Ground Vikings - Page 10

Phoenix2003

126 Posts

September 24 2012 17:41 GMT

#181

^Yes, stalkers can blink away and regenerate their shields, but what's stopping terran from repairing their vikings?
And what's scarier is that shields don't regen in combat while T can repair in combat.

Lizarb

Denmark307 Posts

September 24 2012 18:29 GMT

#182

This idea is quite interesting. Blizzard should test this in the beta.

Acritter

Syria7637 Posts

September 24 2012 20:53 GMT

#183

Perhaps the Archon issue could be handled with the Thor cannons? Then you'd need Ghost support to deal with the High Templar, of course...

I guess it always comes down to Ghostmech.

rshswe

Sweden40 Posts

September 24 2012 21:47 GMT

#184

What good does a ground Viking do in TvZ o.O ?
But I like the whole "Medivacs are existing, so go ground vikings" thingy

we'll just c

Kharnage

Australia920 Posts

September 24 2012 22:29 GMT

#185

On September 24 2012 21:27 one-one-one wrote:

Show nested quote +

On September 24 2012 21:09 Dephy wrote:

On September 24 2012 20:47 Kharnage wrote:

On September 24 2012 20:02 Dephy wrote:

On September 24 2012 18:30 one-one-one wrote:

On September 24 2012 18:19 Kharnage wrote:

On September 24 2012 16:11 one-one-one wrote:

On September 24 2012 16:02 Kharnage wrote:

On September 24 2012 14:45 one-one-one wrote:

On September 24 2012 14:32 Xapti wrote:
Vikings can attack ground — isn't that good enough? look at zerg — corruptor can't attack ground in any way; at least the phoenix has graviton beam.

Making ground mode vikings stronger offers a real problem where you'll have one unit that can counter anything, be it air units or ground units. vikings are the main anti-air unit for terran, so if they then are also good against ground it'd be pretty bland or even imbalanced.

Yes, but you and several others come to this thread with this standpoint without understanding of the core problem.

We are not necessarily talking about a big general buff vs ground units making mass viking strats possible. Just some tweaking so that they would fit a natural role in a terran mech composition.

Hellions deal with light units.
Tanks deal with armored and low-hp units.

What is left is units like archons and immortals and ultras. If ground vikings were buffed a bit they could actually be good
vs these units. Low damage and high rate of fire is perfect vs immortal shields and as long as protoss dont have shield upgrades they wont need any upgrades to do full damage to archons.
Maybe not ultras so much, but it would make zerg tech switches less lethal if they could be used to buffer in front of your tanks and thors in case of a BL -> Ultra tech switch.

Together with its anti-air it would be a good unit to have in a mech composition.

It also makes sense logically. There are obvious similarities with the goliath. The viking is the very same unit, except that it needs to lift of in order to hit air and land to hit ground units.

Umm, aren't thors good at doing lots of damage to single units? I thought that was their 'thang'.

Ahh, I think I see what you're after here.
It's a double pronged super buff!

you want and all in one to counter BL and ultra.
then you ALSO want an all in 1 counter for colossus and archons and immortals.

Good unit there.

Sorry, you need to actually build other units. I know, it's crazy, but there you go. Against protoss if you get 3 bases get ghosts. Stop arguing, stop looking for a way out of it, you MUST get ghosts. They counter immortals, HT, sentry, archon and also can do a lot of damage.
Get fricken ghosts.

Not gonna say what you should be doing in TvZ since i don't know, i play protoss. But it's pretty bloody obvious that if vikings were good vs ultra and BL then the game would be take 3 bases and start massing vikings. Done!

Yes, thors are good vs archons and immortals. But if you have archons you most likely have high templars which negate the thor's 250 mm strike cannon while also taking away a big chunk of their hp. Suddenly they are not so good anymore ....

Ghosts are very good with mech, but it is hard to get the number of ghosts that would be necessary until very late in the game. You need a lot of things other than ghosts. If protoss open with colossus you need to have the vikings.

I wont address your other points as you clearly were twisting my words.

How is it twisting your words when your exact words are What is left is units like archons and immortals and ultras. If ground vikings were buffed a bit they could actually be good vs these units. ?
It's the logical conclusion and outcome if vikings are good vs those units.

Yes, it's hard to get the 'right number' of ghosts till the late game. Just like it's hard for protoss to get HT with storm, archons, immortals, colossus, charge and blink with their respective upgrades.
It's also hard to get a high infestor count, lots of corruptors, spines and broods as well as all melee upgrades and ultra-armour + the bank + larvae so that zerg can do those big tech switches.

It's not meant to be easy to counter everything.

There is a difference between a unit that is good vs another unit and a unit that hardcounters a unit.

I didn't say that vikings on the ground should hardcounter immortals, archons and ultras. I merely said that it would be good if they could fill the roll of a decent damage unit with low damage but high rate of fire so that mech has a unit that doesn't suck balls vs immortals.

Neither did I mean that it should counter ultras. It would just be good if it could do a slightly better job of buffering in front of tanks in case of a quick BL -> ultra switch.

So what is the logical conclusion I should draw from your posts ?

i think ppl are overestimating of how good vikings was. Infact even with 14ground damage instead of 12, they where total shit. In tvt we used to see like 5tanks and 30viking rainbow fights, it was like that not because vikings were good, it was because players were bad, you can put 20damage viking, and they would still get raped by bio ball/toss/zerg army, though they would actually be a threat on the ground, right now viking threat on the ground is about the same as sentry without energy.

If they dont want to change viking damage/armor values, they should change it switch animation, movespeed on the ground to be alot faster, so that fast viking raids would actually be a threat.
I remember when D.B first introduced them, he showed a clip of how land in base and harras it and shit. How often you see that in real games? never, because sending vikings to harras is suicide for them, because they are slow as shit, takes 200hours to switch form and then have movespeed of 2.25, what can you actually kill with them?
You only send them to suicide mission when they are totaly useles(aka no air units), so can maybe kill with them something, srsly 150-75 unit that is useless, basic marine has dps of viking on the ground and marine cost 4x less, have better movespeed and so on.
Even if they would buff vikings hardcore you would never see them on mass, since they are so bad on land that normal units like bio balls or tank/thor army are 3-4times better atm.

So my suggestion is actually buff they movespeed on the ground + transformation speed, this would make kinda ok harras unit for mech armies, which doesnt have marine/marauders balls, to take out bases(helions can only kill workers.)
To make it fair, maybe give it an upgrade for this improvement in Fussion core.

You've hit the nail on the head and at the same time are completely wrong.

You are totally correct that if anything a 'buff' to vikings should be to their taking off and landing speed. They are too slow to be used as a harassing unit or even an emergency buffer unit. This makes any landing suicidal plus if the harassed player is paying attention at all the workers will just run before the vikings even get a shot off. I would buff their landing time so they 'crunch' into the ground and keep their taking off speed to same so it's a risky move, but one that might actually bag you some workers or slow down a bunch of ultras for a sec.

Where you are wrong. Viking ground dps is 12 (+1) with range 6. That makes them TWICE as powerful in pure dps as a stalker.
On top of that Vikings are the cheapest air unit for GAS in the game and are fantastic at their primary role of AA, especially with thor or marine support.
Their ground speed is the same as an immortal, they are mostly terrible because they get in each others way. It's not like they are 'Queen-off-creep' slow.

its not only about dps, stalkers have blink and good ms can shoot air and dont need to switch to air mode to do that, not only that you can insta reinforce them with pylon from wg(this act this makes them abit weaker, than they should have been for balance reasons), they also have more hp and do extra damage to heavy, we have seen mass stalkers armies with blink, do great even vs mmm armies.

Yeah, I agree with you.

Also, with the "That makes them TWICE as powerful" part you are the one who is wrong. Stalkers do 10 damage with a +4 bonus to armored with a cooldown of 1.44s. Vikings do 12 damage with 1s cooldown.

Stalker dps vs armored is 14/1.44 = 9.7222...
Stalker dps vs armored is 10/1.44 = 6.9444...
Viking dps is trivially = 12.

12/9.7222... = 1.2343...
12/6.9444... = 1.7280...

So vikings are 23% stronger vs armored and 73% stronger vs non-armored units assuming no upgrades.

Your argumentation is immature, narrow minded and lacks nuance because you take things out of their context and twist and bend facts to fit your theories. You also spread false information and refer to it as facts.

We get that your standpoint is that no terran units should ever be considered for a buff.
But what are you doing in this thread where we try to come up with constructive ways to slightly modify a terran unit so that it could to some extent function a bit like how the warhound was supposed to ?

A slightly buffed viking will not be nearly as bad as the Warhound was.

I wasn't comparing stalkers to vikings, i was comparing stalker dps to viking dps in response to right now viking threat on the ground is about the same as sentry without energy. when in fact they have higher dps than a stalker. Obviously a stalker is better than a landed viking, especially with blink.

What part of You are totally correct that if anything a 'buff' to vikings should be to their taking off and landing speed relates to We get that your standpoint is that no terran units should ever be considered for a buff.? Half my reply was saying that viking landing speed should be buffed to see how that changes the feel of the unit as a harassing option or an emergency deployment unit.

That's a buff. Right there, BUFF.

However you need to keep in mind that a big part of the mind games going on in PvT is to try and trick the terran into making too many vikings!

You fake out massing colossus while instead getting HT / storm.
If Vikings are 'good' on the ground then what happens is the terran builds 12 vikings regardless. That way it doesn't matter how many colossus they have, even if it's 1 you pick it off in 1 volley, land and start tearing apart the gateway army. That's not an interesting game where both sides trying to find an edge, that's terran getting to build exactly the same army regardless what their opponent does.

EliteSK

Korea (South)251 Posts

September 24 2012 22:43 GMT

#186

On September 23 2012 01:47 Fig wrote:
This is not a good idea. The viking is already the best air superiority unit in the game. It takes out anything armored with ease, as well as anything that is massive, since those air units are all armored too. And it does this from 9 range, at a low unit cost. As a protoss, I would kill for this unit even if it didn't even have a ground mode.

Now you want to buff the ground damage, so that is deals damage pretty well to everything. Vikings already do this, though it may not seem like it, because people hardly ever use them on the ground (since it's air uses are so amazing). It has 12 ground DPS against everything already, which is a bit less than twice that of a stalker (6.9).

The viking is certainly not a unit that needs any more help. Instead you should be focusing on other units that are actually underused.

Are you saying this on the basis because you lose your colossus to vikings "as a protoss"...?

Vikings have no use after taking out colossus in a TvP. If you land 'em, they usually die in the process of landing or they die so fast on the ground. After the ground vikings die, toss can just spam out colo again because the vikings just get scrapped when they transform. Then again, I have some terran bias too.

I just feel like the transform function is more gimmicky than anything right now. Some kind of change feels needed; dunno if this change is the best...

Fairwell

Austria195 Posts

September 24 2012 22:53 GMT

#187

Vikings are the best air-to-air unit from all three races together and as a bonus they can also land and switch to ground mode. Same thing goes for upgrades, everyone just tries to look at those spots were he thinks "his" race is at a disadvantage, ever thought about that zergs need to get melee + ranged attacks and protoss all the shield upgrades as well to keep on equal upgrade footing on the ground?

If the viking was a widely unused unit or terrans would struggle a lot with some kind of unit composition/build where vikings seem to be the answer while not breaking anything else in the game, then these threads would actualy make sense.

On September 23 2012 02:26 avilo wrote:
This would be a good idea. Vikings on the ground suck right now. I think they originally changed viking armor because...of a terrible map pool and trying to balance the game too quickly.

Ever since then vikings on the ground have been bad.

Tanks were nerfed mostly because of the map pool in the early stages of SC2 but not vikings, they simply should not be cost efficient on the ground compared to normal ground units. I'd like to know what you would say about corruptors if your main race was zerg. :-)

sona

Canada52 Posts

September 24 2012 23:11 GMT

#188

Making viking a LIGHT-type unit is a viable solution:
- they can compliment mech - in the air for AA and on the ground for mobile fighting (still somewhat sluggish)
- it won't effect air-to-air that much - BC/corrupter/mutalisk would deal the same damage to it but phoenix will be stronger but that is ok since Vikings have a much better range. in tvt viking vs viking fights will take a longer duration.
-if your concerned that ground vikings after this upgrade will plow through everything, just TUNE the ground attack range

As of right now, ground vikings have been nothing but a gimmik ability like the thor.
In conclusion blizzard, please experiment will different ideas!
P.S. Someone should try this out in unit tester - making viking light and test it against every other unit.

EliteSK

Korea (South)251 Posts

September 24 2012 23:25 GMT

#189

On September 25 2012 08:11 sona wrote:
Making viking a LIGHT-type unit is a viable solution:
- they can compliment mech - in the air for AA and on the ground for mobile fighting (still somewhat sluggish)
- it won't effect air-to-air that much - BC/corrupter/mutalisk would deal the same damage to it but phoenix will be stronger but that is ok since Vikings have a much better range. in tvt viking vs viking fights will take a longer duration.
-if your concerned that ground vikings after this upgrade will plow through everything, just TUNE the ground attack range

As of right now, ground vikings have been nothing but a gimmik ability like the thor.
In conclusion blizzard, please experiment will different ideas!
P.S. Someone should try this out in unit tester - making viking light and test it against every other unit.

you realize phoenixes can shoot while moving right so kiting them is a real pain/not possible...and also have a range upgrade to get 7 range?

sona

Canada52 Posts

September 24 2012 23:53 GMT

#190

[Deleted]

Zergrusher

United States562 Posts

September 25 2012 01:39 GMT

#191

On September 25 2012 08:25 EliteSK wrote:

Show nested quote +

you realize phoenixes can shoot while moving right so kiting them is a real pain/not possible...and also have a range upgrade to get 7 range?

its 6 range after upgrade not 7 range

Crawdad

614 Posts

September 25 2012 01:42 GMT

#192

But if Vikings were a light unit, SkyToss would actually be good, and we can't have that.

ThePianoDentist

United Kingdom698 Posts

September 25 2012 02:07 GMT

#193

I think it would be a great idea, but i feel keeping vikings effected by air upgrades would still be the best idea, not making them too powerful and allowing for interesting mech into mass air switches on many bases.

also making vikings ground mech upgrades would nerf the hell out of skyterran

Zato-1

Chile4253 Posts

September 25 2012 02:41 GMT

#194

On September 25 2012 01:04 Thrasymachus725 wrote:

Show nested quote +

Rofl, yes please do that... Phoenix don't destroy them enough as is. Also, banelings should blast through them AND battlehellions on the ground. Not to mention hellions need to burn through them like butter.

Why do you want the viking to be light? So they can eat Immortal shots? You have the hellbat for that...

Are you implying that Phoenix beat Vikings? Because they don't. They can serve as meatshields for your Colossi vs. a Terran that doesn't target fire properly, but that's about all the use you're gonna get from Phoenix in actual engagements... compared to Vikings which are a staple of TvP and ZvT.

I can understand Terrans wanting to make mech compositions work in TvP again after the Warhound got nuked, but the Viking's Assault Mode isn't a good place to try to fit in more power because the unit is already so strong. Just let the Viking be, it's in a good place right now; compare that to the Void Ray, which instead of being a specialist unit like the Viking, tries to do everything at once but isn't good at anything.

Shikyo

Finland33997 Posts

September 25 2012 03:34 GMT

#195

Vikings on ground are actually fine. Their main problem is that they generally aren't as well-upgraded as the rest of your army. If landed Vikings benefited from mech upgrades I don't think there'd be a problem.

Oh but if I had to think of a buff if this wasn't enough, it'd be to give them 1 armor. It really doesn't make sense they have 0 when they are such beefy-looking units, anyway.

Kharnage

Australia920 Posts

September 25 2012 04:51 GMT

#196

On September 25 2012 10:42 Crawdad wrote:

Show nested quote +

But if Vikings were a light unit, SkyToss would actually be good, and we can't have that.

This would destroy TvT since thors do bonus damage to light.

On a side note, what makes phoenix terrible vs vikings is not a fight over space with pure viking vs pure phoenix. It's that with any sort of support the vikings wreck phoenix due tot he fact that the phoenix need to come within range of marines / turrets / thors to attack the vikings while the same is not true of the vikings.

In HOTS I would increase the gas cost of vikings to 100 (same as muta and phoenix) supply to 3 and decrease the landing time to pretty much instant and increase the assault mode HP to 160. maybe give 1ar as well.
I feel damage and walking speed are fine.

That should be enough to encourage terran to experiment with assault mode more, make them more durable on the ground and discourage people from overmaking them blindly as a 'catchall counter' to everything.

I don't know how big an issue the supply cost increase would affect the corruptor / viking wars. If need be I'd be happy to see corruptors increased to 3. BL would stay 4 supply.

This might also encourage BCs since currently you can get 3 vikings per BC, where 2 is a much better ratio.

HypertonicHydroponic

437 Posts

September 25 2012 05:01 GMT

#197

This is just me thinking out loud based on some of the other comments in this thread, but what if, instead of tweaking the base unit they simply allow the viking to be upgraded by BOTH ground mech and air upgrades? And I don't mean, ground attack upgraded by ground and air attack by air -- I mean, with a 3/3 mech upgrade and a 3/3 air upgrade you would have a 6/6 viking. It seems like it could be decent on the ground, but might be OP in the air. Although with the tempest and hydra buff, maybe it wouldn't be too bad. Thoughts?

Kharnage

Australia920 Posts

September 25 2012 05:31 GMT

#198

On September 25 2012 14:01 HypertonicHydroponic wrote:
This is just me thinking out loud based on some of the other comments in this thread, but what if, instead of tweaking the base unit they simply allow the viking to be upgraded by BOTH ground mech and air upgrades? And I don't mean, ground attack upgraded by ground and air attack by air -- I mean, with a 3/3 mech upgrade and a 3/3 air upgrade you would have a 6/6 viking. It seems like it could be decent on the ground, but might be OP in the air. Although with the tempest and hydra buff, maybe it wouldn't be too bad. Thoughts?

6 ar would be stupidly imba.

Dephy

Lithuania163 Posts

September 25 2012 05:51 GMT

#199

On September 25 2012 14:31 Kharnage wrote:

Show nested quote +

6 ar would be stupidly imba.

would be kinda epic having this viking though. Maybe zergs wouldnt camp all day long with there imposible to kill army, since 6/6 viking might come and woop your ass. It would also benefit good terran players who have good macro ability and all.
And since every race is differnt it could work, right now zergs/toss players on this thread keeps talking about there units, compared to viking and how viking cant be atleast average on ground because its good in air. Thor is good vs air and good vs heavy ground targets, pheonix is good vs air and good at harrasing. Why cant viking have couple or roles is beyond me, because viking is cool unit, that have interesting mechanic, why simple having more a move bio army is more fun for ppl than having fun unique unit?

If you keep saying he must suck on ground still, why not remove ground mode altogether and make them cheaper? Since its another case of 250mm strike cannon atm (this ability actually nerf's the unit instead of buffing it).

-NegativeZero-

United States2140 Posts

September 25 2012 05:53 GMT

#200

I think an interesting buff to give to ground vikings would be a range increase, maybe to 7. That way in TvP if you kill all the colossi, when you land them they can fight from behind the bio-ball, and if you react quickly enough you can lift them off and retreat them if you see that your bio army is going to die.

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