you get the idea. There is a line after crossing which a politician has to go, if he refuses to do so he must be forced. In my opinion Yanukovich has crossed that line a long time ago. Also technically Maidan didn't just catch him and force into resignation under the fear of death, he was impeached by the Parliament, including by many of his former allies representing Eastern and Southern regions. If such behavior is not meet EU standards, so be it. But there is a question whose standards are actually lacking.

I don't think it is appropriate to use Hitler here. Especially since Yanukovych is using the same analogies in the other direction (Don't stoop to his level!).

Nazism should be a closed chapter, not that it cannot be discussed, but using it as analogy is instantly poisoning the well for most people. Used as an argument it belongs as a propaganda-tool for those seeking a certain bias.
Repeat before me
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
February 22 2014 16:42 GMT
#1139
Well that's the problem with revolutions, they are against the law, but that doesn't mean they are undemocratic.
zezamer
Profile Joined March 2011
Finland5701 Posts
February 22 2014 16:43 GMT
#1140
"cant win political discussion with solid arguments"
-> call other one nazi

classic
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