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Please read. I welcome all comments, both positive and negative, but please refrain from trolling for sake of trolling 
Please, do not confuse this with a Knowhow type of post. I am just one man, voicing my opinions. Which is what this entire blog is; an opinion. Of course this doesn't apply to every single person out there, so please don't think I mean it as such. Once more for the record, this post states my current views.
Last spring I wrote a blog about my views on teaching and education in general. Where the system is heading and what I really think about it. If you so wish, the link to the other blog is here.
Ah, how the time flies. It seems like just yesterday I was walking the hallways of my university, excitingly discussing the prospect of student teaching and what we thought it was going to be about. After a month of actual class time, I wrote the above blog.
Now, nearly ten months later, I am wrapping up my first semester as a public school educator. I was lucky to get a job! For clarification, I am now a K-12 music instructor with all duties music assigned to me. Band, chorus, elementary general, lessons...the works. Not my ideal job, but a great experience. The school I'm working in couldn't be any more different than the school I did my student teaching in. Low income levels, poor grades, low enrollment, bad sports teams, not very good music program: again, the works.
However, as different as the school districts are, I find myself thinking many of same things that I was thinking as a student teacher in an affluent, high enrollment, academically and athletically superb district. The best staff the district can afford. The most resources available to the students in our area of the state. And yet students still fail or barely scrape by? How? The simple version is this:
Kids genuinely don't give a shit. They expect to be given what they want, when they want it.
A blunt statement, to be sure. Possibly a little exaggerated. They seem to give just enough shits to stay out of serious trouble. Like not graduating or having to retake courses. Or, God forbid, they can't play sports. Then you'll get see some work get done.
In my previous post, I mentioned the "BS" that teachers have to deal with that distracts them from their job. Well here are the two biggies.
1. The Students
Ah, the evil students. Arch-nemesis of the teacher for hundreds of years. The eternal battle roars on in classrooms all over the globe.
Just kidding. Students are the reason we teach. I love seeing my students, teaching them, getting to know them, seeing them fight their fights, and rejoicing with them when they are victorious, and helping them pick up the pieces when in defeat. Sometimes, it really is as dramatic as that.
But the apathy of students is astounding. Telling a student that they are hovering on the brink of pass/fail, and seeing them shrug is mind-boggling. I really can't understand how they are so lackadaisical about grades, when grades (as much as I dislike it) will impact their future greatly. The disconnect that students suffer from, when regarding the real world, is saddening and infuriating at the same time. Hearing a student with sub-2.0 GPA talk about college is really quite sad. You know in your heart that there is no way that a university will accept them, and that the time has come and gone when they can drastically improve their GPA.
Apathy and laziness are the two factors that I believe are ruining the futures of so many young Americans. (I say Americans, because that's where I live). "You are failing, you NEED to turn these assignments in!!!!" "Sure." This is an actual conversation with a student at the end of last week. Did I get any work handed in? Nope. "Why? What did you do all weekend?" " Played Xbox and stuff. Went to the mall with friends and stuff."
The question of "Why did you go to the mall instead of doing your homework?" is answered with apathy and laziness. Why do something you don't want to, when you can do something you do want to do? Which brings us to our next point.
2. The Parents
I'm not a parent. I have no children. I don't know how to raise a kid. And I especially don't know how to raise your kid. But you've got to change something, for the sake of your children.
The scenario above can be easily remedied with one thing. Enter the parent. Parent takes away Xbox and car keys for entire weekend. Parent makes student get his bag, pull out homework, and work on it.
Where I teach, not every family is a happy and whole family. Many of the kids have single parents, or are being raised by Grandma and Grandpa instead of Mom, Dad, or both. I understand the additional strain that this puts on the student. I see it all the time. Kids not knowing where they're staying this weekend, where a parent is, or in the worst cases, if they'll be safe and fed. When faced with the more necessary aspects of Maslow's hierarchy, Physiological and Safety, homework gets put aside. I understand that completely. I'm not really talking about those students. I will say this, the school districts and the state spend lots of money trying to help those students meet those needs. The Backpack Program and simple things like bus routes all help to alleviate financial burdens. We're not talking about them.
I'm talking about the kid with the loving parents, who always has a good meal, and always has the nicest things because Daddy has that important job at the power plant and Mommy is a Physician's Assistant. His parents are smart, and he is too, by the looks of his test scores. Yet he is a C student, borderline passing in a couple of classes. Why? Apathy and Laziness. Who lets him be lazy? The parents.
Someone has to step up at home and tell the kid to get off the computer and start doing his math. Teachers do it every minute of everyday at school, but when it comes to homework, if the student is not self-motivated, he/she needs some external motivation. Sometimes the kids just needs a metaphorical slap back to reality.
You're a smart kid, but you have shitty grades. Time to get your act together.
It would be dishonest to lead you to believe I was the best student ever. Not so. I heard the last statement far more times than I care to admit. In high school and college. It took me 4 years of high school, and 3 full years of college to wake up to what my parents were saying. Is this whole blog hypocritical then? Nope, and here's why. Because I got my act together. Hypocrite, or someone who's been down that road and can steer you away from it?
If a kid is doing poorly, they need someone other than their teachers to say this. They need someone fresh, someone new. Not the same person that's been harping on them all day every day.
3. Teachers Themselves (The Harpies)
Yes, I blame the teachers to a certain extent. I have heard horror stories about past teachers in my district, and some not-so-complimentary-things about current teachers. No student is ballsy enough to come up to me directly and tell me I do things poorly, but sometimes I wish they would. Obviously, not in an offensive manner, but say something like, "Hey I don't understand what you were saying yesterday, could you go over that again with the class?" I read micronesia's Knowhow on teaching, and it was very well written. He states, correctly I might add, that teachers should ask questions of the students. Review questions, or have students explain it back to you, or whatever. The list goes on and on. You can see his full post here. Yet things still get missed, things fall through the cracks. Many students aren't brave enough to ask you to repeat something.
What can we do to help our students more? Explain things fuller, more detailed. Yet we would be sacrificing other content to more fully understand the current subject. Some things aren't as important as others. Notes and rhythms are far more important than the meaning of allargando. Shortened version of allargando, Watch the Conductor.
Make content more lively. Relate it more to the students. Some content is boring as hell and will never actually be used by the students, yet the state standards say it must be taught. That's really a discussion for a teacher who teaches a boring subject (science, history, math, and English teachers, I'm talking to you!). I kid, but really I don't have the answer to that.
I will say this, the Ben Stein in Ferris Bueller's Day Off type of teacher is going away fast. Through retirement, cuts, and straight up firings. Teachers are expected to be on the top of their game everyday, and there will be hell to pay if you're not. Administrators, parents, and community members will be on you like me on a cupcake if you fall below expectations. We're expected to do our jobs, now we expect YOU (students, parents, administrators, community members) to do yours. It really does take a village to raise a child.
So what is your kid's teacher really thinking? He's thinking that if something doesn't change, we're headed down a dark road. He's thinking that students and parents need to step up, take charge, and be responsible, damnit. If you are an adult, or nearing adulthood, it's really time to start acting like one.
To all you current students I leave you with fear. The world needs ditch diggers too. If you want to dig ditches, here's your shovel. If not, here's your textbook and assignment, get it done.
  
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I skimmed.
Why do something you don't want to, when you can do something you do want to do?
Well for starters you it's much easier to do something you want to do. People won't do what they know to be logical. If a student were asked if they thought knowledge led to a better life most students would agree.
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Why are minors subject to apathy ?
Why are the parents poorly involved in their kids' future ?
I have no definitive answer to propose but in my opinion, there is little for kids to look for in the future. To paraphrase a well-known motto : War is coming and it will be a generational one.
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I'm not sure if this applies but sometimes kids don't do homework because an 89% is the same as an 80% in terms of college admissions. Why work when you get the same grade and have more fun? I personally get all my homework done but I do prioritize the homework in classes that I have solid grades in last in case something really important comes up last minute.
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Honestly, I know most of my friends didn't do homework because they understood everything taught already, and knew the teacher was just assigning the work to buffer grades or identify struggling students. If the homework didn't look like it'd help them actually learn, they skipped it. I kept up with them through our associates degrees, when they got into college they did a billion times better than in high school or jr. high. Suddenly the work actually mattered, the grades were mostly based on evaluations, and what you were learning was finally relevant to someone besides the government.
I personally blame the system, responsible kids shouldn't be held down by the standards of your average apethetic druggy. A more college-esque education in high school, or maybe even jr high, for kids with high grades and scores would be hugely successful, most anyone with realized potential would get their scores up to have less homework, more flexible schedules, and more intelligent subject matter.
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On December 05 2012 15:33 Artisian wrote:
Honestly, I know most of my friends didn't do homework because they understood everything taught already, and knew the teacher was just assigning the work to buffer grades or identify struggling students. If the homework didn't look like it'd help them actually learn, they skipped it. I kept up with them through our associates degrees, when they got into college they did a billion times better than in high school or jr. high. Suddenly the work actually mattered, the grades were mostly based on evaluations, and what you were learning was finally relevant to someone besides the government.
I personally blame the system, responsible kids shouldn't be held down by the standards of your average apethetic druggy. A more college-esque education in high school, or maybe even jr high, for kids with high grades and scores would be hugely successful, most anyone with realized potential would get their scores up to have less homework, more flexible schedules, and more intelligent subject matter.
In finland people apply to a high school of their choice based on their GPA they received from Jr. high.
There are good teachers and good students in every school, but there are schools with insanely high GPA's required to get in, which means the work they do will be more challenging as well. (and the teachers will not drag on). However, it should be noted that there are students who don't care even in this case.
Also, I liked the blog. It's something, regardless of having a better system, everyone around the globe has to struggle with. It brought ideas and questions that I need to think about.
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On December 05 2012 15:33 Artisian wrote:
Honestly, I know most of my friends didn't do homework because they understood everything taught already, and knew the teacher was just assigning the work to buffer grades or identify struggling students. If the homework didn't look like it'd help them actually learn, they skipped it. I kept up with them through our associates degrees, when they got into college they did a billion times better than in high school or jr. high. Suddenly the work actually mattered, the grades were mostly based on evaluations, and what you were learning was finally relevant to someone besides the government.
I personally blame the system, responsible kids shouldn't be held down by the standards of your average apethetic druggy. A more college-esque education in high school, or maybe even jr high, for kids with high grades and scores would be hugely successful, most anyone with realized potential would get their scores up to have less homework, more flexible schedules, and more intelligent subject matter.
The schooling system is wayyy too slow with it's content.
There were days in my high school where I'd go over the content in a day or two, but the teacher would spend a week or two teaching us.
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You say fun stuff about teaching. I went to high school in the U.S. and graduated there. My grades generally sucked. I was great with math, obviously finishing ex-soviet middle school. In physics I excelled at some applied project that I was told only one guy in the past 20 years succeeded. I couldn't pass American history to save my life, I failed a couple of classes that I found absolutely uninteresting. So at the end there I was, a science genius with 2.something GPA flipping burgers. So much for the Human Development Index of the U.S. But that is not the truth as I found out later on in my life. The truth is that with the exception of South Korea, Japan and Scandinavians, education system of every country is a bloody disaster. It is failing to catch up with the pace of technological progress of the past several decades and is incredibly inefficient. That goes for higher education as well. The truth is, as I came to realized, that in the modern world you need perseverance of the Nietzsche's superhuman, the will to power, greed, ambition, and all the wicked motivations you can find within you to overcome all the obstacles and succeed. 60% youth unemployment in Southern Europe, 50% unemployment among high school graduates without college degree in the U.S. Statistics tell us that most do not succeed nowadays. Anyway, I'm on the way of earning a PhD in economics in the next year or two and will probably start teaching college students right after here in Ukraine, 70% of whom will be unemployed or underemployed after graduation. Fun times, as always.
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When I was in senior year high school, we had no mandatory homework for the more difficult classes, only tests and exams, very similar to university.
It was designed for those who were more motivated I guess. Worked out great.
Homework never bothered me, I finished most of them in class....
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51452 Posts
Ask yourself this one question too;
What about those students who don't want to learn Music? Don't find Music interesting? Don't care about treble clefs or how most songs have the same beat running constantly in the background or drummers using the same beat etcetc.
I for one speak from experience, in England you "have" to take music until a certain age, then you can drop it or focus fully on it. For the first 3 years of high school i did not care about music, i would much rather talk about science or math or better yet football....
To top it all of, how on earth does one suppose to find the effort to do a peice of "music" homework which they do not find interesting or see themself doing in either College or Work Life?
However if you are generally speaking about the whole teaching world and not just your Music lessons/classes, then that is a bit different and it might be a problem that needs fixing it kids aren't doing their math homework because they can't find time to do so.
I coasted by in my school life, excelled in subjects i liked, and cruised by in others i "needed" (i was bright enough to know i needed to pass English so i made sure i did) and thats how i got into college. Kids need to be taught in ways they know will reflect them.
(please dont take this as advice or how to teach, this is more a personally thing for me, i'd value your input on it)
Your a gamer as your on TL (or atleast a fan of gaming) why can't you add in say a lesson on music in games, or teach about rhythms from CoD (for example) and get your kids entertained and engrossed that way? You said so yourself that some kis my night find larning about "x" interesting, but if you through in stuff to get their attention does that not incite them into concentrating?
I know in my later school days in England, they started introducing the "virtual whiteboard" into learning and to be honest it made learning alot more entertaining and "fun". You get more intrigued when your learning via images and sounds and more physical ways (actually pushing buttons on a "game") it made learning German more fun and easier to remember.
Just my 2cents :D not judging just an opinion of mine
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People (kids) are stupid. It's sad, but true.
Kids don't realize how big of an impact doing well in school has on success. Not that either are correlated, but doing poorly in school immediately puts your further behind than people who do well.
Kids don't realize how lucky they have it. Why do I think a lot of immigrated families have it right (like Asians), when they push their kids so far into the point of breaking? Because kids are too dumb to realize that their education, their childhood is a huge part of whether or not you will be successful. Again, it's not correlation, but having a focused upbringing will do wonders for your ability to do hard work. Because that's mostly what success entails; hard work.
Of course, force is the wrong way to do it. You should be aiming to inspire the child with the beauty of math/science/whatever. But understand, it's a child. For most of them, their view of the world is so narrow that telling them this thing is really important will just fly over their head. That's why force is necessary for a lot.
Maybe you're masterful at inspiring children. What about the others that aren't? Are they just going to try and fail again and again, and now because they've failed to inspire their kid, it's too late to bring up his GPA to get into a nice school and up his probability of being successful?
Kids don't love learning. Shit like this video is pathetic. The education system is broken, yes. But doing poorly on school is a reflection of a serious lack in mental power (regardless of the cause), not the broken education system. Everyone loves learning. But it shouldn't matter what medium that learning is achieved through. I hate the "doer, thinker, feeler" crap because it tries to categorize your complex brain. But it also gives people the argument, "oh, I did poorly because the teacher didn't appeal to my inner feeler."
If you love learning, you will learn despite the means of which the knowledge is presented. And if you truly love learning, you will continue to seek out other avenues in which to expand your knowledge and understanding. And if you've actually learned something, you will understand it, and be able to demonstrate this knowledge.
How often is it that you see those success story kids, such as 95% average athlete, musician, part-time worker, ever not be focused 100% on the task? How often do you ring them up and they go, "oh, I'm reading Reddit. Not doing my homework." And when you ask them about how they can manage so many things, and why doesn't that teacher faze them, do they ever honestly reply, "Oh yeah, that teacher is a bitch?" Never. Because the real smart kids, not those flukes who learned the material previously, are able to elevate their thinking beyond just the teacher.
Students fail because they haven't the mental capacity to push themselves to do something they don't like. Because they haven't matured to a point where they are able to derive pleasure from the immaterial, like the learning process, rather than the material, like the subject matter. (Okay, enforced classical music courses seems a bit strange, but that's a broken education system and I won't go into that discussion so much)
What are the safeguards in place to try and curb the average? To make it so that a large average of these students actually pass? You let them take their own courses and choose their future. Like arts instead of science? Take 1 art and 1 science instead. This doesn't do anything. This reaffirms their belief that they should be categorized into art student versus science student, instead of learning to love, and subsequently do well in the thing they love, both fields.
You have teachers with a soul, who really really really don't want to fail kids because they couldn't be assed to do hand in assignments, so they give a borderline mark instead of fail and say, "begone with it." Lots of other checks in place too.
How to fix this? The kid needs to be inspired. He or she needs to understand what everything - education, learning, success - means to him or her. Only then can he or she properly decide on what kind of future he or she wants to move towards.
But most kids haven't matured to a point where they are able to understand and process these ideas, so it's up to everyone else to push them down that path.
Sorry for hijacking the thread with my rant. I have a lot more but I'll stop. I seriously considered pursuing a teaching degree so that I could inspire a love of learning (which I think most teachers want to do), because I actually understand it. But I would probably commit suicide if I failed. (I'm a self-made high average in every subject hard-working university student that understands grades don't really matter, if it helps. I'm also not those perfect student/person types that I described earlier, though I'm working towards that). Also, I have really strong and often controversial opinions that I'm learning to keep down because often it's not worth it.
I also want to point out that it's pointless to just tell people this. They have to come to an understanding by themselves.
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What you need to think about is that lazyness and apathy actually is...... "fun". Lazyness and apathy sounds like two very negative words, but thats how people work. While there obviously are exceptions, generally people dont like to work. People dont like to have a whole bunch of commitments hanging over their heads they need to finish. We like to slack. On our vacation we like to do lots of things, but non of them being "work", and few would deny an offer for extra vacation. Most people reading this would, should they win millions of dollars on a lottery, stop working or at least drastically reduce their work time. Possibly just work for the social aspects of it.
In short, we want to be lazy and apathetic. Should there be no outside factors like the family, the society, financial needs or the like which "forces" us to work, we'd all be pretty lazy and apathetic. Thats how we want to have it.
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A possibly interesting (and maybe philosophical) question: Is this actually something that should be fixed? If someone prefers being lazy and apathetic with the tradeoff that they, by traditional means of measuring success (car, house, family, all kind of gadgets, enough money for vacations now and then, etc), would also be "unsuccessful". Is that a bad thing? Is that something that actually needs to be fixed? What if they are perfectly happy with it?
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Get your experience, and tenure, then move on to a new school. Low income, low grade schools tend to have high levels of Apathy. It makes teaching very difficult.
However not all schools are like the one you are in. There are Good schools and Bad Schools. There is not much you can do in a Bad School if administration is not there to help.
Try to beef your resume with AP training, and other educational Certificates. With such little experience those extras will really boost your chances of getting an interview in a better school district. In addition, write down what you did on all your professional development days. Add a Professional development section to your Resume and try to add accomplishments and descriptions there.
I was teaching in a school district much like the one you describe 7 or 8 years ago. The teachers who stay there are the ones who are Apathetic. The teachers that want to achieve are the ones who move on to better school systems (or in my case industry). Remember that.
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On December 05 2012 23:27 Kreb wrote:
A possibly interesting (and maybe philosophical) question: Is this actually something that should be fixed? If someone prefers being lazy and apathetic with the tradeoff that they, by traditional means of measuring success (car, house, family, all kind of gadgets, enough money for vacations now and then, etc), would also be "unsuccessful". Is that a bad thing? Is that something that actually needs to be fixed? What if they are perfectly happy with it?
For kids, they have not matured to a point where they are fully aware of the consequences of their actions, and thus it is our responsibility to guide them and make them aware. For adults, we assume that they fully understand the consequences of giving up their job after winning the lottery, and have thoroughly debated the decision before making a choice. For kids, they have not learned the tools to make this decision, nor do they have the experience to understand the consequences. So we nudge them in a direction that we believe is appropriate (the success route), while keeping in mind what sort of happiness they want (at least I hope parents keep this in mind).
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United States24613 Posts
On December 05 2012 23:27 Kreb wrote:
A possibly interesting (and maybe philosophical) question: Is this actually something that should be fixed? If someone prefers being lazy and apathetic with the tradeoff that they, by traditional means of measuring success (car, house, family, all kind of gadgets, enough money for vacations now and then, etc), would also be "unsuccessful". Is that a bad thing? Is that something that actually needs to be fixed? What if they are perfectly happy with it?
I think too much emphasis is placed on schooling, and college isn't for everyone, despite what message you hear if you are a high school student. On the other hand, I think there are a large number of adults who wish they had taken their teachers' advice when they were in high school.
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On December 06 2012 00:22 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 23:27 Kreb wrote:
A possibly interesting (and maybe philosophical) question: Is this actually something that should be fixed? If someone prefers being lazy and apathetic with the tradeoff that they, by traditional means of measuring success (car, house, family, all kind of gadgets, enough money for vacations now and then, etc), would also be "unsuccessful". Is that a bad thing? Is that something that actually needs to be fixed? What if they are perfectly happy with it? I think too much emphasis is placed on schooling, and college isn't for everyone, despite what message you hear if you are a high school student. On the other hand, I think there are a large number of adults who wish they had taken their teachers' advice when they were in high school.
This times a million, i was in sage yet had to take summer school to graduate. I was told that if we did well on the stupid fucking standardized test we'd be given high school credit. I did very well(like top 92% overall) they didnt tell us though...the credits are worthless colleges dont accept them and you cant use them to graduate with and no one told me until the last month of school. So why should i trust a system that straight up lies and decieves me so the district gets some money yet doesnt provide a real education? I went onto college and dropped out i then went to an IT trade school and got my certs for general pc repair and through that own a house and car and everything and i graduated bottom 80 in my class. High school doesnt mean anything its all about how you take control of your own life after the state mandated babysitting ends at 18
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On December 05 2012 18:21 Reasonable wrote:
You say fun stuff about teaching. I went to high school in the U.S. and graduated there. My grades generally sucked. I was great with math, obviously finishing ex-soviet middle school. In physics I excelled at some applied project that I was told only one guy in the past 20 years succeeded. I couldn't pass American history to save my life, I failed a couple of classes that I found absolutely uninteresting. So at the end there I was, a science genius with 2.something GPA flipping burgers. So much for the Human Development Index of the U.S. But that is not the truth as I found out later on in my life. The truth is that with the exception of South Korea, Japan and Scandinavians, education system of every country is a bloody disaster. It is failing to catch up with the pace of technological progress of the past several decades and is incredibly inefficient. That goes for higher education as well. The truth is, as I came to realized, that in the modern world you need perseverance of the Nietzsche's superhuman, the will to power, greed, ambition, and all the wicked motivations you can find within you to overcome all the obstacles and succeed. 60% youth unemployment in Southern Europe, 50% unemployment among high school graduates without college degree in the U.S. Statistics tell us that most do not succeed nowadays. Anyway, I'm on the way of earning a PhD in economics in the next year or two and will probably start teaching college students right after here in Ukraine, 70% of whom will be unemployed or underemployed after graduation. Fun times, as always.
I think your classes will be interesting.
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On December 06 2012 00:36 FromShouri wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 00:22 micronesia wrote:On December 05 2012 23:27 Kreb wrote:
A possibly interesting (and maybe philosophical) question: Is this actually something that should be fixed? If someone prefers being lazy and apathetic with the tradeoff that they, by traditional means of measuring success (car, house, family, all kind of gadgets, enough money for vacations now and then, etc), would also be "unsuccessful". Is that a bad thing? Is that something that actually needs to be fixed? What if they are perfectly happy with it? I think too much emphasis is placed on schooling, and college isn't for everyone, despite what message you hear if you are a high school student. On the other hand, I think there are a large number of adults who wish they had taken their teachers' advice when they were in high school. This times a million, i was in sage yet had to take summer school to graduate. I was told that if we did well on the stupid fucking standardized test we'd be given high school credit. I did very well(like top 92% overall) they didnt tell us though...the credits are worthless colleges dont accept them and you cant use them to graduate with and no one told me until the last month of school. So why should i trust a system that straight up lies and decieves me so the district gets some money yet doesnt provide a real education? I went onto college and dropped out i then went to an IT trade school and got my certs for general pc repair and through that own a house and car and everything and i graduated bottom 80 in my class. High school doesnt mean anything its all about how you take control of your own life after the state mandated babysitting ends at 18
It's worth high school credit, but you have to find out whether the colleges you're applying to accept those credits. I don't get where you were deceived in this, since it clearly says, high school credit as in high school graduation credit, and not college entrance credit?
I am happy to hear that you made a life for yourself even though you dropped out of college after trade school and what not, but what do you think of the effort you needed to go to college, get into a trade school, get your certification, and then going on to get a house, versus the effort you would have needed to get to the same point in life had you not screwed up and needed summer school to graduate?
Anyways, your perspective argument that school doesn't provide a real education doesn't really stand since your case is that you needed summer school, and that they lied to you. In this case, if it were true and you've not warped what the instructors have said, then it is the administration of the school's fault for deceiving you, not the education system.
I'm sorry if this is mean, but maybe this is why an education is important, given that you needed summer school to graduate high school, in which many people say high school education is a joke. So it appears almost you didn't meet the minimum requirements for a basic education. I don't understand where the basis of your arguments are coming from, which is probably a result of your education.
It's hard to have an argument with someone with a minimal education. Their arguments aren't really...coherent, and it's hard to be objective when there's so many other flaws in the argument. :s
So while you're supporting micronesia's points, your reasons for supporting them aren't the correct reasons, and based off of what you've said, you're kind of twisting your experiences to fit his words.
On December 06 2012 00:22 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2012 23:27 Kreb wrote:
A possibly interesting (and maybe philosophical) question: Is this actually something that should be fixed? If someone prefers being lazy and apathetic with the tradeoff that they, by traditional means of measuring success (car, house, family, all kind of gadgets, enough money for vacations now and then, etc), would also be "unsuccessful". Is that a bad thing? Is that something that actually needs to be fixed? What if they are perfectly happy with it? I think too much emphasis is placed on schooling, and college isn't for everyone, despite what message you hear if you are a high school student. On the other hand, I think there are a large number of adults who wish they had taken their teachers' advice when they were in high school.
While I know that college isn't for everyone, it dramatically increases your chances to be successful (def: success). And as children, many have not matured enough to objectively determine whether college is correct for them, and instead we're starting this age of positive reinforcement where students who can't be bothered to try hard at school as they're not interested suddenly say that post-secondary education isn't right for them, because they've heard that college isn't right for everyone. And then they continue to reaffirm this point by doing poorly and blaming the education system instead of themselves.
Now who's fault is it that the education system isn't interesting for everyone; the teacher, the instructor, the student, or all. I choose all, but particularly the student for falling prey to positive reinforcement (but now it's a question of maturity and experience). It's an annoying spiral.
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Wife's a teacher, has been for several years. I help in the classroom and we talk a lot so I have a good idea of what goes on... here are my thoughts (I read your post):
- Parents matter the most and have the biggest impact, never is going to change
- Sadly, we do need ditchdiggers until quantum mechanics become intuitive to the human mind at age 8
- Generation of parents differs from previous generations, and will be for all time
- Education system is there to not let any of the special ones slip through the cracks. The vast majority of students do benefit greatly, but social, economic, and religious systems keep them from achieving more.
- Moreso than ever before, attentions have been fragmented beyond a reasonable point. The ways in which we receive any single media-based stimulus have multiplied and are trivially accessed. Kids, with more reason than ever, don't truly give a shit. Why should they? The impetus to succeed and any pride that is associated with success is something so rarely taught that these kids (incredibly) literally lack the power to imagine a reason for their own betterment.
Sad state of things, but that's the climate. The good news is that more and more people are becoming aware of this cycle and it theoretically can't last.
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On December 06 2012 02:24 tehemperorer wrote:
Kids, with more reason than ever, don't truly give a shit. Why should they? The impetus to succeed and any pride that is associated with success is something so rarely taught that these kids (incredibly) literally lack the power to imagine a reason for their own betterment.
Sad state of things, but that's the climate. The good news is that more and more people are becoming aware of this cycle and it theoretically can't last.
Again, this may be true in some school districts. I stress my original response to the OP. You can find a school district where the kids are motivated and where the parents we well educated and invested in their child's education.
They exist, they are competitive to get a position, and they pay better. Focus on building your resume, network, and acclamations. Set a goal of getting hired somewhere better.
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On December 06 2012 02:57 Smancer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 02:24 tehemperorer wrote:
Kids, with more reason than ever, don't truly give a shit. Why should they? The impetus to succeed and any pride that is associated with success is something so rarely taught that these kids (incredibly) literally lack the power to imagine a reason for their own betterment.
Sad state of things, but that's the climate. The good news is that more and more people are becoming aware of this cycle and it theoretically can't last. Again, this may be true in some school districts. I stress my original response to the OP. You can find a school district where the kids are motivated and where the parents we well educated and invested in their child's education. They exist, they are competitive to get a position, and they pay better. Focus on building your resume, network, and acclamations. Set a goal of getting hired somewhere better.
Yes, absolutely. I was speaking more of the district he described. But to your point, being the husband of a really good teacher, you typically have to put in a good wait to even get the chance to interview at these districts. Districts like what you describe are also uncommon, and in some cases hard to identify as such, which add to the impediment of getting hired there. Your solution is definitely valid but at the same time, is very hard to achieve.
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United States24613 Posts
On December 06 2012 01:40 Blisse wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 00:22 micronesia wrote:On December 05 2012 23:27 Kreb wrote:
A possibly interesting (and maybe philosophical) question: Is this actually something that should be fixed? If someone prefers being lazy and apathetic with the tradeoff that they, by traditional means of measuring success (car, house, family, all kind of gadgets, enough money for vacations now and then, etc), would also be "unsuccessful". Is that a bad thing? Is that something that actually needs to be fixed? What if they are perfectly happy with it? I think too much emphasis is placed on schooling, and college isn't for everyone, despite what message you hear if you are a high school student. On the other hand, I think there are a large number of adults who wish they had taken their teachers' advice when they were in high school. While I know that college isn't for everyone, it dramatically increases your chances to be successful (def: success).
This probably isn't true for every student. There are some students where college will hurt them more than help, with the current system (school system, job system, etc). This is most likely a minority, but not an insignificant group. For many people in the USA, college becomes a big financial expense which gives the student neither the skills and in many cases the degree necessary to improve their professional success.
Also, not every job is better when filled by college-educated people. This might be a good goal, but it requires a restructuring... the current system isn't sufficient.
And as children, many have not matured enough to objectively determine whether college is correct for them, and instead we're starting this age of positive reinforcement where students who can't be bothered to try hard at school as they're not interested suddenly say that post-secondary education isn't right for them, because they've heard that college isn't right for everyone. And then they continue to reaffirm this point by doing poorly and blaming the education system instead of themselves.
How did you determine this cycle you described? Is there a backing to it?
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Thanks all for your input! I just got home so let me address a few points in a single post.
On December 05 2012 23:27 Kreb wrote:
A possibly interesting (and maybe philosophical) question: Is this actually something that should be fixed? If someone prefers being lazy and apathetic with the tradeoff that they, by traditional means of measuring success (car, house, family, all kind of gadgets, enough money for vacations now and then, etc), would also be "unsuccessful". Is that a bad thing? Is that something that actually needs to be fixed? What if they are perfectly happy with it?
You make a fair point, but our current educational system can be summed up with the apt description of "No Child Left Behind." It's not fair to the students that their ability is judged a 5 part, gigantic multiple choice standardized test, but that's the way it is. The system is set for now, so we as teachers have to not leave anyone behind. I actually agree, let them fail, but it blows back on the teachers like a tornado if we do.
On December 05 2012 22:26 Pandemona wrote:
Ask yourself this one question too;
What about those students who don't want to learn Music? Don't find Music interesting? Don't care about treble clefs or how most songs have the same beat running constantly in the background or drummers using the same beat etcetc.
I for one speak from experience, in England you "have" to take music until a certain age, then you can drop it or focus fully on it. For the first 3 years of high school i did not care about music, i would much rather talk about science or math or better yet football....
To top it all of, how on earth does one suppose to find the effort to do a peice of "music" homework which they do not find interesting or see themself doing in either College or Work Life?
In my state, each student needs 2 credits (.5 per semester) of fine arts to graduate from high school. Fine arts, not music. You can choose between art, chorus, and band in my district. Of those three, chorus is logically the easiest course, unless you want to work to learn and instrument or you are artistically gifted. At .5 credits per semester, you would need 2 full years of a single class to earn your graduation requirements.
I understand that you don't find it interesting. But you could take a two years of art instead. Which interests you more? All of my classes are, to a certain extent, elective. The only students who have to take music are the elementary students. And they like it anyway. If you elect to take something then you should put in some effort, yes?
On December 05 2012 23:31 Smancer wrote:
Get your experience, and tenure, then move on to a new school. Low income, low grade schools tend to have high levels of Apathy. It makes teaching very difficult.
However not all schools are like the one you are in. There are Good schools and Bad Schools. There is not much you can do in a Bad School if administration is not there to help.
Try to beef your resume with AP training, and other educational Certificates. With such little experience those extras will really boost your chances of getting an interview in a better school district. In addition, write down what you did on all your professional development days. Add a Professional development section to your Resume and try to add accomplishments and descriptions there.
I was teaching in a school district much like the one you describe 7 or 8 years ago. The teachers who stay there are the ones who are Apathetic. The teachers that want to achieve are the ones who move on to better school systems (or in my case industry). Remember that.
Thanks, but I do realize that not all districts are like the one I'm currently at. But I did make mention that when I student taught in a district that is far, far better than the one I'm in now, I still saw the same kind of apathy from the students. I don't want to sound too defensive, but if I was the apathetic type of teacher, I probably wouldn't care how the students acted.
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On December 06 2012 01:40 Blisse wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 00:36 FromShouri wrote:On December 06 2012 00:22 micronesia wrote:On December 05 2012 23:27 Kreb wrote:
A possibly interesting (and maybe philosophical) question: Is this actually something that should be fixed? If someone prefers being lazy and apathetic with the tradeoff that they, by traditional means of measuring success (car, house, family, all kind of gadgets, enough money for vacations now and then, etc), would also be "unsuccessful". Is that a bad thing? Is that something that actually needs to be fixed? What if they are perfectly happy with it? I think too much emphasis is placed on schooling, and college isn't for everyone, despite what message you hear if you are a high school student. On the other hand, I think there are a large number of adults who wish they had taken their teachers' advice when they were in high school. This times a million, i was in sage yet had to take summer school to graduate. I was told that if we did well on the stupid fucking standardized test we'd be given high school credit. I did very well(like top 92% overall) they didnt tell us though...the credits are worthless colleges dont accept them and you cant use them to graduate with and no one told me until the last month of school. So why should i trust a system that straight up lies and decieves me so the district gets some money yet doesnt provide a real education? I went onto college and dropped out i then went to an IT trade school and got my certs for general pc repair and through that own a house and car and everything and i graduated bottom 80 in my class. High school doesnt mean anything its all about how you take control of your own life after the state mandated babysitting ends at 18 It's worth high school credit, but you have to find out whether the colleges you're applying to accept those credits. I don't get where you were deceived in this, since it clearly says, high school credit as in high school graduation credit, and not college entrance credit? I am happy to hear that you made a life for yourself even though you dropped out of college after trade school and what not, but what do you think of the effort you needed to go to college, get into a trade school, get your certification, and then going on to get a house, versus the effort you would have needed to get to the same point in life had you not screwed up and needed summer school to graduate? Anyways, your perspective argument that school doesn't provide a real education doesn't really stand since your case is that you needed summer school, and that they lied to you. In this case, if it were true and you've not warped what the instructors have said, then it is the administration of the school's fault for deceiving you, not the education system. I'm sorry if this is mean, but maybe this is why an education is important, given that you needed summer school to graduate high school, in which many people say high school education is a joke. So it appears almost you didn't meet the minimum requirements for a basic education. I don't understand where the basis of your arguments are coming from, which is probably a result of your education. It's hard to have an argument with someone with a minimal education. Their arguments aren't really...coherent, and it's hard to be objective when there's so many other flaws in the argument. :s So while you're supporting micronesia's points, your reasons for supporting them aren't the correct reasons, and based off of what you've said, you're kind of twisting your experiences to fit his words.
Yes the administration deceived me and all of the students and most certainly no, no college accepts them AND they can not be used to graduate with(IE they are entirely pointless, if you "count" them I actually have an extra credit but it literally means nothing). Perhaps it is you who has holes in their argument since you don't know what you're talking about? Schools in the US specifically don't care about actually educating kids, all they care about is the bottom line on the standardized tests. Most specifically I did meet the basics for a "normal education" but I was short 1 elective, I had to take PE to graduate, all because they told me all my high school career that those credits were accepted for a diploma and then a week before graduation they said they don't count and I either need to take summer school or come back in the fall to finish 1 elective,1 freaking elective to get my diploma.
Also no, with the amount of effort required to get where I am with college would be substantially different and harder. I had no debt after I stopped attending college and trade school cost me $300 just to take a test to show I already knew it(in other words because I had a life long hobby of fixing computers they just let me take the final exams and receive my certification). Also since I worked/interned for various tech repair agencies they felt I really didn't need to take the full course provided I passed the final. Education is a joke and just because someone does "horrible" by college and society standards in high school doesn't mean anything. High School isn't some magic ticket to a better life and neither is college. Just ask all those kids with theater and creative writing degrees.
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On December 06 2012 10:34 FromShouri wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 01:40 Blisse wrote:On December 06 2012 00:36 FromShouri wrote:On December 06 2012 00:22 micronesia wrote:On December 05 2012 23:27 Kreb wrote:
A possibly interesting (and maybe philosophical) question: Is this actually something that should be fixed? If someone prefers being lazy and apathetic with the tradeoff that they, by traditional means of measuring success (car, house, family, all kind of gadgets, enough money for vacations now and then, etc), would also be "unsuccessful". Is that a bad thing? Is that something that actually needs to be fixed? What if they are perfectly happy with it? I think too much emphasis is placed on schooling, and college isn't for everyone, despite what message you hear if you are a high school student. On the other hand, I think there are a large number of adults who wish they had taken their teachers' advice when they were in high school. This times a million, i was in sage yet had to take summer school to graduate. I was told that if we did well on the stupid fucking standardized test we'd be given high school credit. I did very well(like top 92% overall) they didnt tell us though...the credits are worthless colleges dont accept them and you cant use them to graduate with and no one told me until the last month of school. So why should i trust a system that straight up lies and decieves me so the district gets some money yet doesnt provide a real education? I went onto college and dropped out i then went to an IT trade school and got my certs for general pc repair and through that own a house and car and everything and i graduated bottom 80 in my class. High school doesnt mean anything its all about how you take control of your own life after the state mandated babysitting ends at 18 It's worth high school credit, but you have to find out whether the colleges you're applying to accept those credits. I don't get where you were deceived in this, since it clearly says, high school credit as in high school graduation credit, and not college entrance credit? I am happy to hear that you made a life for yourself even though you dropped out of college after trade school and what not, but what do you think of the effort you needed to go to college, get into a trade school, get your certification, and then going on to get a house, versus the effort you would have needed to get to the same point in life had you not screwed up and needed summer school to graduate? Anyways, your perspective argument that school doesn't provide a real education doesn't really stand since your case is that you needed summer school, and that they lied to you. In this case, if it were true and you've not warped what the instructors have said, then it is the administration of the school's fault for deceiving you, not the education system. I'm sorry if this is mean, but maybe this is why an education is important, given that you needed summer school to graduate high school, in which many people say high school education is a joke. So it appears almost you didn't meet the minimum requirements for a basic education. I don't understand where the basis of your arguments are coming from, which is probably a result of your education. It's hard to have an argument with someone with a minimal education. Their arguments aren't really...coherent, and it's hard to be objective when there's so many other flaws in the argument. :s So while you're supporting micronesia's points, your reasons for supporting them aren't the correct reasons, and based off of what you've said, you're kind of twisting your experiences to fit his words. Yes the administration deceived me and all of the students and most certainly no, no college accepts them AND they can not be used to graduate with(IE they are entirely pointless, if you "count" them I actually have an extra credit but it literally means nothing). Perhaps it is you who has holes in their argument since you don't know what you're talking about? Schools in the US specifically don't care about actually educating kids, all they care about is the bottom line on the standardized tests. Most specifically I did meet the basics for a "normal education" but I was short 1 elective, I had to take PE to graduate, all because they told me all my high school career that those credits were accepted for a diploma and then a week before graduation they said they don't count and I either need to take summer school or come back in the fall to finish 1 elective,1 freaking elective to get my diploma. Also no, with the amount of effort required to get where I am with college would be substantially different and harder. I had no debt after I stopped attending college and trade school cost me $300 just to take a test to show I already knew it(in other words because I had a life long hobby of fixing computers they just let me take the final exams and receive my certification). Also since I worked/interned for various tech repair agencies they felt I really didn't need to take the full course provided I passed the final. Education is a joke and just because someone does "horrible" by college and society standards in high school doesn't mean anything. High School isn't some magic ticket to a better life and neither is college. Just ask all those kids with theater and creative writing degrees.
Your last few lines are entirely true. BUT, to get any kind of a job you almost always need a high school diploma or GED. High school isn't a magic ticket, it's what is expected nowadays. Plus there are very few "upper tier" jobs that are accessible to those with just a high school diploma. Almost all jobs require some sort of higher education, whether it be a bachelor's degree, or an associate's degree. There are fewer and fewer jobs where you can start as an apprentice (without higher education) and work your way up.
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On December 06 2012 10:34 FromShouri wrote:
Yes the administration deceived me and all of the students and most certainly no, no college accepts them AND they can not be used to graduate with(IE they are entirely pointless, if you "count" them I actually have an extra credit but it literally means nothing). Perhaps it is you who has holes in their argument since you don't know what you're talking about? Schools in the US specifically don't care about actually educating kids, all they care about is the bottom line on the standardized tests. Most specifically I did meet the basics for a "normal education" but I was short 1 elective, I had to take PE to graduate, all because they told me all my high school career that those credits were accepted for a diploma and then a week before graduation they said they don't count and I either need to take summer school or come back in the fall to finish 1 elective,1 freaking elective to get my diploma.
Also no, with the amount of effort required to get where I am with college would be substantially different and harder. I had no debt after I stopped attending college and trade school cost me $300 just to take a test to show I already knew it(in other words because I had a life long hobby of fixing computers they just let me take the final exams and receive my certification). Also since I worked/interned for various tech repair agencies they felt I really didn't need to take the full course provided I passed the final. Education is a joke and just because someone does "horrible" by college and society standards in high school doesn't mean anything. High School isn't some magic ticket to a better life and neither is college. Just ask all those kids with theater and creative writing degrees.
Sorry if I offended you because I thought you failed a credit and needed summer school to get that credit back, when instead you were forced out of that credit and had to make it up in summer school.
Your problem here is not a matter of education. None of your argument confirms that education has anything to do with what you experienced. It was your administration that failed, not the education system. Your administration tried to screw you over. There's no argument about whether you received proper education or not, because it's not relevant in this context.
You can have an opinion about the education system being a joke, but you cannot use your experiences to validate this opinion because your experiences are not a reflection of the entire education system; it was the failure of one administrative body to properly qualify its students, as per its responsibilities.
Education is a joke if you view it as a joke and take shitty courses like theatre and creative writing degrees when you've never had the passion nor the care to pursue a life in this direction. And now that the market is oversaturated with all these "English" degrees, people who do have the passion in these fields can't get the jobs they want.
The people who do take these degrees took them for the sole purpose of getting a degree. This is not the fault of the education system, but of society's twisted perception that you need a degree to succeed. This forces kids that should never had tried for a degree, and instead just go out and get trade school diplomas or whatever, to instead spend 4 years in a program they don't care in, and pursue a career they don't care about, and oversaturate the market with all these qualified kids with no ambition in the market they're in, because they chose it out of duty, not of passion. This is the oversaturation students are experiencing in school. Not exactly a failure of the educational system, but it doesn't help.
High school and college is definitely not a ticket to a better life. But the reality in today's market is that upon finishing high school and college or university, your chances of leading a better life is several times better than the kid who dropped out in Grade 10 because he couldn't take it. Dropping out for the reason that you can't take the studying is a serious reflection on a person's inability to overcome obstacles, a huge indication of whether you have the ability to be successful or not.
I'm glad that you made up for your shitty administration and their failure to present to you the correct choices you need to get into post-secondary school, but you cannot use that as an argument as to why the education system is broken.
As a sidenote, I really enjoy teachers who really enjoy teaching. I think a lot of teachers are like that. Most people irregardless of their intelligence really like to inspire something, teach something, change someone's perception of something.
It doesn't really matter to me how well they teach, but how well they can convey the beauty of what they're teaching. I can always go back on my notes to clarify something, but it matters more to me that the teacher inspires me to actually enjoy and think about the material (even though I can do that on my own as well). Maybe I'm different in this regard.
Kids will talk about it too. If a teacher is particularly eccentric because he's passionate, students will notice and will talk about it. And getting people to talk about how passionate he seems, even if they don't really understand all of the material, helps in the long run for them to understand why what they're learning was cool. It's like that thing where a lot of people when they're older wished they'd paid more attention in school because they finally realized that the things they were learning were actually really cool and important. If you can convey this sense while they're learning, then your job is basically done.
You probably won't be able to change the entire school, but you can definitely influence at least some kids. My high school was really, really shit. In my opinion, many great teachers who really enjoyed teaching, but nothing could be done for all the students. One of the teachers was so good that he made the entire class take history the next year. I'm talking about a bunch of delinquents in the class too. So it's definitely possible if you approach learning with the right attitude. I'm not super sure about music, but I wish you all the best. We need more people like you who care about the students.
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Its incredible how parents dont give a sh1t about their childrens. I saw it when i was at h-school, Parents ar tierd of going to work, they think that just because children have home, food, videogames(So they dont try to talk to the daddy or mommy when they ar watching TV, GOD FORBIDDEN) they ar doing a great job as a parent, No, you ar not you lazy mothafacker. (It happened to me, YO MOM AND DADDY SUP DOODS)
I dont have a KID, im a 21 years guy, that is unemployed at moment and trying to get at a public university after leaving payed internship and computer science course at a Private University. I clearly dont know how to raise a kid, and i dont really know how to live my life the way i want it to be, but im aways trying to improve, right? That's what you need to do with your kids, You need to set the example, YES A FREAKING EXAMPLE!! I know if you ar a parent, you ar tierd of work, bills ar hell, things can be sh1tty at moment economy, life, and bla bla bla all sux. But you need to get all-together, and help your son.
Kids ar lazy, they ll waste all they time at games and internet, and if no1 cares about then, they wont do homework, why the hell they would? its not fun!! And they ll see that they ar probally doing the minimun to get pass, and that's ok for then. (Hey me from 10 years ago ...)
Here in brazil, 90% of the teachers of public schools dont give a sh1t, they ar underpayed, they work a lot (im speaking about number of hours, not quality.), really far from they homes, And they ar, what you childrens ll become, they probally get out of public school, without any real education, they did not study enough, so they werent able to get into a nice university or a nice course, so they take again, the easy-way though. They become a teacher, they know it ll be stressful, but its better then MCDonalds, they dont really care, they ar there to make a livin, they dont care if your children ll learn something or not, because at the end, That's what they have done all theyr life, getting by, one day at the time.
Teachers salary is something like 1200R$ to 2000R$ (500 to 1000 USD). That's Average Salary of brazil today. In 10, maybe 20 years, you ll be able to get a House, and maybe a car.
You know the only way to fail at public education system at brazil? Dont go there, that's the ONLY WAY TO FAIL, Even if you dont know sh1t, they ll pass you, because teacher and school staff, get bonus for grades, so dont worry, they ll inflate the fack out of your grades.
I dont know how is the best education system, hell, im still trying to get my life on track, but what can i say is that: If you ar a teacher, i know some days ll be HELL, but try to make your classes fun, try to really care about teaching and the way your's students learn.
Almost all my life, i have been a sh1t student, and sth1t person overall. But i can say, kids ar not lazy, if you make it more then " You need to study or you wont be anything when you grown up", they ll for sure, at leat try, TRY, because what i saw when i was at high-school, they were not trying, they just did not give a fack.
Ps: OFC, there's good teachers, And i met 1 or 2 on the way, and those teacher, ll be the ones that make's the real diference at your life.
PS2: Doenst matter if you ar a teacher or a parent, or both, just do your part, one thing I have learn, is that you cant control things, you can try to make better, but you cant control, make your part, the best you can, and then, go from there.
Sorry for my english.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51452 Posts
On December 05 2012 22:26 Pandemona wrote:
Ask yourself this one question too;
What about those students who don't want to learn Music? Don't find Music interesting? Don't care about treble clefs or how most songs have the same beat running constantly in the background or drummers using the same beat etcetc.
I for one speak from experience, in England you "have" to take music until a certain age, then you can drop it or focus fully on it. For the first 3 years of high school i did not care about music, i would much rather talk about science or math or better yet football....
To top it all of, how on earth does one suppose to find the effort to do a peice of "music" homework which they do not find interesting or see themself doing in either College or Work Life?
MaximusT United States. December 06 2012 12:09. Posts 118
In my state, each student needs 2 credits (.5 per semester) of fine arts to graduate from high school. Fine arts, not music. You can choose between art, chorus, and band in my district. Of those three, chorus is logically the easiest course, unless you want to work to learn and instrument or you are artistically gifted. At .5 credits per semester, you would need 2 full years of a single class to earn your graduation requirements.
I understand that you don't find it interesting. But you could take a two years of art instead. Which interests you more? All of my classes are, to a certain extent, elective. The only students who have to take music are the elementary students. And they like it anyway. If you elect to take something then you should put in some effort, yes?
Yeah totally understand if they have chosen the subject. I thought we were discussing elementary level which im pretty sure it is made "compulsry" (you have to understand then UK education system is way fucking different xD)
But i agree, if people choose to do music they should put effort in, there is no reason why you should choose something to say "meh" to it, makes no sense.
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On December 06 2012 07:37 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 01:40 Blisse wrote:
While I know that college isn't for everyone, it dramatically increases your chances to be successful (def: success). This probably isn't true for every student. There are some students where college will hurt them more than help, with the current system (school system, job system, etc). This is most likely a minority, but not an insignificant group. For many people in the USA, college becomes a big financial expense which gives the student neither the skills and in many cases the degree necessary to improve their professional success. Also, not every job is better when filled by college-educated people. This might be a good goal, but it requires a restructuring... the current system isn't sufficient.
I forgot about the financial expenses of American universities, but it's hard to consider telling someone not to attend how important getting a secondary degree is nowadays, even though people seem to agree just having a graduate's degree isn't enough.
I still consider the cases where individuals who head into post-secondary programs for the sake of getting a degree irrelevant. Many times, the program doesn't give the student the correct skills because the student never truly had the drive to compete in the program; they entered the program for the sole purpose of getting a degree and a job, not because they wanted to be in the program. This is probably a fault of society for forcing people to choose careers before they're ready, but I don't believe there are people who are passionate about their program that aren't positively benefited from pursuing a degree because they always manage to supplement it with something extra (now is the degree even necessary in this case?).
Show nested quote +And as children, many have not matured enough to objectively determine whether college is correct for them, and instead we're starting this age of positive reinforcement where students who can't be bothered to try hard at school as they're not interested suddenly say that post-secondary education isn't right for them, because they've heard that college isn't right for everyone. And then they continue to reaffirm this point by doing poorly and blaming the education system instead of themselves. How did you determine this cycle you described? Is there a backing to it?
I know this is a weak argument, but Facebook for the last 4 years, haha. Not a majority, but a vocal minority who uses the education system as a crutch.
I don't argue against there being a problem, but I argue against people who haven't put in the right effort using their experiences with it as an excuse. Now I have to define the right effort, so that itself might be the problem, that people can't find the motivation to work in school. ack, my head is hurting from the circularness of this discussion, :/ Everything influences everything else. It's hard to pinpoint exactly what. There's definitely a problem going on though.
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On December 06 2012 12:44 Blisse wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2012 10:34 FromShouri wrote:
Yes the administration deceived me and all of the students and most certainly no, no college accepts them AND they can not be used to graduate with(IE they are entirely pointless, if you "count" them I actually have an extra credit but it literally means nothing). Perhaps it is you who has holes in their argument since you don't know what you're talking about? Schools in the US specifically don't care about actually educating kids, all they care about is the bottom line on the standardized tests. Most specifically I did meet the basics for a "normal education" but I was short 1 elective, I had to take PE to graduate, all because they told me all my high school career that those credits were accepted for a diploma and then a week before graduation they said they don't count and I either need to take summer school or come back in the fall to finish 1 elective,1 freaking elective to get my diploma.
Also no, with the amount of effort required to get where I am with college would be substantially different and harder. I had no debt after I stopped attending college and trade school cost me $300 just to take a test to show I already knew it(in other words because I had a life long hobby of fixing computers they just let me take the final exams and receive my certification). Also since I worked/interned for various tech repair agencies they felt I really didn't need to take the full course provided I passed the final. Education is a joke and just because someone does "horrible" by college and society standards in high school doesn't mean anything. High School isn't some magic ticket to a better life and neither is college. Just ask all those kids with theater and creative writing degrees.
I'm glad that you made up for your shitty administration and their failure to present to you the correct choices you need to get into post-secondary school, but you cannot use that as an argument as to why the education system is broken.
This is the point I want to touch on the most, some of what you say is true, 1 objective opinion doesn't prove education is in the shitter. However, my school administration isn't a minority, look at Chicago, look at any major cities school system in the US and you will find the same principles. Teach the test, don't teach an education. I did enjoy learning in some classes and some of the classes I hated at first because the teacher and me butted heads quite often turned into some of my most cherished school moments. However what I say isn't an objective opinion, the entire point of the US education system right now is to teach to the standardized test so the district can get "more funding".
That is all I ever heard from the administration was "you can help us get more funding!" and what do they do with the funding? Possibly replace their 10 year old windows 98 machines that are running xp or possibly hire more teachers or something that had a positive effect? No my district spent it on uniforms for sports. You'll find it is the same story in districts across the United States.
The other line we were fed was that we won't have a good life with out college and we have to prepare, prepare, prepare! It is true that you should finish high school or even at the very least get a GED, however as you've pointed out, just going through college to get a degree can end up hurting you more then helping you. I knew a co worker of mine who racked up about 50,000 in college debt to get a job that pays 9 bucks an hour doing IT work, that wasn't even in his degrees field and he choose a half way logical degree in my opinion(business and risk analysis). Just because it increases your chance doesn't mean much when it is still a gamble without the utmost in demand degree(which changes daily, weekly, monthly).
Onto the other point is that it says you're from Canada and I am from US, we are trying to argue a problem in a way that is completely separate because of the different ways the system itself works. There is absolutely no reason to not go to college in Canada from what i read because most of it is paid for by taxes. In the US you have to finance and gain scholarships(which may not even pay for everything). We've all heard the story of the genius kid who even with all the scholarships they qualify for, still can't afford the Harvard, Stanford, and other high end college's tuition, room, and book fees.
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The problem I have with the argument about the economic disparity being this indicator for success is again that students are pressuring themselves (due to society or whatever) to attend the top universities when they could easily get their experience and diploma at a college for significantly cheaper.
So it's rather more an argument against whether it's the education system's fault for being unable to change society's views that the only way you can have a successful life is to attend a top university, because the overwhelming pressure to get a degree appears to be the root of this all, or is that part of the education system?
And similarly, is it the education system's fault that the administrators and faculty suck, and/or get funded by their percentage pass rate instead of their teaching ability, because there's no way for government officials to research every school in the country every year to determine who should get more or less funding. Now it's an interwoven mess between the government, society, and administrators, so how can you denounce the education system other than saying it hasn't adapted to this changing view, even though we've known this problem has existed for a while now and we don't really have any solutions to it.
I get that my perceptions have been warped from being from Canada and trying to speak for American schools is not the same as experiencing it firsthand, but everything I've said is from what I've gathered of the American education system. I was never speaking about the Canadian education system, because I'm aware that there are differences. While you're saying that entire districts do this, again, there's always the tie in that your education system is pointing downwards because of a lack of good faculty rather than a failure of the education system. When you have people like MaximusT who is actively trying to better his students versus the administrators you've described who just pass students to maintain funding, can you see why it's difficult to simply say the education system is broken when the teachers are just shit in those regions? Is it the education system that's broken if you suddenly had great teachers?
If this makes it simpler, we have:
- society's expectations
- shitty faculty and administrators
- poor student self-motivation and focus
- economic disparities
to battle through before we can speak directly about the education system being a failure, because they're all so heavily interwoven. Is it the education system that needs to catch up, or is it people need to realize many degrees are unnecessary? Or a huge compromise between them all?
My high school is a sports focused high school whose average grades lie about the bottom 10% of the district, and my family lives on minimum wage, but the difference is that most of the administration actually cared about its students (at least that's the impression I got), so is the education system broken when it is the administration that sucks, or when it is the student that doesn't have the foresight to get a job so they could attend the best university that they could afford, or some other reason? It's hard to say.
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EPT
