TL Mafia LXIII: Time to Die - Page 358

Holyflare
11-26-2013
01:33 PM ET (US)
Well hopefully we don't die! risen into coag is a solid lynch train and yeh i think it's hopeless but we'll see what happens!
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Mig
11-26-2013
12:41 PM ET (US)
Btw if somehow Grack is alive at LyLo then there is a decent chance he could be mafia. Just the fact that every single mafia member has targeted him and he has killed them. Especially if Risen/Coag are mafia because they have both voted Grack. Could be some ridiculous Grack going on his own plan/targeted by the team for towncred. But this is just kind of a random thought. I doubt grack will be alive then.
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Mig
11-26-2013
12:25 PM ET (US)
I agree Coag is super scummy. Your stuff combined with my earlier reasons seems like a pretty solid case. Coag is tricky in that it is hard to ever have a super solid case on him but this is probably about as good as you can get.

I also think hopeless is probably the last mafia (if we are right about risen/coag). Hopeless has just said too many nonsensical things/been too unhelpful compared to his normal town play.
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HolyflarePerson was signed in when posted
11-26-2013
04:53 AM ET (US)
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Coag is scum, holy crap how have I not seen it before. His filter is total garbage. I'm going to make a post on him 100%

He also says this by the way:




but his pretty much first post of the day is:





he wants to lynch thrawn, votes risen and then says he doesn't give a shit and then ends up lynching thrawn anyway??? How flip floppy can you be?!
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Holyflare
11-25-2013
07:02 PM ET (US)
Sorry didn't have time yet :'( been at law exams so kinda exhausted, will be able to do it before mason chat ends though so np!
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HolyflarePerson was signed in when posted
11-25-2013
03:05 PM ET (US)
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Reading up on coag, give me a bit.
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Mig
11-25-2013
12:07 PM ET (US)
If he wasn't going to push a 2shot vig for sick town cred then why mention him at all. Should just let mocsta fly under the radar.
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Mig
11-25-2013
12:06 PM ET (US)
What do you think about Coag?
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Holyflare
11-25-2013
10:59 AM ET (US)
Why would he push a 2 shot vigi that hard :p? Anyway, I'm pretty confident in my list of people!
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Mig
11-24-2013
09:51 PM ET (US)
Slam could possibly be scum. He seems so random tough to say for sure.

Grack I think it is very unlikely he is mafia. If you see how he pushed mocsta day1 he was hesitant to tell supersoft to lynch him. He didn't push insanely hard and say this guy is definitely scum (which if he were going for a towncred bus he would push stronger so he receives more credit. Then he was also one of the strongest supporters of lynching BC. Just seems unlikely.

I considered what you are saying that BC knows grack is mafia so he had extra information to make the case but I think it is more likely just BC being a retard and forcing a case when there was none, which led to his death.
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Holyflare
11-24-2013
04:54 PM ET (US)
Also tempted by slam but i haven't read through him yet
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Holyflare
11-24-2013
04:53 PM ET (US)
I'm thinking grack could also be scum exactly because of those scum pushes by the way. Did you read bc's case and subsequently why i thought bc was scummy? It said that bc had total non towny reasoning, the only way he could come up with something like he did was if it was the truth. I.e. Mocsta was annoyed at grack because he was scum and pushing their vig. I don't think we should sleep on that guy.

My list so far looks like:

Risen, thrawn, hopeless, onegu/grack. Onegu returns to the thread and spends the entirety of his time attacking just me based on something he misinterpreted and doesn't actually participate. His votes were on people with 0 votes (me and austin) and he didn't vote to save rayn or bc who were his top town reads over null reads.
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Mig
11-24-2013
04:05 PM ET (US)
lol yea they are monkeys
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HolyflarePerson was signed in when posted
11-24-2013
02:27 PM ET (US)
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what the actual fuck is going on, is this defend scum till they die day!? everyone has suddenly flipped to thrawn being really towny despite there being lots of evidence that he isn't.................. -.-
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Mig
11-24-2013
01:01 PM ET (US)
Pandain is definitely not confirmed town. I think the Vet claim makes sense, his change of read about my notes makes sense from a townie and showed he was evaluating new information for his reads and his lie about ss changing the logs brought a lot of pressure onto himself and if he is townie is really pro town. So I lean town on him but he is absolutely not confirmed town.
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Mig
11-24-2013
12:59 PM ET (US)
Right that post by hopeless is horrible. I just played with hopeless in white flag he seemed very reasonable and logical. That post is a joke. Still ranting about the ss/pandain logs which were explained 5 times.
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Holyflare
11-24-2013
11:49 AM ET (US)
Pretty much the only contribution hopeless has is a case on pandain which he quoted today again. Effectively useless.

What do you think of pandain? Keep hearing people say he is confirmed town?? Not so sure on that to be honest.
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HolyflarePerson was signed in when posted
11-24-2013
11:38 AM ET (US)
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rayn wagon is definitely suspicious people too, I don't think we can count them out
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HolyflarePerson was signed in when posted
11-24-2013
11:34 AM ET (US)
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lol I'll be a happy guy if oats/bc/hopeless are scum because that's who I made a giant post on d2 :D:D:D:D:D! I think thrawn is definitely scum, risen is almost definitely scum. Hopeless for the same reasons as day 2. I haven't really looked so much into him as of late but his posts today look quite weird. His last few posts have been having an aggressive tone though which I find a bit suspicious because he hasn't really done anything to help.

This post for example:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessag...urrentpage=302#6022

he is pretty much yelling at us and trying to get us to reason into a risen lynch when everyone is already on him, all it is, is asking questions about people and he swears at us for not playing the game? Last I checked he has done no scum hunting or anything to actually contribute in any way yet here he is telling us how to play. I think that's a scummy mindset to have and feigns actual contribution. Especially as it echo's exactly what we have said (that the bc switch was intentional wifom)
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Mig
11-24-2013
11:08 AM ET (US)
After that it gets a bit murky. Assuming Risen is mafia that makes Vayne look a lot better. I am actually somewhat suspicious of hopeless now. What are your thoughts on him?
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Mig
11-24-2013
11:02 AM ET (US)
Right now I think Risen/Thrawn are slam dunks the odds of them being mafia are so incredibly high. They knew SS would not change his opinion (he tunneled oats all game and believed BC all game he is kind of a monkey in that regard). And if he killed one of them and lowered their kp he would be a real bitch to remove so had to get rid of him.
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Mig
11-24-2013
11:01 AM ET (US)
Hey hey!
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HolyflarePerson was signed in when posted
11-24-2013
10:47 AM ET (US)
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Gotta go for a bit but i'll be on later and we will have many chats. Leave me some questions/things you want to discuss though!
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HolyflarePerson was signed in when posted
11-24-2013
10:46 AM ET (US)
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HELLO THERE FRIEND
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marvellosityPerson was signed in when posted
11-24-2013
10:45 AM ET (US)
Holyflare and Mig mason Day 4/Night 4

Yamato77
Why did you mason me?

Yamato77
I apologize, now that I remember LXII, I think you're actually town for this.

Either way, scum probably won't kill you, and they can't roleblock you, so it's not like being outed is a huge deal. I thought about this before I posted in the thread.

If you need any help catching up or whatever, let me know.

LoneMeow
I masoned you because I wanted to ascertain your alignment. Based on pregame and playing with you before I thought knowing which side you are on would be very useful. I sent the request before reading the thread because the wording was a bit unclear ("beginning of cycle" and such, so I figured I'd have to send the request before reading to fullfil the "spirit of the rules" if not the word). Still catching up on the thread, very busy day at work.

LoneMeow
I'd like to hear your thoughts of raynpelikoneet and especially his defense of me. I see a flaw in his logic, but is that obvious to you too?

Yamato77
honestly, flawed logic doesn't mean anything

arguing over people beign right or wrong about how they reason is the biggest noob trap ever

LoneMeow
If you can't become the mayor, who would you prefer to get the job? Who would you prefer to be the pardoner? Is that affected by who gets the mayor job?

Yamato77
VE will be mayor AFAIK and he should be. I should be pardoner but BC is an alright choice. I don't trust ss fully but he had some town tells early on when I mentioned that you masoned me in the thread. I put pressure on him because I want to see what he does.

I'll be rereading today.

LoneMeow
Do you believe Pandain's mason claim? And what does that imply of his alignment, if anything?

Yamato77
Last mayor game had a bunch of masons. He could be a mason, but it doesn't make him town.

I think he's townish though.

Yamato77
Why do people still think I think BC is mafia? I clearly said otherwise

right now I'm working with BH/austin as mafia

Yamato77
If you come back before the deadline, I'd really like it if you placed your vote on me over VE. I don't think VE is mafia, but I think I would use the lynch better than he would.

LoneMeow
I will be back before deadline. I could agree about BH being scum, his uselessness is very similar to Hogwarts (I'm not really aware of his town meta though). Not fully caught up to the thread right now, but I'm reconsidering my vote and will prioritise voting someone I think is most likely town - a mislynch I can live with but electing scum as mayor would be very bad.

Yamato77
I think it's really obvious that I'm town.

Yamato77
Is this mason over or did you not continue to post here at all?

LoneMeow
I believe we're masoned until end of cycle, so a few more hours still. I was afk for most of the last 24 hours or so, and in fact missed the deadline too.

LoneMeow
Now that we're both around, there's a few things I'd like to hear your opinion on:

1) Do you think BH's uselessness is alignment indicative? Would you still want to lynch him?
2) Your read on Onegu?
3) Ditto on Pandain?

Yamato77
BH is mafia, Onegu I am unsure of, I think Pandain is townish but I struggle to reconcile why he voted for SS who called him mafia.

LoneMeow
I would support a BH lynch, he's been utterly useless and very much reminds me of the way he played in Hogwarts.

I had Pandain down as scum before deadline, but he's looking better to me now so I'd say null for now.

Koshi compared my lurking to my scum play in Hogwarts - do you think he's intentionally cherry picking or did he honestly forget I played very much like that as town in LXI?

Yamato77
Koshi is quite possibly mafia. I don't like a single post he's made about his reads.

Koshi
Hi Stray Kitten.

Koshi
So, is this about me proving to you that I am town? Or you proving to me that you are town?
Or both?

Or is this just about scumhunting together?
Or thrice?

LoneMeow
This is about all three things, though right now *I* mostly care about figuring out your alignment.

I'd like to hear about your thought process when you changed your mind about raynpelikoneet for starters.

Koshi
Really don't understand why you don't post in the thread. So scummy.

Koshi
Well. to be really honest.

I thought rayn was scum for saying I was scum for starters. Also him not talking to me about my case on supersoft if he also had doubts on supersoft. Just strange. Then I just tunneled a bit on him and made cases so that others would also believe it and he would get lynched. Got to do something on D1 right. I am actually truly lost in bigger games on D1. Mostly in minis as well unless something scummy gets smacked in my face.

But atm he might be town. Unless he is in a scumteam with Grack. Because they are pushing same agenda atm. Also might explain why he forgot Grack earlier in the game when he gave 5 names and then added Grack when somebody asked him about it. So unlikely rayn.


But yeah, I kind a want to lynch BH atm. 120 hours should be enough for town BH to actually find scum. So we lynch BH and the next day lynch his scumreads if he actually is town.

Sounds like a perfect plan.

Koshi
Got to try and make VE use the double lynch as well.

Koshi
If we lynch BH.

LoneMeow
If we go for double lynch now and BH flips red, do you think we have 2 solid enough targets for the double lynch tomorrow? Who would you propose at this stage as the 2 next likely scum?

Koshi
It is still a very long time till D3 lynch. And there are always people we want to lynch.

Koshi
If BH is red I need to ask Alakaslam what he said about BH & VA scumteam for examples.

Koshi
Also, you really need to post in the thread. Soon I will reveal this QT between us if you don't post in the thread.
If you post in the thread I can keep it a secret. If you want that.

You were heavy lurk in Hogwarts and I dislike people trying to win people over in a QT.
Yamato being town and covering for you does make you look good. But I don't like it why you don't show that to the thread.

Koshi
I totally crumbed that we were in a QT. for funzies.

Where are you m8?

LoneMeow
Having a terrible afternoon at work.

As much as I hate defending myself with meta, I also hate it that you keep cherry picking my lurk in Hogwarts while ignoring that I played more or less exactly the same in LXI as town.

Also, it's not like I especially want to keep my choice of mason target for today secret.

What would it take from BH for you to want to lynch someone else?

Koshi
Probably will lynch BH no matter what. Unless he really shows he figured out the game or is trying.

Koshi
I know you also played extremely lurky in LXI. You need to post otherwise people will always think you are scum. It's how it is.

LoneMeow
Do the other lurkers usually play lurky as either alignment? Those being Stutters, Mr. CheeseCake and Coagulation mainly, I suppose.

Koshi
Stutters is always lurky. But this is a new level ofc...
CC was town in Noir and was semi active (13pages). CC was scum in Aperture and was semi active (14 pages). Him doing absolutely nothing is new to me.
Coag is somebody I don't know. I guess I have played games with him but I forgot.

LoneMeow
Do you think this lurkiness in those players may be alignment indicative or not?

LoneMeow
Also, would you agree that Alakaslam is probably town? He looks like the usual overly paranoid Slam to me rather than scum pushing agenda.

Koshi
Depends if BH is scum tbh. I don't know why he is suddenly going crazy and attacking rayn.

Koshi
Btw, Vayne thinks you are scum and he is looking townie. You might want to mason him tomorrow.

LoneMeow
I kind of noticed VA wanting to lunch me. I have kind of accepted my fate, but I might mason him anyway. In the land where meta rules, you're not allowed to try to improve

What's your opinion on Mig? I thought he was town, but his reads have been pretty non-existent and apparently he's supposed to be some kind of experienced player...

LoneMeow
Reading through Mocsta's filter I noticed he spent quite a few posts defending Sharrant. I'd like to hear your opinion on those posts.

LoneMeow
After re-reading Alakaslam's filter, I'm no longer at all sure he's town. That 180 on raynpelikoneet is just ridiculously quick...

Koshi
Bot Mocsta and Sharrant already flipped m8. I don't know what you want me to say...

You being a suspect for lynching has nothing to do with us not wanting you to improve. That's silly to suggest.
You can also not blame us for using meta on you because you are a low volume poster. If you would break out with a 5-10 page filter this game we wouldn't be able to use meta. But just like in noir and Hogwards you have a 2-3 page filter.

Best way to show thread that you are playing this game on D3 is to make a list with all players and give your honest opinion about them. Because to me it looks like you are pretending you are scumhunting but not really doing anything. You told me you wanted to know my alignement by Masoning me, did you figure it out? You asked 1 question? You asked me questions about the lurkers/afkers, did you figure it out?
There is never a conclusion to your questions and we all love to know where you stand.

LoneMeow
Oops, that's what I get for staring at a filter for too long I suppose.

My point with the meta was that two games does not really establish any kind of statistically meaningful dataset to compare against.

I'm pretty sure I'll get lynched for posting an "useless list post" but sure, I'll do that. Sadly it'll be full of "not sure, null" entries because I honestly don't have a good idea of the alignment of most players in this game.

If BH flips red you're definitely town, if he flips something else I suppose I'd still think you likely town.

Koshi
Yeah, if you don't have an idea about more than 10 people than you better just concentrate on your scumreads. Those 4 names you gave are not too shabby. Make cases around the 3 that will be alive tomorrow and I am sure you will stay alive if they are good.

Koshi
Just Mason VA tommorrow and you will be all right. Unless you went cutiepie on the Sharrant mistake I think you are town.

LoneMeow
Penny for your thoughts on HolyFlare?

The mason log he posted makes him look better and austinmcc look worse to me, but that's the exact opposite of my previous reads so I need to think about this.

Koshi
When reading that big ass post from Holyflare I only paid attention to Holyflare tbh. I think he is town, but it all depends a bit on BH flip on what I will do tomorrow. If BH flips town I need to look at Grack, thrawn, BC, alakaslam, etc. If BH flips red I just sheep rayn till he is wrong or I find something really good.

I also still find it interesting that Sharrant, StorrZerg & Spag died over vets like BH, SS, VE, Mig, BC etc. Just strange, especially that insane doc Sharrant kill. Quite sexy read. Just like the shot on Mocsta.

LoneMeow
Do you think getting rid of both assassins was beneficial for town?

Koshi
No it's bad for town, they wont tank any shots now. But BH was a good lynch, he could have easily flipped scum. VE was a bigger loss but now we understand why he was going after Skanjab D1...

LoneMeow
Hello. I believe you wanted to chat with me.

austinmcc
Yup Yup. I just checked this and have to run shortly, but I will be able to be active in here in...like 3.5 or so hours?

You're more than welcome to get active in thread, you've just been somewhat absent today and are on some peoples' lists of folks to lynch, and I wanted to see more from you to figure out whether to move you up or down. I know you're just catching up, but if you could at least look at supersoft/BC/oats stuff, that would be helpful. (supersoft claims BC masons him D1, supersoft claims he's town RB and going to RB oats, supersoft isn't blocked, we don't have all the KP accounted for, therefore supersoft thinks BC town/oats mafia)

austinmcc
Also Hi! We haven't played together from what I remember.

austinmcc
I am back.

You around?

LoneMeow
Yes, just got home half an hour ago. Trying to catch up and reading Pandain's filter.

austinmcc
Okay. Don't even worry about this supersoft/BC/oats stuff if you don't already have thoughts about it. I just want to sit down and have a nice rapid fire conversation, want to see quick honest thoughts and want to give you some quick honest thoughts and see where you think I'm wrong / missing things / etc.

LoneMeow
Can you give me a quick TL;DR version of the claims that happened during early D3 or so? I haven't had time to figure that out yet.

austinmcc
Ugh. Everything by everyone.

I claimed vet during N2 resolution.

Supersoft claimed RB. Claims to have told BC in mason chat D1 that he was town RB and blocking oats.

Vayne claimed hatter.

Rayn previously claimed hatter, says he was lying.

Cheesecake continues to say I'm the doctor, but not in a serious way.

Mig claimed 2-shot vigi, shot sharrant N1, mattchew N2.

Grack sort of claimed mason, but isn't one.

The mason logs between SS and pandain show pandain claiming Vet. Pandain says he never claimed vet.

LoneMeow
Pandain avoiding explaining his sudden read changes on me is scummy. Agree/disagree?

austinmcc
Mildly. But as scum, pandain could easily make up a reason, including a reason that sounded different.

Given that his town read was based purely on your actions in masoning Yamato, you don't think there's any reason for his read to have changed?

LoneMeow
There could be reasons. My problem is with him ignoring me when I ask for said reasons.

austinmcc
Why does scumpandain ignore your request?
Why does townpandain ignore your request?

LoneMeow
Scumpandain doesn't have actual reasons so he would have to cook something up.

Townpandain might be... lazy?

This is kind of the crux, I can't think of reasonable reasons why he'd ignore my request if he's town.

austinmcc
Imo, scumpandain could easily cook something up. He's comfortable enough as scum to be pretty active, and other people had already put reasons in thread why they found you scummy. If he really needed a reason, he could just copy paste someone else's and say he agreed, throw a slight spin on it to add his own stuff.

In the same vein, last time you gave reads, I see Pandain/Mig/me. Why is pandain a top read? All you say is that he looked bad, then good, but now you're his top scum read so he's back on your list. Apart from his interaction with you, do you actively find him scummy?

LoneMeow
He can't really copy what someone else said since the only "case" on me is raynpelikoneet's "scumslip" case more or less. (There are some "he's lurking" cases but those are hardly good enough for _top_ scum read, I'd think.)

Couple of things that make me think he might be scum:

1. claims it is advantageous for town to get the assassins out
2. twice essentially says there are scum doctors (not maybe, just flat out there are scum doctors)
3. wished for Stutters modkill
4. kind of backpedaled on BH (called BH scum, then a bit later he was still scum but not best lynch anymore)
5. ignores me when I ask for reasons on his read on me

None of this alone would be very indicative of anything but it adds up...

LoneMeow
I see your vote is on BloodyC0bbler. If he is scum, would you say that would implicate anyone else?

austinmcc
You masoned yamato D1. Out of his reads late into N1, which do you like best? His filter for reference - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessag...r=yamato77&view=all

Koshi, thrawn is he's useless (and he has been useless), oats, anything out of that group do something for you?

austinmcc
If BC is scum, it makes Oats very very very very very likely town. It makes Mig likely town.

It possibly implicates cheese, possibly you, because he goes off on a lot of inactive-y folks but not the two of you. Quit possibly thrawn as well.

In each case, he really doesn't say anything about that set of folks, he has a COUPLE of interactions with thrawn, but it's always thrawn going, "Hey BC, tell me about x!" and not really much else. Thrawn less implicated because of that, but I could see him just helping BC push an agenda, specifically, BC's interpretation of mocsta's flip and interactions.

LoneMeow
I'm really torn on Koshi. I expected him to query me in the mason QT far more than he did, he was just being very friendly which gives me bad vibes. On the other hand, yamato was also quite friendly in our mason QT and he was town... Koshi's thread presence gives me slight town read, but I'm not at all certain I can read him very well.

I don't think thrawn2112 is scum unless my Pandain read is wrong. And if we talk about useless, you could add players like Mr. Cheesecake, myself, Alakaslam and Onegu to the list pretty much.

The last read I had on Oatsmaster was pretty null-ish, I'll go and check his filter (I need to do that to evaluate supersoft's claim anyway).

austinmcc
So you're not a big fan of any of yamato's final reads? This isn't a trap, this is just...he wrote koshi/thrawn if useless/oats. I just want to see if you agree/disagree with them, and it looks like you are town/town/? on those three.

LoneMeow
I don't super agree with them, no. Koshi is the one I'm most afraid of, because if I'm wrong about him and he is actually scum it means I'm probably wrong about a lot of other things.

austinmcc
Okay. If you could ... remove 5 people from lynchability for the rest of the game, who would you choose? People you think are super duper duper mega town.

If you could remove votes from 3 people in the game, who and why? Scum, you think they're making poor decisions, etc. etc.

LoneMeow
There's not a single person I'd consider town enough that I wouldn't want to retain the option to lynch them later if it turns out I've been wrong.

If I could remove votes, I'd take raynpelikoneet and Alakaslam at least, the former is just impossible to follow and the latter is very much random and defies any attempts at figuring out. Don't have a third name right now.

LoneMeow
Thoughts on Onegu?

austinmcc
His filter is tiny. His mayoral campaign got no support, I don't know why mafia would campaign for mayor without ANY support whatsoever, and keep that going. His big HF post/case on D1 blew, imo, and felt scummy. His justifications when I asked him about that post felt like butt, but he continued the same thought process about HF asking questions while not speaking himself (something that I disagreed with him on).

He responds to Marv's posting of the town/scum numbers, gut read that's town.

I like Onegu for town. His filter reads townie to me in enough points that it outdoes his early poopcase on HF.

LoneMeow
What about Alakaslam? I keep swapping him between town and scum in my notes...

austinmcc
Unsure.

LoneMeow
Also, I kind of agree that Onegu might be town. Not a very solid read though. Didn't really think his campaign was very alignment indicative but the rest of it gives town read on gut even though he's not really participating as much as I'd expect. He hasn't lurker as scum in any game I've played with him though so perhaps the lurking isn't very alignment indicative.

austinmcc
I'm having problems with the mayoral votes now. We have 6 scum. We know mocsta is scum, and ended the day voting for himself as the only person. That means 5 scum votes in play.

I THINK thrawn is scum, not as super hard as BC and others, but think it. Maybe hard, I dunno. Game so wonky. If thrawm is scum, that means that scumHiro voted himself and left his vote there throughout the day. Means only FOUR scum votes in play.

Now, hiro was AFK and had to be replaced, so maybe that's legitimate. But if Thrawn and mocsta are BOTH scum, and scum only have 4 remaining votes, i DON'T see them stranding any votes, like Onegu. No way he sits on himself when they've already lost 1/3 of their influence on the thread. It's POSSIBLE this implicates people like slam, rayn, and other folks who were on themselves but later consolidated, except i think it's more likely scum is just scattered, and since I think BC is scum I kind of question some votes on him, which I guess implicates cheese and slam. Don't think mafia runs BC and supersoft against each other? Probably not.

LoneMeow
Of course if they didn't even try to run for mayor/pardoner they wouldn't have any need whatsoever to consolidate, but this is just WIFOM.

I am kind of wanting to like supersoft for scum, because that would make the mayoral votes make much more sense, but that's quite incompatible with Pandain being scum...

austinmcc
Even if they don't run someone, in my head, they at least want some say in who is mayor. They can look at likely targets, and try to avoid anyone that is trying to actually lynch mafia.

This assumes anyone was, and that mayoral candidates were posting scum lists and discussing lynches, which they super weren't.

LoneMeow
That makes sense. Assuming all candidates were town, would that implicate someone?

austinmcc
Not anyone majorly from what I remember. Yamato I think was decently set on BH, and BH wasn't scum. VE had a big fat list of people, most of whom weren't scum.

Supersoft MIGHT have lynched mocsta, in which case we look for flight off supersoft. That implicates me and Koshi. I know I'm town, I really think Koshi's town, so I don't get anywhere on that. However, we can also look for votes moving to NOT supersoft, in an attempt to get someone else elected over him --> again all the late votes on VE look alright, and the late votes on Yamato are like..>Vayne and Grack, unsure when they came in.

I don't see anything particularly damning in the votes unless ss is mafia. Assuming BC is mafia, I still think SOME of the votes on him could be mafia, but otherwise I'm not really getting anything except just a basic assumption that scum want SOME influence.

LoneMeow
Assuming supersoft is scum, what would he have done with the D1 lynch given that he had hinted he would lynch Mocsta?

austinmcc
rayn had a good post on it somewhere. Basically, ss didn't mention looking at mocsta until late in the day. And with like 10-15 minutes left, he was looking elsewhere and still saying he was checking mocsta's filter.

He never said I AM GOING TO LYNCH MOCSTA, he just kept dropping that name and saying he was reading, even as we got very close to lynch.

All he has to do is find SOME reason not to lynch mocsta over anyone else. Not too hard.

LoneMeow
If you could shoot one person now, before the lynch, who would you shoot? Ie. of the people you find scummy, whose flip do you think would help us figure out the game?

austinmcc
I shoot BC 80000000000000000%.

If BC is mafia, oats is not, and people get off his nuts. If BC is mafia, grack is VERY VERY VERY likely town. I think. Maybe. It also makes thrawn look much worse for his saying BC's take on the mocsta/grack interactions so sexy. Also very telling of mig's alignment, scum BC = 99.999% town mig.

I think BC is a lynchpin here and...needs to get lynched?

austinmcc
Yourself?

LoneMeow
I'd be very tempted to shoot supersoft. His flip would be very useful, but I'm still not very satisfied that he actually is scum.

BloodyC0bbler isn't a bad choice either, I just can't get any kind of read on him, everything he says seems like it could come from either alignment. I suspect it would help if I had played with him before.

austinmcc
In your mind, what does supersoft's flip say about people? Both town and scum flips.

LoneMeow
If he'd flip scum then Alakaslam, BloodyC0bbler and Holyflare would all look bad.

if he'd flip town, then Koshi and you would look interesting. Possibly also Oatsmaster.

LoneMeow
Scum supersoft would also make Grackaroni a very interesting person.

austinmcc
Why grack?

LoneMeow
No wait, missed the timing of the vote, doesn't make sense that he'd have voted a scum buddy hoping someone would follow.

austinmcc
Pretend you're mafia today, and I dunno how much exp you have playing as mafia, so feel free to MAKE IT ALL UP if you want. But, pretend you're mafia.

How are you playing today? It is double lynch. You have 4 teammates. It's likely 1-2 of you is under SOME suspicion, maybe 1 guy under lots.

We're closing in on lynch and votes are everywhere, on everyone, for reasons that you KNOW nobody in town can follow. What do you do?

LoneMeow
Add more confusion, have people swap votes and occasionally bus each other when there's no real risk of getting lynched?

austinmcc
What do you make of thrawn being active in another game but not this one?

LoneMeow
Really weird. But wouldn't it be kind of stupid to intentionally do that as scum?

austinmcc
Have you played any scum games? Just wondering.

At least for some/most people, playing scum is really tough. You have to fake activity, you have to fake scumreads, it's just...way more WORK it feels like and people are ACCUSING you of being EVIL and also, YOU ARE EVIL. It can be terrible.

So it's stupid to do that, sure, but I know I have just straight up afked some days as scum, because I didn't feel like reading the thread, responding to accusations, or doing much. There's less motivation because your goal is to HIDE, rather than to SOLVE. I don't think it's too uncommon.

austinmcc
If you've been scum, you might play differently. Otherwise, it's absolutely on the table because today has probably been somewhat of a mess for town, and there's a boatload of thread to read for scum. Scum looks at votes, sees they're sitting pretty, and absolutely wouldn't want to read the thread and participate.

austinmcc
What do you make of BC's large post?

austinmcc
Mic check one two, mic check one two. Would still like to know some substantive thoughts on BC's large post, regardless of his flip.

austinmcc
I'm stepping back from game for a little, maybe for the rest of the night (it's almost 9 EST).

Would like to hear your thoughts on BC's large reads post still. And ... Vayne. Whatchoo think 'bout Vayne?

austinmcc
Also interested, given your scumread on pandain, what you think about the voters on him and BC's swap to pandain last second.

austinmcc
NONONO PLEASE RETURN.

Lonemeow lonemeow lonemeow!

LoneMeow
Well hello there, I am back. Give me a moment to catch up.

LoneMeow
BC's last minute swap is just pure WIFOM territory.

It decided between raynpelikoneet and Risen if I'm not mistaken. So it could have been to save Risen, or it could have been to make it look like he wanted to save Risen.

austinmcc
If I had not voted at 3 minutes to go, it would have decided between risen/pandain. Because I swapped my vote to rayn with 3 minutes left, his last-minute vote decided between risen/rayn, ya.

Okay. Still interested in thoughts on that final post of his. Do you think he thought he could convince anyone? Is there a read in there that feels genuine? Is there any read that looks 100% made up? It's conjecture, speculation, but every one of those reads is either real or made-up. Based on what he called out and his language, some of the reads might lean one way or the other for you.

LoneMeow
The post itself felt quite convincing, but IMHO it was too late to be very likely to save him (and I'd expect him to have realized that), so it most likely was made to confuse.

From what I can see, most of the reads are consistent with his earlier stances.

Some points to note:
1. gives Koshi 100% town when the previous read was "could go either way"
2. Oatsmaster is mafia when he previously is kind of wishy washy about it
3. it's interesting that he picks Hopeless1der as scum because he's lurking when there are others who are more or less just as lurky and useless

austinmcc
Okay. I'm going to post this, AND I AM ALSO GOING TO MAKE UP A FAKE MESSAGE AND PUT AT THE END OF IT ABOUT YOU BEING A PRETTY KITTY OR SOMETHING.

FOR ANYONE WHO ACTUALLY BOTHERS TO READ THESE LOGS, I HAVE ADDED A FAKE MESSAGE ABOUT LM BEING A PRETTY KITTY.

NONE OF THE OTHER MESSAGES ARE FAKE. BUT I AM ADDING ONE BECAUSE IT ENTERTAINS ME. SO TAKE THAT.

austinmcc
Thanks for masoning me and being pretty chatty. I would suggest being relatively active in thread over the next couple days. As people die, thread gets less spammy, so it's easier to follow.

And if you're town, you need to have some presence and take some stances that you back up, because otherwise you're going to get mislynched in short order, once we're down to a bunch of ?s.

austinmcc
ANYONE WHO TRIES TO CLOSE THIS QT HAS TO WRITE WRESTLING FORUMS MAFIA > TL MAFIA 5 TIMES OR ELSE THE QT REMAINS LEGALLY OPEN.

/lawyered

Holyflare
Howdy! Why have you masoned me today my friend?

LoneMeow
Morning. I picked you because:

1. You're difficult to analyze from the thread
2. I don't fully trust my previous mason partners so I didn't want to follow their suggestions
3. You're in more or less the same timezone

LoneMeow
When you're around, I'd like to discuss some thoughts on Koshi and VayneAuthority.

Holyflare
Posting from phone so sorry if it's a bit shit as it's off the top of my head.

I think koshi is town, I don't think he makes a colossal play such as getting rayn lynched as scum. It was very ballsy and he looked utterly convinced that he could read rayn, I think that emotion is hard to fake, especially the sadness when he is wrong.

VA on the other hand. I don't dislike him as town but I haven't read too much into him over other candidates than I could have. He was fairly inactive to begin, only leaving breadcrumbs. He is apparently a MH but didn't call out rayn for it at all, possibly because he thought rayn was towny as is suggested by his posts around rayns death. He's stepped up his posting tenfold now and nobody has anti claimed hatter so I'll have to see. People say that he steers town in wrong directions when he is scum and I'm starting to see a bit pf that shine through recntly.

Holyflare
Can you give me your opinion on oats and hopeless?

LoneMeow
Oatsmaster had been flying completely under my radar, so I went and re-read his filter, and found some interesting tidbits.

These were posted in the game thread:

---

Oatsmaster Singapore. November 21 2013 13:30.
Either BC or SS is scum.

##vote SS
GOO SS.

Risen, why did you drop your policy lynch on Grack? Why is Grack making a joke about being masons with Coag scummy?
##vote Risen

---

Oatsmaster Singapore. November 22 2013 01:00.
Thank you hopeless.
##unvote BC
vote SS

---


But this is what was posted in the voting thread:

---

Oatsmaster Singapore. November 22 2013 01:00.
##
vote SS
##Vote Risen

---

He had been suggesting that BC is scum for a while, then voted SS anyway who he had hardly mentioned at all.
He then proceeds to have both his votes on players who aren't viable lynch targets at all.


During the game he's had what seem to be pretty strong scum reads, but he's never really pushed for one of those to be lynched until now that he is suddenly pushing Risen.


Verdict: Scummy, would lynch.

LoneMeow
On Hopeless1der, let's see.

His switch away from BC and then back is somewhat questionable.

He tries to push Pandain early on which looks good to me since I think Pandain might be scum. On the other hand he also defends Oats who seems scummy to me.

Not much else stands out about him, I liked that the tried to make VA not call others names and present cases instead.


Verdict: Null.

Holyflare
What do you think of hopeless' posts today?

LoneMeow
I'm not sure, the point about WIFOM is okay but I don't especially like how he attacks supersoft's reads. Sure, supersoft was wrong, but that's not exactly a reason to disbelieve all of his reads.

Holyflare
Do you feel like they are overly aggressive at people when he himself does nothing to solve the issue? Also what do you feel about this thrawb/risen vote?

Alssoooo the stuff about onegu is that he returns to the thread, says nothing about anyone and then drops some more nonsense about me. Look at his last point about me. That my vote wasn't on my scum read risen? It actually was. He lies and says he has read/caught up and then posts things to throw people off me because he knows i am suspicious of him.

Also, i am not sure of your alignment. If you are around now, you have 30 mins to sell yourself to me. I masoned mig today and i can say he is 100% town