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On February 26 2013 12:08 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 11:47 Oatsmaster wrote:
why Cora? So they can choose lynchbait and get themselves off that way?
Only if a majority of town votes for the lynch bait. The idea is not entirely without merit. One of which is that we have no real way of preventing it. Town has no way of forcing someone to duel (I presume, there may be powers of course), so whoever is going to duel will have to participate enough to challenge someone. Now there's two scenarios: 1. The first duelist is town. In this case, it would be monumentally stupid play for a townie to duel someone he has a town read on. For instance, if Iamp is town, him dueling thrawn would be dumb, because he doesn't believe thrawn is scum (regardless of his reasons, you have to respect people's reads). Putting a townie in this situation is forcing that townie into a scenario he thinks is lose/lose: he chooses option C, to duel his scumread, the thread gets angry, lynches him and is down a townie. 2. The first duelist is scum. Lets assume the second scumread we want him to duel (assuming we can even agree on that) is a townie. Of course he agrees. He then tries his damndest to argue his way out of getting lynched. Maybe the fact that he was compliant persuades some townies to vote for his opponent. Now lets assume the second scumread is another scum. In this case the scum would be monumentally stupid to duel that opponent, as it is guaranteed scumdeath. He therefore picks his strongest scumread. How is this distinguishable from the town equivalent? Only by good analysis. So, we need good analysis in all cases. Might as well do away with the bias from trying to force people to do shit they don't want to do. This way the scumspect also has to explain why he is dueling that person. And he'd better be convincing, or he'll end up being lynched anyway. I like this plan quite a bit better than the original: this one has some of the kinks worked out of it 
Ah, actually Acro, I like your explanation better. This makes sense to me; forget what I was saying.
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On February 26 2013 12:19 Snarfs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 11:54 cDgCorazon wrote:On February 26 2013 11:47 Oatsmaster wrote:
why Cora? So they can choose lynchbait and get themselves off that way?
If they do that we will all know they chose lynchbait and it will make them look even scummier. If you want to ask your top two scumreads to duel, go ahead. Remember that they have to pull the trigger and if they don't, we can't lynch them. That's the dilemma provided to us by the set-up. It's all just set-up speculation. None of us know how this process is going to go. I feel like there is no fair way to go about this whole "dueling" thing, but forcing one person to duel and letting them choose the other seems like the fairest way to go about things. Of course if you don't want to do it fairly you need to convince the town on two scum reads, which seems a lot harder than what I proposed. Do you have any alternatives? I agree with Oats on this one. it doesn't make them look scummier because it's impossible for us to say whether they thought the other person was lynchbait, or just mafia.
It depends on who the other person chooses to duel with. It's going to be obvious (at this stage) whether they are choosing lynchbait or not.
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On February 26 2013 12:16 Oatsmaster wrote:
Wait so Acro, you are saying that when the thread agrees on 2 duel candidates, they are not forced to duel each other, yeah sure but how large a fucking scum claim is that?
The thing is that EITHER of the them could pull the trigger, so assuming that one is town, one is scum, its gonna happen, scum are forced to duel cause if they dont, they are claiming scum and even 1 for 1 trades arent that good.
Other thoughts?
There's no way that the whole thread is going to agree on 2 duel candidates, or even a majority of the thread will.
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On February 26 2013 12:16 Oatsmaster wrote:
Wait so Acro, you are saying that when the thread agrees on 2 duel candidates, they are not forced to duel each other, yeah sure but how large a fucking scum claim is that?
The thing is that EITHER of the them could pull the trigger, so assuming that one is town, one is scum, its gonna happen, scum are forced to duel cause if they dont, they are claiming scum and even 1 for 1 trades arent that good.
Other thoughts?
Did you miss the part at the bottom? He has to explain himself.
Of course, if 90% of the thread has consolidated on two targets, going against that is going to take some serious explaining, isn't it?
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I just dont feel as comfortable giving up so much control to a SCUMMY player.
This seems kinda like a mayoral lynch, except the mayor is scum, and its not instant lynch.
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On February 26 2013 12:34 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 12:16 Oatsmaster wrote:
Wait so Acro, you are saying that when the thread agrees on 2 duel candidates, they are not forced to duel each other, yeah sure but how large a fucking scum claim is that?
The thing is that EITHER of the them could pull the trigger, so assuming that one is town, one is scum, its gonna happen, scum are forced to duel cause if they dont, they are claiming scum and even 1 for 1 trades arent that good.
Other thoughts? Did you miss the part at the bottom? He has to explain himself. Of course, if 90% of the thread has consolidated on two targets, going against that is going to take some serious explaining, isn't it?
If 90% of the thread has consolidated on 2 targets we all have a problem in general.
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Much promised look at thrawn:
On February 25 2013 10:06 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2013 09:58 Acrofales wrote:On February 25 2013 09:53 thrawn2112 wrote:
I don't think much policy related thought needs to go into dueling. The more arbitrary rules and policies we try to enforce, the more rules and policies scum have available to hide their actions behind. Let the game flow naturally as to counteract unnatural reads brought on by unnatural/arbitrary policies.
lol, clearly this town ain't big enough. that much is already apparent
Those first posts are a bitch to write, aren't they? Way to say nothing! What do you think of yamato and cora? I'm not willing to commit to a read on cora yet. Nothing he's posted so far is all that alignment indicative, coming from him. As for yamato... maybe slighty town? I disagree with the logic behind nearly all of what he's said so far but he's acting in a townish manner. Iamp could be scum. All he's done is drop off a town read and comment on how useless the thread is.
a) I'm not sure how he got different feels from iamp and yamato early game. Both seemed quite abrasive and had an "i don't care what anyone thinks of me attitude". Once I warmed up to one of them being town, it was easy to warm up to the other being town - seems contradictory to find one's way of acting townish and the other mafia-esque.
b) I also see what people are saying about his random appearance trying to get hapa to duel someone when he was under pressure without any sort of explanation himself.
c) Also, his read on Acro and follow up feels like he thought that since he made this post: [link]
He feels like he should commit to a read on someone here: [link]
I don't think Acro is a worthy candidate. This line of thinking feels forced.
I'd definitely be fine with thrawn being one of the duelists.
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Oats if you have a better idea than to pick two people, hope that everyone agrees with those two people, and hope those two people duel each other, I'd love to hear it.
Your plan hinges on a lot more variables than the one I proposed (and Acro backs up).
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Also, if thrawn doesn't show up before the next 'X' hours before deadline, what do we do? Just have someone like yamato duel him?
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On February 26 2013 12:43 Snarfs wrote:
Also, if thrawn doesn't show up before the next 'X' hours before deadline, what do we do? Just have someone like yamato duel him?
If we all agree dodging a duel is an automatic lynch all we need is one person to duel them and we just immediately kill who dodged the duel.
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On February 26 2013 12:46 cDgCorazon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 12:43 Snarfs wrote:
Also, if thrawn doesn't show up before the next 'X' hours before deadline, what do we do? Just have someone like yamato duel him? If we all agree dodging a duel is an automatic lynch all we need is one person to duel them and we just immediately kill who dodged the duel.
kk, that makes sense.
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Ok so your plan is that we pick the one, and that person picks another to duel?
It just screams manipulation to me, like you are giving scum a way out of getting lynched, assuming the one we pick is scum.
Currently I dont have another plan, but I just dont think this is a good idea.
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On February 26 2013 12:57 Oatsmaster wrote:
Ok so your plan is that we pick the one, and that person picks another to duel?
It just screams manipulation to me, like you are giving scum a way out of getting lynched, assuming the one we pick is scum.
Currently I dont have another plan, but I just dont think this is a good idea.
Your plan screams "no-lynch" to me. At least we have a chance to kill off someone with my plan.
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My plan is that if no lynch is gonna happen, I will duel my top scumread.
Not good because generally my reads are not very good. Maybe this game its different? I dont know.
yes I just discredited myself.
But no lynch is definitely not happening.
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On February 26 2013 12:09 Oatsmaster wrote:
I dont know keirathi, it seems to me like he was just quoting a general statement which was when 2 people fight at the start of the game, they are likely to be both town as scum doesnt want the spotlight bla bla.
Right (well, not exactly, because yamato and Adam weren't fighting, just taking a strong stance that differed from thread sentiment). But he's using the "scum don't want to be in the spotlight" sentiment to make HIMSELF a townie.
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yeah,possibly. His activity here is better than in the other games Ive seen him in though, in chrono he was basically the epitome of a scummy lurker.
What do you think of cora's plan Keir?
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On February 26 2013 13:08 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2013 12:09 Oatsmaster wrote:
I dont know keirathi, it seems to me like he was just quoting a general statement which was when 2 people fight at the start of the game, they are likely to be both town as scum doesnt want the spotlight bla bla. Right (well, not exactly, because yamato and Adam weren't fighting, just taking a strong stance that differed from thread sentiment). But he's using the "scum don't want to be in the spotlight" sentiment to make HIMSELF a townie.
imo adam wasn't really putting himself in the spotlight the way yamato was
besides, this line of reasoning is pretty weak. anything else to say about adam?
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On February 26 2013 13:05 Oatsmaster wrote:
My plan is that if no lynch is gonna happen, I will duel my top scumread.
Not good because generally my reads are not very good. Maybe this game its different? I dont know.
yes I just discredited myself.
But no lynch is definitely not happening.
The interesting thing is when we do get to that situation where no-lynch is imminent, I think we will start to see some agendas pushed forward. Then we can figure out if they are scum pushed or town pushed. Perhaps that upside of your idea might cover all of the downsides...
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On February 26 2013 12:57 Oatsmaster wrote:
Ok so your plan is that we pick the one, and that person picks another to duel?
It just screams manipulation to me, like you are giving scum a way out of getting lynched, assuming the one we pick is scum.
Currently I dont have another plan, but I just dont think this is a good idea.
I don't really see how there is any manipulation.
I mean, lets say we as a town pick 2 people. Both of those people are going to do whatever they can to get the other lynched rather than themselves.
Now, lets say we only pick one person and tell them to pick their top scum read. Both will still do whatever they can to make sure the other gets lynched rather than themselves.
I do see a downside to this plan though. The quality of the person we pick's read is likely to be "worse" than the collective reasoning of the entire town. Granted that's not always the case (see Mayors who actually lynch scum), but in general I like keeping as much power in town hands as possible without arbitrarily distributing it to people we already deem are scummy every day.
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nah scum wont push anything if they are not under direct pressure, no duel = no lynch and no lynch is always good for scum.
The upside isnt there for scum, if they are not under suspicion for not dueling.
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EPT
