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On December 22 2012 08:26 McBengt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 08:12 Crumpet wrote:On December 22 2012 08:00 McBengt wrote:On December 22 2012 03:30 cam connor wrote:
Man so many introverts have this really convoluted superiority complex
It's pretty laughable It's not a sense of superiority, it's a sense of annoyance at constantly being told, directly or surreptitiously, that wouldn't it be better if you would just go out and have fun and meet people and blah blah blah. It's being constantly nudged into believing that only by pretending to be something you're not can you be happy and successful. It's the thinly veiled arrogance and condescension of ignorant boneheads whose only measurement of social skills is how loud and verbose you can be, it grates on one's patience eventually. Yeah, get annoyed at the people who tell you that to attempt to help you improve your life. I am an introvert. I make myself socialize. It becomes a huge factor in life. It can be the difference between getting what you want out of both life and work, and getting nothing. It's not about pretending to do anything. It's about making connections to the people around you. Generalizing either side, introvert or extrovert, is not cool. The arrogance is astounding, you are either dense or wilfully obtuse. Has it ever occured to you that getting what you want out of life may not be the same for you as it is for other people? That maybe making yourself socialize, while gratifying for you, would only be an excercise in frustration and exasperation for others? That making connections holds absolutely no interest for some people who are not you? This is the very essence of pretending to be someone else. If it's not even desirable in the first place, it's not an improvement. Stop assuming that the your model of an ideal life is a one size fits all.
Has nothing to do with my model of an ideal life. It's about presenting you with the tools so that, whatever your ideal may be, you can obtain it. In on way or another, the majority of the time social skills are required to obtain at least some piece of what you want. If you want to feel attacked and persecuted, that's up to you. My point, however,remains valid.
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On December 22 2012 08:25 AUGcodon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 08:00 McBengt wrote:On December 22 2012 03:30 cam connor wrote:
Man so many introverts have this really convoluted superiority complex
It's pretty laughable It's not a sense of superiority, it's a sense of annoyance at constantly being told, directly or surreptitiously, that wouldn't it be better if you would just go out and have fun and meet people and blah blah blah. It's being constantly nudged into believing that only by pretending to be something you're not can you be happy and successful. It's the thinly veiled arrogance and condescension of ignorant boneheads whose only measurement of social skills is how loud and verbose you can be, it grates on one's patience eventually. Okay, this was what I was talking about earlier. You are talking about pretending as if something that betrays your sense of innerself. If you really think that way fine, but reality dosen't conform to your expectations. It's about understanding that interpersonal relations is a survival skill. The world does not give a fuck about how you feel if I want to be harsh about it. Learning to smile even if you feel like shit is just something you have to learn. Even if you think another person is a "vapid bonehead", you better be able to keep that thought to your head. And be able to put on a big fucking smile and shake his hand if the situation demands it.
Interacting with people in a professional capacity is vastly different, you are acting as a representative of your employer, not as yourself. Professional courtesy is a must, certainly, but it's an extremely easy skill to master. More often than not, you don't even have to smile, just be polite and accomodating. I'm perfectly capable of dealing with people I don't like when I am in a professional environment, it's a means to an end, I don't expect to enjoy it. I'm in law school atm, so I have some experience from attending trials and hearings.
This is about society pushing an idea that you can never be truly happy unless you conform to the ideal of an aggressively outgoing and tirelessly interactive person. And I resent that.
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On December 22 2012 08:32 Crumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 08:26 McBengt wrote:On December 22 2012 08:12 Crumpet wrote:On December 22 2012 08:00 McBengt wrote:On December 22 2012 03:30 cam connor wrote:
Man so many introverts have this really convoluted superiority complex
It's pretty laughable It's not a sense of superiority, it's a sense of annoyance at constantly being told, directly or surreptitiously, that wouldn't it be better if you would just go out and have fun and meet people and blah blah blah. It's being constantly nudged into believing that only by pretending to be something you're not can you be happy and successful. It's the thinly veiled arrogance and condescension of ignorant boneheads whose only measurement of social skills is how loud and verbose you can be, it grates on one's patience eventually. Yeah, get annoyed at the people who tell you that to attempt to help you improve your life. I am an introvert. I make myself socialize. It becomes a huge factor in life. It can be the difference between getting what you want out of both life and work, and getting nothing. It's not about pretending to do anything. It's about making connections to the people around you. Generalizing either side, introvert or extrovert, is not cool. The arrogance is astounding, you are either dense or wilfully obtuse. Has it ever occured to you that getting what you want out of life may not be the same for you as it is for other people? That maybe making yourself socialize, while gratifying for you, would only be an excercise in frustration and exasperation for others? That making connections holds absolutely no interest for some people who are not you? This is the very essence of pretending to be someone else. If it's not even desirable in the first place, it's not an improvement. Stop assuming that the your model of an ideal life is a one size fits all. Has nothing to do with my model of an ideal life. It's about presenting you with the tools so that, whatever your ideal may be, you can obtain it. In on way or another, the majority of the time social skills are required to obtain at least some piece of what you want. If you want to feel attacked and persecuted, that's up to you. My point, however,remains valid.
I'm glad you think your point is still valid, because I have yet to see it. How would you know what I want? How would you know what skills are required to attain it? How would you know what tools I deem useful or necessary? Again, an assumption that because you want something that hinges on specific social skills, others do too. You are mistaken.
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On December 22 2012 08:29 shinosai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 08:25 AUGcodon wrote:On December 22 2012 08:00 McBengt wrote:On December 22 2012 03:30 cam connor wrote:
Man so many introverts have this really convoluted superiority complex
It's pretty laughable It's not a sense of superiority, it's a sense of annoyance at constantly being told, directly or surreptitiously, that wouldn't it be better if you would just go out and have fun and meet people and blah blah blah. It's being constantly nudged into believing that only by pretending to be something you're not can you be happy and successful. It's the thinly veiled arrogance and condescension of ignorant boneheads whose only measurement of social skills is how loud and verbose you can be, it grates on one's patience eventually. Okay, this was what I was talking about earlier. You are talking about pretending as if something that betrays your sense of innerself. If you really think that way fine, but reality dosen't conform to your expectations. It's about understanding that interpersonal relations is a survival skill. The world does not give a fuck about how you feel if I want to be harsh about it. Learning to smile even if you feel like shit is just something you have to learn. Even if you think another person is a "vapid bonehead", you better be able to keep that thought to your head. And be able to put on a big fucking smile and shake his hand if the situation demands it. You can have interpersonal relations without pretending to be extroverted. It's really not hard. At all. In fact, everyone knows how to fake personal interactions in order to get what they want. That's what we call job interviews. We all have skills at interpersonal relations. Sometimes, we choose not to act on them. Want to know some reasons? Here's one: I've calculated that talking to you will not add anything to my life.
I guess my point was for introverted people with poor social skills. Personally, I really had to force myself to pick up interpersonal skills over time. It's not that necessarily I enjoy it, but I know I need for the direction my career is going. I just feel this is a lesson that is best learned early in life. One really important thing I picked up over time was to convince people to follow my idea by making them think it was their own idea. I feel this task is very difficult without a sense of personal bond between the two parties.
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God damn I have the worst of the possibile selections. I am an introvert but don't shut up in public, I don't really like going out and interacting with others but when I do I talk loads and make shy people nervous. I make other introverts nervous especially...making it so hard to make friends with people I actually like and respect lol.
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What you deem necessary, and what is necessary, may or may not be the same thing. I never claimed to know what you want. I'm glad you have enough confidence in yourself that you automatically know that you are right and I am wrong, when you yourself admit you are too dense to see my point. Whatever man. It seems you are not in the mood for a discussion of alternate views on life. You prefer to argue. Over the internet. Good luck with that.
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On December 22 2012 08:43 Crumpet wrote:
What you deem necessary, and what is necessary, may or may not be the same thing. I never claimed to know what you want. I'm glad you have enough confidence in yourself that you automatically know that you are right and I am wrong, when you yourself admit you are too dense to see my point. Whatever man. It seems you are not in the mood for a discussion of alternate views on life. You prefer to argue. Over the internet. Good luck with that.
Funny, as I was trying to make you grasp the idea of an alternate view of life that you seem incapable of understanding. I claimed that you were mistaken because I believe you are. I could be wrong.
How about some concrete examples then? What is your point exactly here? Define how an outgoing social skillset is needed for most things one could want in life, and why one would want them, and why they would be mandatory.
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This must be the dumbest test i've ever done. Why only yes and no answers? Much better if they had a test where you could select on a scale how accurate the statment was relating to yourself. I got INFJ, wich by the way are the rares of them all. Then i read the field of work that would suite me ... Home parent ... Librarian ... Social worker ... Not really my cup of tea. Thanks for ruining my friday!
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When people attack your preferences the only tools you need to know are "yes" and "no". The discussion point is over after this-- your stating your preference is the trump card. Augmenting the answer with external concepts ("I prefer X because Y") is suspicious and keeps the flood gates open to more attacks. There is no counter to "I prefer X". It is a pure expression of your will that can't be invalidated unless you allow it to be.
The alternative is to bend and flex, to deny your preferences to "get what you want". Thing is, "what you want" is really "what you think you want" (how do you know you want that job? you've never experienced what it's like to have it, only imagined) and as such the idea of striving for any less than utter authenticity (honest expression of preference) is insane. 'Fake it till you make it' can't guarantee you 'make it': 'it' simply does not exist in reality, only as a fabrication of the mind.
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On December 22 2012 08:50 McBengt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 08:43 Crumpet wrote:
What you deem necessary, and what is necessary, may or may not be the same thing. I never claimed to know what you want. I'm glad you have enough confidence in yourself that you automatically know that you are right and I am wrong, when you yourself admit you are too dense to see my point. Whatever man. It seems you are not in the mood for a discussion of alternate views on life. You prefer to argue. Over the internet. Good luck with that. Funny, as I was trying to make you grasp the idea of an alternate view of life that you seem incapable of understanding. I claimed that you were mistaken because I believe you are. I could be wrong. How about some concrete examples then? What is your point exactly here? Define how an outgoing social skillset is needed for most things one could want in life, and why one would want them, and why they would be mandatory.
Let's take a hypothetical example. You and another lawyer have the same capability and you are both competing. Let's take some clients from all walk of life. some rich, some poor, some honorable, some desperate, some terrible. Do you have the confidence that you can convince them that McBengt J.D really gets me. He understands my values, he knows where I am coming from, he has a cute anecdote that I genuinely laughed at. Does he really "get" me? I only met a few people that could do this sort of things. I personally think this sort of skill does not arise unless you have a strong sense of empathy. And Im not really sure how empathetic you are if you despise the common man.
I guess I only focus on the professional part of life because for the most part I agree with you on the personal life. If you really don't like interacting with some people, it's your life go for it.
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I sometimes feel like both 
Sometimes I like to be alone, reading, thinking, playing music.
Sometimes I feel like to go out and have a huge party, be social and meet lots of new people.
I feel that I like to be alone on the usual day to day, but when somethings comes up, like a birthday or new years party, I am really looking forward to seeing alot of friends and have a good time with alot of people.
I don't think I belong to camp, and maybe the split between introvert and extrovert is a bit too focused in splitting humans into categories, while we can have alot of both of the worlds.
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Keep in mind that on an internet forum like this, you can take as long as you like to type your message and include as many details as you want. Once you've fleshed it out you can still decide whether it's something worth posting. You can decide to ignore or regard other posters as you like. When posted your message gets the same status as any other message.
It's a very introvert-friendly means of communication, so I'm not suprised TL forums have a disproportionately large representation of introverts compared to the whole world, or even a "fast" board like Reddit. In the real world introverts are very much a minority, and being misunderstood and pressured to conform are real issues. Good topic.
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On December 22 2012 09:09 AUGcodon wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 08:50 McBengt wrote:On December 22 2012 08:43 Crumpet wrote:
What you deem necessary, and what is necessary, may or may not be the same thing. I never claimed to know what you want. I'm glad you have enough confidence in yourself that you automatically know that you are right and I am wrong, when you yourself admit you are too dense to see my point. Whatever man. It seems you are not in the mood for a discussion of alternate views on life. You prefer to argue. Over the internet. Good luck with that. Funny, as I was trying to make you grasp the idea of an alternate view of life that you seem incapable of understanding. I claimed that you were mistaken because I believe you are. I could be wrong. How about some concrete examples then? What is your point exactly here? Define how an outgoing social skillset is needed for most things one could want in life, and why one would want them, and why they would be mandatory. Let's take a hypothetical example. You and another lawyer have the same capability and you are both competing. Let's take some clients from all walk of life. some rich, some poor, some honorable, some desperate, some terrible. Do you have the confidence that you can convince them that McBengt J.D really gets me. He understands my values, he knows where I am coming from, he has a cute anecdote that I genuinely laughed at. Does he really "get" me? I only met a few people that could do this sort of things. I personally think this sort of skill does not arise unless you have a strong sense of empathy. And Im not really sure how empathetic you are if you despise the common man. I guess I only focus on the professional part of life because for the most part I agree with you on the personal life. If you really don't like interacting with some people, it's your life go for it.
In that case this seems like a major misunderstanding, as I stated earlier that I have no problems with professional courtesy and providing a service my employer pays me to provide. When I'm at work, I'm not me in the general sense of the word, I'm employee number X and I'm cool with that.
As for your example, sure, an attitude like that could help, but I genuinely believe that simply being professional, polite and accomodating will be enough in the vast majority of cases as long as you are reasonably competent. I don't mind if my doctor is quiet and reserved as long as he/she can help me. And I didn't say I despise common people, I said I despise stupidity and superficial interaction. I'd argue there is a clear distinction.
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Hmm, I'm not so sure about these personality tests, are they aimed at non-Neurotypicals? I'm currently undergoing diagnosis for Autism and have been warned against these kinds of test - from reading them briefly it is fairly clear what the 'correct' answers are in order for you to obtain the personality trait that supports your self image.
I find people attempting to eulogize and appropriate historical figures into their personality type deeply egotistical. I don't know why people are draw to this kind of reinforcement in this way.
If this works for you that's great of course, I'm heavily introverted in my approach to life, but I don't need a test to tell me this nor a psychological theory to enable me to cope with my personality.
Sorry, Xmas is here and I'm feeling cynical.
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It's obnoxious when you're hounded for not being social and outgoing. I'm someone who neither enjoys nor is good at social interaction. I would in some ways agree to criticism of my social skills (there's no need to constantly bring it up though), but I won't accept being vilified for my preferences. It's one of the themes of the OP that I would agree to, but I don't necessarily think there is any need at all to bring introversion into this. I simply wish that differences in individuals are respected, that people aren't constantly questioned for not adhering to some social norm. This is a message that goes beyond Introversion Awareness Day.
To be honest, as someone with real social problems, all the celebratory posts here where people proudly proclaim their newly discovered introversion are kind of offensive to me. And I think such posts are a natural consequence of the way Barrin framed his OP, it's a lot like he is proselyting about the awesomeness of the introvert label, how it can empower you etc. (you are a master strategic planner!)
Furthermore, it's also useless. To the person that pondered about whether he was a INFP or a INFJ, who cares? It's not going to change anything about you, it is not informative, it doesn't predict anything, it's not going to tell you anything about yourself that you don't already know. It's just searching for a peer-approved label.
Social problems = social problems, it's not special snowflakeness that makes you super awesome. You can work on it like anyone else or you can tell that you shouldn't be expected to have social skills because of your introverted nature.
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On December 22 2012 03:32 Barrin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 03:30 cam connor wrote:
Man so many introverts have this really convoluted superiority complex
It's pretty laughable So many extroverts just say whatever that comes to their mind without thinking. It's pretty annoying.
Hahahah that is perfect.
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First off, that is a terribly obnoxious way to format the first post. A line between each quote and famous introvert? You could at least have spoilered that stuff and made it easier to read. It's a nice post detailing a certain type of personality according to a certain person, but I feel like it is promoting the use of creating a label for oneself to better your self esteem. Nobody needs to know that they're a (insert 4 letters here) and that they have all of the traits that somebody says that personality type has and that that makes them a special snowflake. I like to keep people out of boxes and take them for what they are. I'm sure that everyone has qualities from every "personality type" and just because someone is an INTJ doesn't mean they are a "Silent leader."
I also don't get why you feel like introverts are seen as less valuable by society. Your "problem" is that being outgoing and having social successes is considered to be a good thing by society. That's not a problem at all. Why should we think that social situations are a bad thing? Nobody can help the fact that someone who is insecure with themselves might feel pressured to do what other people do. That's just something that people have to live with and get over, and I suppose that kind of person can be helped by all this introvert pride stuff in the OP. The OP is certainly useful at addressing the problem, but that problem lies within someone who is not self-assured enough to not do what extroverts want to do. Society can't help that. And you may not realize it, but some of those videos/interviews reek of condescension.
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On December 22 2012 09:31 Deleuze wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2012 03:32 Barrin wrote:On December 22 2012 03:30 cam connor wrote:
Man so many introverts have this really convoluted superiority complex
It's pretty laughable So many extroverts just say whatever that comes to their mind without thinking. It's pretty annoying. Hahahah that is perfect.
Nice one. I didn't catch it, but it pretty much summarizes the entire thread.
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Made me smile seeing so many of my introverted characteristics and tendencies put into words.
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Like many of those tests I get an ENTJ profile with a weak E (10%) (might become a weak I then I guess since some question I really hadn't a clear answer like Yes or No.
This seems to fit, being strongly on the rational/scientific side for N and T, and in the middle for E/I since I'm confortable speaking and in social interaction but I don't really seek them actively.
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EPT
