I sort of dislike this thread. When I take these tests I identify as ENTP, but realistically, the online tests are notoriously inaccurate. I definitely do get energy from interaction, but do value thought. When I am dealing with people in a context where accuracy of language and well thought out comments are necessary, I'll think it through, but when a much less formal atmosphere I will adapt and be loud/say random stuff.
Although at times introverts are looked down upon for their quietness, the OP seems to look down upon extroverts for what the OP seems to deem an excess of thoughtless words. While I do acknowledge that in general there would be more discrimination/negative thoughts regarding introverts due to the ratios of these personality types in society, the OP seems to put Introverts on a pedestal at the expense of extroverts. I never thought that one group had more or less potential than the other, and hence the first post seems to be a sort of condescending attack on extroverts.
Extroverts and introverts have potential in different ways. Introverts can learn to excel in the social sphere, and extroverts can learn to excel at internal thinking, and I do not think that the gross compartmentalization of these groups will resolve problems.
Wow. This was probably one of the most interesting articles I have ever read on TL. I just found out I am a ISTJ (at least according to one test). Barrin, I really appreciate the work you put into this article. I found this article to be both practical and interesting, and I now know more about myself. Keep up the good work .
This thread is kind of annoying. I subscribe to the Jungian theory and I understand that there are extroverts as well as introverts but the first post just reeks of snobbishness or arrogance. OP is bolstering the qualities of introverts by putting down extroverts as talking to much or not saying anything of value. I just don't understand.. do introverts really get that much hate because they don't like going out as much or don't talk as much in social settings.
Myth #1 – Introverts don’t like to talk. This is not true. Introverts just don’t talk unless they have something to say. They hate small talk. Get an introvert talking about something they are interested in, and they won’t shut up for days. They hate small talk, as in small talk is sooo unimportant and completely shallow. Yes, it kind of is, but its just sometimes how people interact with each other when they don't know each other too well. THIS IS HOW YOU MEET PEOPLE AND MAYBE MAKE FRIENDS. Holy shit, I hate small talk too, and I'm extroverted, I just do it because this is how people interact. I think what a more justified way to say this would be something like: Introverts in general tend not to socialize in a small talk format as much as extroverts, bam. Now you dispell the myth, but without the condescending attitude.
Myth #2 – Introverts are shy. Shyness has nothing to do with being an Introvert. Introverts are not necessarily afraid of people. What they need is a reason to interact. They don’t interact for the sake of interacting. If you want to talk to an Introvert, just start talking. Don’t worry about being polite. Don't really have a problem with this statement, but you make it seem like its the extroverts duty to please the introvert to be friends with them. I mean, it does go both ways, but yeah in general you'll find an extrovert will start the conversation.. which isn't necessarily bad.
Myth #3 – Introverts are rude. Introverts often don’t see a reason for beating around the bush with social pleasantries. They want everyone to just be real and honest. Unfortunately, this is not acceptable in most settings, so Introverts can feel a lot of pressure to fit in, which they find exhausting. This is the myth bust that might be the most condescending. Don't like beating around the bush with social pleasantries? This is just how people that don't know each other too well interact. You're saying that the way most of society interacts is shallow, no, its just the way it is. "They want everyone to be real and honest" - So you're saying no one is real and honest except introverts? I beg to differ and might suggest that how real and honest someone is has NOTHING to do with their alignment with introvert or extrovert
Myth #4 – Introverts don’t like people. On the contrary, Introverts intensely value the few friends they have. They can count their close friends on one hand. If you are lucky enough for an introvert to consider you a friend, you probably have a loyal ally for life. Once you have earned their respect as being a person of substance, you’re in. So basically only Introverts can understand who a true friend is, and extroverts don't value their true friends. I know this isn't what you're trying to say, but that's basically what it sounds like
Myth #5 – Introverts don’t like to go out in public. Nonsense. Introverts just don’t like to go out in public FOR AS LONG. They also like to avoid the complications that are involved in public activities. They take in data and experiences very quickly, and as a result, don’t need to be there for long to “get it.” They’re ready to go home, recharge, and process it all. In fact, recharging is absolutely crucial for Introverts. No problem with this explanation
Myth #6 – Introverts always want to be alone. Introverts are perfectly comfortable with their own thoughts. They think a lot. They daydream. They like to have problems to work on, puzzles to solve. But they can also get incredibly lonely if they don’t have anyone to share their discoveries with. They crave an authentic and sincere connection with ONE PERSON at a time. Good explanation, but I think you're trying to speak for too many introverts. I have a lot of introverted friends and they like to socialize too, they aren't always quiet, and they yes crave and authentic and sincere connection with one person, but so do extroverts..
Myth #7 – Introverts are weird. Introverts are often individualists. They don’t follow the crowd. They’d prefer to be valued for their novel ways of living. They think for themselves and because of that, they often challenge the norm. They don’t make most decisions based on what is popular or trendy. LOL. You subscribe to jungian theory and you're trying to put introverts all in a category of having a novel way of living and thinking differently or for themselves. Guess what, a lot of people think for themselves and challenge the norm DESPITE their affiliation with introvert or extrovert, this literally has nothing at all to do with it. In fact, since you subscribe to jungian theory let me show you something
ENTP - Ne, Ti, Fe, Si INTP - Ti, Ne, Si, Fe
An INTP and ENTP are quite similar relatively except the order of their functions. ENTP has Ne, first, and Si last. Guess what makes the most rebellious people -------- Ne and a low Si. For an INTP they follow Ne Second and Si third compared to ENTP. This is ironic because arguably an ENTP is much more rebellious and against the norm. (Anecdotal source, I am ENTP and one of my best friends is INTP, I am definitely much more ready to rebel while he will sometimes go with the norms more than i will. Not only is your explanation completely wrong logically, it is disingenuous to all extroverts and tries to put them in a box of "conformists."
Myth #8 – Introverts are aloof nerds. Introverts are people who primarily look inward, paying close attention to their thoughts and emotions. It’s not that they are incapable of paying attention to what is going on around them, it’s just that their inner world is much more stimulating and rewarding to them. No problem with this statement
Myth #9 – Introverts don’t know how to relax and have fun. Introverts typically relax at home or in nature, not in busy public places. Introverts are not thrill seekers and adrenaline junkies. If there is too much talking and noise going on, they shut down. Their brains are too sensitive to the neurotransmitter called Dopamine. Introverts and Extroverts have different dominant neuro-pathways. Just look it up. Not really that bad of a statement, but still almost completely wrong. I have a really good ISTP friend who is one of the BIGGEST thrill seekers I know. Furthermore my INFP and INTP friend are also big thrill seekers but in different ways entirely. Introverts and extroverts literally have no reason to be more ready to be thrill seekers than their extroverted counterparts. Maybe introverts are in generally less thrill seeking in meeting people, but still, not really. Not only is this negative towards extroverts, the statement tries to put introverts in a box where they aren't fun thrill seeking people.
Myth #10 – Introverts can fix themselves and become Extroverts. A world without Introverts would be a world with few scientists, musicians, artists, poets, filmmakers, doctors, mathematicians, writers, and philosophers. That being said, there are still plenty of techniques an Extrovert can learn in order to interact with Introverts. (Yes, I reversed these two terms on purpose to show you how biased our society is.) Introverts cannot “fix themselves” and deserve respect for their natural temperament and contributions to the human race. In fact, one study (Silverman, 1986) showed that the percentage of Introverts increases with IQ. So, introverts are smarter than extroverts and they are the only ones that can be scientists, musicians, artists, poets, filmmakers, doctors, mathematicians, writers, and philosophers? You're asking everyone to stop generalizing introverts and saying negative things towards them when you are doing THE EXACT SAME THING FOR EXTROVERTS.
According to OP: 1. Extroverts are shallow, introverts are more genuine. 2. Extroverts are social conformists where as introverts follow their own path. 3. Extroverts engage in small talk which is completely terrible. 4. Extroverts don't value their real friends. 5. Introverts are never thrill seekers and are open to new stimuli 6. Introverts are smarter on the IQ scale 7. Extroverts are not as capable as introverts at some highly respected careers (scientist, mathematical, artists) 8. Extroverts are completely 100% responsible for interacting with introverts, and if introverts aren't social its usually the extroverts fault.
OP: tl;dr introverts rock according to my psuedo science and extroverts are sucky shallow people go introverts.
On December 22 2012 10:49 Froadac wrote: I sort of dislike this thread. When I take these tests I identify as ENTP, but realistically, the online tests are notoriously inaccurate. I definitely do get energy from interaction, but do value thought. When I am dealing with people in a context where accuracy of language and well thought out comments are necessary, I'll think it through, but when a much less formal atmosphere I will adapt and be loud/say random stuff.
Although at times introverts are looked down upon for their quietness, the OP seems to look down upon extroverts for what the OP seems to deem an excess of thoughtless words. While I do acknowledge that in general there would be more discrimination/negative thoughts regarding introverts due to the ratios of these personality types in society, the OP seems to put Introverts on a pedestal at the expense of extroverts. I never thought that one group had more or less potential than the other, and hence the first post seems to be a sort of condescending attack on extroverts.
Extroverts and introverts have potential in different ways. Introverts can learn to excel in the social sphere, and extroverts can learn to excel at internal thinking, and I do not think that the gross compartmentalization of these groups will resolve problems.
Indeed. The distinction betwixt an extrovert and introvert cannot be ever accurately judged because people change at various points in life. I was mostly an introvert at a younger age. I still abstain from pointless discussions and conversations and value true insight rather than a conjecture based on emotion alone. However, I believe I was better able to command people into my rail of reasoning as I grew. Now, it is part of my job to interact with many people and present my ideas. Therefore, I am not an introvert in the traditional sense, and yet I cannot be classified as a true extrovert either. The initiator of this thread's terminology, `ambivert' might apply - perhaps leaning more towards the qualities of introversion discussed herein.
Briefly: A human changes in various stages of life. The dictionary meaning of both the words -- introvert and extrovert cannot accurately describe any person today. The train of thought shifts it's track - no longer following the original one.
Edit: Does anyone else think that I tend to write in archaic English? I never realised.
On December 22 2012 09:54 ampson wrote: First off, that is a terribly obnoxious way to format the first post. A line between each quote and famous introvert? You could at least have spoilered that stuff and made it easier to read. It's a nice post detailing a certain type of personality according to a certain person, but I feel like it is promoting the use of creating a label for oneself to better your self esteem. Nobody needs to know that they're a (insert 4 letters here) and that they have all of the traits that somebody says that personality type has and that that makes them a special snowflake. I like to keep people out of boxes and take them for what they are. I'm sure that everyone has qualities from every "personality type" and just because someone is an INTJ doesn't mean they are a "Silent leader."
I also don't get why you feel like introverts are seen as less valuable by society. Your "problem" is that being outgoing and having social successes is considered to be a good thing by society. That's not a problem at all. Why should we think that social situations are a bad thing? Nobody can help the fact that someone who is insecure with themselves might feel pressured to do what other people do. That's just something that people have to live with and get over, and I suppose that kind of person can be helped by all this introvert pride stuff in the OP. The OP is certainly useful at addressing the problem, but that problem lies within someone who is not self-assured enough to not do what extroverts want to do. Society can't help that. And you may not realize it, but some of those videos/interviews reek of condescension.
Are you saying that introverts want to be extroverts but cant due to some kind of inferiority complex?
On December 22 2012 09:54 ampson wrote: First off, that is a terribly obnoxious way to format the first post. A line between each quote and famous introvert? You could at least have spoilered that stuff and made it easier to read. It's a nice post detailing a certain type of personality according to a certain person, but I feel like it is promoting the use of creating a label for oneself to better your self esteem. Nobody needs to know that they're a (insert 4 letters here) and that they have all of the traits that somebody says that personality type has and that that makes them a special snowflake. I like to keep people out of boxes and take them for what they are. I'm sure that everyone has qualities from every "personality type" and just because someone is an INTJ doesn't mean they are a "Silent leader."
I also don't get why you feel like introverts are seen as less valuable by society. Your "problem" is that being outgoing and having social successes is considered to be a good thing by society. That's not a problem at all. Why should we think that social situations are a bad thing? Nobody can help the fact that someone who is insecure with themselves might feel pressured to do what other people do. That's just something that people have to live with and get over, and I suppose that kind of person can be helped by all this introvert pride stuff in the OP. The OP is certainly useful at addressing the problem, but that problem lies within someone who is not self-assured enough to not do what extroverts want to do. Society can't help that. And you may not realize it, but some of those videos/interviews reek of condescension.
Are you saying that introverts want to be extroverts but cant due to some kind of inferiority complex?
I'm saying that introverts who lack confidence in themselves will imitate extroverts, because extroverts are naturally more visible in social situations. According to the OP, this is a problem. But as I said, it isn't society's problem.
I don't know about this extroversion vs. introversion debate, but the Myers-Briggs personality types are fascinating to me. I used to be strongly INFP in high school, but retaking the tests today I kept getting INTJ, with slight preferences in the thinking/judging. I wonder if this means I've matured some or have just mellowed out. After all, INFPs are supposedly 'the dreamers' or 'the idealists'. The things that haven't changed are the 25% preference for intuition and 89% introversion (lol).
More on topic: As a teenager, I used to be intensely introverted and avoided conversation, but I don't anymore. I'm still introverted but I don't have problems talking to people. I just don't find a lot of conversation to be as worthwhile as say, a good book. Anyway, people change. You will adapt because you have to. I find that there's nothing wrong with introversion, or extroversion. You will need both along the way.
I am Barrin and I'm highly Introverted. The tests (and extensive introspection/research) tell me I am INTJ which is the most introverted and one of the rarest of the 16 personality types.
I think most introverts would be the first to tell you that there are greater problems in the world than ours. Nevertheless, I would like to testify that we do indeed have often debilitating problems that are both unnecessary and avoidable.
In introverted fashion I'd rather not detail my own problems and history.. but I have been running (if you could call it that) on very low 'energy' for far too long now. Thankfully after learning what it took to make this my confidence has skyrocketed and my resolve is solid; I'm finally getting the cold certainty (borderline arrogance) characteristic of INTJ's.
Anyways, some parts from three sites I listed earlier (keirsey.com, personalitypage.com, and typelogic.com) do an interestingly good job of explaining large parts of who I am. It's like some one-time freakishly accurate & reasonably detailed horoscope.
If you're not already tired with this stuff ^^, [an extrovert?] might find it a an interesting exercise to test their iNtuition and/or Feeling by taking what they know about me(*) and trying to figure out why I think the following bolded parts apply to me. Thorough self-reflection is a highly introverted activity, but that I actually express it is distinctly extroverted. * = + Show Spoiler +
On TL I'm known for being a banling, making maps, creating mapping theories (Circle Syndrome), promoting a brighter future for SC2 (FRB), and I suppose my creation here is right in front of you.
I'm definitely Introverted. I mainly rely on iNtuition but Sensing is still second nature when I need it. A Feeling tendency didn't help me (or anyone) much when I was younger, so I've been driven to adopt Thinking which is now a little dominant. I carefully plan and am often decisive with Judging until the really big questions where I prefer to be flexible & open like a Perceiver.
... Complex operations involve many steps or stages, one following another in a necessary progression, and Masterminds are naturally able to grasp how each one leads to the next, and to prepare alternatives for difficulties that are likely to arise any step of the way. Trying to anticipate every contingency, Masterminds never set off on their current project without a Plan A firmly in mind, but they are always prepared to switch to Plan B or C or D if need be. ... Although they are highly capable leaders, Masterminds are not at all eager to take command, preferring to stay in the background until others demonstrate their inability to lead. Once they take charge, however, they are thoroughgoing pragmatists. ... Problem-solving is highly stimulating to Masterminds, who love responding to tangled systems that require careful sorting out. ... they are more interested in moving an organization forward than dwelling on mistakes of the past. ... Masterminds tend to be much more definite and self-confident than other Rationals, having usually developed a very strong will. Decisions come easily to them; in fact, they can hardly rest until they have things settled and decided. But before they decide anything, they must do the research. Masterminds are highly theoretical, but they insist on looking at all available data before they embrace an idea, and they are suspicious of any statement that is based on shoddy research, or that is not checked against reality.
INTJs live in the world of ideas and strategic planning. They value intelligence, knowledge, and competence, and typically have high standards in these regards, which they continuously strive to fulfill. To a somewhat lesser extent, they have similar expectations of others. ... They are tremendously insightful and usually are very quick to understand new ideas. ... The internal form of the INTJ's thoughts and concepts is highly individualized, and is not readily translatable into a form that others will understand. However, the INTJ is driven to translate their ideas into a plan or system that is usually readily explainable, rather than to do a direct translation of their thoughts. They usually don't see the value of a direct transaction, and will also have difficulty expressing their ideas, which are non-linear. However, their extreme respect of knowledge and intelligence will motivate them to explain themselves to another person who they feel is deserving of the effort. ... INTJs are natural leaders, although they usually choose to remain in the background until they see a real need to take over the lead. When they are in leadership roles, they are quite effective, because they are able to objectively see the reality of a situation, and are adaptable enough to change things which aren't working well. They are the supreme strategists - always scanning available ideas and concepts and weighing them against their current strategy, to plan for every conceivable contingency. ... The INTJ's interest in dealing with the world is to make decisions, express judgments, and put everything that they encounter into an understandable and rational system. Consequently, they are quick to express judgments. Often they have very evolved intuitions, and are convinced that they are right about things. ... INTJs are ambitious, self-confident, deliberate, long-range thinkers. ... Other people may have a difficult time understanding an INTJ. They may see them as aloof and reserved. Indeed, the INTJ is not overly demonstrative of their affections, and is likely to not give as much praise or positive support as others may need or desire. That doesn't mean that he or she doesn't truly have affection or regard for others, they simply do not typically feel the need to express it. ... INTJs have a tremendous amount of ability to accomplish great things. They have insight into the Big Picture, and are driven to synthesize their concepts into solid plans of action. Their reasoning skills gives them the means to accomplish that. INTJs are most always highly competent people, and will not have a problem meeting their career or education goals. They have the capability to make great strides in these arenas. On a personal level, the INTJ who practices tolerances and puts effort into effectively communicating their insights to others has everything in his or her power to lead a rich and rewarding life.
To outsiders, INTJs may appear to project an aura of "definiteness", of self-confidence. This self-confidence, sometimes mistaken for simple arrogance by the less decisive, is actually of a very specific rather than a general nature; its source lies in the specialized knowledge systems that most INTJs start building at an early age. When it comes to their own areas of expertise -- and INTJs can have several -- they will be able to tell you almost immediately whether or not they can help you, and if so, how. INTJs know what they know, and perhaps still more importantly, they know what they don't know.
INTJs are perfectionists, with a seemingly endless capacity for improving upon anything that takes their interest. What prevents them from becoming chronically bogged down in this pursuit of perfection is the pragmatism so characteristic of the type: INTJs apply (often ruthlessly) the criterion "Does it work?" to everything from their own research efforts to the prevailing social norms. ... INTJs are known as the "Systems Builders" of the types, perhaps in part because they possess the unusual trait combination of imagination and reliability. Whatever system an INTJ happens to be working on is for them the equivalent of a moral cause to an INFJ. ... Anyone considered to be "slacking," including superiors, will lose their respect -- and will generally be made aware of this. ... On the other hand, they do tend to be scrupulous and even-handed about recognizing the individual contributions that have gone into a project, and have a gift for seizing opportunities which others might not even notice. ... To complicate matters, INTJs are usually extremely private people, and can often be naturally impassive as well, which makes them easy to misread and misunderstand. Perhaps the most fundamental problem, however, is that INTJs really want people to make sense. :-) This sometimes results in a peculiar naivete', paralleling that of many Fs. ...
Architects need not be thought of as only interested in drawing blueprints for buildings or roads or bridges. They are the master designers of all kinds of theoretical systems, including school curricula, corporate strategies, and new technologies. For Architects, the world exists primarily to be analyzed, understood, explained - and re-designed. External reality in itself is unimportant, little more than raw material to be organized into structural models. What is important for Architects is that they grasp fundamental principles and natural laws, and that their designs are elegant, that is, efficient and coherent.
Architects are rare - maybe one percent of the population - and show the greatest precision in thought and speech of all the types. They tend to see distinctions and inconsistencies instantaneously, and can detect contradictions no matter when or where they were made. It is difficult for an Architect to listen to nonsense, even in a casual conversation, without pointing out the speaker's error. And in any serious discussion or debate Architects are devastating, their skill in framing arguments giving them an enormous advantage. Architects regard all discussions as a search for understanding, and believe their function is to eliminate inconsistencies, which can make communication with them an uncomfortable experience for many.
Architects are driven to find the most efficient means to their ends, and they will learn in any manner and degree they can. They will listen to amateurs if their ideas are useful, and will ignore the experts if theirs are not. Authority derived from office, credential, or celebrity does not impress them. Architects are interested only in what make sense, and thus only statements that are consistent and coherent carry any weight with them.
Architects often seem difficult to know. They are inclined to be shy except with close friends, and their reserve is difficult to penetrate. Able to concentrate better than any other type, they prefer to work quietly at their computers or drafting tables, and often alone. Architects also become obsessed with analysis, and this can seem to shut others out. Once caught up in a thought process, Architects close off and persevere until they comprehend the issue in all its complexity. Architects prize intelligence, and with their grand desire to grasp the structure of the universe, they can seem arrogant and may show impatience with others who have less ability, or who are less driven.
... INTPs live in the world of theoretical possibilities. They see everything in terms of how it could be improved, or what it could be turned into. They live primarily inside their own minds, having the ability to analyze difficult problems, identify patterns, and come up with logical explanations. They seek clarity in everything, and are therefore driven to build knowledge. They are the "absent-minded professors", who highly value intelligence and the ability to apply logic to theories to find solutions. They typically are so strongly driven to turn problems into logical explanations, that they live much of their lives within their own heads, and may not place as much importance or value on the external world. Their natural drive to turn theories into concrete understanding may turn into a feeling of personal responsibility to solve theoretical problems, and help society move towards a higher understanding.
INTPs value knowledge above all else. Their minds are constantly working to generate new theories, or to prove or disprove existing theories. They approach problems and theories with enthusiasm and skepticism, ignoring existing rules and opinions and defining their own approach to the resolution. They seek patterns and logical explanations for anything that interests them. They're usually extremely bright, and able to be objectively critical in their analysis. They love new ideas, and become very excited over abstractions and theories. They love to discuss these concepts with others. They may seem "dreamy" and distant to others, because they spend a lot of time inside their minds musing over theories. They hate to work on routine things - they would much prefer to build complex theoretical solutions, and leave the implementation of the system to others. They are intensely interested in theory, and will put forth tremendous amounts of time and energy into finding a solution to a problem with has piqued their interest.
INTPs do not like to lead or control people. They're very tolerant and flexible in most situations, unless one of their firmly held beliefs has been violated or challenged, in which case they may take a very rigid stance. The INTP is likely to be very shy when it comes to meeting new people. On the other hand, the INTP is very self-confident and gregarious around people they know well, or when discussing theories which they fully understand. ... For the INTP, it is extremely important that ideas and facts are expressed correctly and succinctly. They are likely to express themselves in what they believe to be absolute truths. Sometimes, their well thought-out understanding of an idea is not easily understandable by others, but the INTP is not naturally likely to tailor the truth so as to explain it in an understandable way to others. The INTP may be prone to abandoning a project once they have figured it out, moving on to the next thing. It's important that the INTP place importance on expressing their developed theories in understandable ways. In the end, an amazing discovery means nothing if you are the only person who understands it.
The INTP is usually very independent, unconventional, and original. They are not likely to place much value on traditional goals such as popularity and security. They usually have complex characters, and may tend to be restless and temperamental. They are strongly ingenious, and have unconventional thought patterns which allows them to analyze ideas in new ways. Consequently, a lot of scientific breakthroughs in the world have been made by the INTP.
The INTP is at his best when he can work on his theories independently. When given an environment which supports his creative genius and possible eccentricity, the INTP can accomplish truly remarkable things. These are the pioneers of new thoughts in our society.
INTPs are pensive, analytical folks. They may venture so deeply into thought as to seem detached, and often actually are oblivious to the world around them.
Precise about their descriptions, INTPs will often correct others (or be sorely tempted to) if the shade of meaning is a bit off. While annoying to the less concise, this fine discrimination ability gives INTPs so inclined a natural advantage as, for example, grammarians and linguists.
INTPs are relatively easy-going and amenable to almost anything until their principles are violated, about which they may become outspoken and inflexible. They prefer to return, however, to a reserved albeit benign ambiance, not wishing to make spectacles of themselves. ... Mathematics is a system where many INTPs love to play, similarly languages, computer systems--potentially any complex system. INTPs thrive on systems. Understanding, exploring, mastering, and manipulating systems can overtake the INTP's conscious thought. This fascination for logical wholes and their inner workings is often expressed in a detachment from the environment, a concentration where time is forgotten and extraneous stimuli are held at bay. Accomplishing a task or goal with this knowledge is secondary.
INTPs and Logic -- One of the tipoffs that a person is an INTP is her obsession with logical correctness. Errors are not often due to poor logic -- apparent faux pas in reasoning are usually a result of overlooking details or of incorrect context. Games NTs seem to especially enjoy include Risk, Bridge, Stratego, Chess, Go, and word games of all sorts. ...
All 16 personality types have their strengths and weaknesses, and all of them are valuable to society. Introverted or not, the best way to attain your full potential is to reach out to your fellow humans and use their strengths to complement your weaknesses. Indeed, the smarter you are the more you should realize that you really don't know much.
Yes, I sacrificed several hours of hang-out time with friends to make this. Was it worth it? Yes. BTW <3 everyone at TL - many smart people, I dare say many introverts - I've often been able to draw energy from (rightfully earned) appreciation of my works here which has actually helped me significantly.
You guys are awesome, thanks for reading. Gogo Dec 21, 2012 new beginning / awakening / intellectual and spiritual revolution!!!
Just wanted to say I'm INTJ as well, and I've got low self-esteem (I'd say mostly due to a terrible childhood) . This thread has helped me with my self-esteem quite a bit, and has shown me ways to explain to people that I'm not just shy and it's not much of a problem really.
I've always been fighting to be more social and all, and these days I'd like to have a friend or two, but I'm pretty okay with not having one either. I don't find it sad, I like being by myself and having a good conversation with myself just as much as having one with a close friend.
But what I struggle the most is with girls. I can talk to them like I talk to any guy, but when it comes to flirting, except cracking a few sex jokes, I don't find it stimulating at all, so flirting (and small talk) really feels like chores to me.
Is it just me or is silence the most underrated thing ever. I love being with a person that is comfterable with silence. You can just sit and look around for 3-4 minutes without saying a word. Sometimes when i'm with a person and i have nothing to say i can just sit and look at that person and do faces and body language. Some just dont get it and id it's silent for more then 10 seconds they say "awkward" with a singing voice. Then i just smile and keep quiet. Fuck i hate people that have to talk all the damn time about their uninteresting life. Just needed to get that out of my system.
I absolutely hate small talk. I get considered socially awkward, which I like because it means people won't talk to me! However, I just wish people could understand who I was, people often get the impression that just because I don't want to talk to them, doesn't mean I don't like them. As an introvert, I do actually like be invited out every now and then to do stuff, even though I won't necessarily enjoy it. I do like to do my share when it comes to socializing.
On December 22 2012 11:47 glabius wrote: This thread is kind of annoying. I subscribe to the Jungian theory and I understand that there are extroverts as well as introverts but the first post just reeks of snobbishness or arrogance. OP is bolstering the qualities of introverts by putting down extroverts as talking to much or not saying anything of value. I just don't understand.. do introverts really get that much hate because they don't like going out as much or don't talk as much in social settings.
Myth #1 – Introverts don’t like to talk. This is not true. Introverts just don’t talk unless they have something to say. They hate small talk. Get an introvert talking about something they are interested in, and they won’t shut up for days. They hate small talk, as in small talk is sooo unimportant and completely shallow. Yes, it kind of is, but its just sometimes how people interact with each other when they don't know each other too well. THIS IS HOW YOU MEET PEOPLE AND MAYBE MAKE FRIENDS. Holy shit, I hate small talk too, and I'm extroverted, I just do it because this is how people interact. I think what a more justified way to say this would be something like: Introverts in general tend not to socialize in a small talk format as much as extroverts, bam. Now you dispell the myth, but without the condescending attitude.
Myth #2 – Introverts are shy. Shyness has nothing to do with being an Introvert. Introverts are not necessarily afraid of people. What they need is a reason to interact. They don’t interact for the sake of interacting. If you want to talk to an Introvert, just start talking. Don’t worry about being polite. Don't really have a problem with this statement, but you make it seem like its the extroverts duty to please the introvert to be friends with them. I mean, it does go both ways, but yeah in general you'll find an extrovert will start the conversation.. which isn't necessarily bad.
Myth #3 – Introverts are rude. Introverts often don’t see a reason for beating around the bush with social pleasantries. They want everyone to just be real and honest. Unfortunately, this is not acceptable in most settings, so Introverts can feel a lot of pressure to fit in, which they find exhausting. This is the myth bust that might be the most condescending. Don't like beating around the bush with social pleasantries? This is just how people that don't know each other too well interact. You're saying that the way most of society interacts is shallow, no, its just the way it is. "They want everyone to be real and honest" - So you're saying no one is real and honest except introverts? I beg to differ and might suggest that how real and honest someone is has NOTHING to do with their alignment with introvert or extrovert
Myth #4 – Introverts don’t like people. On the contrary, Introverts intensely value the few friends they have. They can count their close friends on one hand. If you are lucky enough for an introvert to consider you a friend, you probably have a loyal ally for life. Once you have earned their respect as being a person of substance, you’re in. So basically only Introverts can understand who a true friend is, and extroverts don't value their true friends. I know this isn't what you're trying to say, but that's basically what it sounds like
Myth #5 – Introverts don’t like to go out in public. Nonsense. Introverts just don’t like to go out in public FOR AS LONG. They also like to avoid the complications that are involved in public activities. They take in data and experiences very quickly, and as a result, don’t need to be there for long to “get it.” They’re ready to go home, recharge, and process it all. In fact, recharging is absolutely crucial for Introverts. No problem with this explanation
Myth #6 – Introverts always want to be alone. Introverts are perfectly comfortable with their own thoughts. They think a lot. They daydream. They like to have problems to work on, puzzles to solve. But they can also get incredibly lonely if they don’t have anyone to share their discoveries with. They crave an authentic and sincere connection with ONE PERSON at a time. Good explanation, but I think you're trying to speak for too many introverts. I have a lot of introverted friends and they like to socialize too, they aren't always quiet, and they yes crave and authentic and sincere connection with one person, but so do extroverts..
Myth #7 – Introverts are weird. Introverts are often individualists. They don’t follow the crowd. They’d prefer to be valued for their novel ways of living. They think for themselves and because of that, they often challenge the norm. They don’t make most decisions based on what is popular or trendy. LOL. You subscribe to jungian theory and you're trying to put introverts all in a category of having a novel way of living and thinking differently or for themselves. Guess what, a lot of people think for themselves and challenge the norm DESPITE their affiliation with introvert or extrovert, this literally has nothing at all to do with it. In fact, since you subscribe to jungian theory let me show you something
ENTP - Ne, Ti, Fe, Si INTP - Ti, Ne, Si, Fe
An INTP and ENTP are quite similar relatively except the order of their functions. ENTP has Ne, first, and Si last. Guess what makes the most rebellious people -------- Ne and a low Si. For an INTP they follow Ne Second and Si third compared to ENTP. This is ironic because arguably an ENTP is much more rebellious and against the norm. (Anecdotal source, I am ENTP and one of my best friends is INTP, I am definitely much more ready to rebel while he will sometimes go with the norms more than i will. Not only is your explanation completely wrong logically, it is disingenuous to all extroverts and tries to put them in a box of "conformists."
Myth #8 – Introverts are aloof nerds. Introverts are people who primarily look inward, paying close attention to their thoughts and emotions. It’s not that they are incapable of paying attention to what is going on around them, it’s just that their inner world is much more stimulating and rewarding to them. No problem with this statement
Myth #9 – Introverts don’t know how to relax and have fun. Introverts typically relax at home or in nature, not in busy public places. Introverts are not thrill seekers and adrenaline junkies. If there is too much talking and noise going on, they shut down. Their brains are too sensitive to the neurotransmitter called Dopamine. Introverts and Extroverts have different dominant neuro-pathways. Just look it up. Not really that bad of a statement, but still almost completely wrong. I have a really good ISTP friend who is one of the BIGGEST thrill seekers I know. Furthermore my INFP and INTP friend are also big thrill seekers but in different ways entirely. Introverts and extroverts literally have no reason to be more ready to be thrill seekers than their extroverted counterparts. Maybe introverts are in generally less thrill seeking in meeting people, but still, not really. Not only is this negative towards extroverts, the statement tries to put introverts in a box where they aren't fun thrill seeking people.
Myth #10 – Introverts can fix themselves and become Extroverts. A world without Introverts would be a world with few scientists, musicians, artists, poets, filmmakers, doctors, mathematicians, writers, and philosophers. That being said, there are still plenty of techniques an Extrovert can learn in order to interact with Introverts. (Yes, I reversed these two terms on purpose to show you how biased our society is.) Introverts cannot “fix themselves” and deserve respect for their natural temperament and contributions to the human race. In fact, one study (Silverman, 1986) showed that the percentage of Introverts increases with IQ. So, introverts are smarter than extroverts and they are the only ones that can be scientists, musicians, artists, poets, filmmakers, doctors, mathematicians, writers, and philosophers? You're asking everyone to stop generalizing introverts and saying negative things towards them when you are doing THE EXACT SAME THING FOR EXTROVERTS.
According to OP: 1. Extroverts are shallow, introverts are more genuine. 2. Extroverts are social conformists where as introverts follow their own path. 3. Extroverts engage in small talk which is completely terrible. 4. Extroverts don't value their real friends. 5. Introverts are never thrill seekers and are open to new stimuli 6. Introverts are smarter on the IQ scale 7. Extroverts are not as capable as introverts at some highly respected careers (scientist, mathematical, artists) 8. Extroverts are completely 100% responsible for interacting with introverts, and if introverts aren't social its usually the extroverts fault.
OP: tl;dr introverts rock according to my psuedo science and extroverts are sucky shallow people go introverts.
You took one section of the whole post that wasn't even written by the OP and took it for the OP's opinion. If you read the thread he said he compiled documents from various internet sources. There may be a slight introvert bias in the "myths" section but I think you're reading too much into it.
Hm, some of the people saying that the society, as is, is for the extroverted, might be failing to see the point of this thread and its like. Obviously this thread hopes to change society such that introversion's more valuable traits will become more valued, and some of extroversion's worst be devalued.
It also hopes to instill some confidence into BOTH individualistic introverts and, as some people have put it, the "socially awkward who look to labels for acceptance". Who's to say having these avenues of excuse and confidence won't benefit the latter party in the long run? Sure, initially it might cause much shifting of blame and whatnot, but because it forces such individuals to stand out and argue their stand, society will correct them, they could likely turn out to become more mature and useful members of society, when the alternative would be to remain anonymous and less productive.
If believe Barrin feels this thread has both pros and cons, and that the pros outweigh the cons. r.Evo has done a good job of identifying the problems such a label will have, especially if it becomes widespread in its usage as an avenue of blame delegation. Mstring's view transcends this and is in no way false, but is not very helpful in this context. If society were to be so responsible for their personal choices and growth, you would see much less of religiosity. Not gon' happen, at least not in the near future. But yes, I know you don't care for that.
I'm someone who would most likely identify as an introvert, I did MBTI in middle school and was INFP, but I've most likely 'changed' now already. However, prior to doing the test I was already aware of the nuances of my personality and identified certain key concepts of being an introvert while having no knowledge of such. Namely being able to relate better with a small group and being choosy with friends, preferring to not talk unless asked to, or feel greatly compelled to, and recharging my batteries while alone, while social excursions leave me drained. I do feel the labeling of introversion and extroversion has its merits, and some concepts are grounded properly, although it can have its fair share of cold reading, much like horoscopes.
I am most interested in the neurochemistry of introverts and extroverts though, as it can prove to be most factual of any attempts at validating this concept. In the early pages someone posted a link regarding how IN's and EX's actually have different pathways and how IN's are more sensitive to dopamine. This is definitely true, at least for me. In fact, I am also diagnosed with Migraine with Aura (and other debilitating symptoms and side-effects that come with it, damn), and I;m curious to know how many other self-professed introverts in this thread are afflicted with the same condition. I am almost convinced there is a correlation between the two, at least that introverts are more likely to have this condition. And in case anyone deduces my condition caused my introversion, I had it surface after my identification with introversion.
I have to ask... Does anyone else get a sick feeling in their stomach when they are going out to parties or other large social gatherings?
I'm really socially awkward when I'm first getting to know people because I just really don't know what to say but I warm up I guess and get a lot more comfortable talking to people as time goes on. I also have a really hard time looking at people in the eyes for some reason.
I sort of don't have any close friends at the moment. I had a really close friend (we got voted "attached at the hip" for year book lol) and lots of friends who I would hang out with every day in highschool and go drinking and snowboarding and stuff but after graduation I sort of stopped hanging out with them and my really good friend went through some really tough shit and turned into a real scum bag and we have not talked in over a year now...
The closest friends I do have are people I met online playing Guild Wars like 6 years ago and we all still hang out and game.
The only person I really spend lots of time with is my girlfriend and thankfully we share almost all of our interests and she's pretty introverted too.
On December 22 2012 15:05 tokicheese wrote: I have to ask... Does anyone else get a sick feeling in their stomach when they are going out to parties or other large social gatherings?
I'm really socially awkward when I'm first getting to know people because I just really don't know what to say but I warm up I guess and get a lot more comfortable talking to people as time goes on. I also have a really hard time looking at people in the eyes for some reason.
I sort of don't have any close friends at the moment. I had a really close friend (we got voted "attached at the hip" for year book lol) and lots of friends who I would hang out with every day in highschool and go drinking and snowboarding and stuff but after graduation I sort of stopped hanging out with them and my really good friend went through some really tough shit and turned into a real scum bag and we have not talked in over a year now...
The closest friends I do have are people I met online playing Guild Wars like 6 years ago and we all still hang out and game.
The only person I really spend lots of time with is my girlfriend and thankfully we share almost all of our interests and she's pretty introverted too.
Same for me basicly. Then i got a "girl blog" kind of question... Where do you meet ladys that are introvert? I've always been around pretty extrovert people and they always hang out with likewise extrovert people. For some reason extrovert people find me interesting. I've always had good friends but i've never had friends wich whom i share the same interests, strangely. I've always tried to fit in but never found anywhere i really feel comfortable. Whenever people try to group me together with a woman they find the most obnoxiously extrovert machinegun mouth girl wich i can stand in the ring for 3 minutes, after that i need to throw in the towel and go lick my wounds. It would be so nice to just find someone like myself that can just enjoy the fantastic phenomenon that is silence. Only thing she and i have to do is to nod at each other and smile and just keep things simple. Every now and then we can ask how our days been and sometimes talk about interresting subject and share out ideas. I'm not fucking interested in what tv program they keep telling me about and what Britney Spears did a few days ago ...
You go to the university and there you will meet plenty. What you describe though is not a question introversion vs extroversion. That is a question of trying to hook up with someone with a shallow life perspective.
On December 22 2012 07:17 megapants wrote: thanks for the nice OP, barrin. i was going to suggest a video as soon as i started reading (susan cain's TED talk) but i saw you already had it in there. good stuff!
i'm a 20 year old male (21 in march) who has been introverted since forever! as someone once put it, i often "lie in bed and flirt with myself." at the beginning of 2012 i started a journal which i finished near the end of july (~310 pages) and am widdling through the next one. if you are reading this thread and you don't keep a journal or document your thoughts in some way, you are missing out! not only did it make my thoughts feel tangible but it is a great way to see how your thoughts grow over time. i wish now that i had kept journals when i was like 10 or something so i could read them today.
the only thing i disliked about the journal was how slow my handwriting was compared to my thoughts. if this is a hassle for you as well, you can try recording your voice or doing a video diary, or simply type it out in word or on in the blog section if you feel comfortable sharing. even though i get a little frustrated with the pacing, i find it difficult to keep track of digital stuff so i'm gonna stick to the good ol' pen and paper.
On December 22 2012 06:54 decaf wrote: Introvert(78%) iNtuitive(50%) Thinking(88%) Judging(78%) I also usually score ~140 on IQ tests, what do I win?
>inb4 everyone has an IQ of 140 >inb4 IQ doesn't mean anything >implying that makes me any less superior
the only reason anyone would say any of those things is because what you said doesn't really have any potential for discussion; calling you out on those things is the only way to extract a subject matter out of your post. sure, your stats are nice but what does that matter to me? i don't think this is a "who is the BEST/MOST introverted person here?" type of thread.
someone said a earlier that this is just a circle-jerk of people with superiority complexes and i don't think that was the point that barrin was trying to make at all. it only has to be that way if you step in and try and be better than the other people who are just trying to have a conversation.
99% of anything that's discussed on TL is a huge circlejerk. The OP is not even making a point, what do you want to discuss? The existence of something? How useless would that be? I'm just trying to fit in.
The worst thing about being introverted for me, is I have it pretty severely, with a few mental disorders as well, which ends up making it so i can't leave the house for more thana couple hours at a time without getting severely drained and sometimes taking weeks to recover.
But of course therapists just want to do exposure therapy :/ so great, fml.
hard being an introvert living in an extroverts world.
I'm sold! Now where can I find these introverts and give them a medal for being so dang introverted despite it all? We are all brave for having just shown up to the dang parade known as life.
EPT
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