On October 16 2012 07:03 dAPhREAk wrote: wtf.... how did this turn into a stephano raped a 14 year old thread (jokingly).
Because "abuser" in French in that context ("abusing" a 14yo) means to rape. Granted Stephano doesn't have the best grasp of the English language, so he may have been trying to express something else, but this looks to be the most compelling interpretation.
Even if he meant the English meaning of "abuse," abusing a 14yo is also reprehensible, whether the nature of it was sexual or not.
pathetic. he was joking about having consensual sex with a 14 year old iirc. using the term rape implies lack of consent. its two different things. plus, the age of consent in france is apparently 15, so its a big "who fucking cares" moment for everyone. if i had consensual sex with a 17 year old in the U.S. and joked about it, it would be less than intelligent of me to joke about it, but would also be a huge who fucking cares moment.
if you want to be correct, say "statutory rape" so that all of us will know and can proceed with not caring.
edit: he said abused, not just sex. but i maintain my who fucking cares attitude.
14 is less than 15. Under the age of consent is rape, whether she signs an affidavit stating consent.
Also, please don't joke about raping a child in the US either. 17 is less than 18, and it is a crime that is more often than not prosecuted. If you make the statement publicly and in order to gain publicity, it increases the likelihood of getting prosecuted. It won't be a who fucking cares moment, because you would have raped a child. (assuming its one of those states with the aoc at 18, but you get the point).
On October 16 2012 06:54 waitwhat wrote: That apology is full of crap. It isn't even written by him. He doesn't speak English that well nor does that statement have any grammatical errors. If it were a real apology, the management wouldn't have written it for him. Also, you have to be pretty fucked up in the head to joke about raping under-aged girls.
To Stephano: You knew you were at the top and represented the world of E-Sports. As soon as you come into money you start acting like a crazy man and say stupid shit that completely ruins OUR image.. not just yours. This is a huge setback for EG and E-Sports as a whole. Since EG will definitely keep you, I hope they get you some professional help.
You're not familiar with Stephano, are you?
Acting like a crazy man and saying stupid shit is literally all Stephano has done besides slaying mad nerds. No one was bothered by it because he wasn't on EG. Now he is. And you're all butt hurt. Why do people panic about these things?
Joking about raping a 14 year old in unacceptable no matter who you are.
This is moot and wrong. Stephano didn't joke about raping a 14 year old. Besides that, you just said joking was unacceptable without providing any evidence of that claim. That seems like an over the top response to humor.
lol what are you looking for exactly? A quote from the bible saying "tho shalt not make them rapejokes (unless theyre funny)"?
If someone comes to me with the attitude of telling people not to do something for no reason, my advice is their approach is wrong and they should just ignore things they don't like.
How about "It's wrong for public figures with great exposure to joke about raping 14 year olds is wrong because they promote the idea that raping children is a light-hearted and acceptable topic. Almost as if they are encouraging the behavior..."
That's just one argument for example's sake.
Jokes are light-hearted? No kidding, the point is to get your jollies.
People joke about murder, that doesn't mean they're encouraging people to be the next Ted Kaczynski. I assume this is why you said "almost as if they are encouraging the behavior," because you know you can't establish a real causal connection. Normal people can draw a line between reality and fantasy. This is why we are playing video games to begin with. And those who don't get it can always just turn the TV off before they get upset.
Also, as I said before, since Stephano is French and he was probably fumbling for the right word, and "abuser" means "to rape" in this context, it's very likely that he was indeed joking a raping a 14 year old.
Alternatively, since he was making a joke, he picked the quirkiest word because "abused" specifically leaves the audience to fill in the blanks.
Sam I have killed a man yesterday
Suppose he said this, should we wait for the appropriate subreddit that thinks all young men are murderers to email Intel and threaten the real flow of money into this scene?
On October 16 2012 07:03 dAPhREAk wrote: wtf.... how did this turn into a stephano raped a 14 year old thread (jokingly).
Because "abuser" in French in that context ("abusing" a 14yo) means to rape. Granted Stephano doesn't have the best grasp of the English language, so he may have been trying to express something else, but this looks to be the most compelling interpretation.
Even if he meant the English meaning of "abuse," abusing a 14yo is also reprehensible, whether the nature of it was sexual or not.
pathetic. he was joking about having consensual sex with a 14 year old iirc. using the term rape implies lack of consent. its two different things. plus, the age of consent in france is apparently 15, so its a big "who fucking cares" moment for everyone. if i had consensual sex with a 17 year old in the U.S. and joked about it, it would be less than intelligent of me to joke about it, but would also be a huge who fucking cares moment.
if you want to be correct, say "statutory rape" so that all of us will know and can proceed with not caring.
edit: he said abused, not just sex. but i maintain my who fucking cares attitude.
14 is less than 15. Under the age of consent is rape, whether she signs an affidavit stating consent.
Also, please don't joke about raping a child in the US either. 17 is less than 18, and it is a crime that is more often than not prosecuted. If you make the statement publicly and in order to gain publicity, it increases the likelihood of getting prosecuted. It won't be a who fucking cares moment, because you would have raped a child. (assuming its one of those states with the aoc at 18, but you get the point).
Statutory rape is different than and is treated differently than rape. The age of consent in France is 15, in other jurisdictions in Europe, it's lower. What's the difference if it's a joke? You can only joke about having sex down to a 15 year old if you're a French citizen? Suppose you're on holiday in Spain, can you joke about having sex with 13 year olds yet? A joke about a girl who doesn't even exist?
On October 16 2012 06:54 waitwhat wrote: That apology is full of crap. It isn't even written by him. He doesn't speak English that well nor does that statement have any grammatical errors. If it were a real apology, the management wouldn't have written it for him. Also, you have to be pretty fucked up in the head to joke about raping under-aged girls.
To Stephano: You knew you were at the top and represented the world of E-Sports. As soon as you come into money you start acting like a crazy man and say stupid shit that completely ruins OUR image.. not just yours. This is a huge setback for EG and E-Sports as a whole. Since EG will definitely keep you, I hope they get you some professional help.
You're not familiar with Stephano, are you?
Acting like a crazy man and saying stupid shit is literally all Stephano has done besides slaying mad nerds. No one was bothered by it because he wasn't on EG. Now he is. And you're all butt hurt. Why do people panic about these things?
Joking about raping a 14 year old in unacceptable no matter who you are.
This is moot and wrong. Stephano didn't joke about raping a 14 year old. Besides that, you just said joking was unacceptable without providing any evidence of that claim. That seems like an over the top response to humor.
lol what are you looking for exactly? A quote from the bible saying "tho shalt not make them rapejokes (unless theyre funny)"?
If someone comes to me with the attitude of telling people not to do something for no reason, my advice is their approach is wrong and they should just ignore things they don't like.
How about "It's wrong for public figures with great exposure to joke about raping 14 year olds is wrong because they promote the idea that raping children is a light-hearted and acceptable topic. Almost as if they are encouraging the behavior..."
That's just one argument for example's sake.
Jokes are light-hearted? No kidding, the point is to get your jollies.
People joke about murder, that doesn't mean they're encouraging people to be the next Ted Kaczynski. I assume this is why you said "almost as if they are encouraging the behavior," because you know you can't establish a real causal connection. Normal people can draw a line between reality and fantasy. This is why we are playing video games to begin with. And those who don't get it can always just turn the TV off before they get upset.
Also, as I said before, since Stephano is French and he was probably fumbling for the right word, and "abuser" means "to rape" in this context, it's very likely that he was indeed joking a raping a 14 year old.
Alternatively, since he was making a joke, he picked the quirkiest word because "abused" specifically leaves the audience to fill in the blanks.
Suppose he said this, should we wait for the appropriate subreddit that thinks all young men are murderers to email Intel and threaten the real flow of money into this scene?
But it's something he did not want to say in public. If he meant it as a joke (or something else) probably he wouldn't care.
Looks like the "You can joke of everything but not with everyone" quote applies here. The joke was pretty wrong but the "people that call themselves community"'s reaction is infinitly stupider.
And yeah, he knows that it's a "bad joke", and he would't have did it in public if not for unfortunate circonstances.
On October 16 2012 06:54 waitwhat wrote: That apology is full of crap. It isn't even written by him. He doesn't speak English that well nor does that statement have any grammatical errors. If it were a real apology, the management wouldn't have written it for him. Also, you have to be pretty fucked up in the head to joke about raping under-aged girls.
To Stephano: You knew you were at the top and represented the world of E-Sports. As soon as you come into money you start acting like a crazy man and say stupid shit that completely ruins OUR image.. not just yours. This is a huge setback for EG and E-Sports as a whole. Since EG will definitely keep you, I hope they get you some professional help.
You're not familiar with Stephano, are you?
Acting like a crazy man and saying stupid shit is literally all Stephano has done besides slaying mad nerds. No one was bothered by it because he wasn't on EG. Now he is. And you're all butt hurt. Why do people panic about these things?
Joking about raping a 14 year old in unacceptable no matter who you are.
This is moot and wrong. Stephano didn't joke about raping a 14 year old. Besides that, you just said joking was unacceptable without providing any evidence of that claim. That seems like an over the top response to humor.
lol what are you looking for exactly? A quote from the bible saying "tho shalt not make them rapejokes (unless theyre funny)"?
If someone comes to me with the attitude of telling people not to do something for no reason, my advice is their approach is wrong and they should just ignore things they don't like.
How about "It's wrong for public figures with great exposure to joke about raping 14 year olds is wrong because they promote the idea that raping children is a light-hearted and acceptable topic. Almost as if they are encouraging the behavior..."
That's just one argument for example's sake.
Jokes are light-hearted? No kidding, the point is to get your jollies.
People joke about murder, that doesn't mean they're encouraging people to be the next Ted Kaczynski. I assume this is why you said "almost as if they are encouraging the behavior," because you know you can't establish a real causal connection. Normal people can draw a line between reality and fantasy. This is why we are playing video games to begin with. And those who don't get it can always just turn the TV off before they get upset.
Also, as I said before, since Stephano is French and he was probably fumbling for the right word, and "abuser" means "to rape" in this context, it's very likely that he was indeed joking a raping a 14 year old.
Alternatively, since he was making a joke, he picked the quirkiest word because "abused" specifically leaves the audience to fill in the blanks.
Suppose he said this, should we wait for the appropriate subreddit that thinks all young men are murderers to email Intel and threaten the real flow of money into this scene?
On October 16 2012 07:03 dAPhREAk wrote: wtf.... how did this turn into a stephano raped a 14 year old thread (jokingly).
Because "abuser" in French in that context ("abusing" a 14yo) means to rape. Granted Stephano doesn't have the best grasp of the English language, so he may have been trying to express something else, but this looks to be the most compelling interpretation.
Even if he meant the English meaning of "abuse," abusing a 14yo is also reprehensible, whether the nature of it was sexual or not.
pathetic. he was joking about having consensual sex with a 14 year old iirc. using the term rape implies lack of consent. its two different things. plus, the age of consent in france is apparently 15, so its a big "who fucking cares" moment for everyone. if i had consensual sex with a 17 year old in the U.S. and joked about it, it would be less than intelligent of me to joke about it, but would also be a huge who fucking cares moment.
if you want to be correct, say "statutory rape" so that all of us will know and can proceed with not caring.
edit: he said abused, not just sex. but i maintain my who fucking cares attitude.
14 is less than 15. Under the age of consent is rape, whether she signs an affidavit stating consent.
Also, please don't joke about raping a child in the US either. 17 is less than 18, and it is a crime that is more often than not prosecuted. If you make the statement publicly and in order to gain publicity, it increases the likelihood of getting prosecuted. It won't be a who fucking cares moment, because you would have raped a child. (assuming its one of those states with the aoc at 18, but you get the point).
Statutory rape is different than and is treated differently than rape. The age of consent in France is 15, in other jurisdictions in Europe, it's lower. What's the difference if it's a joke? You can only joke about having sex down to a 15 year old if you're a French citizen? Suppose you're on holiday in Spain, can you joke about having sex with 13 year olds yet? A joke about a girl who doesn't even exist?
Sexual crimes are much more heinous and frowned upon than murder. Imagine someone saying "I just want to kill my professor!" compared to "I just want to rape my professor!". Two completely different things and one of them you'd never hear. You have to look at social context, and unless you live under a rock you could understand the difference. Not sure about how it is in Europe, but any sort of "joke" regarding sexual abuse of minors in a public setting is highly off limits in the US.
On October 16 2012 01:44 Cheezfactory wrote: Does USA understand black humor ? Oh sorry ... "land of freedom" you have everything to learn to other countries...
Remember those words were taken out of the context.... Stephano's NOT pedophile or gay or whatever .... he did never rape animals, little sisters, vegetables... WTF guys he was just trolling around ... something YOU don't understand ... in "land of freedom"...
The "it was just a joke folks" on the other hand fail to understand that he is a representing a company and whether EG management or even a significant majority of americans understands and appreciates the "joke" is irrelevant if it can still cause reputational damage due to sponsors being less interested in sponsoring teams or even sc2 as a whole if its flagship players are known for such juvenile and divisive humor
Even professional NFL players can get suspended for eg racial slurs. A public figure in a company who behaves poorly in his private life can be fired if that private life somehow becomes publicly known.
In other words, you and Stephano ought to both grow up
I'm not specially talking about the company. I'm talking about the private nature of those words. I'm talking about people who can imagine Stephano as a pedophile after this (i guess ) bad joke...this is ridiculous. That was a PRIVATE joke taken out of his context ...
Joke's are supposed to be funny. This is not good for the scene, it's not good for Stephano, it's not good for EG. This happens far too often with him and EG understands it has to stop. So what do they do? Hit him where it hurts, his wallet and his popularity.
It's not about being a badass, it's about having taste. No one's saying Stephano's a pussy if he comes out and apologizes, and no one's calling french people pussies if they don't make joke's about raping children. It's not about whether or not he's a pedophile, it's about how these comments undermine his integrity. How are people supposed to respect and give him credibility if this is the kind of behaviour he portrays?
And it is business. Everything people tie to Stephano they tie to EG. If they think Stephano is a pedophile and EG does nothing, then logically EG condones his behaviour. That's not good for business. It became business the second it went public and by the coinciding fact that Stephano is contracted to EG. To say otherwise is either willful ignorance or stupidity.
If EG didn't do anything about this I would hope the community would. Just as it is damaging to EG it is damaging to our game. I know he was probably joking, or that maybe he didn't rape a 14 year old. It doesn't matter. The possibility, and the fact that he joked about it is damaging to our game. Just like Destiny's whole drama this is damaging to everyone associated with Stephano, to TL, to Twitch, to any video game trying to legitimize itself in the eyes of the general public.
We can't just excuse this kind of behaviour. When this happens the players need to know it's unacceptable, and the other organizations in the sport have to demonstrate that it's unacceptable. Destiny got kicked off his team, had his stream unfeatured and other public backlash. By comparison, Stephano got a slap on the wrist.
I agree that even though EG took action but in comparison to what Orb did and the punishment he got, Stephano certainly got a lot of leniency. That is why as a father to a girl, I am doing what EG should have done. I am kicking out EG from my fav team's list.
Memes are not often appropriate, but I think it fits this time. Since we know there's no crime involved and its just about an inappropriate comment, I think a lot of people could learn from the mindset of Mr. Stephen Fry.
On October 16 2012 08:01 Killscreen wrote: Self validating external sense? What are you smoking? ( pm me )
What we are looking for is a logical reason for why Stefano was wrong. What was ethically wrong about what he did, and what would be the consequences if it went unpunished?
lol.
well, what I was arguing from there would be the meta-ethical view that there are no actual moral facts about the world. Ontological nihilism is the term used to describe such a view. Then we have various theories on semantics... The one I often favour is called emotivism and its basically the idea that valuestatements (such as in morality) do not express propositions but rather attitudes of the speaker, that is emotional attitudes. I do not think that this always is the case as I do believe we often speak and think about morality as if our moral judgements are actual facts about the world (which of course they are not, there are no moral facts just as there are no aesthetic objective facts), and this jumping back and forth between meaning different things yet using the same words certainly adds to the confusion.
Logical reason? Im not sure what you mean by logic here. What was ethically wrong? Well I suppose I could argue many things if I wanted to, but lets just settle with that by making such jokes youre trivializing a very serious issue, and that certainly is not a good thing. The consequences if it went unpunished? well thats pretty obvious isnt it? He would be none the wiser, and would probably rapejoke all his way to the bank ^^
On October 16 2012 08:01 Killscreen wrote: Self validating external sense? What are you smoking? ( pm me )
What we are looking for is a logical reason for why Stefano was wrong. What was ethically wrong about what he did, and what would be the consequences if it went unpunished?
lol.
well, what I was arguing from there would be the meta-ethical view that there are no actual moral facts about the world. Ontological nihilism is the term used to describe such a view. Then we have various theories on semantics... The one I often favour is called emotivism and its basically the idea that valuestatements (such as in morality) do not express propositions but rather attitudes of the speaker, that is emotional attitudes. I do not think that this always is the case as I do believe we often speak and think about morality as if our moral judgements are actual facts about the world (which of course they are not, there are no moral facts just as there are no aesthetic objective facts), and this jumping back and forth between meaning different things yet using the same words certainly adds to the confusion.
Logical reason? Im not sure what you mean by logic here. What was ethically wrong? Well I suppose I could argue many things if I wanted to, but lets just settle with that by making such jokes youre trivializing a very serious issue, and that certainly is not a good thing. The consequences if it went unpunished? well thats pretty obvious isnt it? He would be none the wiser, and would probably rapejoke all his way to the bank ^^
So this bit would be morally wrong then?
Philosophical ethics discussions aside, lets remember that this is about what was said, not done, which makes it a lot simpler. For me to say it was wrong it would have had to caused a harm to other people, and he had to have known that when he said it. The guy who posted the mohammed video a month back was wrong for instance.
On October 16 2012 07:03 dAPhREAk wrote: wtf.... how did this turn into a stephano raped a 14 year old thread (jokingly).
Because "abuser" in French in that context ("abusing" a 14yo) means to rape. Granted Stephano doesn't have the best grasp of the English language, so he may have been trying to express something else, but this looks to be the most compelling interpretation.
Even if he meant the English meaning of "abuse," abusing a 14yo is also reprehensible, whether the nature of it was sexual or not.
pathetic. he was joking about having consensual sex with a 14 year old iirc. using the term rape implies lack of consent. its two different things. plus, the age of consent in france is apparently 15, so its a big "who fucking cares" moment for everyone. if i had consensual sex with a 17 year old in the U.S. and joked about it, it would be less than intelligent of me to joke about it, but would also be a huge who fucking cares moment.
if you want to be correct, say "statutory rape" so that all of us will know and can proceed with not caring.
edit: he said abused, not just sex. but i maintain my who fucking cares attitude.
14 is less than 15. Under the age of consent is rape, whether she signs an affidavit stating consent.
Also, please don't joke about raping a child in the US either. 17 is less than 18, and it is a crime that is more often than not prosecuted. If you make the statement publicly and in order to gain publicity, it increases the likelihood of getting prosecuted. It won't be a who fucking cares moment, because you would have raped a child. (assuming its one of those states with the aoc at 18, but you get the point).
lol. its not raping, its statutorily raping. stop over-dramatizing it. calling it rape is just stupid and misleading, which i assume is the intent of the posters.
On October 16 2012 06:54 waitwhat wrote: That apology is full of crap. It isn't even written by him. He doesn't speak English that well nor does that statement have any grammatical errors. If it were a real apology, the management wouldn't have written it for him. Also, you have to be pretty fucked up in the head to joke about raping under-aged girls.
To Stephano: You knew you were at the top and represented the world of E-Sports. As soon as you come into money you start acting like a crazy man and say stupid shit that completely ruins OUR image.. not just yours. This is a huge setback for EG and E-Sports as a whole. Since EG will definitely keep you, I hope they get you some professional help.
You're not familiar with Stephano, are you?
Acting like a crazy man and saying stupid shit is literally all Stephano has done besides slaying mad nerds. No one was bothered by it because he wasn't on EG. Now he is. And you're all butt hurt. Why do people panic about these things?
Joking about raping a 14 year old in unacceptable no matter who you are.
This is moot and wrong. Stephano didn't joke about raping a 14 year old. Besides that, you just said joking was unacceptable without providing any evidence of that claim. That seems like an over the top response to humor.
lol what are you looking for exactly? A quote from the bible saying "tho shalt not make them rapejokes (unless theyre funny)"?
If someone comes to me with the attitude of telling people not to do something for no reason, my advice is their approach is wrong and they should just ignore things they don't like.
How about "It's wrong for public figures with great exposure to joke about raping 14 year olds is wrong because they promote the idea that raping children is a light-hearted and acceptable topic. Almost as if they are encouraging the behavior..."
That's just one argument for example's sake.
Jokes are light-hearted? No kidding, the point is to get your jollies.
People joke about murder, that doesn't mean they're encouraging people to be the next Ted Kaczynski. I assume this is why you said "almost as if they are encouraging the behavior," because you know you can't establish a real causal connection. Normal people can draw a line between reality and fantasy. This is why we are playing video games to begin with. And those who don't get it can always just turn the TV off before they get upset.
Also, as I said before, since Stephano is French and he was probably fumbling for the right word, and "abuser" means "to rape" in this context, it's very likely that he was indeed joking a raping a 14 year old.
Alternatively, since he was making a joke, he picked the quirkiest word because "abused" specifically leaves the audience to fill in the blanks.
Sam I have killed a man yesterday
Suppose he said this, should we wait for the appropriate subreddit that thinks all young men are murderers to email Intel and threaten the real flow of money into this scene?
On October 16 2012 08:04 redviper wrote:
On October 16 2012 07:15 dAPhREAk wrote:
On October 16 2012 07:10 Vod.kaholic wrote:
On October 16 2012 07:03 dAPhREAk wrote: wtf.... how did this turn into a stephano raped a 14 year old thread (jokingly).
Because "abuser" in French in that context ("abusing" a 14yo) means to rape. Granted Stephano doesn't have the best grasp of the English language, so he may have been trying to express something else, but this looks to be the most compelling interpretation.
Even if he meant the English meaning of "abuse," abusing a 14yo is also reprehensible, whether the nature of it was sexual or not.
pathetic. he was joking about having consensual sex with a 14 year old iirc. using the term rape implies lack of consent. its two different things. plus, the age of consent in france is apparently 15, so its a big "who fucking cares" moment for everyone. if i had consensual sex with a 17 year old in the U.S. and joked about it, it would be less than intelligent of me to joke about it, but would also be a huge who fucking cares moment.
if you want to be correct, say "statutory rape" so that all of us will know and can proceed with not caring.
edit: he said abused, not just sex. but i maintain my who fucking cares attitude.
14 is less than 15. Under the age of consent is rape, whether she signs an affidavit stating consent.
Also, please don't joke about raping a child in the US either. 17 is less than 18, and it is a crime that is more often than not prosecuted. If you make the statement publicly and in order to gain publicity, it increases the likelihood of getting prosecuted. It won't be a who fucking cares moment, because you would have raped a child. (assuming its one of those states with the aoc at 18, but you get the point).
Statutory rape is different than and is treated differently than rape. The age of consent in France is 15, in other jurisdictions in Europe, it's lower. What's the difference if it's a joke? You can only joke about having sex down to a 15 year old if you're a French citizen? Suppose you're on holiday in Spain, can you joke about having sex with 13 year olds yet? A joke about a girl who doesn't even exist?
Sexual crimes are much more heinous and frowned upon than murder. Imagine someone saying "I just want to kill my professor!" compared to "I just want to rape my professor!". Two completely different things and one of them you'd never hear. You have to look at social context, and unless you live under a rock you could understand the difference. Not sure about how it is in Europe, but any sort of "joke" regarding sexual abuse of minors in a public setting is highly off limits in the US.
can you not see how fucked that is? murder is fine? but sexual crimes arent?
and I refuse to believe that anyone hear really gets that upset about a rape joke? can anyone here who find a rape joke really offensive say that you've never heard a friend tell or even told something like a dead baby joke or similar?? offensive jokes are their own joke category, relying on shock value. several comedians rely solely on shock jokes. hell one of the top comment in pretty much every "favourite joke" thread, is nearly always "9 out of 10 people enjoy gang rape"
On October 16 2012 06:54 waitwhat wrote: That apology is full of crap. It isn't even written by him. He doesn't speak English that well nor does that statement have any grammatical errors. If it were a real apology, the management wouldn't have written it for him. Also, you have to be pretty fucked up in the head to joke about raping under-aged girls.
To Stephano: You knew you were at the top and represented the world of E-Sports. As soon as you come into money you start acting like a crazy man and say stupid shit that completely ruins OUR image.. not just yours. This is a huge setback for EG and E-Sports as a whole. Since EG will definitely keep you, I hope they get you some professional help.
You're not familiar with Stephano, are you?
Acting like a crazy man and saying stupid shit is literally all Stephano has done besides slaying mad nerds. No one was bothered by it because he wasn't on EG. Now he is. And you're all butt hurt. Why do people panic about these things?
Joking about raping a 14 year old in unacceptable no matter who you are.
This is moot and wrong. Stephano didn't joke about raping a 14 year old. Besides that, you just said joking was unacceptable without providing any evidence of that claim. That seems like an over the top response to humor.
lol what are you looking for exactly? A quote from the bible saying "tho shalt not make them rapejokes (unless theyre funny)"?
If someone comes to me with the attitude of telling people not to do something for no reason, my advice is their approach is wrong and they should just ignore things they don't like.
How about "It's wrong for public figures with great exposure to joke about raping 14 year olds is wrong because they promote the idea that raping children is a light-hearted and acceptable topic. Almost as if they are encouraging the behavior..."
That's just one argument for example's sake.
Jokes are light-hearted? No kidding, the point is to get your jollies.
People joke about murder, that doesn't mean they're encouraging people to be the next Ted Kaczynski. I assume this is why you said "almost as if they are encouraging the behavior," because you know you can't establish a real causal connection. Normal people can draw a line between reality and fantasy. This is why we are playing video games to begin with. And those who don't get it can always just turn the TV off before they get upset.
Also, as I said before, since Stephano is French and he was probably fumbling for the right word, and "abuser" means "to rape" in this context, it's very likely that he was indeed joking a raping a 14 year old.
Alternatively, since he was making a joke, he picked the quirkiest word because "abused" specifically leaves the audience to fill in the blanks.
Sam I have killed a man yesterday
Suppose he said this, should we wait for the appropriate subreddit that thinks all young men are murderers to email Intel and threaten the real flow of money into this scene?
On October 16 2012 08:04 redviper wrote:
On October 16 2012 07:15 dAPhREAk wrote:
On October 16 2012 07:10 Vod.kaholic wrote:
On October 16 2012 07:03 dAPhREAk wrote: wtf.... how did this turn into a stephano raped a 14 year old thread (jokingly).
Because "abuser" in French in that context ("abusing" a 14yo) means to rape. Granted Stephano doesn't have the best grasp of the English language, so he may have been trying to express something else, but this looks to be the most compelling interpretation.
Even if he meant the English meaning of "abuse," abusing a 14yo is also reprehensible, whether the nature of it was sexual or not.
pathetic. he was joking about having consensual sex with a 14 year old iirc. using the term rape implies lack of consent. its two different things. plus, the age of consent in france is apparently 15, so its a big "who fucking cares" moment for everyone. if i had consensual sex with a 17 year old in the U.S. and joked about it, it would be less than intelligent of me to joke about it, but would also be a huge who fucking cares moment.
if you want to be correct, say "statutory rape" so that all of us will know and can proceed with not caring.
edit: he said abused, not just sex. but i maintain my who fucking cares attitude.
14 is less than 15. Under the age of consent is rape, whether she signs an affidavit stating consent.
Also, please don't joke about raping a child in the US either. 17 is less than 18, and it is a crime that is more often than not prosecuted. If you make the statement publicly and in order to gain publicity, it increases the likelihood of getting prosecuted. It won't be a who fucking cares moment, because you would have raped a child. (assuming its one of those states with the aoc at 18, but you get the point).
Statutory rape is different than and is treated differently than rape. The age of consent in France is 15, in other jurisdictions in Europe, it's lower. What's the difference if it's a joke? You can only joke about having sex down to a 15 year old if you're a French citizen? Suppose you're on holiday in Spain, can you joke about having sex with 13 year olds yet? A joke about a girl who doesn't even exist?
Sexual crimes are much more heinous and frowned upon than murder. Imagine someone saying "I just want to kill my professor!" compared to "I just want to rape my professor!". Two completely different things and one of them you'd never hear. You have to look at social context, and unless you live under a rock you could understand the difference. Not sure about how it is in Europe, but any sort of "joke" regarding sexual abuse of minors in a public setting is highly off limits in the US.
You're not saying anything besides parroting some social status quo. It's off-limits because it is!
If joking about something encourages it, jokes about killing people ought to be worse because murdering someone is worse than raping someone. "Sexual crimes" are not categorically more heinous than murder. Flashing someone is illegal, but they're still alive afterwards. Even if Stephano's joke happened to be about rape (which was never mentioned), it would still have been a joke, not a case of rape.
When people use the excuse that "you can't separate jokes from real behavior so you can't make jokes" to criticize people for making jokes, they're really just identifying themselves as the people who don't know the difference between words and actions.
Stephano wasn't speaking publicly in the US, he was talking to a friend on battle.net that was streamed to people watching a guy play video games on the internet. It's not out of place considering all the people who make content with "mature language" in this industry. Nobody would have noticed had SRS not gone to sponsors, and if they had noticed, they would have just ignored Stephano if they didn't like him.
On October 16 2012 07:11 Incomplet wrote: Already obvious to many, but I will list this FAQ for the dummies.
Did Stephano really rape a 14 year old? No, the only plausible scenario if this really did happen is if the girl lied her age.
Was this a bad joke? Yes
Does the fact that this was a private conversation an excuse? No. Players like Stephano are always in the spot light, and always must be aware of what they say. There have been plenty of other cases, some of which include Stephano which already highlight how important this is.
Is Stephano's age a factor? Yes. Under 21 is very young and it is a time to learn from your mistakes. Most of the people who do not see the inappropriateness of his actions will more than likely also fall into this same age category.
Did Stephano write the letter of apology? Unlikely, and if it was, it was "fluffed up" by an EG PR representative.
Will Stephano participate in GSL Code S Season 5 2012? Unlikely. He will use this grace period to train in Korea and come back for the November tournaments.
Is he running away from Code S? Yes. As long as he keeps avoiding Code S, he will always have a horde of fan boys who do not follow the Korean scene. This is a cunning act of self-marketing.
Is Stephano bashed because he's not canadian, American or korean? Yes. Obviously.
Is your French patriotism blocking your judgement? Most certainly.
I said same kind of things for Naniwa's probe rush. I'm speaking about double standards.
The Naniwa incident was with Quantic, this is with EG....
Did I bash EG?
wtf are u talking about?
Same question. I spoke about Naniwa's probe rush and all the hate you did shit on him. Nothing about EG. It's not about EG, nor Stephano. It's about stupid guys like Stephano or Naniwa who are not treated in the same way than any korean, Idra, Dimaga, Destiny, Thorzain and so many more.
Destiny got a whole heap of shit from the community with the whole nude picture thing. Koreans have never done such outlandish things. Idra I can kind of agree on. However Idra has been with EG for so long that he gets away with these things, even though I personally dont agree on it. This is just the way of the real world. In every work place there are always the people who have been there awhile, and suck their bosses dick and get away with pretty much anything. Then there are the people who aren't in their bosses' good books but get in a whole heap of shit for doing similar things. This is just the way the world is.
2 koreans didn't forfeit wcs korea qualifier because there was easy money to get in Dreamhack spring (or maybe winter)? I know, it was just a 4 pages thread, you might not took attention about it. Nobody did.
That's my point. When Stephano says or does some shit : Community new on TL, 138 pages When 2 koreans forfeit wcs korea for easy money : Community new on TL, 4 pages
This thread is just a player bashing thread. Nothing else. I heard player bashing is punished by a 2 day ban, it seems that rules changed.
Are you honestly comparing forfeiting a tournament to someone saying he abused a 14year old? You people comparisons are getting farther then farther.
On October 16 2012 08:01 Killscreen wrote: Self validating external sense? What are you smoking? ( pm me )
What we are looking for is a logical reason for why Stefano was wrong. What was ethically wrong about what he did, and what would be the consequences if it went unpunished?
lol.
well, what I was arguing from there would be the meta-ethical view that there are no actual moral facts about the world. Ontological nihilism is the term used to describe such a view. Then we have various theories on semantics... The one I often favour is called emotivism and its basically the idea that valuestatements (such as in morality) do not express propositions but rather attitudes of the speaker, that is emotional attitudes. I do not think that this always is the case as I do believe we often speak and think about morality as if our moral judgements are actual facts about the world (which of course they are not, there are no moral facts just as there are no aesthetic objective facts), and this jumping back and forth between meaning different things yet using the same words certainly adds to the confusion.
Logical reason? Im not sure what you mean by logic here. What was ethically wrong? Well I suppose I could argue many things if I wanted to, but lets just settle with that by making such jokes youre trivializing a very serious issue, and that certainly is not a good thing. The consequences if it went unpunished? well thats pretty obvious isnt it? He would be none the wiser, and would probably rapejoke all his way to the bank ^^
Philosophical ethics discussions aside, lets remember that this is about what was said, not done, which makes it a lot simpler. For me to say it was wrong it would have had to caused a harm to other people, and he had to have known that when he said it. The guy who posted the mohammed video a month back was wrong for instance.
first you cant compare a comedian to stephano since there are two separate languagegames going on there. Second Ricky Gervais is not saying anything that is at all analogous to saying you (sexually) abused a 14-year old the other day (ha ha ha, end of joke), so that has no bearing here either way (though I assume you could perhaps find some comedian making personal rapejokes somewhere). Third Ricky Gervais is actually funny, I wonder if anyone in here whos over 20 actually thought stephano said something funny. The actual pics of bling with his reaction when he realized he was streaming is quite hilarious however.
What makes you so sure it didnt cause any harm? Im also not so sure that simply because something causes harm it is immoral either. Killing Hitler caused him a great deal of harm I suppose.
On October 16 2012 08:01 Killscreen wrote: Self validating external sense? What are you smoking? ( pm me )
What we are looking for is a logical reason for why Stefano was wrong. What was ethically wrong about what he did, and what would be the consequences if it went unpunished?
lol.
well, what I was arguing from there would be the meta-ethical view that there are no actual moral facts about the world. Ontological nihilism is the term used to describe such a view. Then we have various theories on semantics... The one I often favour is called emotivism and its basically the idea that valuestatements (such as in morality) do not express propositions but rather attitudes of the speaker, that is emotional attitudes. I do not think that this always is the case as I do believe we often speak and think about morality as if our moral judgements are actual facts about the world (which of course they are not, there are no moral facts just as there are no aesthetic objective facts), and this jumping back and forth between meaning different things yet using the same words certainly adds to the confusion.
Logical reason? Im not sure what you mean by logic here. What was ethically wrong? Well I suppose I could argue many things if I wanted to, but lets just settle with that by making such jokes youre trivializing a very serious issue, and that certainly is not a good thing. The consequences if it went unpunished? well thats pretty obvious isnt it? He would be none the wiser, and would probably rapejoke all his way to the bank ^^
Philosophical ethics discussions aside, lets remember that this is about what was said, not done, which makes it a lot simpler. For me to say it was wrong it would have had to caused a harm to other people, and he had to have known that when he said it. The guy who posted the mohammed video a month back was wrong for instance.
first you cant compare a comedian to stephano since there are two separate languagegames going on there. Second Ricky Gervais is not saying anything that is at all analogous to saying you (sexually) abused a 14-year old the other day (ha ha ha, end of joke), so that has no bearing here either way (though I assume you could perhaps find some comedian making personal rapejokes somewhere). Third Ricky Gervais is actually funny, I wonder if anyone in here whos over 20 actually thought stephano said something funny. The actual pics of bling with his reaction when he realized he was streaming is quite hilarious however.
What makes you so sure it didnt cause any harm? Im also not so sure that simply because something causes harm it is immoral either. Killing Hitler caused him a great deal of harm I suppose.
I agree, there is a huge difference between Ricky Gervais talking on stage in front of a private audience of people who are specifically there to watch him and Stephano saying something on battle.net on a stream in front of a private audience of people who have specifically elected to watch bling's stream.
Oh wait, Ricky Gervais is okay because you think he's "actually funny." So the main point to draw is the whole world should revolve around your specific tastes in culture, which we can then extrapolate to moral considerations.
On October 16 2012 07:11 Incomplet wrote: Already obvious to many, but I will list this FAQ for the dummies.
Did Stephano really rape a 14 year old? No, the only plausible scenario if this really did happen is if the girl lied her age.
Was this a bad joke? Yes
Does the fact that this was a private conversation an excuse? No. Players like Stephano are always in the spot light, and always must be aware of what they say. There have been plenty of other cases, some of which include Stephano which already highlight how important this is.
Is Stephano's age a factor? Yes. Under 21 is very young and it is a time to learn from your mistakes. Most of the people who do not see the inappropriateness of his actions will more than likely also fall into this same age category.
Did Stephano write the letter of apology? Unlikely, and if it was, it was "fluffed up" by an EG PR representative.
Will Stephano participate in GSL Code S Season 5 2012? Unlikely. He will use this grace period to train in Korea and come back for the November tournaments.
Is he running away from Code S? Yes. As long as he keeps avoiding Code S, he will always have a horde of fan boys who do not follow the Korean scene. This is a cunning act of self-marketing.
Is Stephano bashed because he's not canadian, American or korean? Yes. Obviously.
Wow you're pretty stupid. You apparently haven't seen the shitstorm EG gets on a daily basis for being money grubbers. GUESS WHAT? EG has American, Canadian, and Korean players! What a coincidence? Go take your French bias somewhere else.
EG is in fact most respectfull than a part of the community. EG doesn't make any difference from the place you come from, the race you play, your religion, or the color of your skin. And they do much for Esport.
I'm not blaming them, i'm blaming the double standard of TL and of a (small) part of the community.
Do you have any evidence of this double standard? I didn't know TL bashed anyone. And I don't think the people of TL would bash people based on nationality.
On October 16 2012 08:01 Killscreen wrote: Self validating external sense? What are you smoking? ( pm me )
What we are looking for is a logical reason for why Stefano was wrong. What was ethically wrong about what he did, and what would be the consequences if it went unpunished?
lol.
well, what I was arguing from there would be the meta-ethical view that there are no actual moral facts about the world. Ontological nihilism is the term used to describe such a view. Then we have various theories on semantics... The one I often favour is called emotivism and its basically the idea that valuestatements (such as in morality) do not express propositions but rather attitudes of the speaker, that is emotional attitudes. I do not think that this always is the case as I do believe we often speak and think about morality as if our moral judgements are actual facts about the world (which of course they are not, there are no moral facts just as there are no aesthetic objective facts), and this jumping back and forth between meaning different things yet using the same words certainly adds to the confusion.
Logical reason? Im not sure what you mean by logic here. What was ethically wrong? Well I suppose I could argue many things if I wanted to, but lets just settle with that by making such jokes youre trivializing a very serious issue, and that certainly is not a good thing. The consequences if it went unpunished? well thats pretty obvious isnt it? He would be none the wiser, and would probably rapejoke all his way to the bank ^^
Philosophical ethics discussions aside, lets remember that this is about what was said, not done, which makes it a lot simpler. For me to say it was wrong it would have had to caused a harm to other people, and he had to have known that when he said it. The guy who posted the mohammed video a month back was wrong for instance.
first you cant compare a comedian to stephano since there are two separate languagegames going on there. Second Ricky Gervais is not saying anything that is at all analogous to saying you (sexually) abused a 14-year old the other day (ha ha ha, end of joke), so that has no bearing here either way (though I assume you could perhaps find some comedian making personal rapejokes somewhere). Third Ricky Gervais is actually funny, I wonder if anyone in here whos over 20 actually thought stephano said something funny. The actual pics of bling with his reaction when he realized he was streaming is quite hilarious however.
What makes you so sure it didnt cause any harm? Im also not so sure that simply because something causes harm it is immoral either. Killing Hitler caused him a great deal of harm I suppose.
So rape jokes are ok if and only if 1. The victim is older than 18. 2. The joke is funny 3. The person telling the joke is not the rapist in the joke.
Seems pretty arbitrary to me. Stefano went 0/3. No wonder you guys are calling for blood. Also, "languagegames"?
On October 16 2012 08:01 Killscreen wrote: Self validating external sense? What are you smoking? ( pm me )
What we are looking for is a logical reason for why Stefano was wrong. What was ethically wrong about what he did, and what would be the consequences if it went unpunished?
lol.
well, what I was arguing from there would be the meta-ethical view that there are no actual moral facts about the world. Ontological nihilism is the term used to describe such a view. Then we have various theories on semantics... The one I often favour is called emotivism and its basically the idea that valuestatements (such as in morality) do not express propositions but rather attitudes of the speaker, that is emotional attitudes. I do not think that this always is the case as I do believe we often speak and think about morality as if our moral judgements are actual facts about the world (which of course they are not, there are no moral facts just as there are no aesthetic objective facts), and this jumping back and forth between meaning different things yet using the same words certainly adds to the confusion.
Logical reason? Im not sure what you mean by logic here. What was ethically wrong? Well I suppose I could argue many things if I wanted to, but lets just settle with that by making such jokes youre trivializing a very serious issue, and that certainly is not a good thing. The consequences if it went unpunished? well thats pretty obvious isnt it? He would be none the wiser, and would probably rapejoke all his way to the bank ^^
Philosophical ethics discussions aside, lets remember that this is about what was said, not done, which makes it a lot simpler. For me to say it was wrong it would have had to caused a harm to other people, and he had to have known that when he said it. The guy who posted the mohammed video a month back was wrong for instance.
first you cant compare a comedian to stephano since there are two separate languagegames going on there. Second Ricky Gervais is not saying anything that is at all analogous to saying you (sexually) abused a 14-year old the other day (ha ha ha, end of joke), so that has no bearing here either way (though I assume you could perhaps find some comedian making personal rapejokes somewhere). Third Ricky Gervais is actually funny, I wonder if anyone in here whos over 20 actually thought stephano said something funny. The actual pics of bling with his reaction when he realized he was streaming is quite hilarious however.
What makes you so sure it didnt cause any harm? Im also not so sure that simply because something causes harm it is immoral either. Killing Hitler caused him a great deal of harm I suppose.
I agree, there is a huge difference between Ricky Gervais talking on stage in front of a private audience of people who are specifically there to watch him and Stephano saying something on battle.net on a stream in front of a private audience of people who have specifically elected to watch bling's stream.
Oh wait, Ricky Gervais is okay because you think he's "actually funny." So the main point to draw is the whole world should revolve around your specific tastes in culture, which we can then extrapolate to moral considerations.
yeah thats called attacking a strawman. please... surely you have more intellectual honesty than that. Ricky Gervais has simply nothing to do with Stephano because hes not making any joke that is analogous to what stephano said. Just because two things fall under the same category doesnt mean theyre analogous to one another. I can make jokes relating to the holocaust without joking about jews for example.
I dont know about you, but personally a joke being funny is a prerequisite for me liking it, otherwise there is no point now is there.
On October 16 2012 07:11 Incomplet wrote: Already obvious to many, but I will list this FAQ for the dummies.
Did Stephano really rape a 14 year old? No, the only plausible scenario if this really did happen is if the girl lied her age.
Was this a bad joke? Yes
Does the fact that this was a private conversation an excuse? No. Players like Stephano are always in the spot light, and always must be aware of what they say. There have been plenty of other cases, some of which include Stephano which already highlight how important this is.
Is Stephano's age a factor? Yes. Under 21 is very young and it is a time to learn from your mistakes. Most of the people who do not see the inappropriateness of his actions will more than likely also fall into this same age category.
Did Stephano write the letter of apology? Unlikely, and if it was, it was "fluffed up" by an EG PR representative.
Will Stephano participate in GSL Code S Season 5 2012? Unlikely. He will use this grace period to train in Korea and come back for the November tournaments.
Is he running away from Code S? Yes. As long as he keeps avoiding Code S, he will always have a horde of fan boys who do not follow the Korean scene. This is a cunning act of self-marketing.
Is Stephano bashed because he's not canadian, American or korean? Yes. Obviously.
I was going to write a list of all the non American Canadian or Korean tl staff members respected community members, and pro gamers who would tell you this is bull shit, but i got bored of it 50 names in. This is the single stupidest argument i have ever seen aimed at team liquid the community or forum, and I have seen a huge number of them. Stephano is being bashed because he either is a statutory rapist or made a truly terrible joke. Either way that has nothing to do with his nationality, but rather with his horrible sense of humor or his criminal actions.
I included both possible actions so as to not start that argument again.
EPT![[image loading]](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-LHDxqigCco4/TpeLXt1w0GI/AAAAAAAADf8/4_aWa4D_QEE/s1600/fry.jpg)
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