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On December 06 2012 02:24 tehemperorer wrote:
Kids, with more reason than ever, don't truly give a shit. Why should they? The impetus to succeed and any pride that is associated with success is something so rarely taught that these kids (incredibly) literally lack the power to imagine a reason for their own betterment.
Sad state of things, but that's the climate. The good news is that more and more people are becoming aware of this cycle and it theoretically can't last.
Again, this may be true in some school districts. I stress my original response to the OP. You can find a school district where the kids are motivated and where the parents we well educated and invested in their child's education.
They exist, they are competitive to get a position, and they pay better. Focus on building your resume, network, and acclamations. Set a goal of getting hired somewhere better.
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On December 06 2012 02:57 Smancer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 02:24 tehemperorer wrote:
Kids, with more reason than ever, don't truly give a shit. Why should they? The impetus to succeed and any pride that is associated with success is something so rarely taught that these kids (incredibly) literally lack the power to imagine a reason for their own betterment.
Sad state of things, but that's the climate. The good news is that more and more people are becoming aware of this cycle and it theoretically can't last. Again, this may be true in some school districts. I stress my original response to the OP. You can find a school district where the kids are motivated and where the parents we well educated and invested in their child's education. They exist, they are competitive to get a position, and they pay better. Focus on building your resume, network, and acclamations. Set a goal of getting hired somewhere better.
Yes, absolutely. I was speaking more of the district he described. But to your point, being the husband of a really good teacher, you typically have to put in a good wait to even get the chance to interview at these districts. Districts like what you describe are also uncommon, and in some cases hard to identify as such, which add to the impediment of getting hired there. Your solution is definitely valid but at the same time, is very hard to achieve.
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United States24495 Posts
On December 06 2012 01:40 Blisse wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 00:22 micronesia wrote:On December 05 2012 23:27 Kreb wrote:
A possibly interesting (and maybe philosophical) question: Is this actually something that should be fixed? If someone prefers being lazy and apathetic with the tradeoff that they, by traditional means of measuring success (car, house, family, all kind of gadgets, enough money for vacations now and then, etc), would also be "unsuccessful". Is that a bad thing? Is that something that actually needs to be fixed? What if they are perfectly happy with it? I think too much emphasis is placed on schooling, and college isn't for everyone, despite what message you hear if you are a high school student. On the other hand, I think there are a large number of adults who wish they had taken their teachers' advice when they were in high school. While I know that college isn't for everyone, it dramatically increases your chances to be successful (def: success).
This probably isn't true for every student. There are some students where college will hurt them more than help, with the current system (school system, job system, etc). This is most likely a minority, but not an insignificant group. For many people in the USA, college becomes a big financial expense which gives the student neither the skills and in many cases the degree necessary to improve their professional success.
Also, not every job is better when filled by college-educated people. This might be a good goal, but it requires a restructuring... the current system isn't sufficient.
And as children, many have not matured enough to objectively determine whether college is correct for them, and instead we're starting this age of positive reinforcement where students who can't be bothered to try hard at school as they're not interested suddenly say that post-secondary education isn't right for them, because they've heard that college isn't right for everyone. And then they continue to reaffirm this point by doing poorly and blaming the education system instead of themselves.
How did you determine this cycle you described? Is there a backing to it?
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Thanks all for your input! I just got home so let me address a few points in a single post.
On December 05 2012 23:27 Kreb wrote:
A possibly interesting (and maybe philosophical) question: Is this actually something that should be fixed? If someone prefers being lazy and apathetic with the tradeoff that they, by traditional means of measuring success (car, house, family, all kind of gadgets, enough money for vacations now and then, etc), would also be "unsuccessful". Is that a bad thing? Is that something that actually needs to be fixed? What if they are perfectly happy with it?
You make a fair point, but our current educational system can be summed up with the apt description of "No Child Left Behind." It's not fair to the students that their ability is judged a 5 part, gigantic multiple choice standardized test, but that's the way it is. The system is set for now, so we as teachers have to not leave anyone behind. I actually agree, let them fail, but it blows back on the teachers like a tornado if we do.
On December 05 2012 22:26 Pandemona wrote:
Ask yourself this one question too;
What about those students who don't want to learn Music? Don't find Music interesting? Don't care about treble clefs or how most songs have the same beat running constantly in the background or drummers using the same beat etcetc.
I for one speak from experience, in England you "have" to take music until a certain age, then you can drop it or focus fully on it. For the first 3 years of high school i did not care about music, i would much rather talk about science or math or better yet football....
To top it all of, how on earth does one suppose to find the effort to do a peice of "music" homework which they do not find interesting or see themself doing in either College or Work Life?
In my state, each student needs 2 credits (.5 per semester) of fine arts to graduate from high school. Fine arts, not music. You can choose between art, chorus, and band in my district. Of those three, chorus is logically the easiest course, unless you want to work to learn and instrument or you are artistically gifted. At .5 credits per semester, you would need 2 full years of a single class to earn your graduation requirements.
I understand that you don't find it interesting. But you could take a two years of art instead. Which interests you more? All of my classes are, to a certain extent, elective. The only students who have to take music are the elementary students. And they like it anyway. If you elect to take something then you should put in some effort, yes?
On December 05 2012 23:31 Smancer wrote:
Get your experience, and tenure, then move on to a new school. Low income, low grade schools tend to have high levels of Apathy. It makes teaching very difficult.
However not all schools are like the one you are in. There are Good schools and Bad Schools. There is not much you can do in a Bad School if administration is not there to help.
Try to beef your resume with AP training, and other educational Certificates. With such little experience those extras will really boost your chances of getting an interview in a better school district. In addition, write down what you did on all your professional development days. Add a Professional development section to your Resume and try to add accomplishments and descriptions there.
I was teaching in a school district much like the one you describe 7 or 8 years ago. The teachers who stay there are the ones who are Apathetic. The teachers that want to achieve are the ones who move on to better school systems (or in my case industry). Remember that.
Thanks, but I do realize that not all districts are like the one I'm currently at. But I did make mention that when I student taught in a district that is far, far better than the one I'm in now, I still saw the same kind of apathy from the students. I don't want to sound too defensive, but if I was the apathetic type of teacher, I probably wouldn't care how the students acted.
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On December 06 2012 01:40 Blisse wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 00:36 FromShouri wrote:On December 06 2012 00:22 micronesia wrote:On December 05 2012 23:27 Kreb wrote:
A possibly interesting (and maybe philosophical) question: Is this actually something that should be fixed? If someone prefers being lazy and apathetic with the tradeoff that they, by traditional means of measuring success (car, house, family, all kind of gadgets, enough money for vacations now and then, etc), would also be "unsuccessful". Is that a bad thing? Is that something that actually needs to be fixed? What if they are perfectly happy with it? I think too much emphasis is placed on schooling, and college isn't for everyone, despite what message you hear if you are a high school student. On the other hand, I think there are a large number of adults who wish they had taken their teachers' advice when they were in high school. This times a million, i was in sage yet had to take summer school to graduate. I was told that if we did well on the stupid fucking standardized test we'd be given high school credit. I did very well(like top 92% overall) they didnt tell us though...the credits are worthless colleges dont accept them and you cant use them to graduate with and no one told me until the last month of school. So why should i trust a system that straight up lies and decieves me so the district gets some money yet doesnt provide a real education? I went onto college and dropped out i then went to an IT trade school and got my certs for general pc repair and through that own a house and car and everything and i graduated bottom 80 in my class. High school doesnt mean anything its all about how you take control of your own life after the state mandated babysitting ends at 18 It's worth high school credit, but you have to find out whether the colleges you're applying to accept those credits. I don't get where you were deceived in this, since it clearly says, high school credit as in high school graduation credit, and not college entrance credit? I am happy to hear that you made a life for yourself even though you dropped out of college after trade school and what not, but what do you think of the effort you needed to go to college, get into a trade school, get your certification, and then going on to get a house, versus the effort you would have needed to get to the same point in life had you not screwed up and needed summer school to graduate? Anyways, your perspective argument that school doesn't provide a real education doesn't really stand since your case is that you needed summer school, and that they lied to you. In this case, if it were true and you've not warped what the instructors have said, then it is the administration of the school's fault for deceiving you, not the education system. I'm sorry if this is mean, but maybe this is why an education is important, given that you needed summer school to graduate high school, in which many people say high school education is a joke. So it appears almost you didn't meet the minimum requirements for a basic education. I don't understand where the basis of your arguments are coming from, which is probably a result of your education. It's hard to have an argument with someone with a minimal education. Their arguments aren't really...coherent, and it's hard to be objective when there's so many other flaws in the argument. :s So while you're supporting micronesia's points, your reasons for supporting them aren't the correct reasons, and based off of what you've said, you're kind of twisting your experiences to fit his words.
Yes the administration deceived me and all of the students and most certainly no, no college accepts them AND they can not be used to graduate with(IE they are entirely pointless, if you "count" them I actually have an extra credit but it literally means nothing). Perhaps it is you who has holes in their argument since you don't know what you're talking about? Schools in the US specifically don't care about actually educating kids, all they care about is the bottom line on the standardized tests. Most specifically I did meet the basics for a "normal education" but I was short 1 elective, I had to take PE to graduate, all because they told me all my high school career that those credits were accepted for a diploma and then a week before graduation they said they don't count and I either need to take summer school or come back in the fall to finish 1 elective,1 freaking elective to get my diploma.
Also no, with the amount of effort required to get where I am with college would be substantially different and harder. I had no debt after I stopped attending college and trade school cost me $300 just to take a test to show I already knew it(in other words because I had a life long hobby of fixing computers they just let me take the final exams and receive my certification). Also since I worked/interned for various tech repair agencies they felt I really didn't need to take the full course provided I passed the final. Education is a joke and just because someone does "horrible" by college and society standards in high school doesn't mean anything. High School isn't some magic ticket to a better life and neither is college. Just ask all those kids with theater and creative writing degrees.
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On December 06 2012 10:34 FromShouri wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 01:40 Blisse wrote:On December 06 2012 00:36 FromShouri wrote:On December 06 2012 00:22 micronesia wrote:On December 05 2012 23:27 Kreb wrote:
A possibly interesting (and maybe philosophical) question: Is this actually something that should be fixed? If someone prefers being lazy and apathetic with the tradeoff that they, by traditional means of measuring success (car, house, family, all kind of gadgets, enough money for vacations now and then, etc), would also be "unsuccessful". Is that a bad thing? Is that something that actually needs to be fixed? What if they are perfectly happy with it? I think too much emphasis is placed on schooling, and college isn't for everyone, despite what message you hear if you are a high school student. On the other hand, I think there are a large number of adults who wish they had taken their teachers' advice when they were in high school. This times a million, i was in sage yet had to take summer school to graduate. I was told that if we did well on the stupid fucking standardized test we'd be given high school credit. I did very well(like top 92% overall) they didnt tell us though...the credits are worthless colleges dont accept them and you cant use them to graduate with and no one told me until the last month of school. So why should i trust a system that straight up lies and decieves me so the district gets some money yet doesnt provide a real education? I went onto college and dropped out i then went to an IT trade school and got my certs for general pc repair and through that own a house and car and everything and i graduated bottom 80 in my class. High school doesnt mean anything its all about how you take control of your own life after the state mandated babysitting ends at 18 It's worth high school credit, but you have to find out whether the colleges you're applying to accept those credits. I don't get where you were deceived in this, since it clearly says, high school credit as in high school graduation credit, and not college entrance credit? I am happy to hear that you made a life for yourself even though you dropped out of college after trade school and what not, but what do you think of the effort you needed to go to college, get into a trade school, get your certification, and then going on to get a house, versus the effort you would have needed to get to the same point in life had you not screwed up and needed summer school to graduate? Anyways, your perspective argument that school doesn't provide a real education doesn't really stand since your case is that you needed summer school, and that they lied to you. In this case, if it were true and you've not warped what the instructors have said, then it is the administration of the school's fault for deceiving you, not the education system. I'm sorry if this is mean, but maybe this is why an education is important, given that you needed summer school to graduate high school, in which many people say high school education is a joke. So it appears almost you didn't meet the minimum requirements for a basic education. I don't understand where the basis of your arguments are coming from, which is probably a result of your education. It's hard to have an argument with someone with a minimal education. Their arguments aren't really...coherent, and it's hard to be objective when there's so many other flaws in the argument. :s So while you're supporting micronesia's points, your reasons for supporting them aren't the correct reasons, and based off of what you've said, you're kind of twisting your experiences to fit his words. Yes the administration deceived me and all of the students and most certainly no, no college accepts them AND they can not be used to graduate with(IE they are entirely pointless, if you "count" them I actually have an extra credit but it literally means nothing). Perhaps it is you who has holes in their argument since you don't know what you're talking about? Schools in the US specifically don't care about actually educating kids, all they care about is the bottom line on the standardized tests. Most specifically I did meet the basics for a "normal education" but I was short 1 elective, I had to take PE to graduate, all because they told me all my high school career that those credits were accepted for a diploma and then a week before graduation they said they don't count and I either need to take summer school or come back in the fall to finish 1 elective,1 freaking elective to get my diploma. Also no, with the amount of effort required to get where I am with college would be substantially different and harder. I had no debt after I stopped attending college and trade school cost me $300 just to take a test to show I already knew it(in other words because I had a life long hobby of fixing computers they just let me take the final exams and receive my certification). Also since I worked/interned for various tech repair agencies they felt I really didn't need to take the full course provided I passed the final. Education is a joke and just because someone does "horrible" by college and society standards in high school doesn't mean anything. High School isn't some magic ticket to a better life and neither is college. Just ask all those kids with theater and creative writing degrees.
Your last few lines are entirely true. BUT, to get any kind of a job you almost always need a high school diploma or GED. High school isn't a magic ticket, it's what is expected nowadays. Plus there are very few "upper tier" jobs that are accessible to those with just a high school diploma. Almost all jobs require some sort of higher education, whether it be a bachelor's degree, or an associate's degree. There are fewer and fewer jobs where you can start as an apprentice (without higher education) and work your way up.
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On December 06 2012 10:34 FromShouri wrote:
Yes the administration deceived me and all of the students and most certainly no, no college accepts them AND they can not be used to graduate with(IE they are entirely pointless, if you "count" them I actually have an extra credit but it literally means nothing). Perhaps it is you who has holes in their argument since you don't know what you're talking about? Schools in the US specifically don't care about actually educating kids, all they care about is the bottom line on the standardized tests. Most specifically I did meet the basics for a "normal education" but I was short 1 elective, I had to take PE to graduate, all because they told me all my high school career that those credits were accepted for a diploma and then a week before graduation they said they don't count and I either need to take summer school or come back in the fall to finish 1 elective,1 freaking elective to get my diploma.
Also no, with the amount of effort required to get where I am with college would be substantially different and harder. I had no debt after I stopped attending college and trade school cost me $300 just to take a test to show I already knew it(in other words because I had a life long hobby of fixing computers they just let me take the final exams and receive my certification). Also since I worked/interned for various tech repair agencies they felt I really didn't need to take the full course provided I passed the final. Education is a joke and just because someone does "horrible" by college and society standards in high school doesn't mean anything. High School isn't some magic ticket to a better life and neither is college. Just ask all those kids with theater and creative writing degrees.
Sorry if I offended you because I thought you failed a credit and needed summer school to get that credit back, when instead you were forced out of that credit and had to make it up in summer school.
Your problem here is not a matter of education. None of your argument confirms that education has anything to do with what you experienced. It was your administration that failed, not the education system. Your administration tried to screw you over. There's no argument about whether you received proper education or not, because it's not relevant in this context.
You can have an opinion about the education system being a joke, but you cannot use your experiences to validate this opinion because your experiences are not a reflection of the entire education system; it was the failure of one administrative body to properly qualify its students, as per its responsibilities.
Education is a joke if you view it as a joke and take shitty courses like theatre and creative writing degrees when you've never had the passion nor the care to pursue a life in this direction. And now that the market is oversaturated with all these "English" degrees, people who do have the passion in these fields can't get the jobs they want.
The people who do take these degrees took them for the sole purpose of getting a degree. This is not the fault of the education system, but of society's twisted perception that you need a degree to succeed. This forces kids that should never had tried for a degree, and instead just go out and get trade school diplomas or whatever, to instead spend 4 years in a program they don't care in, and pursue a career they don't care about, and oversaturate the market with all these qualified kids with no ambition in the market they're in, because they chose it out of duty, not of passion. This is the oversaturation students are experiencing in school. Not exactly a failure of the educational system, but it doesn't help.
High school and college is definitely not a ticket to a better life. But the reality in today's market is that upon finishing high school and college or university, your chances of leading a better life is several times better than the kid who dropped out in Grade 10 because he couldn't take it. Dropping out for the reason that you can't take the studying is a serious reflection on a person's inability to overcome obstacles, a huge indication of whether you have the ability to be successful or not.
I'm glad that you made up for your shitty administration and their failure to present to you the correct choices you need to get into post-secondary school, but you cannot use that as an argument as to why the education system is broken.
As a sidenote, I really enjoy teachers who really enjoy teaching. I think a lot of teachers are like that. Most people irregardless of their intelligence really like to inspire something, teach something, change someone's perception of something.
It doesn't really matter to me how well they teach, but how well they can convey the beauty of what they're teaching. I can always go back on my notes to clarify something, but it matters more to me that the teacher inspires me to actually enjoy and think about the material (even though I can do that on my own as well). Maybe I'm different in this regard.
Kids will talk about it too. If a teacher is particularly eccentric because he's passionate, students will notice and will talk about it. And getting people to talk about how passionate he seems, even if they don't really understand all of the material, helps in the long run for them to understand why what they're learning was cool. It's like that thing where a lot of people when they're older wished they'd paid more attention in school because they finally realized that the things they were learning were actually really cool and important. If you can convey this sense while they're learning, then your job is basically done.
You probably won't be able to change the entire school, but you can definitely influence at least some kids. My high school was really, really shit. In my opinion, many great teachers who really enjoyed teaching, but nothing could be done for all the students. One of the teachers was so good that he made the entire class take history the next year. I'm talking about a bunch of delinquents in the class too. So it's definitely possible if you approach learning with the right attitude. I'm not super sure about music, but I wish you all the best. We need more people like you who care about the students.
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Its incredible how parents dont give a sh1t about their childrens. I saw it when i was at h-school, Parents ar tierd of going to work, they think that just because children have home, food, videogames(So they dont try to talk to the daddy or mommy when they ar watching TV, GOD FORBIDDEN) they ar doing a great job as a parent, No, you ar not you lazy mothafacker. (It happened to me, YO MOM AND DADDY SUP DOODS)
I dont have a KID, im a 21 years guy, that is unemployed at moment and trying to get at a public university after leaving payed internship and computer science course at a Private University. I clearly dont know how to raise a kid, and i dont really know how to live my life the way i want it to be, but im aways trying to improve, right? That's what you need to do with your kids, You need to set the example, YES A FREAKING EXAMPLE!! I know if you ar a parent, you ar tierd of work, bills ar hell, things can be sh1tty at moment economy, life, and bla bla bla all sux. But you need to get all-together, and help your son.
Kids ar lazy, they ll waste all they time at games and internet, and if no1 cares about then, they wont do homework, why the hell they would? its not fun!! And they ll see that they ar probally doing the minimun to get pass, and that's ok for then. (Hey me from 10 years ago ...)
Here in brazil, 90% of the teachers of public schools dont give a sh1t, they ar underpayed, they work a lot (im speaking about number of hours, not quality.), really far from they homes, And they ar, what you childrens ll become, they probally get out of public school, without any real education, they did not study enough, so they werent able to get into a nice university or a nice course, so they take again, the easy-way though. They become a teacher, they know it ll be stressful, but its better then MCDonalds, they dont really care, they ar there to make a livin, they dont care if your children ll learn something or not, because at the end, That's what they have done all theyr life, getting by, one day at the time.
Teachers salary is something like 1200R$ to 2000R$ (500 to 1000 USD). That's Average Salary of brazil today. In 10, maybe 20 years, you ll be able to get a House, and maybe a car.
You know the only way to fail at public education system at brazil? Dont go there, that's the ONLY WAY TO FAIL, Even if you dont know sh1t, they ll pass you, because teacher and school staff, get bonus for grades, so dont worry, they ll inflate the fack out of your grades.
I dont know how is the best education system, hell, im still trying to get my life on track, but what can i say is that: If you ar a teacher, i know some days ll be HELL, but try to make your classes fun, try to really care about teaching and the way your's students learn.
Almost all my life, i have been a sh1t student, and sth1t person overall. But i can say, kids ar not lazy, if you make it more then " You need to study or you wont be anything when you grown up", they ll for sure, at leat try, TRY, because what i saw when i was at high-school, they were not trying, they just did not give a fack.
Ps: OFC, there's good teachers, And i met 1 or 2 on the way, and those teacher, ll be the ones that make's the real diference at your life.
PS2: Doenst matter if you ar a teacher or a parent, or both, just do your part, one thing I have learn, is that you cant control things, you can try to make better, but you cant control, make your part, the best you can, and then, go from there.
Sorry for my english.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51435 Posts
On December 05 2012 22:26 Pandemona wrote:
Ask yourself this one question too;
What about those students who don't want to learn Music? Don't find Music interesting? Don't care about treble clefs or how most songs have the same beat running constantly in the background or drummers using the same beat etcetc.
I for one speak from experience, in England you "have" to take music until a certain age, then you can drop it or focus fully on it. For the first 3 years of high school i did not care about music, i would much rather talk about science or math or better yet football....
To top it all of, how on earth does one suppose to find the effort to do a peice of "music" homework which they do not find interesting or see themself doing in either College or Work Life?
MaximusT United States. December 06 2012 12:09. Posts 118
In my state, each student needs 2 credits (.5 per semester) of fine arts to graduate from high school. Fine arts, not music. You can choose between art, chorus, and band in my district. Of those three, chorus is logically the easiest course, unless you want to work to learn and instrument or you are artistically gifted. At .5 credits per semester, you would need 2 full years of a single class to earn your graduation requirements.
I understand that you don't find it interesting. But you could take a two years of art instead. Which interests you more? All of my classes are, to a certain extent, elective. The only students who have to take music are the elementary students. And they like it anyway. If you elect to take something then you should put in some effort, yes?
Yeah totally understand if they have chosen the subject. I thought we were discussing elementary level which im pretty sure it is made "compulsry" (you have to understand then UK education system is way fucking different xD)
But i agree, if people choose to do music they should put effort in, there is no reason why you should choose something to say "meh" to it, makes no sense.
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On December 06 2012 07:37 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 01:40 Blisse wrote:
While I know that college isn't for everyone, it dramatically increases your chances to be successful (def: success). This probably isn't true for every student. There are some students where college will hurt them more than help, with the current system (school system, job system, etc). This is most likely a minority, but not an insignificant group. For many people in the USA, college becomes a big financial expense which gives the student neither the skills and in many cases the degree necessary to improve their professional success. Also, not every job is better when filled by college-educated people. This might be a good goal, but it requires a restructuring... the current system isn't sufficient.
I forgot about the financial expenses of American universities, but it's hard to consider telling someone not to attend how important getting a secondary degree is nowadays, even though people seem to agree just having a graduate's degree isn't enough.
I still consider the cases where individuals who head into post-secondary programs for the sake of getting a degree irrelevant. Many times, the program doesn't give the student the correct skills because the student never truly had the drive to compete in the program; they entered the program for the sole purpose of getting a degree and a job, not because they wanted to be in the program. This is probably a fault of society for forcing people to choose careers before they're ready, but I don't believe there are people who are passionate about their program that aren't positively benefited from pursuing a degree because they always manage to supplement it with something extra (now is the degree even necessary in this case?).
Show nested quote +And as children, many have not matured enough to objectively determine whether college is correct for them, and instead we're starting this age of positive reinforcement where students who can't be bothered to try hard at school as they're not interested suddenly say that post-secondary education isn't right for them, because they've heard that college isn't right for everyone. And then they continue to reaffirm this point by doing poorly and blaming the education system instead of themselves. How did you determine this cycle you described? Is there a backing to it?
I know this is a weak argument, but Facebook for the last 4 years, haha. Not a majority, but a vocal minority who uses the education system as a crutch.
I don't argue against there being a problem, but I argue against people who haven't put in the right effort using their experiences with it as an excuse. Now I have to define the right effort, so that itself might be the problem, that people can't find the motivation to work in school. ack, my head is hurting from the circularness of this discussion, :/ Everything influences everything else. It's hard to pinpoint exactly what. There's definitely a problem going on though.
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On December 06 2012 12:44 Blisse wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 10:34 FromShouri wrote:
Yes the administration deceived me and all of the students and most certainly no, no college accepts them AND they can not be used to graduate with(IE they are entirely pointless, if you "count" them I actually have an extra credit but it literally means nothing). Perhaps it is you who has holes in their argument since you don't know what you're talking about? Schools in the US specifically don't care about actually educating kids, all they care about is the bottom line on the standardized tests. Most specifically I did meet the basics for a "normal education" but I was short 1 elective, I had to take PE to graduate, all because they told me all my high school career that those credits were accepted for a diploma and then a week before graduation they said they don't count and I either need to take summer school or come back in the fall to finish 1 elective,1 freaking elective to get my diploma.
Also no, with the amount of effort required to get where I am with college would be substantially different and harder. I had no debt after I stopped attending college and trade school cost me $300 just to take a test to show I already knew it(in other words because I had a life long hobby of fixing computers they just let me take the final exams and receive my certification). Also since I worked/interned for various tech repair agencies they felt I really didn't need to take the full course provided I passed the final. Education is a joke and just because someone does "horrible" by college and society standards in high school doesn't mean anything. High School isn't some magic ticket to a better life and neither is college. Just ask all those kids with theater and creative writing degrees.
I'm glad that you made up for your shitty administration and their failure to present to you the correct choices you need to get into post-secondary school, but you cannot use that as an argument as to why the education system is broken.
This is the point I want to touch on the most, some of what you say is true, 1 objective opinion doesn't prove education is in the shitter. However, my school administration isn't a minority, look at Chicago, look at any major cities school system in the US and you will find the same principles. Teach the test, don't teach an education. I did enjoy learning in some classes and some of the classes I hated at first because the teacher and me butted heads quite often turned into some of my most cherished school moments. However what I say isn't an objective opinion, the entire point of the US education system right now is to teach to the standardized test so the district can get "more funding".
That is all I ever heard from the administration was "you can help us get more funding!" and what do they do with the funding? Possibly replace their 10 year old windows 98 machines that are running xp or possibly hire more teachers or something that had a positive effect? No my district spent it on uniforms for sports. You'll find it is the same story in districts across the United States.
The other line we were fed was that we won't have a good life with out college and we have to prepare, prepare, prepare! It is true that you should finish high school or even at the very least get a GED, however as you've pointed out, just going through college to get a degree can end up hurting you more then helping you. I knew a co worker of mine who racked up about 50,000 in college debt to get a job that pays 9 bucks an hour doing IT work, that wasn't even in his degrees field and he choose a half way logical degree in my opinion(business and risk analysis). Just because it increases your chance doesn't mean much when it is still a gamble without the utmost in demand degree(which changes daily, weekly, monthly).
Onto the other point is that it says you're from Canada and I am from US, we are trying to argue a problem in a way that is completely separate because of the different ways the system itself works. There is absolutely no reason to not go to college in Canada from what i read because most of it is paid for by taxes. In the US you have to finance and gain scholarships(which may not even pay for everything). We've all heard the story of the genius kid who even with all the scholarships they qualify for, still can't afford the Harvard, Stanford, and other high end college's tuition, room, and book fees.
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The problem I have with the argument about the economic disparity being this indicator for success is again that students are pressuring themselves (due to society or whatever) to attend the top universities when they could easily get their experience and diploma at a college for significantly cheaper.
So it's rather more an argument against whether it's the education system's fault for being unable to change society's views that the only way you can have a successful life is to attend a top university, because the overwhelming pressure to get a degree appears to be the root of this all, or is that part of the education system?
And similarly, is it the education system's fault that the administrators and faculty suck, and/or get funded by their percentage pass rate instead of their teaching ability, because there's no way for government officials to research every school in the country every year to determine who should get more or less funding. Now it's an interwoven mess between the government, society, and administrators, so how can you denounce the education system other than saying it hasn't adapted to this changing view, even though we've known this problem has existed for a while now and we don't really have any solutions to it.
I get that my perceptions have been warped from being from Canada and trying to speak for American schools is not the same as experiencing it firsthand, but everything I've said is from what I've gathered of the American education system. I was never speaking about the Canadian education system, because I'm aware that there are differences. While you're saying that entire districts do this, again, there's always the tie in that your education system is pointing downwards because of a lack of good faculty rather than a failure of the education system. When you have people like MaximusT who is actively trying to better his students versus the administrators you've described who just pass students to maintain funding, can you see why it's difficult to simply say the education system is broken when the teachers are just shit in those regions? Is it the education system that's broken if you suddenly had great teachers?
If this makes it simpler, we have:
- society's expectations
- shitty faculty and administrators
- poor student self-motivation and focus
- economic disparities
to battle through before we can speak directly about the education system being a failure, because they're all so heavily interwoven. Is it the education system that needs to catch up, or is it people need to realize many degrees are unnecessary? Or a huge compromise between them all?
My high school is a sports focused high school whose average grades lie about the bottom 10% of the district, and my family lives on minimum wage, but the difference is that most of the administration actually cared about its students (at least that's the impression I got), so is the education system broken when it is the administration that sucks, or when it is the student that doesn't have the foresight to get a job so they could attend the best university that they could afford, or some other reason? It's hard to say.
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EPT
