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On February 26 2013 08:28 Acrofales wrote:
Keir had time to pop in and say "hai gaiz, I'm town", then bugger off for 15 hours, say he was reading the thread, and ask a pointless question. The only motivation I can see for this behaviour is to say "dudes, I'm in the game and doing stuff", which is behaviour I associate with scums.
It wasn't a pointless question (and thrawn never answered it either). Thrawn came out and said "hey guys, forget all this policy stuff, its pointless. Just play!"
Then, despite having no other mention of Hapa, as soon as other people start talking about him, thrawn was like "oh yea, hapa should duel tomorrow!" There's not even a read in there, since he took no stance on who *SHOULD* be dueling. It was just jumping onto thread sentiment with no thoughts towards Hapa from himself.
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On February 26 2013 10:52 Oatsmaster wrote:
reads keirathi?
No solid reads yet. I'm interested in thrawn, obviously. The town thrawn I know is logical and takes his time to look at all sides of the situation, and I just haven't seen that from him this game. He's just been flying by the seat of his pants (iamp scum, no town, no scum again! Hapa should be a dueler tomorrow!) with little to no reasoning for his "reads".
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On February 26 2013 10:35 iamperfection wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 10:22 Acrofales wrote:On February 26 2013 09:50 iamperfection wrote:
i would like to
do zare vs snarf
or
zare vs kier
i would like to give hapa some more time.
Is there anyone that is with me? Tell me again why Thrawn is town. His calling you out is not enough given the rest of his play. I have played town with him once and he played well. I read 2 other of his town games and they were also fine. This is not his townplay. i just dont think he is stupid. call it gut or whatever but his last scum games he did not post at all like we are talking 4 or 5 posts.is it possible he is scum yeah but i think there are better candidates and my gut says he is town.
In his last scum-game, he didn't post much, but he said that was due more to activity than anything else. Have you considered Mafia LVIII? Howabout Mario Mini Mafia? He posted a decent amount in both those games (though he replaced out of Mario).
As for this game, his play is very drastically different from anything I've seen from town Thrawn. He's missing a lot of his characteristic humor, he's considerably more clammed up, and he's failing to justify any of his reads.
Unless Thrawn shits rainbows into the thread in the next 20 hours, he's definitely someone I want to see "dueled" this cycle.
Regarding Zapa // Dueler #2
I just don't see the scum that you do in him. He's reasonably active, and I don't think that "list-post" that you quoted as scummy is all that scummy. It just seems like a read-dump of his thought process. Non-allignment indicative.
Zapa's been trying to question people and go after reads. That's a lot more than some other players here. Snarf would be my #2, since he's literally done nothing up until this point. He offered a 1-sentence rationale about how he wanted me dead, then made two of the most non-committal reads ever on Thrawn and Kei.
On February 26 2013 04:38 Snarfs wrote:... Also, I didn't like this line from thrawn:It seems like a really weird mindset. Scared to attack... should be more like "pressure" or why would you back off... not "scared to attack" - that seems to be attempting to incite Oats as opposed to get a read on him. full quote: Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 11:16 thrawn2112 wrote:I don't like how quickly Oats backed down on his suspicions of marv. He goes from "kinda suspicious" to On February 25 2013 10:58 Oatsmaster wrote:
I would not say you were very mannered in LIX.
And suddenly marv turns on the SERIOUS MODE.
Its not scummy, its just not alignment indicative as oh good plan = town. so Oats, why so scared to attack marv? Going through last few pages now.
On February 26 2013 07:40 Snarfs wrote:As of now, I'd support a Keirathi/Hapa duel. I need to read more from thrawn as it's still just a weird feeling about him, nothing concrete. I haven't read yamato's case on him yet, it was a bit too long and I didn't have time.I agree Dein also looks flimsy but these two are my biggest concerns. Especially Keirathi's "catch up on the thread" followed by essentially mimicing + buddying marv: Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 01:09 Keirathi wrote:
Holy thread explosion, Batman.
Sorry, I got super busy yesterday afternoon, then when I got home last night my power was out. Catching up now. Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 02:47 Keirathi wrote:On February 26 2013 02:43 marvellosity wrote:On February 26 2013 02:38 thrawn2112 wrote:
as town he'd be a good player to pick the main lynch candidate. if he's not town then we can lynch him instead thrawn, this is all weak as shit. iamp was your scumread and then you were possibly suspicious of Acro, and now you randomly want to have Hapa call a duel? Remember, thrawn wasn't on-board witht he "two scummy people duel" idea. He said making all those policies was pointless. So thrawn, why exactly do you want Hapa to duel? Do you think he is scum, or town? What is your ideal scenario for a duel? A strong townie vs a scum suspect? Or two scum suspects against each other?
On February 26 2013 08:20 Snarfs wrote:
...
Keirathi's filter is shorter and easier to pick things out of. He made it clear he was going to look at the thread and perform analysis, but then didn't when noone pushed him for it. I guess, like marv said though, he could just be away... just the fact that he took time to create that one kinda terrible post though... I dunno, I don't like it.
...
He's not finding things scummy or questioning people. He's just making observations on things "he doesn't like".
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On February 26 2013 11:01 Keirathi wrote:No solid reads yet. I'm interested in thrawn, obviously. The town thrawn I know is logical and takes his time to look at all sides of the situation, and I just haven't seen that from him this game. He's just been flying by the seat of his pants (iamp scum, no town, no scum again! Hapa should be a dueler tomorrow!) with little to no reasoning for his "reads".
how the fuck can you not have a solid read yet....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
i just gave you my longest period silence ever becasue frankly keir if you dont have a solid read you must not be reading the thread which makes me think your scum.
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On February 26 2013 11:08 iamperfection wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 11:01 Keirathi wrote:On February 26 2013 10:52 Oatsmaster wrote:
reads keirathi? No solid reads yet. I'm interested in thrawn, obviously. The town thrawn I know is logical and takes his time to look at all sides of the situation, and I just haven't seen that from him this game. He's just been flying by the seat of his pants (iamp scum, no town, no scum again! Hapa should be a dueler tomorrow!) with little to no reasoning for his "reads". how the fuck can you not have a solid read yet.................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................... i just gave you my longest period silence ever becasue frankly keir if you dont have a solid read you must not be reading the thread which makes me think your scum.
I honestly haven't put a whole lot of effort into the game at this point because I've just been busy. I'm not going to force reads I don't believe in though, nor am I going to apologize for that.
You act like this is something new, though. In fact, iirc, this isn't even the first time you've made that statement about me on day 1 ("OMG you must be scum if you aren't sure about reads 24 hours into the game!"). Sorry, I'll work at my own pace and have reads when I have them.
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On February 26 2013 11:01 Keirathi wrote:No solid reads yet. I'm interested in thrawn, obviously. The town thrawn I know is logical and takes his time to look at all sides of the situation, and I just haven't seen that from him this game. He's just been flying by the seat of his pants (iamp scum, no town, no scum again! Hapa should be a dueler tomorrow!) with little to no reasoning for his "reads".
Do you have reads on anyone other than Thrawn? Town, scum... anything more would help.
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On February 26 2013 11:18 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 11:08 iamperfection wrote:On February 26 2013 11:01 Keirathi wrote:On February 26 2013 10:52 Oatsmaster wrote:
reads keirathi? No solid reads yet. I'm interested in thrawn, obviously. The town thrawn I know is logical and takes his time to look at all sides of the situation, and I just haven't seen that from him this game. He's just been flying by the seat of his pants (iamp scum, no town, no scum again! Hapa should be a dueler tomorrow!) with little to no reasoning for his "reads". how the fuck can you not have a solid read yet.................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................... i just gave you my longest period silence ever becasue frankly keir if you dont have a solid read you must not be reading the thread which makes me think your scum. I honestly haven't put a whole lot of effort into the game at this point because I've just been busy. I'm not going to force reads I don't believe in though, nor am I going to apologize for that. You act like this is something new, though. In fact, iirc, this isn't even the first time you've made that statement about me on day 1 ("OMG you must be scum if you aren't sure about reads 24 hours into the game!"). Sorry, I'll work at my own pace and have reads when I have them.
how about instead of pissing and moaning you do something.
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Snarfs isn't posting enough, but I don't think his reads are non-committal. He is clear about why he thinks Hapa is scum. He is clear about why he thinks Keirathi is scum. He says repeatedly he needs to read more on thrawn.
The fact that he largely agrees with Marv and my own reads before they were layed out clearly in the thread is also a point in his favour, although I don't know anything about Snarfs (never played with him or read many games by him).
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On February 26 2013 11:18 Hapahauli wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 11:01 Keirathi wrote:On February 26 2013 10:52 Oatsmaster wrote:
reads keirathi? No solid reads yet. I'm interested in thrawn, obviously. The town thrawn I know is logical and takes his time to look at all sides of the situation, and I just haven't seen that from him this game. He's just been flying by the seat of his pants (iamp scum, no town, no scum again! Hapa should be a dueler tomorrow!) with little to no reasoning for his "reads". Do you have reads on anyone other than Thrawn? Town, scum... anything more would help.
As a general rule, I don't share town reads unless 1) I am specifically asked for my thoughts on a person currently being discussed, or 2) said person is in danger of getting lynched.
I'll get back to you on more scum reads. Thrawn was the biggest "sticks out like a sore thumb" in my read through while I was on lunch break.
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I don't mean to change the topic but I'm looking through the last couple of pages and saw that everyone was considering having Thrawn duel. I looked back at his filter and through the arguments against him, and I see the merit in them.
I know I have been a hipster with a few of my scum reads (Syl, Oats), and I also know that if I want to get any of my reads pushed out to the forefront, part of that requires listening to others' reads as well.
I would support a Thrawn duel, but I also think that whoever we select to duel should be allowed to select their opponent in the duel. I think this would make it so we would prevent confirmation bias and allow for Thrawn's (or whoever we choose to duel) voice to still be heard even though he/they is/are on the chopping block. Does anyone else have a problem with that?
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why Cora? So they can choose lynchbait and get themselves off that way?
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On February 26 2013 11:47 Oatsmaster wrote:
why Cora? So they can choose lynchbait and get themselves off that way?
If they do that we will all know they chose lynchbait and it will make them look even scummier.
If you want to ask your top two scumreads to duel, go ahead. Remember that they have to pull the trigger and if they don't, we can't lynch them. That's the dilemma provided to us by the set-up.
It's all just set-up speculation. None of us know how this process is going to go. I feel like there is no fair way to go about this whole "dueling" thing, but forcing one person to duel and letting them choose the other seems like the fairest way to go about things.
Of course if you don't want to do it fairly you need to convince the town on two scum reads, which seems a lot harder than what I proposed. Do you have any alternatives?
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Oh yea, I forgot about this:
Adam
On February 25 2013 12:55 Adam4167 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 12:47 cDgCorazon wrote:On February 25 2013 12:39 Acrofales wrote:On February 25 2013 12:35 iamperfection wrote:On February 25 2013 12:33 Dienosore wrote:
@marv: I've already mentioned that I trust you. If you sincerely believe that he isn't scum, then I will reconsider my hard stance. However, I would be a fool to not remain extremely suspicious until something happens that definitively clears up the situation.
@Hapa: He didn't just make a post about me. He called me out for a duel with his first post based on my first post. To me, this screams scum. why would you think someone being super aggressive is scummy should mean the opposite no? Aggression isn't a scum- or a town-tell. Aggression is simply aggression. Case in point: Mocsta NMM 37. Also, VE is pretty aggressive as either alignment. Just to name some examples. That said, Adam tends to lurk wayyyy too much as scum. His activity and early pressure on Dieno are uncharacteristic for his scum play. Too early to really tell, though. I still think Adam is lurking. Compared to most of the other people so far, he has been picking and choosing his times to talk very sparingly. Making one argument against Dieno and kind of attacking me/kind of not attacking me is really a drop in the ocean compared to the activity level the rest of the town has shown. I dropped my interest in you right about the time you said you wanted the two most abrasive and against-the-grain players to duel each other. That said to me that you are just being an emotional townie who wanted to get rid of people who weren't conforming to how you wanted the game played. I doubt scum would be making an argument like that, hence I have no interest in probing you further.
On February 25 2013 13:28 Adam4167 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 13:06 cDgCorazon wrote:On February 25 2013 12:55 Adam4167 wrote:On February 25 2013 12:47 cDgCorazon wrote:On February 25 2013 12:39 Acrofales wrote:On February 25 2013 12:35 iamperfection wrote:On February 25 2013 12:33 Dienosore wrote:
@marv: I've already mentioned that I trust you. If you sincerely believe that he isn't scum, then I will reconsider my hard stance. However, I would be a fool to not remain extremely suspicious until something happens that definitively clears up the situation.
@Hapa: He didn't just make a post about me. He called me out for a duel with his first post based on my first post. To me, this screams scum. why would you think someone being super aggressive is scummy should mean the opposite no? Aggression isn't a scum- or a town-tell. Aggression is simply aggression. Case in point: Mocsta NMM 37. Also, VE is pretty aggressive as either alignment. Just to name some examples. That said, Adam tends to lurk wayyyy too much as scum. His activity and early pressure on Dieno are uncharacteristic for his scum play. Too early to really tell, though. I still think Adam is lurking. Compared to most of the other people so far, he has been picking and choosing his times to talk very sparingly. Making one argument against Dieno and kind of attacking me/kind of not attacking me is really a drop in the ocean compared to the activity level the rest of the town has shown. I dropped my interest in you right about the time you said you wanted the two most abrasive and against-the-grain players to duel each other. That said to me that you are just being an emotional townie who wanted to get rid of people who weren't conforming to how you wanted the game played. I doubt scum would be making an argument like that, hence I have no interest in probing you further. Seriously, I was asked the question based off of 3-4 pages of the thread... If you seriously want to go hung-ho and call all of the shots, go ahead. There's no point in arguing with you, and I doubt my crappy internet can beat you to typing ##Duel once the Night period is over. Let's imagine a gung-ho player decides to duel someone that they have a scum read on, but the rest of the town does not agree with their reasoning. How do you choose between someone playing aggressive and someone you have a town read on? It's either going to result in the gung-ho player getting lynched or making a lynch that you are not happy with. Both are a waste of a Day cycle and are free kills for the scum basically. That's my biggest problem with you and Yamato's approach to the duel system. The fact that Yamato called me scum for it and that you are calling me emotional over it is absolutely ridiculous. I call you emotional because I just cant see the logic behind wanting the two people causing the most discussion to duel each other. Mafia that sit in the spotlight almost always fry, and as a general rule, try to avoid it. The likelyhood of either of us being scum is not good as a result.
Adam came out all guns blazing with his "I'll duel someone when I feel its appropriate!" stance. But this passage of quotes is interesting, because he dropped his minor scumread on Cora because Cora's arguments made Adam look town. He doesn't care that Cora's argument is anti-town itself (Cora was interested in lynching yam or Adam because they were "disruptive" or whatever, not because he necessarily thought they were scum), only that he can use Cora's response to identify himself as town.
That suggests to me that the whole bravado thing at the start of the game could be an act, because Adam was already thinking of how he could get town cred from his stance even before Cora pointed out his problems with it.
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On February 26 2013 08:06 Hapahauli wrote:SnarfsI initially read his first post as enthusiastic, but the rest of his (short) filter reads as fake-contributions. Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 04:38 Snarfs wrote:On February 26 2013 03:29 Snarfs wrote:On February 25 2013 10:05 iamperfection wrote:On February 25 2013 03:06 Snarfs wrote:
Ahhh yesss!! Finally a game where I'm not mafia! It's been too long. Far too long.
Obvious rule number 1: no one calls for a duel unless we have a majority of the thread agreeing on it.
Obvious rule number 2: we use as much of the day as possible before calling for duels.
Anyone ignoring rules 1 or 2 should be put under extreme scrutiny for acting against town goals. this guy is the scummiest guy in the game so far in my view says he is excited he is town then proceeds to do nothing discuss. Lol, it was Sunday, I was out. Gimme a break, I'm catching up now. Update: Up to page 20 now and I would kill Hapa solely based on his reasoning for backing off on iamp. Didn't make any sense (others have said it) because iamp didn't change at all. Also, I didn't like this line from thrawn: so Oats, why so scared to attack marv? It seems like a really weird mindset. Scared to attack... should be more like "pressure" or why would you back off... not "scared to attack" - that seems to be attempting to incite Oats as opposed to get a read on him. full quote: On February 25 2013 11:16 thrawn2112 wrote:I don't like how quickly Oats backed down on his suspicions of marv. He goes from "kinda suspicious" to On February 25 2013 10:58 Oatsmaster wrote:
I would not say you were very mannered in LIX.
And suddenly marv turns on the SERIOUS MODE.
Its not scummy, its just not alignment indicative as oh good plan = town. so Oats, why so scared to attack marv? Going through last few pages now. He offers a neatly packaged reason for why he wants me dead. No debate, no nothing, he just supports killing me right away in one small sentence.
I'm still not sure why your stance flipped on iamp. It's very possible I missed your explanation of this already, but your reasoning at the time made zero sense given iamp's general aggressiveness never really changed. It looked exactly like yamato called it: making up an excuse to jump off of a wagon. If you've expanded on your reasoning, then I missed it and I still don't see it skimming quickly over your filter.
He then moves on to "attack" thrawn in the weakest manner ever. He doesn't call thrawn scummy. He just "doesn't like" one of his posts and calls it "weird," which is hilarious considering he's attacking thrawn for the very same thing.
Notably, he's never mentioned thrawn in any of his posts afterward, or has attempted to follow up on his questions to thrawn.
I still haven't had time to look more into thrawn's filter... As I said at the time, it was just a funny feeling from one of his posts. I haven't analyzed his play at all yet so I don't have much more to go on :/
Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 05:35 Snarfs wrote:On February 26 2013 05:12 cDgCorazon wrote:On February 26 2013 00:13 cDgCorazon wrote:
3. When I get home from school (in a few hours), I am going to re-read the pages with the whole go around between the TL veterans (basically everyone but the lurkers, me, Adam, Yamato, and Dieno). Maybe you haven't read the thread enough... Yea, I saw that. It just felt weird when hapa was a big focus that you didn't mention him at the time (other than to say you were going to look into it) so I made a note of it. Since marv and yamato seem pretty happy with you so far though, I'm not going to really push you on this one since it's not a big priority and would probably just derail things. As I said, just making a note of things. In this post, he again takes this really passive questioning of another player. He seemingly has reasons to think Corazon is scummy, but drops it because "Marv and Yamato are happy."
For the record, I currently don't think Corazon is scum. Pointing that out at the time was a mistake that I made. I should have just noted it down and continued reading, but since I was posting on my phone rather than computer, I didn't have anywhere to take notes so I just wrote it in the thread.
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On February 26 2013 11:47 Oatsmaster wrote:
why Cora? So they can choose lynchbait and get themselves off that way?
Only if a majority of town votes for the lynch bait. The idea is not entirely without merit. One of which is that we have no real way of preventing it.
Town has no way of forcing someone to duel (I presume, there may be powers of course), so whoever is going to duel will have to participate enough to challenge someone.
Now there's two scenarios:
1. The first duelist is town. In this case, it would be monumentally stupid play for a townie to duel someone he has a town read on. For instance, if Iamp is town, him dueling thrawn would be dumb, because he doesn't believe thrawn is scum (regardless of his reasons, you have to respect people's reads). Putting a townie in this situation is forcing that townie into a scenario he thinks is lose/lose: he chooses option C, to duel his scumread, the thread gets angry, lynches him and is down a townie.
2. The first duelist is scum. Lets assume the second scumread we want him to duel (assuming we can even agree on that) is a townie. Of course he agrees. He then tries his damndest to argue his way out of getting lynched. Maybe the fact that he was compliant persuades some townies to vote for his opponent. Now lets assume the second scumread is another scum. In this case the scum would be monumentally stupid to duel that opponent, as it is guaranteed scumdeath. He therefore picks his strongest scumread. How is this distinguishable from the town equivalent? Only by good analysis.
So, we need good analysis in all cases. Might as well do away with the bias from trying to force people to do shit they don't want to do. This way the scumspect also has to explain why he is dueling that person. And he'd better be convincing, or he'll end up being lynched anyway.
I like this plan quite a bit better than the original: this one has some of the kinks worked out of it 
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I dont know keirathi, it seems to me like he was just quoting a general statement which was when 2 people fight at the start of the game, they are likely to be both town as scum doesnt want the spotlight bla bla.
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Ninja'd by Cora, who states it better too!
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Wait so Acro, you are saying that when the thread agrees on 2 duel candidates, they are not forced to duel each other, yeah sure but how large a fucking scum claim is that?
The thing is that EITHER of the them could pull the trigger, so assuming that one is town, one is scum, its gonna happen, scum are forced to duel cause if they dont, they are claiming scum and even 1 for 1 trades arent that good.
Other thoughts?
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On February 26 2013 11:54 cDgCorazon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 11:47 Oatsmaster wrote:
why Cora? So they can choose lynchbait and get themselves off that way?
If they do that we will all know they chose lynchbait and it will make them look even scummier. If you want to ask your top two scumreads to duel, go ahead. Remember that they have to pull the trigger and if they don't, we can't lynch them. That's the dilemma provided to us by the set-up. It's all just set-up speculation. None of us know how this process is going to go. I feel like there is no fair way to go about this whole "dueling" thing, but forcing one person to duel and letting them choose the other seems like the fairest way to go about things. Of course if you don't want to do it fairly you need to convince the town on two scum reads, which seems a lot harder than what I proposed. Do you have any alternatives?
I agree with Oats on this one. it doesn't make them look scummier because it's impossible for us to say whether they thought the other person was lynchbait, or just mafia.
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EPT
