With all the attention on Tanks and Hellions and Firebattlehellions, you'd think that people would think about one of the other Terran units that has been around for a long time - Ground Vikings.
Ground Vikings are weak. REALLY weak. They weren't always so bad. IIRC at one point in WoL Beta they had 1 Armor and 14 damage and could compete toe-to-toe vs stalkers and hydralisks. Thing is, a usable Ground Viking would actually fill a lot of the holes in HotS Mech.
What do I mean by usable? I think it would be a viable unit with just two changes: - Vikings may use either Mech or Air upgrades, whichever is highest. (this is the big one) - Attack changed from 12 damage to 7x2 damage. This is only a 17% buff against normal units, and not a buff against high-Armor units, but is a 40% buff vs immortal shields.
Why would a usable Ground Viking fit well with Mech play? 1) You'll have a starport anyways, now that medivacs heal your firebattlehellions.
2) Vikings cover the main weakness of mech which is Air.
3) Vikings are amazingly supply-efficient. At 150/75/2 they have a 112.5:1 cost:supply ratio which is higher than anything except spellcasters and Banelings (150:1). HotS mech uses a lot of hellions (50:1) and widow mines (50:1) so you really need a supply-efficient unit to make up the difference.
4) Vikings are surprisingly good against Archons. Throw a ball of ground vikings into a ball of archons in Unit Tester. The viking's fast attack busts through shields while its bulky size and Mechanical nature makes the archon's attack highly ineffective.
With these changes, Ground Vikings would still be fairly weak and not a unit you'd really want to mass, but you could sprinkle a few into that mid-range crescent in between your hellions and tanks. They would do wonders against Archon and Immortal shields, while making you much less nervous about an air switch.
I don't know why the fuck Blizzard hasn't thought about merging armory upgrades yet...Instead of having separate upgrades for ships and vehicles just add a fucking "Machines" upgrade that works for factory and Starport. With mech being way shittier than it was in Broodwar there is no reason to make it have a different upgrade path, not to mention that for some reason ship plating is expensive (starting at 150/150) for no goddamn reason other than it being like that in BW (which blizz insists they don't wanna copy).
I think this change alone would give people an incentive on using the current factory units, you wouldn't even need to buff Vikings maybe.
On September 23 2012 01:03 mannerless wrote: I don't know why the fuck Blizzard hasn't thought about merging armory upgrades yet...Instead of having separate upgrades for ships and vehicles just add a fucking "Machines" upgrade that works for factory and Starport. With mech being way shittier than it was in Broodwar there is no reason to make it have a different upgrade path, not to mention that for some reason ship plating is expensive (starting at 150/150) for no goddamn reason other than it being like that in BW (which blizz insists they don't wanna copy).
I think this change alone would give people an incentive on using the current factory units, you wouldn't even need to buff Vikings maybe.
On September 23 2012 01:03 mannerless wrote: I don't know why the fuck Blizzard hasn't thought about merging armory upgrades yet...Instead of having separate upgrades for ships and vehicles just add a fucking "Machines" upgrade that works for factory and Starport. With mech being way shittier than it was in Broodwar there is no reason to make it have a different upgrade path, not to mention that for some reason ship plating is expensive (starting at 150/150) for no goddamn reason other than it being like that in BW (which blizz insists they don't wanna copy).
I think this change alone would give people an incentive on using the current factory units, you wouldn't even need to buff Vikings maybe.
Nah.
I'm pretty sure all air armor upgrades start at 150/150 because air units are so mobile, if their armor upgrades were cheap you would always upgrade armor first in order to retain as many units as possible (think back to leenock MLG providence muta armor upgrades). Also, if armor upgrades were cheap, people might abuse capital ships (BC's already start with 3 armor... if you could rush to 4 or 5 armor BC's they might be TOO sturdy).
Although... T and P air armies are already rare as it is, maybe a 100/100 armor upgrade might encourage more air play
edit:
Oh and also, to contribute to the original topic of the thread... When they decided not to revamp the Thor or have an AA attack on the Warhound... I was really hoping they would do something to make the Viking more versatile. I think the armor upgrade is a great idea, and the 7x2 damage isn't bad either (although I worry 3/3 Vikings would be sooooo good... 4 armor 10x2 damage?)
I feel like if they modified the viking it would feel like a new unit... which is good!
I posted this before: they should merge some armor upgrades to make air transitions easier for terran. For instance, have mech plating give air armor and have bio weapons give air weapons.
On September 23 2012 01:03 mannerless wrote: I don't know why the fuck Blizzard hasn't thought about merging armory upgrades yet...Instead of having separate upgrades for ships and vehicles just add a fucking "Machines" upgrade that works for factory and Starport. With mech being way shittier than it was in Broodwar there is no reason to make it have a different upgrade path, not to mention that for some reason ship plating is expensive (starting at 150/150) for no goddamn reason other than it being like that in BW (which blizz insists they don't wanna copy).
I think this change alone would give people an incentive on using the current factory units, you wouldn't even need to buff Vikings maybe.
Nah.
I'm pretty sure all air armor upgrades start at 150/150 because air units are so mobile, if their armor upgrades were cheap you would always upgrade armor first in order to retain as many units as possible (think back to leenock MLG providence muta armor upgrades). Also, if armor upgrades were cheap, people might abuse capital ships (BC's already start with 3 armor... if you could rush to 4 or 5 armor BC's they might be TOO sturdy).
Although... T and P air armies are already rare as it is, maybe a 100/100 armor upgrade might encourage more air play
edit:
Oh and also, to contribute to the original topic of the thread... When they decided not to revamp the Thor or have an AA attack on the Warhound... I was really hoping they would do something to make the Viking more versatile. I think the armor upgrade is a great idea, and the 7x2 damage isn't bad either (although I worry 3/3 Vikings would be sooooo good... 4 armor 10x2 damage?)
I feel like if they modified the viking it would feel like a new unit... which is good!
Alright then, keep armor as 150/150 but make it work for mech and air, having ships share upgrades with factory would make it so that Vikings could still keep 0 armor and not be OP @ 3-3. Also don't forget that Vikings have only 125 health, they die pretty quickly.
This is not a good idea. The viking is already the best air superiority unit in the game. It takes out anything armored with ease, as well as anything that is massive, since those air units are all armored too. And it does this from 9 range, at a low unit cost. As a protoss, I would kill for this unit even if it didn't even have a ground mode.
Now you want to buff the ground damage, so that is deals damage pretty well to everything. Vikings already do this, though it may not seem like it, because people hardly ever use them on the ground (since it's air uses are so amazing). It has 12 ground DPS against everything already, which is a bit less than twice that of a stalker (6.9).
The viking is certainly not a unit that needs any more help. Instead you should be focusing on other units that are actually underused.
i was thinking about the useless ground vikings few days ago, and i was wondering why noone ever said nothing about that. If blizzard can find a role to ground viking, and fix the thor ability, terran mech should be ok.
On September 23 2012 01:47 Fig wrote: This is not a good idea. The viking is already the best air superiority unit in the game. It takes out anything armored with ease, as well as anything that is massive, since those air units are all armored too. And it does this from 9 range, at a low unit cost. As a protoss, I would kill for this unit even if it didn't even have a ground mode.
Now you want to buff the ground damage, so that is deals damage pretty well to everything. Vikings already do this, though it may not seem like it, because people hardly ever use them on the ground (since it's air uses are so amazing). It has 12 ground DPS against everything already, which is a bit less than twice that of a stalker (6.9).
The viking is certainly not a unit that needs any more help. Instead you should be focusing on other units that are actually underused.
No. Ground mode vikings are bad.
And also, their ground weapons cant be upgraded. <<<----- this is wrong, sorry. but it would be better if mech weapons affected their ground attack.
edit: ground mode vikings was one of the things that was hit by Blizzard's blanket nerfs at the time when terrans were only doing abusive shit instead of developing solid play styles. The actual argument was that it was too good vs queens I think. This should not apply anymore because Zergs has learned to make many queens and transfuse them when their hp gets in the red.
Mech and Air upgrades are separate for a reason. If an endgame Terran could switch between a tank based army and a Battlecruiser based army and have 3/3 upgrades "for free" it would just be ridiculous.
Vikings deserve to benefit from mech upgrades because their role is VERY similar to the Goliath from scBW. It is a weak anti-ground unit and a strong anti-air unit with very long range. Against any serious air army, Thors don't cut it, you need Vikes to defend your tanks from air. (just like Goliaths) Compared to the Golie it is more expensive and fragile mainly because of the advantage in mobility. (Vikings can chase down BLs and BCs/Carriers no matter where they retreat, Goliaths can't)
On September 23 2012 01:47 Fig wrote: This is not a good idea. The viking is already the best air superiority unit in the game. It takes out anything armored with ease, as well as anything that is massive, since those air units are all armored too. And it does this from 9 range, at a low unit cost. As a protoss, I would kill for this unit even if it didn't even have a ground mode.
Now you want to buff the ground damage, so that is deals damage pretty well to everything. Vikings already do this, though it may not seem like it, because people hardly ever use them on the ground (since it's air uses are so amazing). It has 12 ground DPS against everything already, which is a bit less than twice that of a stalker (6.9).
The viking is certainly not a unit that needs any more help. Instead you should be focusing on other units that are actually underused.
No. Ground mode vikings are bad.
And also, their ground weapons cant be upgraded. <<<----- this is wrong, sorry. but it would be better if mech weapons affected their ground attack.
edit: ground mode vikings was one of the things that was hit by Blizzard's blanket nerfs at the time when terrans were only doing abusive shit instead of developing solid play styles. The actual argument was that it was too good vs queens I think. This should not apply anymore because Zergs has learned to make many queens and transfuse them when their hp gets in the red.
The problem I would say, is that many terran units are very specialized with what they do. Units like the Viking/Banshee/Marauder have such high DPS in their strong area because they are supposed to do one thing really well. The viking ground mode is basically just a little bonus for them, to increase their versatility a bit, like the phoenix's graviton beam.
It would be fine to make them more of an all-around unit by making the ground attack more useful, but you would have to nerf their already very strong air-to-air weapon.
vikings are more than fine. they are superstrong antiair and as a bonus get a ground option. a buff is totally unneeded. ground attack is just for really rare occasions like harrassment on unprotected bases or as a emergency buffer for your ground army. viking ground is not supposed to be part of your standard ground army...
On September 23 2012 02:05 Piousflea wrote: Mech and Air upgrades are separate for a reason. If an endgame Terran could switch between a tank based army and a Battlecruiser based army and have 3/3 upgrades "for free" it would just be ridiculous.
Vikings deserve to benefit from mech upgrades because their role is VERY similar to the Goliath from scBW. It is a weak anti-ground unit and a strong anti-air unit with very long range. Against any serious air army, Thors don't cut it, you need Vikes to defend your tanks from air. (just like Goliaths) Compared to the Golie it is more expensive and fragile mainly because of the advantage in mobility. (Vikings can chase down BLs and BCs/Carriers no matter where they retreat, Goliaths can't)
LOL, you said "switch" between a tank based army to a BC based army. Do you know how long it takes to "switch" to a BC army? BC's take like a full in game minute to build. If they can make it further than the middle of the map, they will never make it back home if whoever you're playing has some sense.
On September 23 2012 01:47 Fig wrote: This is not a good idea. The viking is already the best air superiority unit in the game. It takes out anything armored with ease, as well as anything that is massive, since those air units are all armored too. And it does this from 9 range, at a low unit cost. As a protoss, I would kill for this unit even if it didn't even have a ground mode.
Now you want to buff the ground damage, so that is deals damage pretty well to everything. Vikings already do this, though it may not seem like it, because people hardly ever use them on the ground (since it's air uses are so amazing). It has 12 ground DPS against everything already, which is a bit less than twice that of a stalker (6.9).
The viking is certainly not a unit that needs any more help. Instead you should be focusing on other units that are actually underused.
No. Ground mode vikings are bad.
And also, their ground weapons cant be upgraded. <<<----- this is wrong, sorry. but it would be better if mech weapons affected their ground attack.
edit: ground mode vikings was one of the things that was hit by Blizzard's blanket nerfs at the time when terrans were only doing abusive shit instead of developing solid play styles. The actual argument was that it was too good vs queens I think. This should not apply anymore because Zergs has learned to make many queens and transfuse them when their hp gets in the red.
The problem I would say, is that many terran units are very specialized with what they do. Units like the Viking/Banshee/Marauder have such high DPS in their strong area because they are supposed to do one thing really well. The viking ground mode is basically just a little bonus for them, to increase their versatility a bit, like the phoenix's graviton beam.
It would be fine to make them more of an all-around unit by making the ground attack more useful, but you would have to nerf their already very strong air-to-air weapon.
No. It is designed as a flying goliath. Goliaths also had very long range vs air units. The differences are that the viking must fly to attack air and that its ground weapons suck compared to the goliath.
This would be a good idea. Vikings on the ground suck right now. I think they originally changed viking armor because...of a terrible map pool and trying to balance the game too quickly.
Ever since then vikings on the ground have been bad.
On September 23 2012 02:26 avilo wrote: This would be a good idea. Vikings on the ground suck right now. I think they originally changed viking armor because...of a terrible map pool and trying to balance the game too quickly.
Ever since then vikings on the ground have been bad.
its a superstrong antiair. why should it have a strong ground attack also? i mean srsly wtf? the corruptor has NO ground attack at all. ground attack to vikings is just a bonus so they are superfine and wont be changed!
On September 23 2012 02:21 Decendos wrote: vikings are more than fine. they are superstrong antiair and as a bonus get a ground option. a buff is totally unneeded. ground attack is just for really rare occasions like harrassment on unprotected bases or as a emergency buffer for your ground army. viking ground is not supposed to be part of your standard ground army...
The problem is that they are obviously a modified Goliath. The ground mode is little more than a gimmick in its current state. With better vs ground attack it could be used vs archons and immortal shields as a part of a standard ground army - just like the Goliath was.
This got me thinking though ... I am so gonna make a troll build where I push off two bases with battle hellions , thors and landed vikings. The transformers push! I'll probably push with a lot of repairing scvs and two medivacs to heal the battle hellions and the repairing scv and so that I also can do epic dropship micro.
On September 23 2012 02:21 Decendos wrote: vikings are more than fine. they are superstrong antiair and as a bonus get a ground option. a buff is totally unneeded. ground attack is just for really rare occasions like harrassment on unprotected bases or as a emergency buffer for your ground army. viking ground is not supposed to be part of your standard ground army...
The problem is that they are obviously a modified Goliath. The ground mode is little more than a gimmick in its current state. With better vs ground attack it could be used vs archons and immortal shields as a part of a standard ground army - just like the Goliath was.
This got me thinking though ... I am so gonna make a troll build where I push off two bases with battle hellions , thors and landed vikings. The transformers push!
it is not a goliath?? the fact that vikings can fly everywhere makes them SO MUCH better in harrassing then goliaths. so making their ground attack strong would make them way too strong. they are already the best air to air unit in the game. there is supposed to be tradeoffs with units. a unit that can fly and has a strong air and ground attack and costs only 2 supply is just way too strong.
i know there is lot of thinking and discussing HOTS right now but lets focus on the real important things that make the game better like nerfing marines/buffing tanks or nerfing warpgate/buffing gateways or things like rework fungal, collosus and FF.
On September 23 2012 02:21 Decendos wrote: vikings are more than fine. they are superstrong antiair and as a bonus get a ground option. a buff is totally unneeded. ground attack is just for really rare occasions like harrassment on unprotected bases or as a emergency buffer for your ground army. viking ground is not supposed to be part of your standard ground army...
The problem is that they are obviously a modified Goliath. The ground mode is little more than a gimmick in its current state. With better vs ground attack it could be used vs archons and immortal shields as a part of a standard ground army - just like the Goliath was.
This got me thinking though ... I am so gonna make a troll build where I push off two bases with battle hellions , thors and landed vikings. The transformers push!
it is not a goliath?? the fact that vikings can fly everywhere makes them SO MUCH better in harrassing then goliaths. so making their ground attack strong would make them way too strong. they are already the best air to air unit in the game. there is supposed to be tradeoffs with units. a unit that can fly and has a strong air and ground attack and costs only 2 supply is just way too strong.
i know there is lot of thinking and discussing HOTS right now but lets focus on the real important things that make the game better like nerfing marines/buffing tanks or nerfing warpgate/buffing gateways or things like rework fungal, collosus and FF.
No, carriers and corruptors are better anti air units. Also battlecruisers. How often do you see viking harass these days? The only time it works is when a normal drop would have done an equally good job. Spines ,turrets , queens and cannons can shut down viking harass pretty easy.
Very little would have to change to make the vikings better vs ground. Maybe they don't even need a damage buff. If they did 10 damage with a higher rate of fire they would not trigger immortal hardened shields and be more effective with their DPS in this case. Together with better vs ground range it could be a very good unit.
On September 23 2012 02:26 avilo wrote: This would be a good idea. Vikings on the ground suck right now. I think they originally changed viking armor because...of a terrible map pool and trying to balance the game too quickly.
Ever since then vikings on the ground have been bad.
^^
Vikings are basically goliaths but instead of being ground based with AOE AA, they are air based with decent damage vs certain units. But on the ground... they are worse than what the goliath used to be even though they cost more money and require (technically) more tech as you cant make them from the factory.
What if there was a way to make landed vikings from a factory that cant fly until a starport is made. Once a starport is made, you can then choose weather you want to make a battle mode viking from the factory or an AA viking from starport. I think that would be legit along with slight damage and armor buff.
On September 23 2012 02:35 Decendos wrote: it is not a goliath?? the fact that vikings can fly everywhere makes them SO MUCH better in harrassing then goliaths.
Both Goliaths and Vikings are pretty terrible at harassing, so that point is moot.
Vikings are useless supply. They are only good at killing capital ships, colossi, and broodlords. It is the best feeling in the world as a zerg to see a terran land his vikings, because you know you have won the game at that point. Even if vikings had air armor and weapons in the air and land on the ground it would make a huge difference.
On September 23 2012 02:26 avilo wrote: This would be a good idea. Vikings on the ground suck right now. I think they originally changed viking armor because...of a terrible map pool and trying to balance the game too quickly.
Ever since then vikings on the ground have been bad.
agreed.
Vikings were just one of the many units that got nerfed prematurely to help compensate for a map pool that included Jungle Basin, Steppes of War, Kulas Ravine, Delta Quadrant, Desert Oasis, and Xel'Naga Caverns.
Were today's map pool in Season 1, Vikings would never have been nerfed like they were. Its long past time they had their armor and damage in Ground Mode restored.
On September 23 2012 02:05 Piousflea wrote: Mech and Air upgrades are separate for a reason. If an endgame Terran could switch between a tank based army and a Battlecruiser based army and have 3/3 upgrades "for free" it would just be ridiculous.
Vikings deserve to benefit from mech upgrades because their role is VERY similar to the Goliath from scBW. It is a weak anti-ground unit and a strong anti-air unit with very long range. Against any serious air army, Thors don't cut it, you need Vikes to defend your tanks from air. (just like Goliaths) Compared to the Golie it is more expensive and fragile mainly because of the advantage in mobility. (Vikings can chase down BLs and BCs/Carriers no matter where they retreat, Goliaths can't)
LOL, you said "switch" between a tank based army to a BC based army. Do you know how long it takes to "switch" to a BC army? BC's take like a full in game minute to build. If they can make it further than the middle of the map, they will never make it back home if whoever you're playing has some sense.
They take 90s. Of course, carriers take 120s. You know, with a bunch of star ports, you only need a few minutes to mix a bunch of BCs into your army... 4 star ports... 8 BCs in 3 minutes... Just do a drop to blow enough supply for 4 BCs, and start them building. 90s later, do another drop and repeat...
On September 23 2012 02:26 avilo wrote: This would be a good idea. Vikings on the ground suck right now. I think they originally changed viking armor because...of a terrible map pool and trying to balance the game too quickly.
Ever since then vikings on the ground have been bad.
^^
Vikings are basically goliaths but instead of being ground based with AOE AA, they are air based with decent damage vs certain units. But on the ground... they are worse than what the goliath used to be even though they cost more money and require (technically) more tech as you cant make them from the factory.
What if there was a way to make landed vikings from a factory that cant fly until a starport is made. Once a starport is made, you can then choose weather you want to make a battle mode viking from the factory or an AA viking from starport. I think that would be legit along with slight damage and armor buff.
On September 23 2012 02:21 Decendos wrote: vikings are more than fine. they are superstrong antiair and as a bonus get a ground option. a buff is totally unneeded. ground attack is just for really rare occasions like harrassment on unprotected bases or as a emergency buffer for your ground army. viking ground is not supposed to be part of your standard ground army...
The problem is that they are obviously a modified Goliath. The ground mode is little more than a gimmick in its current state. With better vs ground attack it could be used vs archons and immortal shields as a part of a standard ground army - just like the Goliath was.
This got me thinking though ... I am so gonna make a troll build where I push off two bases with battle hellions , thors and landed vikings. The transformers push!
it is not a goliath?? the fact that vikings can fly everywhere makes them SO MUCH better in harrassing then goliaths. so making their ground attack strong would make them way too strong. they are already the best air to air unit in the game. there is supposed to be tradeoffs with units. a unit that can fly and has a strong air and ground attack and costs only 2 supply is just way too strong.
i know there is lot of thinking and discussing HOTS right now but lets focus on the real important things that make the game better like nerfing marines/buffing tanks or nerfing warpgate/buffing gateways or things like rework fungal, collosus and FF.
No, carriers and corruptors are better anti air units. Also battlecruisers. How often do you see viking harass these days? The only time it works is when a normal drop would have done an equally good job. Spines ,turrets , queens and cannons can shut down viking harass pretty easy.
Very little would have to change to make the vikings better vs ground. Maybe they don't even need a damage buff. If they did 10 damage with a higher rate of fire they would not trigger immortal hardened shields and be more effective with their DPS in this case. Together with better vs ground range it could be a very good unit.
That explains why we see people making battlecruisers and carriers more frequently than vikings. *trollface*
On September 23 2012 02:35 Decendos wrote: it is not a goliath?? the fact that vikings can fly everywhere makes them SO MUCH better in harrassing then goliaths.
Both Goliaths and Vikings are pretty terrible at harassing, so that point is moot.
if you would buff ground attack (which is the point of this thread) they would be strong for harrass...a lot stronger than goliaths since they could savely fly and then harrass.
I think it's a bit annoying to have leftover vikings or corruptors after colossi are dead, it's nice if you can use those units for different purposes. Corruptors can be used for morphing to brood lords, but vikings lack a bit of purpose for harassment and such. I view them a bit like overlords: you have them already, so why not design them so you can do some cool stuff with them. Buffing ground damage is a simple solution to that. They used to have +2 ground damage, but Blizzard changed that because tank/viking was dominant in TvT iirc.
On September 23 2012 02:21 Decendos wrote: vikings are more than fine. they are superstrong antiair and as a bonus get a ground option. a buff is totally unneeded. ground attack is just for really rare occasions like harrassment on unprotected bases or as a emergency buffer for your ground army. viking ground is not supposed to be part of your standard ground army...
The problem is that they are obviously a modified Goliath. The ground mode is little more than a gimmick in its current state. With better vs ground attack it could be used vs archons and immortal shields as a part of a standard ground army - just like the Goliath was.
This got me thinking though ... I am so gonna make a troll build where I push off two bases with battle hellions , thors and landed vikings. The transformers push!
it is not a goliath?? the fact that vikings can fly everywhere makes them SO MUCH better in harrassing then goliaths. so making their ground attack strong would make them way too strong. they are already the best air to air unit in the game. there is supposed to be tradeoffs with units. a unit that can fly and has a strong air and ground attack and costs only 2 supply is just way too strong.
i know there is lot of thinking and discussing HOTS right now but lets focus on the real important things that make the game better like nerfing marines/buffing tanks or nerfing warpgate/buffing gateways or things like rework fungal, collosus and FF.
No, carriers and corruptors are better anti air units. Also battlecruisers. How often do you see viking harass these days? The only time it works is when a normal drop would have done an equally good job. Spines ,turrets , queens and cannons can shut down viking harass pretty easy.
Very little would have to change to make the vikings better vs ground. Maybe they don't even need a damage buff. If they did 10 damage with a higher rate of fire they would not trigger immortal hardened shields and be more effective with their DPS in this case. Together with better vs ground range it could be a very good unit.
That explains why we see people making battlecruisers and carriers more frequently than vikings. *trollface*
And your argument is ... ?
It is not about frequency, lol.
You (intentionally?) left out the corruptor in your "argument". Zergs make a lot of corruptors despite terran having vikings. As long as there are infestors and brood lords out the corruptors are really good.
Battlecruisers are made in TvT... In most TvTs that go to lategame you will see BCs.
In TvP the carrier is really fucking scary if terran goes mech.
The viking has good range and good single target damage vs armored air units. That is pretty much it.
On September 23 2012 03:00 Grumbels wrote: I think it's a bit annoying to have leftover vikings or corruptors after colossi are dead, it's nice if you can use those units for different purposes. Corruptors can be used for morphing to brood lords, but vikings lack a bit of purpose for harassment and such. I view them a bit like overlords: you have them already, so why not design them so you can do some cool stuff with them. Buffing ground damage is a simple solution to that. They used to have +2 ground damage, but Blizzard changed that because tank/viking was dominant in TvT iirc.
Viking tank was never dominant in the sense some people are thinking.
Remember...steppes of war, desert oasis, *crap station, delta quadrant, lost temple, kulas ravine...lots of terrible maps. Also, no one knew how to play bio back then properly with transitions to air/nukes/tanks themselves...also tanks did way more damage back then before david kim decided he hated them.
So no, tank/viking as a strategy itself was not mega strong, it was mostly popular because of the map pool and people's lack of understanding of the game at that time, as well as tanks being stronger so you did not need as much hellion support to buffer against bio/other tanks.
Which is why it's also worrying that blizzard is currently tweaking HOTS balance based off of what a lot of people would argue are not well designed maps.
You can't do entire balance tweaks to a game on a terrible map pool, otherwise you end up with an entirely different balance on well designed maps.
Vikings are already ridiculously good on the ground. I remember in the olden days I used to go mass blink stalker to try and win the vs ground army, cuz every terran would go mass viking to beat colossus, and even after I beat the ground army, as soon as he landed the vikings I'd die. Because, as I learned, viking >> Stalker.
So you already have a unit that's better for air superiority, and better as a ground army than a stalker. Flying has better mobility than blink. They are only slightly worse than corruptors for air battles, but then once you win air superiority, you can land, and then they're like free marines?
They are so good, only issue is, they're not a tanky unit. (but then, what is? The only unit in SC2 I'd even suggest is 'tanky' is a roach) So no, if you land them in front of your tanks to try and soak up damage it's not going to work very well (But they do fare very well against splash). But if you buff their health you'd better lower their DPS proportionally. They sure don't need easier damage upgrades.
On September 23 2012 03:02 FinestHour wrote: map pool ruined what potential sc2 coulda had
I don't know if it "ruined" it, but it had a very big, negative effect no doubt.
I remember TLO doing some reactor Viking opening in TvZ. Now, back then it looked imba, but was it also because players were just hands down terrible at the game along with the map pool? We will never know.
On topic, there is not a reason in the world why Vikings do not benefit from ground upgrades while in ground mode. In late game they are 0/0 ground units meant to offer support against 3/3 units...it's just stupid design...you are better of flying them away in case you'll need them later.
They would help mech if they benefited from ground upgrades, so it will most likely never happen.
On September 23 2012 03:00 Grumbels wrote: I think it's a bit annoying to have leftover vikings or corruptors after colossi are dead, it's nice if you can use those units for different purposes. Corruptors can be used for morphing to brood lords, but vikings lack a bit of purpose for harassment and such. I view them a bit like overlords: you have them already, so why not design them so you can do some cool stuff with them. Buffing ground damage is a simple solution to that. They used to have +2 ground damage, but Blizzard changed that because tank/viking was dominant in TvT iirc.
Viking tank was never dominant in the sense some people are thinking.
Remember...steppes of war, desert oasis, *crap station, delta quadrant, lost temple, kulas ravine...lots of terrible maps. Also, no one knew how to play bio back then properly with transitions to air/nukes/tanks themselves...also tanks did way more damage back then before david kim decided he hated them.
So no, tank/viking as a strategy itself was not mega strong, it was mostly popular because of the map pool and people's lack of understanding of the game at that time, as well as tanks being stronger so you did not need as much hellion support to buffer against bio/other tanks.
Which is why it's also worrying that blizzard is currently tweaking HOTS balance based off of what a lot of people would argue are not well designed maps.
You can't do entire balance tweaks to a game on a terrible map pool, otherwise you end up with an entirely different balance on well designed maps.
First: Vikings are arguably the best air-to-air in the game, possessing excellent mobility, superb range, and great damage. If they never had a ground mode in the first place, Terran would still be balanced. Ground mode is a situational ability that allows you to get even more use out of an already superb unit. The only air-to-air that can even compare is the Corruptor, which lacks the lethal range and ground attack of the Viking.
Second: if you'd been paying attention, Blizzard has a PhD statistician who has been running tests on those maps and has found that player skill is infinitely more important than map balance in terms of determining wins. Maybe you should stop reading Destiny's blogs all the time.
To summarize: the maps aren't an issue as much as the players are in HotS. Vikings are already fantastic units, and asking for a better ground form is like asking for icing on your cake. Terran already has one unit that's great against anything (Marine), it hardly needs more.
On September 23 2012 03:00 Grumbels wrote: I think it's a bit annoying to have leftover vikings or corruptors after colossi are dead, it's nice if you can use those units for different purposes. Corruptors can be used for morphing to brood lords, but vikings lack a bit of purpose for harassment and such. I view them a bit like overlords: you have them already, so why not design them so you can do some cool stuff with them. Buffing ground damage is a simple solution to that. They used to have +2 ground damage, but Blizzard changed that because tank/viking was dominant in TvT iirc.
Viking tank was never dominant in the sense some people are thinking.
Remember...steppes of war, desert oasis, *crap station, delta quadrant, lost temple, kulas ravine...lots of terrible maps. Also, no one knew how to play bio back then properly with transitions to air/nukes/tanks themselves...also tanks did way more damage back then before david kim decided he hated them.
So no, tank/viking as a strategy itself was not mega strong, it was mostly popular because of the map pool and people's lack of understanding of the game at that time, as well as tanks being stronger so you did not need as much hellion support to buffer against bio/other tanks.
Which is why it's also worrying that blizzard is currently tweaking HOTS balance based off of what a lot of people would argue are not well designed maps.
You can't do entire balance tweaks to a game on a terrible map pool, otherwise you end up with an entirely different balance on well designed maps.
First: Vikings are arguably the best air-to-air in the game, possessing excellent mobility, superb range, and great damage. If they never had a ground mode in the first place, Terran would still be balanced. Ground mode is a situational ability that allows you to get even more use out of an already superb unit. The only air-to-air that can even compare is the Corruptor, which lacks the lethal range and ground attack of the Viking.
Second: if you'd been paying attention, Blizzard has a PhD statistician who has been running tests on those maps and has found that player skill is infinitely more important than map balance in terms of determining wins. Maybe you should stop reading Destiny's blogs all the time.
To summarize: the maps aren't an issue as much as the players are in HotS. Vikings are already fantastic units, and asking for a better ground form is like asking for icing on your cake. Terran already has one unit that's great against anything (Marine), it hardly needs more.
Yeah, the marine is what's gonna solve TvP mech. Great analysis.
The problem is exactly that Blizzard has a PhD statistician. Balance is not judged out of statistics. 50/50 win rates does not imply any balance whatsoever. They need people with great understanding of the game. They should hire retired progamers to help them with game balance because they have the necessary "PhD" in SC2 required to make good balance judgements.
The only change I'd like is to make Vikings more well-rounded rather than pigeonholed to air to air.
Something like nerf the range, but buff ground DPS and armour. It's a bit silly that the Viking has artillery range. (The Colossus+Fungal would probably need to change as well for this to work).
Let's talk about TvP. Right now, terrans have to think a little bit about exactly how many vikings they make. Too many, and they're fairly useless after colossi are dead. Too few, and you can't kill all colossi in time, and you may lose as a result.
Similarly, protoss players need to think about how many colossi they want to make. More than a couple of colossi is a big risk, banking on the terran player not committing heavily enough to vikings. Making too few is also a big risk, since the only other significant AoE damage dealer is the high templar, and terran may blanket emp your whole army, or cloak and lead with a few ghosts to snipe/emp templar.
This balancing act is something valuable. You don't want to destroy it by giving vikings too much utility. If a terran player thinks "Oh well, I might as well overmake vikings, since they're pretty good in my ball anyways," this eliminates strategic thinking and cheapens the matchup.
On September 23 2012 00:48 Piousflea wrote: 4) Vikings are surprisingly good against Archons. Throw a ball of ground vikings into a ball of archons in Unit Tester. The viking's fast attack busts through shields while its bulky size and Mechanical nature makes the archon's attack highly ineffective.
I'm sorry, this is just wrong. Vikings lose to archons in equal numbers, on equal supply (10 vs 20) and at both 3/3/3 vs 3/3 and 0/0/0 vs 0/0.
On September 23 2012 03:00 Grumbels wrote: I think it's a bit annoying to have leftover vikings or corruptors after colossi are dead, it's nice if you can use those units for different purposes. Corruptors can be used for morphing to brood lords, but vikings lack a bit of purpose for harassment and such. I view them a bit like overlords: you have them already, so why not design them so you can do some cool stuff with them. Buffing ground damage is a simple solution to that. They used to have +2 ground damage, but Blizzard changed that because tank/viking was dominant in TvT iirc.
Viking tank was never dominant in the sense some people are thinking.
Remember...steppes of war, desert oasis, *crap station, delta quadrant, lost temple, kulas ravine...lots of terrible maps. Also, no one knew how to play bio back then properly with transitions to air/nukes/tanks themselves...also tanks did way more damage back then before david kim decided he hated them.
So no, tank/viking as a strategy itself was not mega strong, it was mostly popular because of the map pool and people's lack of understanding of the game at that time, as well as tanks being stronger so you did not need as much hellion support to buffer against bio/other tanks.
Which is why it's also worrying that blizzard is currently tweaking HOTS balance based off of what a lot of people would argue are not well designed maps.
You can't do entire balance tweaks to a game on a terrible map pool, otherwise you end up with an entirely different balance on well designed maps.
First: Vikings are arguably the best air-to-air in the game, possessing excellent mobility, superb range, and great damage. If they never had a ground mode in the first place, Terran would still be balanced. Ground mode is a situational ability that allows you to get even more use out of an already superb unit. The only air-to-air that can even compare is the Corruptor, which lacks the lethal range and ground attack of the Viking.
Second: if you'd been paying attention, Blizzard has a PhD statistician who has been running tests on those maps and has found that player skill is infinitely more important than map balance in terms of determining wins. Maybe you should stop reading Destiny's blogs all the time.
To summarize: the maps aren't an issue as much as the players are in HotS. Vikings are already fantastic units, and asking for a better ground form is like asking for icing on your cake. Terran already has one unit that's great against anything (Marine), it hardly needs more.
Yeah, the marine is what's gonna solve TvP mech. Great analysis.
The problem is exactly that Blizzard has a PhD statistician. Balance is not judged out of statistics. 50/50 win rates does not imply any balance whatsoever. They need people with great understanding of the game. They should hire retired progamers to help them with game balance because they have the necessary "PhD" in SC2 required to make good balance judgements.
You're making a strawman argument there. Battle Hellions are already fixing the worst issue with mech TvP, which is that a warpin round of Chargelots comes quickly enough that the Terran can't properly replenish the buffer that protects the tanks.
You clearly don't have any "great understanding of the game", or you'd realize that having player skill matter more than map balance means that it IS possible to balance with those maps. Oh, and you know what? They ARE getting the help of progamers. There is a private Blizzard forum that the progamers who were invited into HotS have access to. It's where the PhD statistician comment came from, incidentally. Remember that new Oracle shield ability? Grubby came up with that one. So please, stop talking out of your ass. It's embarrassing to watch.
On September 23 2012 03:33 SarcasmMonster wrote: The only change I'd like is to make Vikings more well-rounded rather than pigeonholed to air to air.
Something like nerf the range, but buff ground DPS and armour. It's a bit silly that the Viking has artillery range. (The Colossus+Fungal would probably need to change as well for this to work).
You're absolutely right on the last point. Vikings right now NEED to be that strong against air, because otherwise Terran has no good answer to Colossi or Corruptor/Infestor/Broodlord. I'd like to see a set of sweeping changes to fix all of that, but I'm not sure if Blizzard would be on board with it. Plus, there would be a LOT of whining in the community.
On September 23 2012 03:20 GoldenH wrote: Vikings are already ridiculously good on the ground. I remember in the olden days I used to go mass blink stalker to try and win the vs ground army, cuz every terran would go mass viking to beat colossus, and even after I beat the ground army, as soon as he landed the vikings I'd die. Because, as I learned, viking >> Stalker.
So you already have a unit that's better for air superiority, and better as a ground army than a stalker. Flying has better mobility than blink. They are only slightly worse than corruptors for air battles, but then once you win air superiority, you can land, and then they're like free marines?
They are so good, only issue is, they're not a tanky unit. (but then, what is? The only unit in SC2 I'd even suggest is 'tanky' is a roach) So no, if you land them in front of your tanks to try and soak up damage it's not going to work very well (But they do fare very well against splash). But if you buff their health you'd better lower their DPS proportionally. They sure don't need easier damage upgrades.
Which is how it should be. The viking should still be good on the ground and not a paper weight. There's lots of situations tvp/tvz where the Terran appropriately counters his opponent's units and then the opponent remaxes on pure ground and the vikings become worthless.
On September 23 2012 00:48 Piousflea wrote: 4) Vikings are surprisingly good against Archons. Throw a ball of ground vikings into a ball of archons in Unit Tester. The viking's fast attack busts through shields while its bulky size and Mechanical nature makes the archon's attack highly ineffective.
I'm sorry, this is just wrong. Vikings lose to archons in equal numbers, on equal supply (10 vs 20) and at both 3/3/3 vs 3/3 and 0/0/0 vs 0/0.
Why would you think of supply equivalence to make this comparison? That's a bizarre way to think about it, since archons cost 300 gas. Gas is the bottleneck in a protoss army (and also in a mech army), so that's what you should be talking about. Try again--40 vikings to 10 archons.
On September 23 2012 03:20 GoldenH wrote: Vikings are already ridiculously good on the ground. I remember in the olden days I used to go mass blink stalker to try and win the vs ground army, cuz every terran would go mass viking to beat colossus, and even after I beat the ground army, as soon as he landed the vikings I'd die. Because, as I learned, viking >> Stalker.
So you already have a unit that's better for air superiority, and better as a ground army than a stalker. Flying has better mobility than blink. They are only slightly worse than corruptors for air battles, but then once you win air superiority, you can land, and then they're like free marines?
They are so good, only issue is, they're not a tanky unit. (but then, what is? The only unit in SC2 I'd even suggest is 'tanky' is a roach) So no, if you land them in front of your tanks to try and soak up damage it's not going to work very well (But they do fare very well against splash). But if you buff their health you'd better lower their DPS proportionally. They sure don't need easier damage upgrades.
Which is how it should be. The viking should still be good on the ground and not a paper weight. There's lots of situations tvp/tvz where the Terran appropriately counters his opponent's units and then the opponent remaxes on pure ground and the vikings become worthless.
The problem you're describing sounds like it's caused by terran making too many vikings.
On September 23 2012 03:00 Grumbels wrote: I think it's a bit annoying to have leftover vikings or corruptors after colossi are dead, it's nice if you can use those units for different purposes. Corruptors can be used for morphing to brood lords, but vikings lack a bit of purpose for harassment and such. I view them a bit like overlords: you have them already, so why not design them so you can do some cool stuff with them. Buffing ground damage is a simple solution to that. They used to have +2 ground damage, but Blizzard changed that because tank/viking was dominant in TvT iirc.
Viking tank was never dominant in the sense some people are thinking.
Remember...steppes of war, desert oasis, *crap station, delta quadrant, lost temple, kulas ravine...lots of terrible maps. Also, no one knew how to play bio back then properly with transitions to air/nukes/tanks themselves...also tanks did way more damage back then before david kim decided he hated them.
So no, tank/viking as a strategy itself was not mega strong, it was mostly popular because of the map pool and people's lack of understanding of the game at that time, as well as tanks being stronger so you did not need as much hellion support to buffer against bio/other tanks.
Which is why it's also worrying that blizzard is currently tweaking HOTS balance based off of what a lot of people would argue are not well designed maps.
You can't do entire balance tweaks to a game on a terrible map pool, otherwise you end up with an entirely different balance on well designed maps.
First: Vikings are arguably the best air-to-air in the game, possessing excellent mobility, superb range, and great damage. If they never had a ground mode in the first place, Terran would still be balanced. Ground mode is a situational ability that allows you to get even more use out of an already superb unit. The only air-to-air that can even compare is the Corruptor, which lacks the lethal range and ground attack of the Viking.
Second: if you'd been paying attention, Blizzard has a PhD statistician who has been running tests on those maps and has found that player skill is infinitely more important than map balance in terms of determining wins. Maybe you should stop reading Destiny's blogs all the time.
To summarize: the maps aren't an issue as much as the players are in HotS. Vikings are already fantastic units, and asking for a better ground form is like asking for icing on your cake. Terran already has one unit that's great against anything (Marine), it hardly needs more.
Yeah, the marine is what's gonna solve TvP mech. Great analysis.
The problem is exactly that Blizzard has a PhD statistician. Balance is not judged out of statistics. 50/50 win rates does not imply any balance whatsoever. They need people with great understanding of the game. They should hire retired progamers to help them with game balance because they have the necessary "PhD" in SC2 required to make good balance judgements.
You're making a strawman argument there. Battle Hellions are already fixing the worst issue with mech TvP, which is that a warpin round of Chargelots comes quickly enough that the Terran can't properly replenish the buffer that protects the tanks.
You clearly don't have any "great understanding of the game", or you'd realize that having player skill matter more than map balance means that it IS possible to balance with those maps. Oh, and you know what? They ARE getting the help of progamers. There is a private Blizzard forum that the progamers who were invited into HotS have access to. It's where the PhD statistician comment came from, incidentally. Remember that new Oracle shield ability? Grubby came up with that one. So please, stop talking out of your ass. It's embarrassing to watch.
You are just clueless. You didnt even understand what I wrote. No need to discuss anymore with you.
On September 23 2012 03:00 Grumbels wrote: I think it's a bit annoying to have leftover vikings or corruptors after colossi are dead, it's nice if you can use those units for different purposes. Corruptors can be used for morphing to brood lords, but vikings lack a bit of purpose for harassment and such. I view them a bit like overlords: you have them already, so why not design them so you can do some cool stuff with them. Buffing ground damage is a simple solution to that. They used to have +2 ground damage, but Blizzard changed that because tank/viking was dominant in TvT iirc.
Viking tank was never dominant in the sense some people are thinking.
Remember...steppes of war, desert oasis, *crap station, delta quadrant, lost temple, kulas ravine...lots of terrible maps. Also, no one knew how to play bio back then properly with transitions to air/nukes/tanks themselves...also tanks did way more damage back then before david kim decided he hated them.
So no, tank/viking as a strategy itself was not mega strong, it was mostly popular because of the map pool and people's lack of understanding of the game at that time, as well as tanks being stronger so you did not need as much hellion support to buffer against bio/other tanks.
Which is why it's also worrying that blizzard is currently tweaking HOTS balance based off of what a lot of people would argue are not well designed maps.
You can't do entire balance tweaks to a game on a terrible map pool, otherwise you end up with an entirely different balance on well designed maps.
First: Vikings are arguably the best air-to-air in the game, possessing excellent mobility, superb range, and great damage. If they never had a ground mode in the first place, Terran would still be balanced. Ground mode is a situational ability that allows you to get even more use out of an already superb unit. The only air-to-air that can even compare is the Corruptor, which lacks the lethal range and ground attack of the Viking.
Second: if you'd been paying attention, Blizzard has a PhD statistician who has been running tests on those maps and has found that player skill is infinitely more important than map balance in terms of determining wins. Maybe you should stop reading Destiny's blogs all the time.
To summarize: the maps aren't an issue as much as the players are in HotS. Vikings are already fantastic units, and asking for a better ground form is like asking for icing on your cake. Terran already has one unit that's great against anything (Marine), it hardly needs more.
Yeah, the marine is what's gonna solve TvP mech. Great analysis.
The problem is exactly that Blizzard has a PhD statistician. Balance is not judged out of statistics. 50/50 win rates does not imply any balance whatsoever. They need people with great understanding of the game. They should hire retired progamers to help them with game balance because they have the necessary "PhD" in SC2 required to make good balance judgements.
You're making a strawman argument there. Battle Hellions are already fixing the worst issue with mech TvP, which is that a warpin round of Chargelots comes quickly enough that the Terran can't properly replenish the buffer that protects the tanks.
You clearly don't have any "great understanding of the game", or you'd realize that having player skill matter more than map balance means that it IS possible to balance with those maps. Oh, and you know what? They ARE getting the help of progamers. There is a private Blizzard forum that the progamers who were invited into HotS have access to. It's where the PhD statistician comment came from, incidentally. Remember that new Oracle shield ability? Grubby came up with that one. So please, stop talking out of your ass. It's embarrassing to watch.
You are just clueless. You didnt even understand what I wrote. No need to discuss anymore with you.
... -.-
Yeah, he does. I don't think you're "talking out of your arse", just being a bit misinformed, but you basically forfeit the argument.
OP: It's a very interesting thought, but I can't help but feel like Mech would be a little too strong. Between the Thor, the Viking, the BH, the Widow Mine(possibly), and the Tank PvT would be hell and ZvT would be worse.
HTs can't do much splash with Storm and can only feedback Thors, Archons are destroyed by Thors, Zeals are obliterated by BHs, Stalkers would be killed by Tanks and Thors, anything in the sky would be taken out by either Thors or Vikings.
A BL/Corruptor/Infestor army would be the best chance Zerg has against it, provided they can even get to it in time, but Vikings and Thors cover it pretty well. Ultras, meet Thors. A Ling/Bling/Muta army would have its blings shot by tanks, lings burned by BHs, and Mutas shot down by Thors and Vikings. BHs and Vikings would kill locusts too quickly for Swarm Hosts to be useful.
It fills holes because the Viking is almost exactly the same as a Goliath except it's AA is stronger and AG is weaker. Give Ground Vikings 1 armor is a really good idea imo. Should probably make the ground attack and armor scale off mech upgrades too
On September 23 2012 03:00 Grumbels wrote: I think it's a bit annoying to have leftover vikings or corruptors after colossi are dead, it's nice if you can use those units for different purposes. Corruptors can be used for morphing to brood lords, but vikings lack a bit of purpose for harassment and such. I view them a bit like overlords: you have them already, so why not design them so you can do some cool stuff with them. Buffing ground damage is a simple solution to that. They used to have +2 ground damage, but Blizzard changed that because tank/viking was dominant in TvT iirc.
Viking tank was never dominant in the sense some people are thinking.
Remember...steppes of war, desert oasis, *crap station, delta quadrant, lost temple, kulas ravine...lots of terrible maps. Also, no one knew how to play bio back then properly with transitions to air/nukes/tanks themselves...also tanks did way more damage back then before david kim decided he hated them.
So no, tank/viking as a strategy itself was not mega strong, it was mostly popular because of the map pool and people's lack of understanding of the game at that time, as well as tanks being stronger so you did not need as much hellion support to buffer against bio/other tanks.
Which is why it's also worrying that blizzard is currently tweaking HOTS balance based off of what a lot of people would argue are not well designed maps.
You can't do entire balance tweaks to a game on a terrible map pool, otherwise you end up with an entirely different balance on well designed maps.
First: Vikings are arguably the best air-to-air in the game, possessing excellent mobility, superb range, and great damage. If they never had a ground mode in the first place, Terran would still be balanced. Ground mode is a situational ability that allows you to get even more use out of an already superb unit. The only air-to-air that can even compare is the Corruptor, which lacks the lethal range and ground attack of the Viking.
Second: if you'd been paying attention, Blizzard has a PhD statistician who has been running tests on those maps and has found that player skill is infinitely more important than map balance in terms of determining wins. Maybe you should stop reading Destiny's blogs all the time.
To summarize: the maps aren't an issue as much as the players are in HotS. Vikings are already fantastic units, and asking for a better ground form is like asking for icing on your cake. Terran already has one unit that's great against anything (Marine), it hardly needs more.
Yeah, the marine is what's gonna solve TvP mech. Great analysis.
The problem is exactly that Blizzard has a PhD statistician. Balance is not judged out of statistics. 50/50 win rates does not imply any balance whatsoever. They need people with great understanding of the game. They should hire retired progamers to help them with game balance because they have the necessary "PhD" in SC2 required to make good balance judgements.
You're making a strawman argument there. Battle Hellions are already fixing the worst issue with mech TvP, which is that a warpin round of Chargelots comes quickly enough that the Terran can't properly replenish the buffer that protects the tanks.
You clearly don't have any "great understanding of the game", or you'd realize that having player skill matter more than map balance means that it IS possible to balance with those maps. Oh, and you know what? They ARE getting the help of progamers. There is a private Blizzard forum that the progamers who were invited into HotS have access to. It's where the PhD statistician comment came from, incidentally. Remember that new Oracle shield ability? Grubby came up with that one. So please, stop talking out of your ass. It's embarrassing to watch.
You are just clueless. You didnt even understand what I wrote. No need to discuss anymore with you.
... -.-
Yeah, he does. I don't think you're "talking out of your arse", just being a bit misinformed, but you basically forfeit the argument.
OP: It's a very interesting thought, but I can't help but feel like Mech would be a little too strong. Between the Thor, the Viking, the BH, the Widow Mine, and the Tank PvT would be hell and ZvT would be worse.
HTs can't do much splash with Storm and can only feedback Thors, Archons are destroyed by Thors, Zeals are obliterated by BHs, Stalkers would be killed by Tanks and Thors, anything in the sky would be taken out by either Thors or Vikings.
Yeah I did, but there wasn't gonna be any good discussion anyways. Whatever...
I wouldn't worry about mech being too strong vs protoss anytime soon. At least as long as they don't put the warhound back in. There are already soooo many things protoss can do to punish mech. If all high level terrans would start playing mech I bet we would see even more ways to deal with mech.
After all, protoss has many good units and mechanics vs mech.
Corruptors and Phoenixes are really bad against ground too. They also need buffs. Having pros and cons to investment is half the strategy of this game. Investing in Vikings is investing in air superiority, not ground superiority. It would be better to keep it that way. Not to mention that a buff to Vikings is just as much a buff to bio as it is mech.
On September 23 2012 04:55 Cloak wrote: Corruptors and Phoenixes are really bad against ground too. They also need buffs. Having pros and cons to investment is half the strategy of this game. Investing in Vikings is investing in air superiority, not ground superiority. It would be better to keep it that way. Not to mention that a buff to Vikings is just as much a buff to bio as it is mech.
Phoenixes bad vs ground?
Phoenixes own vs tanks, are good vs ground in PvP, and are good vs infestors in PvZ.
Corruptors can also change in to brood lords, and given how zerg's production works them being bad vs ground is not particularly important. Corruptors being bad vs ground hasn't been relevant since roach/hydra + corruptor vs protoss days.
On September 23 2012 04:55 Cloak wrote: Corruptors and Phoenixes are really bad against ground too. They also need buffs. Having pros and cons to investment is half the strategy of this game. Investing in Vikings is investing in air superiority, not ground superiority. It would be better to keep it that way. Not to mention that a buff to Vikings is just as much a buff to bio as it is mech.
Phoenixes bad vs ground?
Phoenixes own vs tanks, are good vs ground in PvP, and are good vs infestors in PvZ.
Corruptors can also change in to brood lords, and given how zerg's production works them being bad vs ground is not particularly important. Corruptors being bad vs ground hasn't been relevant since roach/hydra + corruptor vs protoss days.
Ever heard of Fungaling Phoenixes and automatically killing all of them with a couple of Infesteds? Once Infestors are out, Phoenixes are a nonissue.
And the 1 Tank they lift up won't even die before they all disintegrate to the bioball.
On September 23 2012 04:55 Cloak wrote: Corruptors and Phoenixes are really bad against ground too. They also need buffs. Having pros and cons to investment is half the strategy of this game. Investing in Vikings is investing in air superiority, not ground superiority. It would be better to keep it that way. Not to mention that a buff to Vikings is just as much a buff to bio as it is mech.
Phoenixes bad vs ground?
Phoenixes own vs tanks, are good vs ground in PvP, and are good vs infestors in PvZ.
Corruptors can also change in to brood lords, and given how zerg's production works them being bad vs ground is not particularly important. Corruptors being bad vs ground hasn't been relevant since roach/hydra + corruptor vs protoss days.
Ever heard of Fungaling Phoenixes and automatically killing all of them with a couple of Infesteds? Once Infestors are out, Phoenixes are a nonissue.
And the 1 Tank they lift up won't even die before they all disintegrate to the bioball.
If mech becomes viable, this won't happen. ^^
Also the new Oracle ability helps pheonix's, infact all of airtoss against infestors so hopefully that tests out and gets balanced correctly! Could be an awesome ability.
I really really like your idea OP. Making it 7x2 or 6x2 instead of 12 is just an great idea.
Its especially an awesome idea since it should be this way since forever designwise (having 2 machineguns). I thought it was like this already since it had 2 machineguns and it wouldnt make sense to give it a single attack instead of a dual.
I really really hope Blizz will change this immediately. (maybe also make it lose Armored when in ground mode)
On September 23 2012 04:55 Cloak wrote: Corruptors and Phoenixes are really bad against ground too. They also need buffs. Having pros and cons to investment is half the strategy of this game. Investing in Vikings is investing in air superiority, not ground superiority. It would be better to keep it that way. Not to mention that a buff to Vikings is just as much a buff to bio as it is mech.
Phoenixes bad vs ground?
Phoenixes own vs tanks, are good vs ground in PvP, and are good vs infestors in PvZ.
Corruptors can also change in to brood lords, and given how zerg's production works them being bad vs ground is not particularly important. Corruptors being bad vs ground hasn't been relevant since roach/hydra + corruptor vs protoss days.
Ever heard of Fungaling Phoenixes and automatically killing all of them with a couple of Infesteds? Once Infestors are out, Phoenixes are a nonissue.
And the 1 Tank they lift up won't even die before they all disintegrate to the bioball.
If mech becomes viable, this won't happen. ^^
Also the new Oracle ability helps pheonix's, infact all of airtoss against infestors so hopefully that tests out and gets balanced correctly! Could be an awesome ability.
True, that's why I'm hoping Mech and Oracle work out. But buffing Vikings seems to be unnecessary, especially since Mech's weakness is supposed to be air.
On September 23 2012 04:55 Cloak wrote: Corruptors and Phoenixes are really bad against ground too. They also need buffs. Having pros and cons to investment is half the strategy of this game. Investing in Vikings is investing in air superiority, not ground superiority. It would be better to keep it that way. Not to mention that a buff to Vikings is just as much a buff to bio as it is mech.
Phoenixes bad vs ground?
Phoenixes own vs tanks, are good vs ground in PvP, and are good vs infestors in PvZ.
Corruptors can also change in to brood lords, and given how zerg's production works them being bad vs ground is not particularly important. Corruptors being bad vs ground hasn't been relevant since roach/hydra + corruptor vs protoss days.
Ever heard of Fungaling Phoenixes and automatically killing all of them with a couple of Infesteds? Once Infestors are out, Phoenixes are a nonissue.
And the 1 Tank they lift up won't even die before they all disintegrate to the bioball.
If mech becomes viable, this won't happen. ^^
Also the new Oracle ability helps pheonix's, infact all of airtoss against infestors so hopefully that tests out and gets balanced correctly! Could be an awesome ability.
True, that's why I'm hoping Mech and Oracle work out. But buffing Vikings seems to be unnecessary, especially since Mech's weakness is supposed to be air.
In SC2 its also supposed to be Immortals right now.
Viking DPS on the ground is already quite high, and being extremely strong AtA I don't think they should be given any buffs to damage or hp. However, I do think they could make the transform animation significantly shorter to make people more willing to use them for harassing as well as enabling pseudo-blink-like micro.
On September 23 2012 04:55 Cloak wrote: Corruptors and Phoenixes are really bad against ground too. They also need buffs. Having pros and cons to investment is half the strategy of this game. Investing in Vikings is investing in air superiority, not ground superiority. It would be better to keep it that way. Not to mention that a buff to Vikings is just as much a buff to bio as it is mech.
Phoenixes bad vs ground?
Phoenixes own vs tanks, are good vs ground in PvP, and are good vs infestors in PvZ.
Corruptors can also change in to brood lords, and given how zerg's production works them being bad vs ground is not particularly important. Corruptors being bad vs ground hasn't been relevant since roach/hydra + corruptor vs protoss days.
Ever heard of Fungaling Phoenixes and automatically killing all of them with a couple of Infesteds? Once Infestors are out, Phoenixes are a nonissue.
And the 1 Tank they lift up won't even die before they all disintegrate to the bioball.
If mech becomes viable, this won't happen. ^^
Also the new Oracle ability helps pheonix's, infact all of airtoss against infestors so hopefully that tests out and gets balanced correctly! Could be an awesome ability.
True, that's why I'm hoping Mech and Oracle work out. But buffing Vikings seems to be unnecessary, especially since Mech's weakness is supposed to be air.
In SC2 its also supposed to be Immortals right now.
Well there's having a weakness, then there's having a unit that travels back in time and kills your mother before you have the chance to be born Terminator style. A bit over the top, but that's how much immortals counter mech in WoL ;p
However, in a perfect world Kyle Rees (the ghost) with his shotgun (EMP) will save the tanks mother and allow John Connor to be born (kill the immortal).
I've never really liked the viking, now with the battle hellion and the thor it seems like we're playing transformers instead of starcraft. The idea itself is pretty good, because a buff on the viking won't have any effect versus zerg imo.
First of all, I´m only randomplayer. So I may not be an expert, but I think I have at least some insight to all races.
1: Vikings are not awesome. They are long ranged and that´s it. + Show Spoiler +
In 1:1 supply they are roughly equal to Corruptors and Phoenixes. So in real games they have a considerable advantage thanks to their range. (Equal sup)They win against BC without Yamato and perform even with Yamato. They lose slightly to Carrier. Each of these units have something besides air ot air that makes them good. Corruptors are never wasted as long as you have a greater spire. Phoenixes are (arguably) good for harrassing and scouting. BC and Carrier are much better versus ground than vikings though they are very hard to produce. All that is awesome about vikings is that they cost 25 less gas than Corruptors and Phoenixes.
2: Grounded Vikings are anecdotally pretty shit. + Show Spoiler +
They are roughly a marauder without stim & conc shell, 1 less armor, can´t be healed, but 50%/300% more expensive out of a more gasheavy building.
2.5: Grounded Vikings can only fight where they can land.+ Show Spoiler +
Another reason why they suck at harass(Main reason is their much, much more valuable and much less effective compared to M&M Drops). Defense buildings damage them before they can land. During a battle it´s often hard to land vikings in good spots, especially if you have many vikings. Landing them next to enemy units is often suicide.
3. Terran infrastructure costs a fuckton more than other P and Z and produces units slower. THIS is often overlooked. + Show Spoiler +
Because of addons, a reactor Rax is worth 200/50, a lab Rax 200/25. Likewise are Factorys and Starports 200/150 or 200/125 depending on addon. There is no warpin in 5 seconds and there are no stored larva. Instead, addons take *additional* time to be built. A starport for example takes 50 seconds to build. A reactor takes another 50 seconds. A new reactor starport takes as much time to build as a hatchery(100 seconds). With the addition of Warpgates, Terran is the only race that cannot instantly build a new army. So Terran is much, much slower to change their production. Part of the reason why they have trouble in the lategame.
If Vikings were so awesome, Terrans would still build them before Colossus/Broodlords hit the field. It´s been a long time since I´ve seen that. They are very good in certain situations and obviously against Broodlords and Colossi, but there are also situations were they quite frankly suck. Considering the huge cost to get them - and by that I also mean the number of starports you had to build - they would still suck versus most ground units if they were buffed.
The Upgrades aren't even the biggest issue. And the single attack is better against Immortals. (Note: it was 14 damage but got nerfed because their damage output was to strong). You forgot Guardian Shield in your calculation, which makes 12 damage perfect against Immortal shields. And Immortals actually have 200 hull and +1 armor. A reason why small attacks aren't really effective against Immortals, except these units normally taking less damage from the Immortal in return.
That Vikings stack together quiet abit on the ground with a normal speed is something that you can undo with micro. But since the Immortal/Roach range buff, they are actually quiet outmatched in that regard, especially against the Immortal. It is really hard to focus fire Immortals now with them, as they are the mech thing against Immortal shields. That being said they are an low hp armored unit that has to hold of an army of armored killers with superior range. Hellions tanked quiet good, but their issue was the low hp and AoEs and that they are unable to wear down Immortal shields due to the lack of attack speed. Blizzard buffed these aspects, so the hellion can tank now, but they didn't addressed that there is no unit that can deal with Immortal shields. They actually had the Viking sitting under their noses, basically being better then the Battle Hellion already, but being useless on the ground with this armored flag. Terran is forced anyway to do atleast tripple upgrades right now, so getting air armor for Vikings on the ground is np. The Viking could have been such a nice Goliath replacement if it had been non armored on the ground and they actually change flags for the Battle Hellion now, so the Viking change would be no issue.
To prevent TvT from becoming Viking/ Siege tank again. (Vikings would be better marines on the ground if they wouldn't take extra damage) They could change Siege tank damage to 50-15 to light ... or if they don't like having negatives ingame. 35+15 against everything but light. Would only affect Queens and Archons.
So yeah, everything they did with the Battle Hellion, from the flag change to being able to build both units, would have probably made Mech more then viable in WoL against Toss. (Especially since Toss are still holding back on getting Shield upgrades, which makes their army even more durable.)
Battle Hellions are okay though, but they deny chargelots so heavily ... the viking would have been way better Imo and less of a hardconter. But right now you simply mix in Ghosts into Mech and suddenly immortals are no problem anymore. You got Vessels in BW mech, since the Ghost is the new Vessel (Radiation only kills psy units now though instead of everything ...) its still mech !
On September 23 2012 07:04 Mataza wrote: Ah yes, the eternal miscommunication.
First of all, I´m only randomplayer. So I may not be an expert, but I think I have at least some insight to all races.
1: Vikings are not awesome. They are long ranged and that´s it. + Show Spoiler +
In 1:1 supply they are roughly equal to Corruptors and Phoenixes. So in real games they have a considerable advantage thanks to their range. (Equal sup)They win against BC without Yamato and perform even with Yamato. They lose slightly to Carrier. Each of these units have something besides air ot air that makes them good. Corruptors are never wasted as long as you have a greater spire. Phoenixes are (arguably) good for harrassing and scouting. BC and Carrier are much better versus ground than vikings though they are very hard to produce. All that is awesome about vikings is that they cost 25 less gas than Corruptors and Phoenixes.
2: Grounded Vikings are anecdotally pretty shit. + Show Spoiler +
They are roughly a marauder without stim & conc shell, 1 less armor, can´t be healed, but 50%/300% more expensive out of a more gasheavy building.
2.5: Grounded Vikings can only fight where they can land.+ Show Spoiler +
Another reason why they suck at harass(Main reason is their much, much more valuable and much less effective compared to M&M Drops). Defense buildings damage them before they can land. During a battle it´s often hard to land vikings in good spots, especially if you have many vikings. Landing them next to enemy units is often suicide.
3. Terran infrastructure costs a fuckton more than other P and Z and produces units slower. THIS is often overlooked. + Show Spoiler +
Because of addons, a reactor Rax is worth 200/50, a lab Rax 200/25. Likewise are Factorys and Starports 200/150 or 200/125 depending on addon. There is no warpin in 5 seconds and there are no stored larva. Instead, addons take *additional* time to be built. A starport for example takes 50 seconds to build. A reactor takes another 50 seconds. A new reactor starport takes as much time to build as a hatchery(100 seconds). With the addition of Warpgates, Terran is the only race that cannot instantly build a new army. So Terran is much, much slower to change their production. Part of the reason why they have trouble in the lategame.
If Vikings were so awesome, Terrans would still build them before Colossus/Broodlords hit the field. It´s been a long time since I´ve seen that. They are very good in certain situations and obviously against Broodlords and Colossi, but there are also situations were they quite frankly suck. Considering the huge cost to get them - and by that I also mean the number of starports you had to build - they would still suck versus most ground units if they were buffed.
And if Protoss wants to make air units too, they have to pay a hefty 150/150 without the benefit of a Reactor.
You don't want to overmake Vikings not because they suck at what they do, but because they're good for air dominance. If the Terran isn't going air, or the opponent isn't going air, then yea they won't be optimal. Terrans premake Vikings all the time in TvT to maintain air dominance throughout the game.
Vikings already see use in every single matchup almost all the time. They're the least deserving unit for buffs.
On September 23 2012 07:04 Mataza wrote: If Vikings were so awesome, Terrans would still build them before Colossus/Broodlords hit the field. It´s been a long time since I´ve seen that. They are very good in certain situations and obviously against Broodlords and Colossi, but there are also situations were they quite frankly suck.
A Terran player always has to build Vikings. ALWAYS. If you have no insurance against Broods or Colossi, you're going to lose the game. Whether you're going bio or mech, you NEED Viking support. They're also the only AtA unit that Terran has, besides their capital ship (LOL).
On September 23 2012 07:04 Mataza wrote: Ah yes, the eternal miscommunication.
First of all, I´m only randomplayer. So I may not be an expert, but I think I have at least some insight to all races.
1: Vikings are not awesome. They are long ranged and that´s it. + Show Spoiler +
In 1:1 supply they are roughly equal to Corruptors and Phoenixes. So in real games they have a considerable advantage thanks to their range. (Equal sup)They win against BC without Yamato and perform even with Yamato. They lose slightly to Carrier. Each of these units have something besides air ot air that makes them good. Corruptors are never wasted as long as you have a greater spire. Phoenixes are (arguably) good for harrassing and scouting. BC and Carrier are much better versus ground than vikings though they are very hard to produce. All that is awesome about vikings is that they cost 25 less gas than Corruptors and Phoenixes.
2: Grounded Vikings are anecdotally pretty shit. + Show Spoiler +
They are roughly a marauder without stim & conc shell, 1 less armor, can´t be healed, but 50%/300% more expensive out of a more gasheavy building.
2.5: Grounded Vikings can only fight where they can land.+ Show Spoiler +
Another reason why they suck at harass(Main reason is their much, much more valuable and much less effective compared to M&M Drops). Defense buildings damage them before they can land. During a battle it´s often hard to land vikings in good spots, especially if you have many vikings. Landing them next to enemy units is often suicide.
3. Terran infrastructure costs a fuckton more than other P and Z and produces units slower. THIS is often overlooked. + Show Spoiler +
Because of addons, a reactor Rax is worth 200/50, a lab Rax 200/25. Likewise are Factorys and Starports 200/150 or 200/125 depending on addon. There is no warpin in 5 seconds and there are no stored larva. Instead, addons take *additional* time to be built. A starport for example takes 50 seconds to build. A reactor takes another 50 seconds. A new reactor starport takes as much time to build as a hatchery(100 seconds). With the addition of Warpgates, Terran is the only race that cannot instantly build a new army. So Terran is much, much slower to change their production. Part of the reason why they have trouble in the lategame.
If Vikings were so awesome, Terrans would still build them before Colossus/Broodlords hit the field. It´s been a long time since I´ve seen that. They are very good in certain situations and obviously against Broodlords and Colossi, but there are also situations were they quite frankly suck. Considering the huge cost to get them - and by that I also mean the number of starports you had to build - they would still suck versus most ground units if they were buffed.
And if Protoss wants to make air units too, they have to pay a hefty 150/150 without the benefit of a Reactor.
You don't want to overmake Vikings not because they suck at what they do, but because they're good for air dominance. If the Terran isn't going air, or the opponent isn't going air, then yea they won't be optimal. Terrans premake Vikings all the time in TvT to maintain air dominance throughout the game.
Vikings already see use in every single matchup almost all the time. They're the least deserving unit for buffs.
Yes, and Phoenixes with chrono take only 24 seconds to come out. That´s 2 in 48 seconds, while a reactor makes 2 Vikings in 42. Moot point. My point is, many claims in this thread are overblown. Terrans premake Vikings to save Starports *because* you need to wait 50-100 seconds to increase your production. And I never said they´re not used. In TvT airdominance is the current metagame, because 1. Tanks beat tanks if you have air units for vision and 2. the lategame is a transition to air units, be it Raven, Banshee or Battlecruiser. In other MUs they are used to counter the strong long range anti ground units(BL, Colo).
Again, my point is that the Viking is pretty decent, but has no real use outside of being anti air. Also I hate it when people don´t get their facts straight.
On September 23 2012 07:04 Mataza wrote: Ah yes, the eternal miscommunication.
First of all, I´m only randomplayer. So I may not be an expert, but I think I have at least some insight to all races.
1: Vikings are not awesome. They are long ranged and that´s it. + Show Spoiler +
In 1:1 supply they are roughly equal to Corruptors and Phoenixes. So in real games they have a considerable advantage thanks to their range. (Equal sup)They win against BC without Yamato and perform even with Yamato. They lose slightly to Carrier. Each of these units have something besides air ot air that makes them good. Corruptors are never wasted as long as you have a greater spire. Phoenixes are (arguably) good for harrassing and scouting. BC and Carrier are much better versus ground than vikings though they are very hard to produce. All that is awesome about vikings is that they cost 25 less gas than Corruptors and Phoenixes.
2: Grounded Vikings are anecdotally pretty shit. + Show Spoiler +
They are roughly a marauder without stim & conc shell, 1 less armor, can´t be healed, but 50%/300% more expensive out of a more gasheavy building.
2.5: Grounded Vikings can only fight where they can land.+ Show Spoiler +
Another reason why they suck at harass(Main reason is their much, much more valuable and much less effective compared to M&M Drops). Defense buildings damage them before they can land. During a battle it´s often hard to land vikings in good spots, especially if you have many vikings. Landing them next to enemy units is often suicide.
3. Terran infrastructure costs a fuckton more than other P and Z and produces units slower. THIS is often overlooked. + Show Spoiler +
Because of addons, a reactor Rax is worth 200/50, a lab Rax 200/25. Likewise are Factorys and Starports 200/150 or 200/125 depending on addon. There is no warpin in 5 seconds and there are no stored larva. Instead, addons take *additional* time to be built. A starport for example takes 50 seconds to build. A reactor takes another 50 seconds. A new reactor starport takes as much time to build as a hatchery(100 seconds). With the addition of Warpgates, Terran is the only race that cannot instantly build a new army. So Terran is much, much slower to change their production. Part of the reason why they have trouble in the lategame.
If Vikings were so awesome, Terrans would still build them before Colossus/Broodlords hit the field. It´s been a long time since I´ve seen that. They are very good in certain situations and obviously against Broodlords and Colossi, but there are also situations were they quite frankly suck. Considering the huge cost to get them - and by that I also mean the number of starports you had to build - they would still suck versus most ground units if they were buffed.
And if Protoss wants to make air units too, they have to pay a hefty 150/150 without the benefit of a Reactor.
You don't want to overmake Vikings not because they suck at what they do, but because they're good for air dominance. If the Terran isn't going air, or the opponent isn't going air, then yea they won't be optimal. Terrans premake Vikings all the time in TvT to maintain air dominance throughout the game.
Vikings already see use in every single matchup almost all the time. They're the least deserving unit for buffs.
Yes, and Phoenixes with chrono take only 24 seconds to come out. That´s 2 in 48 seconds, while a reactor makes 2 Vikings in 42. Moot point.
It's not a moot point at all. Reactor is 100% uptime with a 100% production boost. Chronoboost is a 50% boost that is not consistent at all. You can't justify buffs for reasons that are untrue. Vikings are readily produceable and have always been.
I think that since vikings are neccesary when using bio or mech, theyll never share mech upgrades.
In niche situations, vikings land in games and it makes all the difference but if you do it wrong they die and you suck. I dont think buffing the viking on ground would buff mech, it would buff terran. And i dont think they need it.
On September 23 2012 07:04 Mataza wrote: Ah yes, the eternal miscommunication.
First of all, I´m only randomplayer. So I may not be an expert, but I think I have at least some insight to all races.
1: Vikings are not awesome. They are long ranged and that´s it. + Show Spoiler +
In 1:1 supply they are roughly equal to Corruptors and Phoenixes. So in real games they have a considerable advantage thanks to their range. (Equal sup)They win against BC without Yamato and perform even with Yamato. They lose slightly to Carrier. Each of these units have something besides air ot air that makes them good. Corruptors are never wasted as long as you have a greater spire. Phoenixes are (arguably) good for harrassing and scouting. BC and Carrier are much better versus ground than vikings though they are very hard to produce. All that is awesome about vikings is that they cost 25 less gas than Corruptors and Phoenixes.
2: Grounded Vikings are anecdotally pretty shit. + Show Spoiler +
They are roughly a marauder without stim & conc shell, 1 less armor, can´t be healed, but 50%/300% more expensive out of a more gasheavy building.
2.5: Grounded Vikings can only fight where they can land.+ Show Spoiler +
Another reason why they suck at harass(Main reason is their much, much more valuable and much less effective compared to M&M Drops). Defense buildings damage them before they can land. During a battle it´s often hard to land vikings in good spots, especially if you have many vikings. Landing them next to enemy units is often suicide.
3. Terran infrastructure costs a fuckton more than other P and Z and produces units slower. THIS is often overlooked. + Show Spoiler +
Because of addons, a reactor Rax is worth 200/50, a lab Rax 200/25. Likewise are Factorys and Starports 200/150 or 200/125 depending on addon. There is no warpin in 5 seconds and there are no stored larva. Instead, addons take *additional* time to be built. A starport for example takes 50 seconds to build. A reactor takes another 50 seconds. A new reactor starport takes as much time to build as a hatchery(100 seconds). With the addition of Warpgates, Terran is the only race that cannot instantly build a new army. So Terran is much, much slower to change their production. Part of the reason why they have trouble in the lategame.
If Vikings were so awesome, Terrans would still build them before Colossus/Broodlords hit the field. It´s been a long time since I´ve seen that. They are very good in certain situations and obviously against Broodlords and Colossi, but there are also situations were they quite frankly suck. Considering the huge cost to get them - and by that I also mean the number of starports you had to build - they would still suck versus most ground units if they were buffed.
And if Protoss wants to make air units too, they have to pay a hefty 150/150 without the benefit of a Reactor.
You don't want to overmake Vikings not because they suck at what they do, but because they're good for air dominance. If the Terran isn't going air, or the opponent isn't going air, then yea they won't be optimal. Terrans premake Vikings all the time in TvT to maintain air dominance throughout the game.
Vikings already see use in every single matchup almost all the time. They're the least deserving unit for buffs.
Yes, and Phoenixes with chrono take only 24 seconds to come out. That´s 2 in 48 seconds, while a reactor makes 2 Vikings in 42. Moot point.
It's not a moot point at all. Reactor is 100% uptime with a 100% production boost. Chronoboost is a 50% boost that is not consistent at all. You can't justify buffs for reasons that are untrue. Vikings are readily produceable and have always been.
Because Phoenixes are considered essential. Because Stargates are more expensive and slower to build than reactor Starports. Sorry you lost me there. Without Chronoboost you still build 2 Phoenixes in 70 seconds. You may not have 100% uptime with chronoboost, but the infrastructure is still a lot more costly. 150/150/60 seconds vs. 200/150/100 seconds. With Chronoboost you almost produce at the same speed. Also don´t forget that addons are obligatory. Terran is balanced around having an addon on every building. I don´t see why we are arguing about this. Yes, Stargate is a lot less viable than Starport. On the other hand terran has only Vikings and Marines as anti air. Nothing is without a tradeoff, so please don´t act like Vikings have some insane advantage except their range.
On September 23 2012 07:04 Mataza wrote: Ah yes, the eternal miscommunication.
First of all, I´m only randomplayer. So I may not be an expert, but I think I have at least some insight to all races.
1: Vikings are not awesome. They are long ranged and that´s it. + Show Spoiler +
In 1:1 supply they are roughly equal to Corruptors and Phoenixes. So in real games they have a considerable advantage thanks to their range. (Equal sup)They win against BC without Yamato and perform even with Yamato. They lose slightly to Carrier. Each of these units have something besides air ot air that makes them good. Corruptors are never wasted as long as you have a greater spire. Phoenixes are (arguably) good for harrassing and scouting. BC and Carrier are much better versus ground than vikings though they are very hard to produce. All that is awesome about vikings is that they cost 25 less gas than Corruptors and Phoenixes.
2: Grounded Vikings are anecdotally pretty shit. + Show Spoiler +
They are roughly a marauder without stim & conc shell, 1 less armor, can´t be healed, but 50%/300% more expensive out of a more gasheavy building.
2.5: Grounded Vikings can only fight where they can land.+ Show Spoiler +
Another reason why they suck at harass(Main reason is their much, much more valuable and much less effective compared to M&M Drops). Defense buildings damage them before they can land. During a battle it´s often hard to land vikings in good spots, especially if you have many vikings. Landing them next to enemy units is often suicide.
3. Terran infrastructure costs a fuckton more than other P and Z and produces units slower. THIS is often overlooked. + Show Spoiler +
Because of addons, a reactor Rax is worth 200/50, a lab Rax 200/25. Likewise are Factorys and Starports 200/150 or 200/125 depending on addon. There is no warpin in 5 seconds and there are no stored larva. Instead, addons take *additional* time to be built. A starport for example takes 50 seconds to build. A reactor takes another 50 seconds. A new reactor starport takes as much time to build as a hatchery(100 seconds). With the addition of Warpgates, Terran is the only race that cannot instantly build a new army. So Terran is much, much slower to change their production. Part of the reason why they have trouble in the lategame.
If Vikings were so awesome, Terrans would still build them before Colossus/Broodlords hit the field. It´s been a long time since I´ve seen that. They are very good in certain situations and obviously against Broodlords and Colossi, but there are also situations were they quite frankly suck. Considering the huge cost to get them - and by that I also mean the number of starports you had to build - they would still suck versus most ground units if they were buffed.
And if Protoss wants to make air units too, they have to pay a hefty 150/150 without the benefit of a Reactor.
You don't want to overmake Vikings not because they suck at what they do, but because they're good for air dominance. If the Terran isn't going air, or the opponent isn't going air, then yea they won't be optimal. Terrans premake Vikings all the time in TvT to maintain air dominance throughout the game.
Vikings already see use in every single matchup almost all the time. They're the least deserving unit for buffs.
Yes, and Phoenixes with chrono take only 24 seconds to come out. That´s 2 in 48 seconds, while a reactor makes 2 Vikings in 42. Moot point.
It's not a moot point at all. Reactor is 100% uptime with a 100% production boost. Chronoboost is a 50% boost that is not consistent at all. You can't justify buffs for reasons that are untrue. Vikings are readily produceable and have always been.
Because Phoenixes are considered essential. Because Stargates are more expensive and slower to build than reactor Starports. Sorry you lost me there. Without Chronoboost you still build 2 Phoenixes in 70 seconds. You may not have 100% uptime with chronoboost, but the infrastructure is still a lot more costly. 150/150/60 seconds vs. 200/150/100 seconds. With Chronoboost you almost produce at the same speed. Also don´t forget that addons are obligatory. Terran is balanced around having an addon on every building. I don´t see why we are arguing about this. Yes, Stargate is a lot less viable than Starport. On the other hand terran has only Vikings and Marines as anti air. Nothing is without a tradeoff, so please don´t act like Vikings have some insane advantage except their range.
Marines and Vikings are arguably the best anti-air in the game though. Terran infrastructure isn't really that much more expensive than Protoss stuff. Robo is roughly the same as Factory. Stargate is roughly the same as Starport. And Gateway is roughly the same as Barracks. Gateway has more units come out of it, but in exchange, less useful units come out of their other buildings.
Protoss is balanced around everything being Chronoboosted. Same issue as being balanced around Reactor and Larva Inject. Vikings don't have an insane advantage, but they don't need buffs. I want Mech to work, but buffing Vikings is not the answer. Bio is fine. That's why I'm arguing this. To argue that Vikings need to be better at ground is like arguing Colossus needs to be better at air. Neither unit needs anything right now if not nerfs.
How about removing that armoured attribute and instead make it light?
It will take far less damage vs immortals/tanks/stalkers/fungal etc + longer viking wars where micro counts + thors can repell vikings so much easier resulting in some more incentives of not massing vikings yourselves.
On September 23 2012 08:09 YyapSsap wrote: How about removing that armoured attribute and instead make it light?
It will take far less damage vs immortals/tanks/stalkers/fungal etc + longer viking wars where micro counts + thors can repell vikings so much easier resulting in some more incentives of not massing vikings yourselves.
On September 23 2012 08:09 YyapSsap wrote: How about removing that armoured attribute and instead make it light?
It will take far less damage vs immortals/tanks/stalkers/fungal etc + longer viking wars where micro counts + thors can repell vikings so much easier resulting in some more incentives of not massing vikings yourselves.
They'll get absolutely crushed by Phoenixes
But who goes phenixes in TvP? maybe it gives the P incentives to get stargate tech? Maybe its a good thing.
On September 23 2012 08:09 YyapSsap wrote: How about removing that armoured attribute and instead make it light?
It will take far less damage vs immortals/tanks/stalkers/fungal etc + longer viking wars where micro counts + thors can repell vikings so much easier resulting in some more incentives of not massing vikings yourselves.
They'll get absolutely crushed by Phoenixes
But who goes phenixes in TvP? maybe it gives the P incentives to get stargate tech? Maybe its a good thing.
People would get phoenixes if they were light though. A few of them could obliterate vikings, giving the colossi free reign.
On September 23 2012 08:09 YyapSsap wrote: How about removing that armoured attribute and instead make it light?
It will take far less damage vs immortals/tanks/stalkers/fungal etc + longer viking wars where micro counts + thors can repell vikings so much easier resulting in some more incentives of not massing vikings yourselves.
They'll get absolutely crushed by Phoenixes
But who goes phenixes in TvP? maybe it gives the P incentives to get stargate tech? Maybe its a good thing.
People would get phoenixes if they were light though. A few of them could obliterate vikings, giving the colossi free reign.
OMG! If vikings were light, I would be so happy as a toss. I would never have to make those crappy stalkers again in PvT!
On September 23 2012 07:04 Mataza wrote: Ah yes, the eternal miscommunication.
First of all, I´m only randomplayer. So I may not be an expert, but I think I have at least some insight to all races.
1: Vikings are not awesome. They are long ranged and that´s it. + Show Spoiler +
In 1:1 supply they are roughly equal to Corruptors and Phoenixes. So in real games they have a considerable advantage thanks to their range. (Equal sup)They win against BC without Yamato and perform even with Yamato. They lose slightly to Carrier. Each of these units have something besides air ot air that makes them good. Corruptors are never wasted as long as you have a greater spire. Phoenixes are (arguably) good for harrassing and scouting. BC and Carrier are much better versus ground than vikings though they are very hard to produce. All that is awesome about vikings is that they cost 25 less gas than Corruptors and Phoenixes.
2: Grounded Vikings are anecdotally pretty shit. + Show Spoiler +
They are roughly a marauder without stim & conc shell, 1 less armor, can´t be healed, but 50%/300% more expensive out of a more gasheavy building.
2.5: Grounded Vikings can only fight where they can land.+ Show Spoiler +
Another reason why they suck at harass(Main reason is their much, much more valuable and much less effective compared to M&M Drops). Defense buildings damage them before they can land. During a battle it´s often hard to land vikings in good spots, especially if you have many vikings. Landing them next to enemy units is often suicide.
3. Terran infrastructure costs a fuckton more than other P and Z and produces units slower. THIS is often overlooked. + Show Spoiler +
Because of addons, a reactor Rax is worth 200/50, a lab Rax 200/25. Likewise are Factorys and Starports 200/150 or 200/125 depending on addon. There is no warpin in 5 seconds and there are no stored larva. Instead, addons take *additional* time to be built. A starport for example takes 50 seconds to build. A reactor takes another 50 seconds. A new reactor starport takes as much time to build as a hatchery(100 seconds). With the addition of Warpgates, Terran is the only race that cannot instantly build a new army. So Terran is much, much slower to change their production. Part of the reason why they have trouble in the lategame.
If Vikings were so awesome, Terrans would still build them before Colossus/Broodlords hit the field. It´s been a long time since I´ve seen that. They are very good in certain situations and obviously against Broodlords and Colossi, but there are also situations were they quite frankly suck. Considering the huge cost to get them - and by that I also mean the number of starports you had to build - they would still suck versus most ground units if they were buffed.
And if Protoss wants to make air units too, they have to pay a hefty 150/150 without the benefit of a Reactor.
You don't want to overmake Vikings not because they suck at what they do, but because they're good for air dominance. If the Terran isn't going air, or the opponent isn't going air, then yea they won't be optimal. Terrans premake Vikings all the time in TvT to maintain air dominance throughout the game.
Vikings already see use in every single matchup almost all the time. They're the least deserving unit for buffs.
Yes, and Phoenixes with chrono take only 24 seconds to come out. That´s 2 in 48 seconds, while a reactor makes 2 Vikings in 42. Moot point.
It's not a moot point at all. Reactor is 100% uptime with a 100% production boost. Chronoboost is a 50% boost that is not consistent at all. You can't justify buffs for reasons that are untrue. Vikings are readily produceable and have always been.
Because Phoenixes are considered essential. Because Stargates are more expensive and slower to build than reactor Starports. Sorry you lost me there. Without Chronoboost you still build 2 Phoenixes in 70 seconds. You may not have 100% uptime with chronoboost, but the infrastructure is still a lot more costly. 150/150/60 seconds vs. 200/150/100 seconds. With Chronoboost you almost produce at the same speed. Also don´t forget that addons are obligatory. Terran is balanced around having an addon on every building. I don´t see why we are arguing about this. Yes, Stargate is a lot less viable than Starport. On the other hand terran has only Vikings and Marines as anti air. Nothing is without a tradeoff, so please don´t act like Vikings have some insane advantage except their range.
Marines and Vikings are arguably the best anti-air in the game though. Terran infrastructure isn't really that much more expensive than Protoss stuff. Robo is roughly the same as Factory. Stargate is roughly the same as Starport. And Gateway is roughly the same as Barracks. Gateway has more units come out of it, but in exchange, less useful units come out of their other buildings.
Protoss is balanced around everything being Chronoboosted. Same issue as being balanced around Reactor and Larva Inject. Vikings don't have an insane advantage, but they don't need buffs. I want Mech to work, but buffing Vikings is not the answer. Bio is fine. That's why I'm arguing this. To argue that Vikings need to be better at ground is like arguing Colossus needs to be better at air. Neither unit needs anything right now if not nerfs.
So yeah, I don´t think they are roughly the same. I don´t think Vikings need a buff. Didn´t say it. I´m a facts person, I only care about how much sense people make. My opinion Vikings are necessary right now and that sucks. They are tied to being the hard counter to Colossi and Broods and can´t be anything else in turn. I just get agitated if people say "I would kill to have this unit as Protoss". See any zerg saying that? No, because they got better units already.
No offense but i think this is straight out retarded, you don't want a unit that can do everything, especially not if that is being one of the best aa units in the game while being a decent ground unit, vikings should be made to counter air not be usefull on the ground aswell cause this would negate any kind of air play from the opponent.
On September 23 2012 07:04 Mataza wrote: Ah yes, the eternal miscommunication.
First of all, I´m only randomplayer. So I may not be an expert, but I think I have at least some insight to all races.
1: Vikings are not awesome. They are long ranged and that´s it. + Show Spoiler +
In 1:1 supply they are roughly equal to Corruptors and Phoenixes. So in real games they have a considerable advantage thanks to their range. (Equal sup)They win against BC without Yamato and perform even with Yamato. They lose slightly to Carrier. Each of these units have something besides air ot air that makes them good. Corruptors are never wasted as long as you have a greater spire. Phoenixes are (arguably) good for harrassing and scouting. BC and Carrier are much better versus ground than vikings though they are very hard to produce. All that is awesome about vikings is that they cost 25 less gas than Corruptors and Phoenixes.
2: Grounded Vikings are anecdotally pretty shit. + Show Spoiler +
They are roughly a marauder without stim & conc shell, 1 less armor, can´t be healed, but 50%/300% more expensive out of a more gasheavy building.
2.5: Grounded Vikings can only fight where they can land.+ Show Spoiler +
Another reason why they suck at harass(Main reason is their much, much more valuable and much less effective compared to M&M Drops). Defense buildings damage them before they can land. During a battle it´s often hard to land vikings in good spots, especially if you have many vikings. Landing them next to enemy units is often suicide.
3. Terran infrastructure costs a fuckton more than other P and Z and produces units slower. THIS is often overlooked. + Show Spoiler +
Because of addons, a reactor Rax is worth 200/50, a lab Rax 200/25. Likewise are Factorys and Starports 200/150 or 200/125 depending on addon. There is no warpin in 5 seconds and there are no stored larva. Instead, addons take *additional* time to be built. A starport for example takes 50 seconds to build. A reactor takes another 50 seconds. A new reactor starport takes as much time to build as a hatchery(100 seconds). With the addition of Warpgates, Terran is the only race that cannot instantly build a new army. So Terran is much, much slower to change their production. Part of the reason why they have trouble in the lategame.
If Vikings were so awesome, Terrans would still build them before Colossus/Broodlords hit the field. It´s been a long time since I´ve seen that. They are very good in certain situations and obviously against Broodlords and Colossi, but there are also situations were they quite frankly suck. Considering the huge cost to get them - and by that I also mean the number of starports you had to build - they would still suck versus most ground units if they were buffed.
And if Protoss wants to make air units too, they have to pay a hefty 150/150 without the benefit of a Reactor.
You don't want to overmake Vikings not because they suck at what they do, but because they're good for air dominance. If the Terran isn't going air, or the opponent isn't going air, then yea they won't be optimal. Terrans premake Vikings all the time in TvT to maintain air dominance throughout the game.
Vikings already see use in every single matchup almost all the time. They're the least deserving unit for buffs.
Yes, and Phoenixes with chrono take only 24 seconds to come out. That´s 2 in 48 seconds, while a reactor makes 2 Vikings in 42. Moot point.
It's not a moot point at all. Reactor is 100% uptime with a 100% production boost. Chronoboost is a 50% boost that is not consistent at all. You can't justify buffs for reasons that are untrue. Vikings are readily produceable and have always been.
Because Phoenixes are considered essential. Because Stargates are more expensive and slower to build than reactor Starports. Sorry you lost me there. Without Chronoboost you still build 2 Phoenixes in 70 seconds. You may not have 100% uptime with chronoboost, but the infrastructure is still a lot more costly. 150/150/60 seconds vs. 200/150/100 seconds. With Chronoboost you almost produce at the same speed. Also don´t forget that addons are obligatory. Terran is balanced around having an addon on every building. I don´t see why we are arguing about this. Yes, Stargate is a lot less viable than Starport. On the other hand terran has only Vikings and Marines as anti air. Nothing is without a tradeoff, so please don´t act like Vikings have some insane advantage except their range.
Marines and Vikings are arguably the best anti-air in the game though. Terran infrastructure isn't really that much more expensive than Protoss stuff. Robo is roughly the same as Factory. Stargate is roughly the same as Starport. And Gateway is roughly the same as Barracks. Gateway has more units come out of it, but in exchange, less useful units come out of their other buildings.
Protoss is balanced around everything being Chronoboosted. Same issue as being balanced around Reactor and Larva Inject. Vikings don't have an insane advantage, but they don't need buffs. I want Mech to work, but buffing Vikings is not the answer. Bio is fine. That's why I'm arguing this. To argue that Vikings need to be better at ground is like arguing Colossus needs to be better at air. Neither unit needs anything right now if not nerfs.
So yeah, I don´t think they are roughly the same. I don´t think Vikings need a buff. Didn´t say it. I´m a facts person, I only care about how much sense people make. My opinion Vikings are necessary right now and that sucks. They are tied to being the hard counter to Colossi and Broods and can´t be anything else in turn. I just get agitated if people say "I would kill to have this unit as Protoss". See any zerg saying that? No, because they got better units already.
You can build and swap tech labs and reactors with any barracks/factory/starport. This is a huge buff from BW where you didn't have interchangeable addons. Pretty much every terran that isn't going for 1/1/1 is going to use their factory to build the reactor for their starport. Just because the longest way is possible, doesn't mean people aren't going to use the shortcuts available to them.
I don't really understand what you mean by the last part of your post either.
On September 23 2012 08:37 Tedde93 wrote: No offense but i think this is straight out retarded, you don't want a unit that can do everything, especially not if that is being one of the best aa units in the game while being a decent ground unit, vikings should be made to counter air not be usefull on the ground aswell cause this would negate any kind of air play from the opponent.
Or just make it have a more specific role when on the ground. I don't know why, but based on the graphics and "feel" of a ground viking, I'd expect it to shred light targets to pieces rapidly, whilst not being super effective against anything with armour on, so I'd love to see it have some bonus damage against light units, whilst making it worse against armoured. Something like 5 (+5 vs light) x2 would be pretty neat. Could also potentially turn them into an alternative to marine drops as harass for a meching player?
Terrans need some late-game buffer against tech-switches, this sounds like as good of an idea as any. I'm a little hesitant to give them ANOTHER good, mobile harass unit though.
On September 23 2012 10:31 ObliviousNA wrote: Terrans need some late-game buffer against tech-switches, this sounds like as good of an idea as any. I'm a little hesitant to give them ANOTHER good, mobile harass unit though.
Thin line to walk thou. They want to avoid having it work in every situtaion
reason they were changed in wol beta, this is not a fix. I remember when people like Namchir would drop 10 of these into your main and it was a huge pain to defend + repel off the frontal assault. Although this was on maps like that one I forget? the 2 mains were in the middle expo's spread out with 2 paths into nat.
On September 23 2012 08:09 YyapSsap wrote: How about removing that armoured attribute and instead make it light?
It will take far less damage vs immortals/tanks/stalkers/fungal etc + longer viking wars where micro counts + thors can repell vikings so much easier resulting in some more incentives of not massing vikings yourselves.
On September 23 2012 08:09 YyapSsap wrote: How about removing that armoured attribute and instead make it light?
It will take far less damage vs immortals/tanks/stalkers/fungal etc + longer viking wars where micro counts + thors can repell vikings so much easier resulting in some more incentives of not massing vikings yourselves.
you want phoenix to destroy vikings quickly?
Maybe phoenixes might need a slight nerf? Of course numbers need to be changed a little.
to be honest i don t think viking ground needs rework/buff the viking is designed to be an antiair unit, and it s the best in the game if you would buff viking ground you would also need to buff gravity spell of phoenix and the corrupter
On September 23 2012 00:48 Piousflea wrote: With all the attention on Tanks and Hellions and Firebattlehellions, you'd think that people would think about one of the other Terran units that has been around for a long time - Ground Vikings.
Ground Vikings are weak. REALLY weak. They weren't always so bad. IIRC at one point in WoL Beta they had 1 Armor and 14 damage and could compete toe-to-toe vs stalkers and hydralisks. Thing is, a usable Ground Viking would actually fill a lot of the holes in HotS Mech.
What do I mean by usable? I think it would be a viable unit with just two changes: - Vikings may use either Mech or Air upgrades, whichever is highest. (this is the big one) - Attack changed from 12 damage to 7x2 damage. This is only a 17% buff against normal units, and not a buff against high-Armor units, but is a 40% buff vs immortal shields.
Why would a usable Ground Viking fit well with Mech play? 1) You'll have a starport anyways, now that medivacs heal your firebattlehellions.
2) Vikings cover the main weakness of mech which is Air.
3) Vikings are amazingly supply-efficient. At 150/75/2 they have a 112.5:1 cost:supply ratio which is higher than anything except spellcasters and Banelings (150:1). HotS mech uses a lot of hellions (50:1) and widow mines (50:1) so you really need a supply-efficient unit to make up the difference.
4) Vikings are surprisingly good against Archons. Throw a ball of ground vikings into a ball of archons in Unit Tester. The viking's fast attack busts through shields while its bulky size and Mechanical nature makes the archon's attack highly ineffective.
With these changes, Ground Vikings would still be fairly weak and not a unit you'd really want to mass, but you could sprinkle a few into that mid-range crescent in between your hellions and tanks. They would do wonders against Archon and Immortal shields, while making you much less nervous about an air switch.
Just a small correction to the OP: Ground Vikings do actually beat speed/range hydralisks in the even supply battle - at least in the 16 vs 16 battle I did twice right now (creep to simulate the speed).
And well, I think there could be some small corrections done to ground viking, but to be honest, there are other units that need a lot of love first, before anyone should consider changing a unit that is being heavily used in nearly every TvT, ZvT and PvT.
On September 23 2012 00:48 Piousflea wrote: With all the attention on Tanks and Hellions and Firebattlehellions, you'd think that people would think about one of the other Terran units that has been around for a long time - Ground Vikings.
Ground Vikings are weak. REALLY weak. They weren't always so bad. IIRC at one point in WoL Beta they had 1 Armor and 14 damage and could compete toe-to-toe vs stalkers and hydralisks. Thing is, a usable Ground Viking would actually fill a lot of the holes in HotS Mech.
What do I mean by usable? I think it would be a viable unit with just two changes: - Vikings may use either Mech or Air upgrades, whichever is highest. (this is the big one) - Attack changed from 12 damage to 7x2 damage. This is only a 17% buff against normal units, and not a buff against high-Armor units, but is a 40% buff vs immortal shields.
Why would a usable Ground Viking fit well with Mech play? 1) You'll have a starport anyways, now that medivacs heal your firebattlehellions.
2) Vikings cover the main weakness of mech which is Air.
3) Vikings are amazingly supply-efficient. At 150/75/2 they have a 112.5:1 cost:supply ratio which is higher than anything except spellcasters and Banelings (150:1). HotS mech uses a lot of hellions (50:1) and widow mines (50:1) so you really need a supply-efficient unit to make up the difference.
4) Vikings are surprisingly good against Archons. Throw a ball of ground vikings into a ball of archons in Unit Tester. The viking's fast attack busts through shields while its bulky size and Mechanical nature makes the archon's attack highly ineffective.
With these changes, Ground Vikings would still be fairly weak and not a unit you'd really want to mass, but you could sprinkle a few into that mid-range crescent in between your hellions and tanks. They would do wonders against Archon and Immortal shields, while making you much less nervous about an air switch.
Just a small correction to the OP: Ground Vikings do actually beat speed/range hydralisks in the even supply battle - at least in the 16 vs 16 battle I did twice right now (creep to simulate the speed).
And well, I think there could be some small corrections done to ground viking, but to be honest, there are other units that need a lot of love first, before anyone should consider changing a unit that is being heavily used in nearly every TvT, ZvT and PvT.
grounded viking cost 150-75 cant hit air, moves 2.25. Its one of most cost inefficent units in the game. It doesnt mean anything, that it can beat hidra who cost less per food and now actually in hots got speed buff, can burrow and hit air.
On September 23 2012 00:48 Piousflea wrote: With all the attention on Tanks and Hellions and Firebattlehellions, you'd think that people would think about one of the other Terran units that has been around for a long time - Ground Vikings.
Ground Vikings are weak. REALLY weak. They weren't always so bad. IIRC at one point in WoL Beta they had 1 Armor and 14 damage and could compete toe-to-toe vs stalkers and hydralisks. Thing is, a usable Ground Viking would actually fill a lot of the holes in HotS Mech.
What do I mean by usable? I think it would be a viable unit with just two changes: - Vikings may use either Mech or Air upgrades, whichever is highest. (this is the big one) - Attack changed from 12 damage to 7x2 damage. This is only a 17% buff against normal units, and not a buff against high-Armor units, but is a 40% buff vs immortal shields.
Why would a usable Ground Viking fit well with Mech play? 1) You'll have a starport anyways, now that medivacs heal your firebattlehellions.
2) Vikings cover the main weakness of mech which is Air.
3) Vikings are amazingly supply-efficient. At 150/75/2 they have a 112.5:1 cost:supply ratio which is higher than anything except spellcasters and Banelings (150:1). HotS mech uses a lot of hellions (50:1) and widow mines (50:1) so you really need a supply-efficient unit to make up the difference.
4) Vikings are surprisingly good against Archons. Throw a ball of ground vikings into a ball of archons in Unit Tester. The viking's fast attack busts through shields while its bulky size and Mechanical nature makes the archon's attack highly ineffective.
With these changes, Ground Vikings would still be fairly weak and not a unit you'd really want to mass, but you could sprinkle a few into that mid-range crescent in between your hellions and tanks. They would do wonders against Archon and Immortal shields, while making you much less nervous about an air switch.
Just a small correction to the OP: Ground Vikings do actually beat speed/range hydralisks in the even supply battle - at least in the 16 vs 16 battle I did twice right now (creep to simulate the speed).
And well, I think there could be some small corrections done to ground viking, but to be honest, there are other units that need a lot of love first, before anyone should consider changing a unit that is being heavily used in nearly every TvT, ZvT and PvT.
grounded viking cost 150-75 cant hit air, moves 2.25. Its one of most cost inefficent units in the game. It doesnt mean anything, that it can beat hidra who cost less per food and now actually in hots got speed buff, can burrow and hit air.
I really don't want to discuss hydra vs viking. I just wanted to point out the mistake that the OP made, as he clearly says that vikings cannot go toe-to-toe with hydras in a battle.
Ground vikings do great for what they are. But I do like the idea of mech getting a rapid fire low damage unit. Of course I also believe a hard hitting single target anti air would be useful. Maybe I just miss the goliath.
You can't have strong ground vikings unless you remove their ability to transform, it's the trade-off you get for having that kind of flexibility in a unit. Imagine killing off all the colossus of a Protoss army, then landing your vikings and killing off all the stalkers because you do decent ground damage, it's too much flexibility. Also Vikings come out too late to allow Terran to transition safely into Mech, so it doesn't solve the problem the Warhound was intended to solve.
A good buff for the viking would be an ground to air attack with small range singletarget and firing both weapons the same time. You can fight of light air units like muta and Phoenix but still need to transform to fight the big air units. And while doing that you tank for your ground units in ground mode. Terran has to be the shooty i solve problems with more gunz army...
On September 23 2012 00:48 Piousflea wrote: With all the attention on Tanks and Hellions and Firebattlehellions, you'd think that people would think about one of the other Terran units that has been around for a long time - Ground Vikings.
Ground Vikings are weak. REALLY weak. They weren't always so bad. IIRC at one point in WoL Beta they had 1 Armor and 14 damage and could compete toe-to-toe vs stalkers and hydralisks. Thing is, a usable Ground Viking would actually fill a lot of the holes in HotS Mech.
What do I mean by usable? I think it would be a viable unit with just two changes: - Vikings may use either Mech or Air upgrades, whichever is highest. (this is the big one) - Attack changed from 12 damage to 7x2 damage. This is only a 17% buff against normal units, and not a buff against high-Armor units, but is a 40% buff vs immortal shields.
Why would a usable Ground Viking fit well with Mech play? 1) You'll have a starport anyways, now that medivacs heal your firebattlehellions.
2) Vikings cover the main weakness of mech which is Air.
3) Vikings are amazingly supply-efficient. At 150/75/2 they have a 112.5:1 cost:supply ratio which is higher than anything except spellcasters and Banelings (150:1). HotS mech uses a lot of hellions (50:1) and widow mines (50:1) so you really need a supply-efficient unit to make up the difference.
4) Vikings are surprisingly good against Archons. Throw a ball of ground vikings into a ball of archons in Unit Tester. The viking's fast attack busts through shields while its bulky size and Mechanical nature makes the archon's attack highly ineffective.
With these changes, Ground Vikings would still be fairly weak and not a unit you'd really want to mass, but you could sprinkle a few into that mid-range crescent in between your hellions and tanks. They would do wonders against Archon and Immortal shields, while making you much less nervous about an air switch.
Just a small correction to the OP: Ground Vikings do actually beat speed/range hydralisks in the even supply battle - at least in the 16 vs 16 battle I did twice right now (creep to simulate the speed).
And well, I think there could be some small corrections done to ground viking, but to be honest, there are other units that need a lot of love first, before anyone should consider changing a unit that is being heavily used in nearly every TvT, ZvT and PvT.
Hmm viking on asault mode definatly is one of the worst ground units around i have to agree. Think their dps or the way the upgrades work is not the main isue though, its pretty decent with 12 and not that bad against immortals with only 2 damage wasted against the shield.Upgrades on ground mode give less then +10% damage each, are nullified by a counter armour upgrade and therefor not essential for vikings imo. Biggest problem i find with landing vikings is that they almost die instantly,landing vikings turns out to be a bad idea 99% of the times you try it.not sure why lol. Their hp is a bit low for their cost, only 125 hp and they count as armourded. This is not so much a problem against zerg but against toss with immortal and to a lesser extend stalker, or terran with tanks and marauder its quiet a disadvantage. Am not sure about blizzards intention with the ground mode btw,maybe their ground mode is only meant as a harras option behind undefended mineral lines, and not so much as an option to use in army battles. To make them more viable on ground overall they should get more hp in my opinnion and maybe change them to non armoured in ground version.
On September 23 2012 21:04 Rassy wrote: Hmm viking on asault mode definatly is one of the worst ground units around i have to agree. Think their dps is not the main isue though, its pretty decent with 12 and not that bad against immortals with only 2 damage wasted against the shield. Biggest problem i find with landing vikings is that they almost die instantly,landing vikings turns out to be a bad idea 99% of the times you try it.not sure why lol. Their hp is a bit low for their cost, only 125 hp and they count as armourded. This is not so much a problem against zerg but against toss with immortal and to a lesser extend stalker its quiet a disadvantage. To make them viable on ground they should get more hp in my opinnion and maybe change them to non armoured in ground version.
either buffing there ground armor or changing armor type or both would be great. Also move speed is also very terrible, they should have something along the line of stalker movespeed on the ground.
I'd definitely be cool with seeing some changes to the Viking. I don't think its nerfs were warranted in the first place, and since then things have been rather dull in comparison to what it was used for prior.
I think endurance/fortitude rather than damage would help it more. Adding damage wouldn't seem to fix anything with it, it can be used to kill immortal shields and plenty of other stuff where its at now. I don't think it should be too powerful of a ground unit considering its proficient in AA and is extremely versatile, but it should definitely be useful as a ground unit; not a waste, last resort, or bm land.
While I agree that ground vikings are weak I don't think buffing them is the right way to go. Vikings are a really cool unit because they are really good in the air but can also be added to the army in a pinch (such as when a hellion runby is being attempted). If they were buffed though you would suddenly have a fast, mobile harassment force that could also kill air units very efficiently, which would be a nightmare when combined with medivac drops and banshees.
I think it's right for you to have to choose, do I take a utility unit like the viking or do I specialise but spend more resources/supply on multiple units. These decisions are what make terran interesting, instead of just having one unit that does everything. Mind you, blizzard might just buff ground vikings for the sake of it XD
Vikings are hands down the best anti air in the game. Their range, damage cost and ease of access is incredible. If they did more damage on ground Terran would never lose late game vs Protoss. Ever.
Even now, you always upgrade ship weapons because of colossi, so you actually have upgrades for them and that's not the issue. They beat stalkers handily and do ok vs archons. Their only flaw is their lack of hit points which is understandable since everything else is superb.
I don't think they require a buff in this department.
I've mentioned it several times before, but giving Viking Assault Mode a greater role in Mech in order to defend vs Chargelots would be preferable to Battle Hellions as things are. Just letting Viking Assault Mode benefit from Vehicle Upgrades is already a step in the right direction, but they could do the same thing with Assault Mode as they did with Battle Hellion Mode and just give the Assault Mode a +50% HP buff.
I Like what people mentioned here about the combined mechanical upgrade for both air and mech, with HOTS out it's something blizzard could mess around with, but i'm not sure it would work out quite right for bc's and banshee's. I think having the viking in ground mode benefit from mech upgrades would be a solid answer to buffing it in ground mode, along with some small tweaking this could be the "warhound" they were looking for, not in a completely OP warhound way like the original hound was, but if tweaked correctly the viking may infact be a solid ground to ground that helps out mech. maybe give it some sort of upgrade, or for that matter, fix the upgrades in the game that are pretty much useless/ seen in maybe 2% of all games played like 250mm Strike cannon, tweaking this upgrade into something mech friendly/usefull and tweaking the viking could perhaps bridge the gap in a TvP mech scenario.
Ground vikings are supposed to be bad. Asking for them to be good is like asking phoenixes to hit ground or mutas to trade evenly with marines. Every unit needs some sort of weakness. A unit that beats everything in the air and is also strong on the ground has no downside for building it, which in turn means there's no decision to make.
On September 23 2012 23:13 MoonCricket wrote: I've mentioned it several times before, but giving Viking Assault Mode a greater role in Mech in order to defend vs Chargelots would be preferable to Battle Hellions as things are. Just letting Viking Assault Mode benefit from Vehicle Upgrades is already a step in the right direction, but they could do the same thing with Assault Mode as they did with Battle Hellion Mode and just give the Assault Mode a +50% HP buff.
This would be ridiculous, Assualt mode already beats stalkers and hydra, if you add 50% hp buff when landed they will beat literally everything except immortals and infestors.
On September 23 2012 22:33 CikaZombi wrote: Vikings are hands down the best anti air in the game. Their range, damage cost and ease of access is incredible. If they did more damage on ground Terran would never lose late game vs Protoss. Ever.
Even now, you always upgrade ship weapons because of colossi, so you actually have upgrades for them and that's not the issue. They beat stalkers handily and do ok vs archons. Their only flaw is their lack of hit points which is understandable since everything else is superb.
I don't think they require a buff in this department.
Vikings do not beat stalkers "handily", nor at all, and their effectiveness against archons is sort of an anomaly, given that the viking doesn't matchup too well against nearly every other protoss ground unit.
On September 23 2012 22:39 Crawdad wrote: Why is everyone judging the ground Viking like it's its own unit? Are we gonna complain about tank mode next?
Why not? Terrans complain about everything else. The next thing you know they'll be complaining about uncloaked banshees being too weak compared to cloaked banshees.
On September 23 2012 01:47 Fig wrote: This is not a good idea. The viking is already the best air superiority unit in the game. It takes out anything armored with ease, as well as anything that is massive, since those air units are all armored too. And it does this from 9 range, at a low unit cost. As a protoss, I would kill for this unit even if it didn't even have a ground mode.
Now you want to buff the ground damage, so that is deals damage pretty well to everything. Vikings already do this, though it may not seem like it, because people hardly ever use them on the ground (since it's air uses are so amazing). It has 12 ground DPS against everything already, which is a bit less than twice that of a stalker (6.9).
The viking is certainly not a unit that needs any more help. Instead you should be focusing on other units that are actually underused.
ground mode vikings are underused, my man. the ONLY time you ever have them on the ground is when you are taken by surprise by a late game tech switch. the argument to give terran a reason to use them on the ground more is a good one imo
The balancing act of colossus vs viking will be totally thrown off by this, because if you overproduce vikings you can drop them to the ground and rip shit up. I remember when vikings beat stalkers in just about every department... thank god those days are over.
On September 24 2012 08:48 Thrasymachus725 wrote: The balancing act of colossus vs viking will be totally thrown off by this, because if you overproduce vikings you can drop them to the ground and rip shit up. I remember when vikings beat stalkers in just about every department... thank god those days are over.
On September 24 2012 08:48 Thrasymachus725 wrote: The balancing act of colossus vs viking will be totally thrown off by this, because if you overproduce vikings you can drop them to the ground and rip shit up. I remember when vikings beat stalkers in just about every department... thank god those days are over.
collussus ruin everything -.-
It definitely seems to. I think the reaver would be stronger... and im not even one of those BW purists that want BW units everywhere. The only return to BW i want is the reaver. Vikings would still have a place, because they can shoot down the shuttle, but would die brutally to scarabs.
On September 24 2012 08:48 Thrasymachus725 wrote: The balancing act of colossus vs viking will be totally thrown off by this, because if you overproduce vikings you can drop them to the ground and rip shit up. I remember when vikings beat stalkers in just about every department... thank god those days are over.
That was my first thought as well. Why would terran make anything but vikings in TvP if they can just one shot all the collosi, and then go down and rape the rest of the protoss force with their extra armor and attack upgrades. They're supposed to be an air force, and the ground thing is just an extra feature kind of like the phoenix lift. It's not supposed to rape everything (as frequently suggested in this thread).
Ground vikings in mech would be interesting, I read David Kim said they want to make mech more mobile, but not only with factory units, maybe ground vikings will be the new warhound
People on here are saying that it will be OP are missing the point. The point is, take a look at when we see ground mode vikings in a dominant nature. (basically anytime you'd see landed vikings in pro games, disregarding after the vikings kill all the collosus or broodlords or other vikings and land because they are flying paperweights) the only one that comes to my mind is to fend off early hellions in early game mech vs mech, or to worker harras that usually ends in the vikings death. the people on here aren't asking for an OP viking that is as strong as a warhound, yes that would be rediculously dumb and op, but rather... a small slight tweak to make it so we actually see the ground mode viking as a more usefull unit. I can't tell you how many times vikings become a 100% required to build unit in a game, and suddenly in about 5 seconds that 100% required to build unit becomes a flying paperweight to an ultralisk tech switch... or a mass zealot warpin...
On September 23 2012 02:26 avilo wrote: This would be a good idea. Vikings on the ground suck right now. I think they originally changed viking armor because...of a terrible map pool and trying to balance the game too quickly.
Ever since then vikings on the ground have been bad.
They actually nerfed Viking ground damage in the beta because TvT was Tank Viking, except nobody landed their Vikings anyway.
I really like the idea of mech upgrades effecting grounded vikings while air upgrades help airborne vikings, and you can make grounded vikings from factories, but require a starport to transform them or use starports to build them already in the air.
so terran would be able to make vikings from factories and starports, and I don't think that's so bad.
While were at it why don't we buff the pheonix so that it can shoot down without having to lift up units so that protoss air will become more viable.... This change would just retarded, you don't want a unit that can do everything, this would just deny any kind of air play from any any of the other races especially if they had extra damage versus light, this wouldn't fix mech it would make mech fukking op against all the races, if you buff the vikings now it will make mech pvt viable perhaps but it will make tvz unbalanced for terran and might even make vikings a viable unit to get even if the opponent isn't going air in tvt.
On September 24 2012 10:02 Zombo Joe wrote: They actually nerfed Viking ground damage in the beta because TvT was Tank Viking, except nobody landed their Vikings anyway.
LOL, everybody landed their Vikings because it was the optimal way to crush your opponent back then.
On September 23 2012 01:47 Fig wrote: This is not a good idea. The viking is already the best air superiority unit in the game. It takes out anything armored with ease, as well as anything that is massive, since those air units are all armored too. And it does this from 9 range, at a low unit cost. As a protoss, I would kill for this unit even if it didn't even have a ground mode.
Now you want to buff the ground damage, so that is deals damage pretty well to everything. Vikings already do this, though it may not seem like it, because people hardly ever use them on the ground (since it's air uses are so amazing). It has 12 ground DPS against everything already, which is a bit less than twice that of a stalker (6.9).
The viking is certainly not a unit that needs any more help. Instead you should be focusing on other units that are actually underused.
ground mode vikings are underused, my man. the ONLY time you ever have them on the ground is when you are taken by surprise by a late game tech switch. the argument to give terran a reason to use them on the ground more is a good one imo
IMO, Ground Vikings are underused because other ground units from the Terran army are the best in the game. They got SCVs, Marines, Marauders, Reapers, Helions, Battle Helions, Tanks, Thors.
There wont be a downside to mass vikings if they did well on the ground too. Unless some other ground unit is nerfed.
The question is not why Ground Vikings are weak. The question is which Terran army would Terrans liked nerfed so the Ground Viking can be buffed?
On September 24 2012 08:48 Thrasymachus725 wrote: The balancing act of colossus vs viking will be totally thrown off by this, because if you overproduce vikings you can drop them to the ground and rip shit up. I remember when vikings beat stalkers in just about every department... thank god those days are over.
collussus ruin everything -.-
It definitely seems to. I think the reaver would be stronger... and im not even one of those BW purists that want BW units everywhere. The only return to BW i want is the reaver. Vikings would still have a place, because they can shoot down the shuttle, but would die brutally to scarabs.
Not only that Vikings are very good vs Void Rays and Carriers Vikings would have their place in all matchups and Reavers would fit just fine. Ground Vikings are not that terrible. But switching the ground viking to favor mech upgrades would make them better I don't know if they would fill the "warhound" role but would be close.
Vikings can attack ground — isn't that good enough? look at zerg — corruptor can't attack ground in any way; at least the phoenix has graviton beam.
Making ground mode vikings stronger offers a real problem where you'll have one unit that can counter anything, be it air units or ground units. vikings are the main anti-air unit for terran, so if they then are also good against ground it'd be pretty bland or even imbalanced.
Ground mode is just a gimmick that gives added-value to the viking; In my opinion it's added-value superior to phoenix's graviton beam or corruptor's corruption. Ground mode vikings don't need to be powerful enough for x, they just need to be able to do damage. In my opinion it's the same sort of deal as infested terrans — a stupid little gimmick that gives added value to the infestor via a terrible and slow ranged unit (personally I'd want it removed from the game though, while not the case with ground-mode viking).
In my opinion the first and/or only changes viking should get is a faster transformation time. I think a faster movement speed but lower range could also be appropriate, but that could possibly mess up the game a bit (would need lots of testing).
On September 24 2012 14:32 Xapti wrote: Vikings can attack ground — isn't that good enough? look at zerg — corruptor can't attack ground in any way; at least the phoenix has graviton beam.
Making ground mode vikings stronger offers a real problem where you'll have one unit that can counter anything, be it air units or ground units. vikings are the main anti-air unit for terran, so if they then are also good against ground it'd be pretty bland or even imbalanced.
Ground mode is just a gimmick that gives added-value to the viking; In my opinion it's added-value superior to phoenix's graviton beam or corruptor's corruption. Ground mode vikings don't need to be powerful enough for x, they just need to be able to do damage. In my opinion it's the same sort of deal as infested terrans — a stupid little gimmick that gives added value to the infestor via a terrible and slow ranged unit (personally I'd want it removed from the game though, while not the case with ground-mode viking).
In my opinion the first and/or only changes viking should get is a faster transformation time. I think a faster movement speed but lower range could also be appropriate, but that could possibly mess up the game a bit (would need lots of testing).
you forgot 1 thing, corruptors morth into bl's. For that only fact corruptors are already better than anything vikings ever was or will be... And infested terrans arent gimmick there dps is out of this world...
On September 24 2012 14:32 Xapti wrote: Vikings can attack ground — isn't that good enough? look at zerg — corruptor can't attack ground in any way; at least the phoenix has graviton beam.
Making ground mode vikings stronger offers a real problem where you'll have one unit that can counter anything, be it air units or ground units. vikings are the main anti-air unit for terran, so if they then are also good against ground it'd be pretty bland or even imbalanced.
Yes, but you and several others come to this thread with this standpoint without understanding of the core problem.
We are not necessarily talking about a big general buff vs ground units making mass viking strats possible. Just some tweaking so that they would fit a natural role in a terran mech composition.
Hellions deal with light units. Tanks deal with armored and low-hp units.
What is left is units like archons and immortals and ultras. If ground vikings were buffed a bit they could actually be good vs these units. Low damage and high rate of fire is perfect vs immortal shields and as long as protoss dont have shield upgrades they wont need any upgrades to do full damage to archons. Maybe not ultras so much, but it would make zerg tech switches less lethal if they could be used to buffer in front of your tanks and thors in case of a BL -> Ultra tech switch.
Together with its anti-air it would be a good unit to have in a mech composition.
It also makes sense logically. There are obvious similarities with the goliath. The viking is the very same unit, except that it needs to lift of in order to hit air and land to hit ground units.
Betavikings are more gas-intensive than stalkers, slightly weaker for cost, and scale just as poorly with upgrades (which aren't shared by any of your core units). They're also built out of a more specialized structure that costs gas to construct.
If Blizzard decided to buff Assault Mode, the Fighter Mode range could be lowered from 9 to 8 to counterbalance if they really wanted to, but that could possibly lead to issues with things like fungals or properly-functioning carriers.
Then again, fungals might get a nerf in the future, considering that Swarm Hosts are now here to serve the role as the mid-game beef that was lacking for zerg pre-infestor buff.
On September 24 2012 15:23 psiANIDe wrote: Ground Vikings would be OP with thia change. They are already amazing anti-air, why do they have to be awesome at ground attack too?
No. Just make them half as strong as Warhounds. They would still be strong
On September 24 2012 14:32 Xapti wrote: Vikings can attack ground — isn't that good enough? look at zerg — corruptor can't attack ground in any way; at least the phoenix has graviton beam.
Making ground mode vikings stronger offers a real problem where you'll have one unit that can counter anything, be it air units or ground units. vikings are the main anti-air unit for terran, so if they then are also good against ground it'd be pretty bland or even imbalanced.
Yes, but you and several others come to this thread with this standpoint without understanding of the core problem.
We are not necessarily talking about a big general buff vs ground units making mass viking strats possible. Just some tweaking so that they would fit a natural role in a terran mech composition.
Hellions deal with light units. Tanks deal with armored and low-hp units.
What is left is units like archons and immortals and ultras. If ground vikings were buffed a bit they could actually be good vs these units. Low damage and high rate of fire is perfect vs immortal shields and as long as protoss dont have shield upgrades they wont need any upgrades to do full damage to archons. Maybe not ultras so much, but it would make zerg tech switches less lethal if they could be used to buffer in front of your tanks and thors in case of a BL -> Ultra tech switch.
Together with its anti-air it would be a good unit to have in a mech composition.
It also makes sense logically. There are obvious similarities with the goliath. The viking is the very same unit, except that it needs to lift of in order to hit air and land to hit ground units.
Umm, aren't thors good at doing lots of damage to single units? I thought that was their 'thang'.
Ahh, I think I see what you're after here. It's a double pronged super buff!
you want and all in one to counter BL and ultra. then you ALSO want an all in 1 counter for colossus and archons and immortals.
Good unit there.
Sorry, you need to actually build other units. I know, it's crazy, but there you go. Against protoss if you get 3 bases get ghosts. Stop arguing, stop looking for a way out of it, you MUST get ghosts. They counter immortals, HT, sentry, archon and also can do a lot of damage. Get fricken ghosts.
Not gonna say what you should be doing in TvZ since i don't know, i play protoss. But it's pretty bloody obvious that if vikings were good vs ultra and BL then the game would be take 3 bases and start massing vikings. Done!
On September 24 2012 14:32 Xapti wrote: Vikings can attack ground — isn't that good enough? look at zerg — corruptor can't attack ground in any way; at least the phoenix has graviton beam.
Making ground mode vikings stronger offers a real problem where you'll have one unit that can counter anything, be it air units or ground units. vikings are the main anti-air unit for terran, so if they then are also good against ground it'd be pretty bland or even imbalanced.
Yes, but you and several others come to this thread with this standpoint without understanding of the core problem.
We are not necessarily talking about a big general buff vs ground units making mass viking strats possible. Just some tweaking so that they would fit a natural role in a terran mech composition.
Hellions deal with light units. Tanks deal with armored and low-hp units.
What is left is units like archons and immortals and ultras. If ground vikings were buffed a bit they could actually be good vs these units. Low damage and high rate of fire is perfect vs immortal shields and as long as protoss dont have shield upgrades they wont need any upgrades to do full damage to archons. Maybe not ultras so much, but it would make zerg tech switches less lethal if they could be used to buffer in front of your tanks and thors in case of a BL -> Ultra tech switch.
Together with its anti-air it would be a good unit to have in a mech composition.
It also makes sense logically. There are obvious similarities with the goliath. The viking is the very same unit, except that it needs to lift of in order to hit air and land to hit ground units.
Umm, aren't thors good at doing lots of damage to single units? I thought that was their 'thang'.
Ahh, I think I see what you're after here. It's a double pronged super buff!
you want and all in one to counter BL and ultra. then you ALSO want an all in 1 counter for colossus and archons and immortals.
Good unit there.
Sorry, you need to actually build other units. I know, it's crazy, but there you go. Against protoss if you get 3 bases get ghosts. Stop arguing, stop looking for a way out of it, you MUST get ghosts. They counter immortals, HT, sentry, archon and also can do a lot of damage. Get fricken ghosts.
Not gonna say what you should be doing in TvZ since i don't know, i play protoss. But it's pretty bloody obvious that if vikings were good vs ultra and BL then the game would be take 3 bases and start massing vikings. Done!
Yes, thors are good vs archons and immortals. But if you have archons you most likely have high templars which negate the thor's 250 mm strike cannon while also taking away a big chunk of their hp. Suddenly they are not so good anymore ....
Ghosts are very good with mech, but it is hard to get the number of ghosts that would be necessary until very late in the game. You need a lot of things other than ghosts. If protoss open with colossus you need to have the vikings.
I wont address your other points as you clearly were twisting my words.
AFAIR Goliaths were used because of their AA abilities, not their ground damage, so if you guys are bringing Goliath into discussion, take this into consideration. If you want Viking to be something else than new Goliath, well, I'd like to see how some hp or armor tweaks would affect Viking play.
On September 24 2012 14:32 Xapti wrote: Vikings can attack ground — isn't that good enough? look at zerg — corruptor can't attack ground in any way; at least the phoenix has graviton beam.
Making ground mode vikings stronger offers a real problem where you'll have one unit that can counter anything, be it air units or ground units. vikings are the main anti-air unit for terran, so if they then are also good against ground it'd be pretty bland or even imbalanced.
Yes, but you and several others come to this thread with this standpoint without understanding of the core problem.
We are not necessarily talking about a big general buff vs ground units making mass viking strats possible. Just some tweaking so that they would fit a natural role in a terran mech composition.
Hellions deal with light units. Tanks deal with armored and low-hp units.
What is left is units like archons and immortals and ultras. If ground vikings were buffed a bit they could actually be good vs these units. Low damage and high rate of fire is perfect vs immortal shields and as long as protoss dont have shield upgrades they wont need any upgrades to do full damage to archons. Maybe not ultras so much, but it would make zerg tech switches less lethal if they could be used to buffer in front of your tanks and thors in case of a BL -> Ultra tech switch.
Together with its anti-air it would be a good unit to have in a mech composition.
It also makes sense logically. There are obvious similarities with the goliath. The viking is the very same unit, except that it needs to lift of in order to hit air and land to hit ground units.
Umm, aren't thors good at doing lots of damage to single units? I thought that was their 'thang'.
Ahh, I think I see what you're after here. It's a double pronged super buff!
you want and all in one to counter BL and ultra. then you ALSO want an all in 1 counter for colossus and archons and immortals.
Good unit there.
Sorry, you need to actually build other units. I know, it's crazy, but there you go. Against protoss if you get 3 bases get ghosts. Stop arguing, stop looking for a way out of it, you MUST get ghosts. They counter immortals, HT, sentry, archon and also can do a lot of damage. Get fricken ghosts.
Not gonna say what you should be doing in TvZ since i don't know, i play protoss. But it's pretty bloody obvious that if vikings were good vs ultra and BL then the game would be take 3 bases and start massing vikings. Done!
Yes, thors are good vs archons and immortals. But if you have archons you most likely have high templars which negate the thor's 250 mm strike cannon while also taking away a big chunk of their hp. Suddenly they are not so good anymore ....
Ghosts are very good with mech, but it is hard to get the number of ghosts that would be necessary until very late in the game. You need a lot of things other than ghosts. If protoss open with colossus you need to have the vikings.
I wont address your other points as you clearly were twisting my words.
How is it twisting your words when your exact words are What is left is units like archons and immortals and ultras. If ground vikings were buffed a bit they could actually be good vs these units. ? It's the logical conclusion and outcome if vikings are good vs those units.
Yes, it's hard to get the 'right number' of ghosts till the late game. Just like it's hard for protoss to get HT with storm, archons, immortals, colossus, charge and blink with their respective upgrades. It's also hard to get a high infestor count, lots of corruptors, spines and broods as well as all melee upgrades and ultra-armour + the bank + larvae so that zerg can do those big tech switches.
It's not meant to be easy to counter everything.
Think about it for a moment. Under what situation would you not just make X number of tanks, Y number of hellions and z number of vikings vs protoss in HotS?
battle hellions crush zealots, tanks destroy sentrys and stalkers, vikings counter everything from a robo (colossus, immortal) or a stargate (vikings are stupidly good vs everything here) as well as archons leaving the only possible problem being storm. 3 units counter everything in the protoss army. That's called insanely OP. Surely even you have to concede how bad this would be.
On September 24 2012 14:32 Xapti wrote: Vikings can attack ground — isn't that good enough? look at zerg — corruptor can't attack ground in any way; at least the phoenix has graviton beam.
Making ground mode vikings stronger offers a real problem where you'll have one unit that can counter anything, be it air units or ground units. vikings are the main anti-air unit for terran, so if they then are also good against ground it'd be pretty bland or even imbalanced.
Yes, but you and several others come to this thread with this standpoint without understanding of the core problem.
We are not necessarily talking about a big general buff vs ground units making mass viking strats possible. Just some tweaking so that they would fit a natural role in a terran mech composition.
Hellions deal with light units. Tanks deal with armored and low-hp units.
What is left is units like archons and immortals and ultras. If ground vikings were buffed a bit they could actually be good vs these units. Low damage and high rate of fire is perfect vs immortal shields and as long as protoss dont have shield upgrades they wont need any upgrades to do full damage to archons. Maybe not ultras so much, but it would make zerg tech switches less lethal if they could be used to buffer in front of your tanks and thors in case of a BL -> Ultra tech switch.
Together with its anti-air it would be a good unit to have in a mech composition.
It also makes sense logically. There are obvious similarities with the goliath. The viking is the very same unit, except that it needs to lift of in order to hit air and land to hit ground units.
Umm, aren't thors good at doing lots of damage to single units? I thought that was their 'thang'.
Ahh, I think I see what you're after here. It's a double pronged super buff!
you want and all in one to counter BL and ultra. then you ALSO want an all in 1 counter for colossus and archons and immortals.
Good unit there.
Sorry, you need to actually build other units. I know, it's crazy, but there you go. Against protoss if you get 3 bases get ghosts. Stop arguing, stop looking for a way out of it, you MUST get ghosts. They counter immortals, HT, sentry, archon and also can do a lot of damage. Get fricken ghosts.
Not gonna say what you should be doing in TvZ since i don't know, i play protoss. But it's pretty bloody obvious that if vikings were good vs ultra and BL then the game would be take 3 bases and start massing vikings. Done!
Yes, thors are good vs archons and immortals. But if you have archons you most likely have high templars which negate the thor's 250 mm strike cannon while also taking away a big chunk of their hp. Suddenly they are not so good anymore ....
Ghosts are very good with mech, but it is hard to get the number of ghosts that would be necessary until very late in the game. You need a lot of things other than ghosts. If protoss open with colossus you need to have the vikings.
I wont address your other points as you clearly were twisting my words.
How is it twisting your words when your exact words are What is left is units like archons and immortals and ultras. If ground vikings were buffed a bit they could actually be good vs these units. ? It's the logical conclusion and outcome if vikings are good vs those units.
Yes, it's hard to get the 'right number' of ghosts till the late game. Just like it's hard for protoss to get HT with storm, archons, immortals, colossus, charge and blink with their respective upgrades. It's also hard to get a high infestor count, lots of corruptors, spines and broods as well as all melee upgrades and ultra-armour + the bank + larvae so that zerg can do those big tech switches.
It's not meant to be easy to counter everything.
There is a difference between a unit that is good vs another unit and a unit that hardcounters a unit.
I didn't say that vikings on the ground should hardcounter immortals, archons and ultras. I merely said that it would be good if they could fill the roll of a decent damage unit with low damage but high rate of fire so that mech has a unit that doesn't suck balls vs immortals.
Neither did I mean that it should counter ultras. It would just be good if it could do a slightly better job of buffering in front of tanks in case of a quick BL -> ultra switch.
So what is the logical conclusion I should draw from your posts ?
On September 24 2012 14:32 Xapti wrote: Vikings can attack ground — isn't that good enough? look at zerg — corruptor can't attack ground in any way; at least the phoenix has graviton beam.
Making ground mode vikings stronger offers a real problem where you'll have one unit that can counter anything, be it air units or ground units. vikings are the main anti-air unit for terran, so if they then are also good against ground it'd be pretty bland or even imbalanced.
Yes, but you and several others come to this thread with this standpoint without understanding of the core problem.
We are not necessarily talking about a big general buff vs ground units making mass viking strats possible. Just some tweaking so that they would fit a natural role in a terran mech composition.
Hellions deal with light units. Tanks deal with armored and low-hp units.
What is left is units like archons and immortals and ultras. If ground vikings were buffed a bit they could actually be good vs these units. Low damage and high rate of fire is perfect vs immortal shields and as long as protoss dont have shield upgrades they wont need any upgrades to do full damage to archons. Maybe not ultras so much, but it would make zerg tech switches less lethal if they could be used to buffer in front of your tanks and thors in case of a BL -> Ultra tech switch.
Together with its anti-air it would be a good unit to have in a mech composition.
It also makes sense logically. There are obvious similarities with the goliath. The viking is the very same unit, except that it needs to lift of in order to hit air and land to hit ground units.
Umm, aren't thors good at doing lots of damage to single units? I thought that was their 'thang'.
Ahh, I think I see what you're after here. It's a double pronged super buff!
you want and all in one to counter BL and ultra. then you ALSO want an all in 1 counter for colossus and archons and immortals.
Good unit there.
Sorry, you need to actually build other units. I know, it's crazy, but there you go. Against protoss if you get 3 bases get ghosts. Stop arguing, stop looking for a way out of it, you MUST get ghosts. They counter immortals, HT, sentry, archon and also can do a lot of damage. Get fricken ghosts.
Not gonna say what you should be doing in TvZ since i don't know, i play protoss. But it's pretty bloody obvious that if vikings were good vs ultra and BL then the game would be take 3 bases and start massing vikings. Done!
Yes, thors are good vs archons and immortals. But if you have archons you most likely have high templars which negate the thor's 250 mm strike cannon while also taking away a big chunk of their hp. Suddenly they are not so good anymore ....
Ghosts are very good with mech, but it is hard to get the number of ghosts that would be necessary until very late in the game. You need a lot of things other than ghosts. If protoss open with colossus you need to have the vikings.
I wont address your other points as you clearly were twisting my words.
How is it twisting your words when your exact words are What is left is units like archons and immortals and ultras. If ground vikings were buffed a bit they could actually be good vs these units. ? It's the logical conclusion and outcome if vikings are good vs those units.
Yes, it's hard to get the 'right number' of ghosts till the late game. Just like it's hard for protoss to get HT with storm, archons, immortals, colossus, charge and blink with their respective upgrades. It's also hard to get a high infestor count, lots of corruptors, spines and broods as well as all melee upgrades and ultra-armour + the bank + larvae so that zerg can do those big tech switches.
It's not meant to be easy to counter everything.
There is a difference between a unit that is good vs another unit and a unit that hardcounters a unit.
I didn't say that vikings on the ground should hardcounter immortals, archons and ultras. I merely said that it would be good if they could fill the roll of a decent damage unit with low damage but high rate of fire so that mech has a unit that doesn't suck balls vs immortals.
Neither did I mean that it should counter ultras. It would just be good if it could do a slightly better job of buffering in front of tanks in case of a quick BL -> ultra switch.
So what is the logical conclusion I should draw from your posts ?
i think ppl are overestimating of how good vikings was. Infact even with 14ground damage instead of 12, they where total shit. In tvt we used to see like 5tanks and 30viking rainbow fights, it was like that not because vikings were good, it was because players were bad, you can put 20damage viking, and they would still get raped by bio ball/toss/zerg army, though they would actually be a threat on the ground, right now viking threat on the ground is about the same as sentry without energy.
If they dont want to change viking damage/armor values, they should change it switch animation, movespeed on the ground to be alot faster, so that fast viking raids would actually be a threat. I remember when D.B first introduced them, he showed a clip of how land in base and harras it and shit. How often you see that in real games? never, because sending vikings to harras is suicide for them, because they are slow as shit, takes 200hours to switch form and then have movespeed of 2.25, what can you actually kill with them? You only send them to suicide mission when they are totaly useles(aka no air units), so can maybe kill with them something, srsly 150-75 unit that is useless, basic marine has dps of viking on the ground and marine cost 4x less, have better movespeed and so on. Even if they would buff vikings hardcore you would never see them on mass, since they are so bad on land that normal units like bio balls or tank/thor army are 3-4times better atm.
So my suggestion is actually buff they movespeed on the ground + transformation speed, this would make kinda ok harras unit for mech armies, which doesnt have marine/marauders balls, to take out bases(helions can only kill workers.) To make it fair, maybe give it an upgrade for this improvement in Fussion core.
On September 24 2012 14:32 Xapti wrote: Vikings can attack ground — isn't that good enough? look at zerg — corruptor can't attack ground in any way; at least the phoenix has graviton beam.
Making ground mode vikings stronger offers a real problem where you'll have one unit that can counter anything, be it air units or ground units. vikings are the main anti-air unit for terran, so if they then are also good against ground it'd be pretty bland or even imbalanced.
Yes, but you and several others come to this thread with this standpoint without understanding of the core problem.
We are not necessarily talking about a big general buff vs ground units making mass viking strats possible. Just some tweaking so that they would fit a natural role in a terran mech composition.
Hellions deal with light units. Tanks deal with armored and low-hp units.
What is left is units like archons and immortals and ultras. If ground vikings were buffed a bit they could actually be good vs these units. Low damage and high rate of fire is perfect vs immortal shields and as long as protoss dont have shield upgrades they wont need any upgrades to do full damage to archons. Maybe not ultras so much, but it would make zerg tech switches less lethal if they could be used to buffer in front of your tanks and thors in case of a BL -> Ultra tech switch.
Together with its anti-air it would be a good unit to have in a mech composition.
It also makes sense logically. There are obvious similarities with the goliath. The viking is the very same unit, except that it needs to lift of in order to hit air and land to hit ground units.
Umm, aren't thors good at doing lots of damage to single units? I thought that was their 'thang'.
Ahh, I think I see what you're after here. It's a double pronged super buff!
you want and all in one to counter BL and ultra. then you ALSO want an all in 1 counter for colossus and archons and immortals.
Good unit there.
Sorry, you need to actually build other units. I know, it's crazy, but there you go. Against protoss if you get 3 bases get ghosts. Stop arguing, stop looking for a way out of it, you MUST get ghosts. They counter immortals, HT, sentry, archon and also can do a lot of damage. Get fricken ghosts.
Not gonna say what you should be doing in TvZ since i don't know, i play protoss. But it's pretty bloody obvious that if vikings were good vs ultra and BL then the game would be take 3 bases and start massing vikings. Done!
Yes, thors are good vs archons and immortals. But if you have archons you most likely have high templars which negate the thor's 250 mm strike cannon while also taking away a big chunk of their hp. Suddenly they are not so good anymore ....
Ghosts are very good with mech, but it is hard to get the number of ghosts that would be necessary until very late in the game. You need a lot of things other than ghosts. If protoss open with colossus you need to have the vikings.
I wont address your other points as you clearly were twisting my words.
How is it twisting your words when your exact words are What is left is units like archons and immortals and ultras. If ground vikings were buffed a bit they could actually be good vs these units. ? It's the logical conclusion and outcome if vikings are good vs those units.
Yes, it's hard to get the 'right number' of ghosts till the late game. Just like it's hard for protoss to get HT with storm, archons, immortals, colossus, charge and blink with their respective upgrades. It's also hard to get a high infestor count, lots of corruptors, spines and broods as well as all melee upgrades and ultra-armour + the bank + larvae so that zerg can do those big tech switches.
It's not meant to be easy to counter everything.
There is a difference between a unit that is good vs another unit and a unit that hardcounters a unit.
I didn't say that vikings on the ground should hardcounter immortals, archons and ultras. I merely said that it would be good if they could fill the roll of a decent damage unit with low damage but high rate of fire so that mech has a unit that doesn't suck balls vs immortals.
Neither did I mean that it should counter ultras. It would just be good if it could do a slightly better job of buffering in front of tanks in case of a quick BL -> ultra switch.
So what is the logical conclusion I should draw from your posts ?
i think ppl are overestimating of how good vikings was. Infact even with 14ground damage instead of 12, they where total shit. In tvt we used to see like 5tanks and 30viking rainbow fights, it was like that not because vikings were good, it was because players were bad, you can put 20damage viking, and they would still get raped by bio ball/toss/zerg army, though they would actually be a threat on the ground, right now viking threat on the ground is about the same as sentry without energy.
If they dont want to change viking damage/armor values, they should change it switch animation, movespeed on the ground to be alot faster, so that fast viking raids would actually be a threat. I remember when D.B first introduced them, he showed a clip of how land in base and harras it and shit. How often you see that in real games? never, because sending vikings to harras is suicide for them, because they are slow as shit, takes 200hours to switch form and then have movespeed of 2.25, what can you actually kill with them? You only send them to suicide mission when they are totaly useles(aka no air units), so can maybe kill with them something, srsly 150-75 unit that is useless, basic marine has dps of viking on the ground and marine cost 4x less, have better movespeed and so on. Even if they would buff vikings hardcore you would never see them on mass, since they are so bad on land that normal units like bio balls or tank/thor army are 3-4times better atm.
So my suggestion is actually buff they movespeed on the ground + transformation speed, this would make kinda ok harras unit for mech armies, which doesnt have marine/marauders balls, to take out bases(helions can only kill workers.) To make it fair, maybe give it an upgrade for this improvement in Fussion core.
People did a lot of Warhound drops...
Seriously, if Blizzard was considering to add a unit as strong as the Warhound then the very least they could do is to buff viking ground mode slightly. I agree with the speed, that could introduce some cool pull back and lift/land micro in battles.
Seems to me that changing the ground mode weapons follow ground mode upgrades is a very simple way of buffing them which has no balance implications for any other situation except for using vikings with mech. To me it would also make sense to change it to 7*2 ground attack instead of 14*1, again, no difference except in mech play. I have a hard time believing anyone can really be upset with that change. +1 armor would be nice, but I think it'ld be interesting to see those two suggestions get implemented before deciding.
I would like to see a change in this direction and what is even cooler is that the viking micro, air to ground-ground to air, would increase when vikings are more prevalent on the ground as a fighting unit.
On September 24 2012 14:32 Xapti wrote: Vikings can attack ground — isn't that good enough? look at zerg — corruptor can't attack ground in any way; at least the phoenix has graviton beam.
Making ground mode vikings stronger offers a real problem where you'll have one unit that can counter anything, be it air units or ground units. vikings are the main anti-air unit for terran, so if they then are also good against ground it'd be pretty bland or even imbalanced.
Yes, but you and several others come to this thread with this standpoint without understanding of the core problem.
We are not necessarily talking about a big general buff vs ground units making mass viking strats possible. Just some tweaking so that they would fit a natural role in a terran mech composition.
Hellions deal with light units. Tanks deal with armored and low-hp units.
What is left is units like archons and immortals and ultras. If ground vikings were buffed a bit they could actually be good vs these units. Low damage and high rate of fire is perfect vs immortal shields and as long as protoss dont have shield upgrades they wont need any upgrades to do full damage to archons. Maybe not ultras so much, but it would make zerg tech switches less lethal if they could be used to buffer in front of your tanks and thors in case of a BL -> Ultra tech switch.
Together with its anti-air it would be a good unit to have in a mech composition.
It also makes sense logically. There are obvious similarities with the goliath. The viking is the very same unit, except that it needs to lift of in order to hit air and land to hit ground units.
Umm, aren't thors good at doing lots of damage to single units? I thought that was their 'thang'.
Ahh, I think I see what you're after here. It's a double pronged super buff!
you want and all in one to counter BL and ultra. then you ALSO want an all in 1 counter for colossus and archons and immortals.
Good unit there.
Sorry, you need to actually build other units. I know, it's crazy, but there you go. Against protoss if you get 3 bases get ghosts. Stop arguing, stop looking for a way out of it, you MUST get ghosts. They counter immortals, HT, sentry, archon and also can do a lot of damage. Get fricken ghosts.
Not gonna say what you should be doing in TvZ since i don't know, i play protoss. But it's pretty bloody obvious that if vikings were good vs ultra and BL then the game would be take 3 bases and start massing vikings. Done!
Yes, thors are good vs archons and immortals. But if you have archons you most likely have high templars which negate the thor's 250 mm strike cannon while also taking away a big chunk of their hp. Suddenly they are not so good anymore ....
Ghosts are very good with mech, but it is hard to get the number of ghosts that would be necessary until very late in the game. You need a lot of things other than ghosts. If protoss open with colossus you need to have the vikings.
I wont address your other points as you clearly were twisting my words.
How is it twisting your words when your exact words are What is left is units like archons and immortals and ultras. If ground vikings were buffed a bit they could actually be good vs these units. ? It's the logical conclusion and outcome if vikings are good vs those units.
Yes, it's hard to get the 'right number' of ghosts till the late game. Just like it's hard for protoss to get HT with storm, archons, immortals, colossus, charge and blink with their respective upgrades. It's also hard to get a high infestor count, lots of corruptors, spines and broods as well as all melee upgrades and ultra-armour + the bank + larvae so that zerg can do those big tech switches.
It's not meant to be easy to counter everything.
There is a difference between a unit that is good vs another unit and a unit that hardcounters a unit.
I didn't say that vikings on the ground should hardcounter immortals, archons and ultras. I merely said that it would be good if they could fill the roll of a decent damage unit with low damage but high rate of fire so that mech has a unit that doesn't suck balls vs immortals.
Neither did I mean that it should counter ultras. It would just be good if it could do a slightly better job of buffering in front of tanks in case of a quick BL -> ultra switch.
So what is the logical conclusion I should draw from your posts ?
i think ppl are overestimating of how good vikings was. Infact even with 14ground damage instead of 12, they where total shit. In tvt we used to see like 5tanks and 30viking rainbow fights, it was like that not because vikings were good, it was because players were bad, you can put 20damage viking, and they would still get raped by bio ball/toss/zerg army, though they would actually be a threat on the ground, right now viking threat on the ground is about the same as sentry without energy.
If they dont want to change viking damage/armor values, they should change it switch animation, movespeed on the ground to be alot faster, so that fast viking raids would actually be a threat. I remember when D.B first introduced them, he showed a clip of how land in base and harras it and shit. How often you see that in real games? never, because sending vikings to harras is suicide for them, because they are slow as shit, takes 200hours to switch form and then have movespeed of 2.25, what can you actually kill with them? You only send them to suicide mission when they are totaly useles(aka no air units), so can maybe kill with them something, srsly 150-75 unit that is useless, basic marine has dps of viking on the ground and marine cost 4x less, have better movespeed and so on. Even if they would buff vikings hardcore you would never see them on mass, since they are so bad on land that normal units like bio balls or tank/thor army are 3-4times better atm.
So my suggestion is actually buff they movespeed on the ground + transformation speed, this would make kinda ok harras unit for mech armies, which doesnt have marine/marauders balls, to take out bases(helions can only kill workers.) To make it fair, maybe give it an upgrade for this improvement in Fussion core.
You've hit the nail on the head and at the same time are completely wrong.
You are totally correct that if anything a 'buff' to vikings should be to their taking off and landing speed. They are too slow to be used as a harassing unit or even an emergency buffer unit. This makes any landing suicidal plus if the harassed player is paying attention at all the workers will just run before the vikings even get a shot off. I would buff their landing time so they 'crunch' into the ground and keep their taking off speed to same so it's a risky move, but one that might actually bag you some workers or slow down a bunch of ultras for a sec.
Where you are wrong. Viking ground dps is 12 (+1) with range 6. That makes them TWICE as powerful in pure dps as a stalker. On top of that Vikings are the cheapest air unit for GAS in the game and are fantastic at their primary role of AA, especially with thor or marine support. Their ground speed is the same as an immortal, they are mostly terrible because they get in each others way. It's not like they are 'Queen-off-creep' slow.
On September 24 2012 14:32 Xapti wrote: Vikings can attack ground — isn't that good enough? look at zerg — corruptor can't attack ground in any way; at least the phoenix has graviton beam.
Making ground mode vikings stronger offers a real problem where you'll have one unit that can counter anything, be it air units or ground units. vikings are the main anti-air unit for terran, so if they then are also good against ground it'd be pretty bland or even imbalanced.
Yes, but you and several others come to this thread with this standpoint without understanding of the core problem.
We are not necessarily talking about a big general buff vs ground units making mass viking strats possible. Just some tweaking so that they would fit a natural role in a terran mech composition.
Hellions deal with light units. Tanks deal with armored and low-hp units.
What is left is units like archons and immortals and ultras. If ground vikings were buffed a bit they could actually be good vs these units. Low damage and high rate of fire is perfect vs immortal shields and as long as protoss dont have shield upgrades they wont need any upgrades to do full damage to archons. Maybe not ultras so much, but it would make zerg tech switches less lethal if they could be used to buffer in front of your tanks and thors in case of a BL -> Ultra tech switch.
Together with its anti-air it would be a good unit to have in a mech composition.
It also makes sense logically. There are obvious similarities with the goliath. The viking is the very same unit, except that it needs to lift of in order to hit air and land to hit ground units.
Umm, aren't thors good at doing lots of damage to single units? I thought that was their 'thang'.
Ahh, I think I see what you're after here. It's a double pronged super buff!
you want and all in one to counter BL and ultra. then you ALSO want an all in 1 counter for colossus and archons and immortals.
Good unit there.
Sorry, you need to actually build other units. I know, it's crazy, but there you go. Against protoss if you get 3 bases get ghosts. Stop arguing, stop looking for a way out of it, you MUST get ghosts. They counter immortals, HT, sentry, archon and also can do a lot of damage. Get fricken ghosts.
Not gonna say what you should be doing in TvZ since i don't know, i play protoss. But it's pretty bloody obvious that if vikings were good vs ultra and BL then the game would be take 3 bases and start massing vikings. Done!
Yes, thors are good vs archons and immortals. But if you have archons you most likely have high templars which negate the thor's 250 mm strike cannon while also taking away a big chunk of their hp. Suddenly they are not so good anymore ....
Ghosts are very good with mech, but it is hard to get the number of ghosts that would be necessary until very late in the game. You need a lot of things other than ghosts. If protoss open with colossus you need to have the vikings.
I wont address your other points as you clearly were twisting my words.
How is it twisting your words when your exact words are What is left is units like archons and immortals and ultras. If ground vikings were buffed a bit they could actually be good vs these units. ? It's the logical conclusion and outcome if vikings are good vs those units.
Yes, it's hard to get the 'right number' of ghosts till the late game. Just like it's hard for protoss to get HT with storm, archons, immortals, colossus, charge and blink with their respective upgrades. It's also hard to get a high infestor count, lots of corruptors, spines and broods as well as all melee upgrades and ultra-armour + the bank + larvae so that zerg can do those big tech switches.
It's not meant to be easy to counter everything.
There is a difference between a unit that is good vs another unit and a unit that hardcounters a unit.
I didn't say that vikings on the ground should hardcounter immortals, archons and ultras. I merely said that it would be good if they could fill the roll of a decent damage unit with low damage but high rate of fire so that mech has a unit that doesn't suck balls vs immortals.
Neither did I mean that it should counter ultras. It would just be good if it could do a slightly better job of buffering in front of tanks in case of a quick BL -> ultra switch.
So what is the logical conclusion I should draw from your posts ?
i think ppl are overestimating of how good vikings was. Infact even with 14ground damage instead of 12, they where total shit. In tvt we used to see like 5tanks and 30viking rainbow fights, it was like that not because vikings were good, it was because players were bad, you can put 20damage viking, and they would still get raped by bio ball/toss/zerg army, though they would actually be a threat on the ground, right now viking threat on the ground is about the same as sentry without energy.
If they dont want to change viking damage/armor values, they should change it switch animation, movespeed on the ground to be alot faster, so that fast viking raids would actually be a threat. I remember when D.B first introduced them, he showed a clip of how land in base and harras it and shit. How often you see that in real games? never, because sending vikings to harras is suicide for them, because they are slow as shit, takes 200hours to switch form and then have movespeed of 2.25, what can you actually kill with them? You only send them to suicide mission when they are totaly useles(aka no air units), so can maybe kill with them something, srsly 150-75 unit that is useless, basic marine has dps of viking on the ground and marine cost 4x less, have better movespeed and so on. Even if they would buff vikings hardcore you would never see them on mass, since they are so bad on land that normal units like bio balls or tank/thor army are 3-4times better atm.
So my suggestion is actually buff they movespeed on the ground + transformation speed, this would make kinda ok harras unit for mech armies, which doesnt have marine/marauders balls, to take out bases(helions can only kill workers.) To make it fair, maybe give it an upgrade for this improvement in Fussion core.
You've hit the nail on the head and at the same time are completely wrong.
You are totally correct that if anything a 'buff' to vikings should be to their taking off and landing speed. They are too slow to be used as a harassing unit or even an emergency buffer unit. This makes any landing suicidal plus if the harassed player is paying attention at all the workers will just run before the vikings even get a shot off. I would buff their landing time so they 'crunch' into the ground and keep their taking off speed to same so it's a risky move, but one that might actually bag you some workers or slow down a bunch of ultras for a sec.
Where you are wrong. Viking ground dps is 12 (+1) with range 6. That makes them TWICE as powerful in pure dps as a stalker. On top of that Vikings are the cheapest air unit for GAS in the game and are fantastic at their primary role of AA, especially with thor or marine support. Their ground speed is the same as an immortal, they are mostly terrible because they get in each others way. It's not like they are 'Queen-off-creep' slow.
its not only about dps, stalkers have blink and good ms can shoot air and dont need to switch to air mode to do that, not only that you can insta reinforce them with pylon from wg(this act this makes them abit weaker, than they should have been for balance reasons), they also have more hp and do extra damage to heavy, we have seen mass stalkers armies with blink, do great even vs mmm armies.
On September 24 2012 14:32 Xapti wrote: Vikings can attack ground — isn't that good enough? look at zerg — corruptor can't attack ground in any way; at least the phoenix has graviton beam.
Making ground mode vikings stronger offers a real problem where you'll have one unit that can counter anything, be it air units or ground units. vikings are the main anti-air unit for terran, so if they then are also good against ground it'd be pretty bland or even imbalanced.
Ground mode is just a gimmick that gives added-value to the viking; In my opinion it's added-value superior to phoenix's graviton beam or corruptor's corruption. Ground mode vikings don't need to be powerful enough for x, they just need to be able to do damage. In my opinion it's the same sort of deal as infested terrans — a stupid little gimmick that gives added value to the infestor via a terrible and slow ranged unit (personally I'd want it removed from the game though, while not the case with ground-mode viking).
In my opinion the first and/or only changes viking should get is a faster transformation time. I think a faster movement speed but lower range could also be appropriate, but that could possibly mess up the game a bit (would need lots of testing).
you forgot 1 thing, corruptors morth into bl's. For that only fact corruptors are already better than anything vikings ever was or will be... And infested terrans arent gimmick there dps is out of this world...
LOL id GLADLY trade corruptors for vikings, vikings are so much better than corruptors at AA...........
Vikings are already the bet AA unit in the game, giving them a stronger ground attack would make them too much of a counter to all units, especially against toss
On September 24 2012 14:32 Xapti wrote: Vikings can attack ground — isn't that good enough? look at zerg — corruptor can't attack ground in any way; at least the phoenix has graviton beam.
Making ground mode vikings stronger offers a real problem where you'll have one unit that can counter anything, be it air units or ground units. vikings are the main anti-air unit for terran, so if they then are also good against ground it'd be pretty bland or even imbalanced.
Yes, but you and several others come to this thread with this standpoint without understanding of the core problem.
We are not necessarily talking about a big general buff vs ground units making mass viking strats possible. Just some tweaking so that they would fit a natural role in a terran mech composition.
Hellions deal with light units. Tanks deal with armored and low-hp units.
What is left is units like archons and immortals and ultras. If ground vikings were buffed a bit they could actually be good vs these units. Low damage and high rate of fire is perfect vs immortal shields and as long as protoss dont have shield upgrades they wont need any upgrades to do full damage to archons. Maybe not ultras so much, but it would make zerg tech switches less lethal if they could be used to buffer in front of your tanks and thors in case of a BL -> Ultra tech switch.
Together with its anti-air it would be a good unit to have in a mech composition.
It also makes sense logically. There are obvious similarities with the goliath. The viking is the very same unit, except that it needs to lift of in order to hit air and land to hit ground units.
Umm, aren't thors good at doing lots of damage to single units? I thought that was their 'thang'.
Ahh, I think I see what you're after here. It's a double pronged super buff!
you want and all in one to counter BL and ultra. then you ALSO want an all in 1 counter for colossus and archons and immortals.
Good unit there.
Sorry, you need to actually build other units. I know, it's crazy, but there you go. Against protoss if you get 3 bases get ghosts. Stop arguing, stop looking for a way out of it, you MUST get ghosts. They counter immortals, HT, sentry, archon and also can do a lot of damage. Get fricken ghosts.
Not gonna say what you should be doing in TvZ since i don't know, i play protoss. But it's pretty bloody obvious that if vikings were good vs ultra and BL then the game would be take 3 bases and start massing vikings. Done!
Yes, thors are good vs archons and immortals. But if you have archons you most likely have high templars which negate the thor's 250 mm strike cannon while also taking away a big chunk of their hp. Suddenly they are not so good anymore ....
Ghosts are very good with mech, but it is hard to get the number of ghosts that would be necessary until very late in the game. You need a lot of things other than ghosts. If protoss open with colossus you need to have the vikings.
I wont address your other points as you clearly were twisting my words.
How is it twisting your words when your exact words are What is left is units like archons and immortals and ultras. If ground vikings were buffed a bit they could actually be good vs these units. ? It's the logical conclusion and outcome if vikings are good vs those units.
Yes, it's hard to get the 'right number' of ghosts till the late game. Just like it's hard for protoss to get HT with storm, archons, immortals, colossus, charge and blink with their respective upgrades. It's also hard to get a high infestor count, lots of corruptors, spines and broods as well as all melee upgrades and ultra-armour + the bank + larvae so that zerg can do those big tech switches.
It's not meant to be easy to counter everything.
There is a difference between a unit that is good vs another unit and a unit that hardcounters a unit.
I didn't say that vikings on the ground should hardcounter immortals, archons and ultras. I merely said that it would be good if they could fill the roll of a decent damage unit with low damage but high rate of fire so that mech has a unit that doesn't suck balls vs immortals.
Neither did I mean that it should counter ultras. It would just be good if it could do a slightly better job of buffering in front of tanks in case of a quick BL -> ultra switch.
So what is the logical conclusion I should draw from your posts ?
i think ppl are overestimating of how good vikings was. Infact even with 14ground damage instead of 12, they where total shit. In tvt we used to see like 5tanks and 30viking rainbow fights, it was like that not because vikings were good, it was because players were bad, you can put 20damage viking, and they would still get raped by bio ball/toss/zerg army, though they would actually be a threat on the ground, right now viking threat on the ground is about the same as sentry without energy.
If they dont want to change viking damage/armor values, they should change it switch animation, movespeed on the ground to be alot faster, so that fast viking raids would actually be a threat. I remember when D.B first introduced them, he showed a clip of how land in base and harras it and shit. How often you see that in real games? never, because sending vikings to harras is suicide for them, because they are slow as shit, takes 200hours to switch form and then have movespeed of 2.25, what can you actually kill with them? You only send them to suicide mission when they are totaly useles(aka no air units), so can maybe kill with them something, srsly 150-75 unit that is useless, basic marine has dps of viking on the ground and marine cost 4x less, have better movespeed and so on. Even if they would buff vikings hardcore you would never see them on mass, since they are so bad on land that normal units like bio balls or tank/thor army are 3-4times better atm.
So my suggestion is actually buff they movespeed on the ground + transformation speed, this would make kinda ok harras unit for mech armies, which doesnt have marine/marauders balls, to take out bases(helions can only kill workers.) To make it fair, maybe give it an upgrade for this improvement in Fussion core.
You've hit the nail on the head and at the same time are completely wrong.
You are totally correct that if anything a 'buff' to vikings should be to their taking off and landing speed. They are too slow to be used as a harassing unit or even an emergency buffer unit. This makes any landing suicidal plus if the harassed player is paying attention at all the workers will just run before the vikings even get a shot off. I would buff their landing time so they 'crunch' into the ground and keep their taking off speed to same so it's a risky move, but one that might actually bag you some workers or slow down a bunch of ultras for a sec.
Where you are wrong. Viking ground dps is 12 (+1) with range 6. That makes them TWICE as powerful in pure dps as a stalker. On top of that Vikings are the cheapest air unit for GAS in the game and are fantastic at their primary role of AA, especially with thor or marine support. Their ground speed is the same as an immortal, they are mostly terrible because they get in each others way. It's not like they are 'Queen-off-creep' slow.
its not only about dps, stalkers have blink and good ms can shoot air and dont need to switch to air mode to do that, not only that you can insta reinforce them with pylon from wg(this act this makes them abit weaker, than they should have been for balance reasons), they also have more hp and do extra damage to heavy, we have seen mass stalkers armies with blink, do great even vs mmm armies.
Yeah, I agree with you.
Also, with the "That makes them TWICE as powerful" part you are the one who is wrong. Stalkers do 10 damage with a +4 bonus to armored with a cooldown of 1.44s. Vikings do 12 damage with 1s cooldown.
Stalker dps vs armored is 14/1.44 = 9.7222... Stalker dps vs armored is 10/1.44 = 6.9444... Viking dps is trivially = 12.
12/9.7222... = 1.2343... 12/6.9444... = 1.7280...
So vikings are 23% stronger vs armored and 73% stronger vs non-armored units assuming no upgrades.
Your argumentation is immature, narrow minded and lacks nuance because you take things out of their context and twist and bend facts to fit your theories. You also spread false information and refer to it as facts.
We get that your standpoint is that no terran units should ever be considered for a buff. But what are you doing in this thread where we try to come up with constructive ways to slightly modify a terran unit so that it could to some extent function a bit like how the warhound was supposed to ?
A slightly buffed viking will not be nearly as bad as the Warhound was.
On September 23 2012 00:48 Piousflea wrote: With all the attention on Tanks and Hellions and Firebattlehellions, you'd think that people would think about one of the other Terran units that has been around for a long time - Ground Vikings.
Ground Vikings are weak. REALLY weak. They weren't always so bad. IIRC at one point in WoL Beta they had 1 Armor and 14 damage and could compete toe-to-toe vs stalkers and hydralisks. Thing is, a usable Ground Viking would actually fill a lot of the holes in HotS Mech.
What do I mean by usable? I think it would be a viable unit with just two changes: - Vikings may use either Mech or Air upgrades, whichever is highest. (this is the big one) - Attack changed from 12 damage to 7x2 damage. This is only a 17% buff against normal units, and not a buff against high-Armor units, but is a 40% buff vs immortal shields.
Why would a usable Ground Viking fit well with Mech play? 1) You'll have a starport anyways, now that medivacs heal your firebattlehellions.
2) Vikings cover the main weakness of mech which is Air.
3) Vikings are amazingly supply-efficient. At 150/75/2 they have a 112.5:1 cost:supply ratio which is higher than anything except spellcasters and Banelings (150:1). HotS mech uses a lot of hellions (50:1) and widow mines (50:1) so you really need a supply-efficient unit to make up the difference.
4) Vikings are surprisingly good against Archons. Throw a ball of ground vikings into a ball of archons in Unit Tester. The viking's fast attack busts through shields while its bulky size and Mechanical nature makes the archon's attack highly ineffective.
With these changes, Ground Vikings would still be fairly weak and not a unit you'd really want to mass, but you could sprinkle a few into that mid-range crescent in between your hellions and tanks. They would do wonders against Archon and Immortal shields, while making you much less nervous about an air switch.
The issue is that bio is too good - not that mech is bad. I'm amazed how gluttonous terrans are. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Imagine if I was asking for a phoenix to have the ability to morph into a ground form and be able to go toe to toe with stalkers, all while keeping great air superiority? Sounds absurd? It is.
In any case, you guys already got widow mines being seriously op just because you couldn't figure out how to use them effectively in the first two weeks of beta. Come release, those things are going to be seriously op. The other races practically need detection everywhere, and one slip up means a mineral line you just transferred to at your third is gone. Your big units are gone, and packs of small units (due to the new aoe being huge) are gone.
God forbid you have to make ghosts to beat out t2 units... Reminds me of how Protoss need to make templars to beat your t1.5 units.
On September 23 2012 00:48 Piousflea wrote: With all the attention on Tanks and Hellions and Firebattlehellions, you'd think that people would think about one of the other Terran units that has been around for a long time - Ground Vikings.
Ground Vikings are weak. REALLY weak. They weren't always so bad. IIRC at one point in WoL Beta they had 1 Armor and 14 damage and could compete toe-to-toe vs stalkers and hydralisks. Thing is, a usable Ground Viking would actually fill a lot of the holes in HotS Mech.
What do I mean by usable? I think it would be a viable unit with just two changes: - Vikings may use either Mech or Air upgrades, whichever is highest. (this is the big one) - Attack changed from 12 damage to 7x2 damage. This is only a 17% buff against normal units, and not a buff against high-Armor units, but is a 40% buff vs immortal shields.
Why would a usable Ground Viking fit well with Mech play? 1) You'll have a starport anyways, now that medivacs heal your firebattlehellions.
2) Vikings cover the main weakness of mech which is Air.
3) Vikings are amazingly supply-efficient. At 150/75/2 they have a 112.5:1 cost:supply ratio which is higher than anything except spellcasters and Banelings (150:1). HotS mech uses a lot of hellions (50:1) and widow mines (50:1) so you really need a supply-efficient unit to make up the difference.
4) Vikings are surprisingly good against Archons. Throw a ball of ground vikings into a ball of archons in Unit Tester. The viking's fast attack busts through shields while its bulky size and Mechanical nature makes the archon's attack highly ineffective.
With these changes, Ground Vikings would still be fairly weak and not a unit you'd really want to mass, but you could sprinkle a few into that mid-range crescent in between your hellions and tanks. They would do wonders against Archon and Immortal shields, while making you much less nervous about an air switch.
The issue is that bio is too good - not that mech is bad. I'm amazed how gluttonous terrans are. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Imagine if I was asking for a phoenix to have the ability to morph into a ground form and be able to go toe to toe with stalkers, all while keeping great air superiority? Sounds absurd? It is.
In any case, you guys already got widow mines being seriously op just because you couldn't figure out how to use them effectively in the first two weeks of beta. Come release, those things are going to be seriously op. The other races practically need detection everywhere, and one slip up means a mineral line you just transferred to at your third is gone. Your big units are gone, and packs of small units (due to the new aoe being huge) are gone.
God forbid you have to make ghosts to beat out t2 units... Reminds me of how Protoss need to make templars to beat your t1.5 units.
actually pheonix dont need to land to kill ground units, they just pick them up. And strangly pheonixes are kinda good vs stalkers to. I would bet they do better agains stalkers than vikings. Also you can actually harras with them, yes they lose coruptors, but so do vikings.
With all the attention on Tanks and Hellions and Firebattlehellions, you'd think that people would think about one of the other Terran units that has been around for a long time - Ground Vikings.
Ground Vikings are weak. REALLY weak. They weren't always so bad. IIRC at one point in WoL Beta they had 1 Armor and 14 damage and could compete toe-to-toe vs stalkers and hydralisks. Thing is, a usable Ground Viking would actually fill a lot of the holes in HotS Mech.
What do I mean by usable? I think it would be a viable unit with just two changes: - Vikings may use either Mech or Air upgrades, whichever is highest. (this is the big one) - Attack changed from 12 damage to 7x2 damage. This is only a 17% buff against normal units, and not a buff against high-Armor units, but is a 40% buff vs immortal shields.
For consistency it should use the upgrades depending on which mode. Air mode --> air upgrade, ground mode --> ground upgrades.
Even if blizzard doesn't revamp the viking as you proposed they should consider a mech unit with higher attack rate versus damage to mitigate immortal shields, (Probably remade warhound/thor) tanks and hellions are not to good at powering through immortals. Only thors do okay in small numbers.
Why would a usable Ground Viking fit well with Mech play? 1) You'll have a starport anyways, now that medivacs heal your firebattlehellions.
2) Vikings cover the main weakness of mech which is Air.
3) Vikings are amazingly supply-efficient. At 150/75/2 they have a 112.5:1 cost:supply ratio which is higher than anything except spellcasters and Banelings (150:1). HotS mech uses a lot of hellions (50:1) and widow mines (50:1) so you really need a supply-efficient unit to make up the difference.
4) Vikings are surprisingly good against Archons. Throw a ball of ground vikings into a ball of archons in Unit Tester. The viking's fast attack busts through shields while its bulky size and Mechanical nature makes the archon's attack highly ineffective.
With these changes, Ground Vikings would still be fairly weak and not a unit you'd really want to mass, but you could sprinkle a few into that mid-range crescent in between your hellions and tanks. They would do wonders against Archon and Immortal shields, while making you much less nervous about an air switch.
I don't think blizz will revamp vikings because they do not want to stire up their balancing from wol, they just want to make their new units balanced with the wol units.
I don't think blizz will revamp vikings because they do not want to stire up their balancing from wol, they just want to make their new units balanced with the wol units.
Sorry but that's impossible. You can't just balance the HoTS units, you need to balance the old units to work with the new, not the other way around.
I don't think blizz will revamp vikings because they do not want to stire up their balancing from wol, they just want to make their new units balanced with the wol units.
Sorry but that's impossible. You can't just balance the HoTS units, you need to balance the old units to work with the new, not the other way around.
Sure you can. Swarm host brings no massive complains at the moment. If battle-cruiser and raven buffs are now considered bugs then that means blizzard will attempt to make as few changes to existing units as possible. Most likely they'll prefer to leave HotS content on the margin of usability rather then start messing with already existing WoL units.
Viking are like shiter versions of goliaths. I say increase the ground attack of the viking bit a slight amount. Also, the viking's ground attack should be determined by the mech attack upgrade.
They should also allow ground vikings to be made from factory with a star port requirement
Even if they did buff the viking ground damage by a small amount, it wouldn't fix the mech problem. All it would do, is make Mechs anti-air far too powerful. Immortals tear through vikings in any amount without even batting an eye and chargelot archon would still rip them to shreds.
On September 25 2012 00:23 Thrasymachus725 wrote: Even if they did buff the viking ground damage by a small amount, it wouldn't fix the mech problem. All it would do, is make Mechs anti-air far too powerful. Immortals tear through vikings in any amount without even batting an eye and chargelot archon would still rip them to shreds.
they should change viking to light, it is a fragile unit after all. Might have to make mods for air to even it out against other air units. ground vikings being complimented with battle hellions and tanks can take on zealots and archons decently.
I don't think blizz will revamp vikings because they do not want to stire up their balancing from wol, they just want to make their new units balanced with the wol units.
Sorry but that's impossible. You can't just balance the HoTS units, you need to balance the old units to work with the new, not the other way around.
Well, first you can explain why it is impossible?
If swarm host is imbalanced they nerf it instead of buffing wol units. Buffing the wol units could cause some 'balance' issues where it was a 'balanced' situation before so they have to rework even further, and that just take up time. Which lead to the logical conclusion that they balance the hots units to fit in with the wol units and not the other way around. It saves time to balance new units and not the old. Doing the other way around would mean reworking the game and reworking stuff is for pre-alpha/alpha now it is beta so they focus on 'balance'.
All the major changes to existing units came pre-alpha/alpha (battlehellions, ultracharge) such feature is up for balance testing in beta if the features/units make the game imbalanced they scrap them. Blizz would not change the other units to make those features balanced. They even scrapped warhound because they realized 'we can not balanced this unit we have to rework it'.
On September 25 2012 00:23 Thrasymachus725 wrote: Even if they did buff the viking ground damage by a small amount, it wouldn't fix the mech problem. All it would do, is make Mechs anti-air far too powerful. Immortals tear through vikings in any amount without even batting an eye and chargelot archon would still rip them to shreds.
they should change viking to light, it is a fragile unit after all. Might have to make mods for air to even it out against other air units. ground vikings being complimented with battle hellions and tanks can take on zealots and archons decently.
Rofl, yes please do that... Phoenix don't destroy them enough as is. Also, banelings should blast through them AND battlehellions on the ground. Not to mention hellions need to burn through them like butter.
Why do you want the viking to be light? So they can eat Immortal shots? You have the hellbat for that...
On September 23 2012 02:20 Fig wrote: The problem I would say, is that many terran units are very specialized with what they do. Units like the Viking/Banshee/Marauder have such high DPS in their strong area because they are supposed to do one thing really well. The viking ground mode is basically just a little bonus for them, to increase their versatility a bit, like the phoenix's graviton beam.
It would be fine to make them more of an all-around unit by making the ground attack more useful, but you would have to nerf their already very strong air-to-air weapon.
Vikings strong air-to-air and their weak air-to-ground don't have anything in common in ingame situations. They're used for completely different purposes, or rather in the case of ground vikings, very rarely.
If the air move of vikings are fine, but their ground mode is shit, you don't nerf their air mode and buff their ground mode, because that would simply reverse the situation. Terran needs an anti-air and vikings fill that role fine. If you give them a better ground mode on the expense of their current AA they'll just have a new set of problems instead.
Also, graviton beam is used all the time on phoenixes, ground mode on vikings, not as much.
I don't think blizz will revamp vikings because they do not want to stire up their balancing from wol, they just want to make their new units balanced with the wol units.
Sorry but that's impossible. You can't just balance the HoTS units, you need to balance the old units to work with the new, not the other way around.
Sure you can. Swarm host brings no massive complains at the moment. If battle-cruiser and raven buffs are now considered bugs then that means blizzard will attempt to make as few changes to existing units as possible. Most likely they'll prefer to leave HotS content on the margin of usability rather then start messing with already existing WoL units.
I wouldn't be too sure about that. They did say, they consider changing WoL units, but for the next weeks, they want to focus on the HotS units. Also they said, that it is kind of stupid that the carrier was the only unit that was gone from HotS beta, so they might just keep it in for now, as they want to focus on the new units. + Show Spoiler +
Rock: The Carrier is in. We brought it back for several reasons. The biggest reason was that it was currently the only unit still removed from the expansion. Back when I had this crazy plan that we would "cut units and add new ones" we cut a bunch of units.
Over time this plan did not work out. Cut units worked there way back into the mix and finally the only unit that was still cut was the Carrier. It seems weird to cut only one unit from one race. So it's back in. And it's staying. We should have put it back before the beta started but we didn't and the community reminded us how important this was.
Rock: We're seeing some community discussion on units that we shipped with Wings of Liberty. Examples include:
Carrier Thor Void Ray Ghost While we are very willing to change these units down the road we are not focused on them for the next few weeks. We are very interested in what kind of strategies we are introducing with the new beta units as well as what types of balance problems we are creating.
If you ask me, at least some of the BC, Raven changes will return later on to get tested (just not before the HotS units are somewhat complete) and there is also the semi-confirmation that the carrier will get changed. (can't find it right now. Some reddit post, that is a copy from a DK statement in the battle.net "pro forum") I think they make a valid point with this. The 1.00 version of the beta was basically Terrans playing around with BCs and Ravens and it's really hard for them to get feedback on the new stuff like that, if all comments on the forums are just about mass Ravens and no carriers. So, if they want to change that, they can still do so later on, but right now it would be interesting to know what spells the oracle should have and how powerful widow mines roughly have to be.
On September 24 2012 21:19 1yzarc1 wrote: Vikings are already the bet AA unit in the game, giving them a stronger ground attack would make them too much of a counter to all units, especially against toss
I think this is pretty head on accurate. Thinking about PvT with better vikings just makes me cringe. You would basically see viking packs sniping colossus, then landing and together with the bio army just wipe out every Protoss unit in seconds.
I do have to admit that making the ground Viking more powerful does change the balance of air Vikings. Right now, air Vikings generally win against equal cost of any air unit in the game. (Phoenix's and corruptors fight them to a draw toe to toe, but Vikings have a huge range advantage)
The reason that you often see Vikings lose against corruptors isn't just infestors, although that's a big part of it. It's also that Zerg can over-build corruptors without worrying that they'll have a bunch of useless units. Once the air has been cleaned up, any excess corruptors can morph into BLs. On the other hand a Terran cannot over-build Vikings because he could be left with an army that will lose to straight up ling-festor. If excess Vikings were reasonably able to fight lings, Terrans could build far less tanks and afford far more Vikings. You could argue in favor of decreasing Viking air damage if ground was stronger. (note - decrease its damage, NOT its range. 9 range is the only thing that even gives them a chance vs infestors)
Vikings should NOT be light and should NOT beat ultralisks or immortals in an a-move fight. One unit should not counter every unit in the game. (colossi, BLs and BCs already being very important counters) However, I think the Vike could have a significantly buffed ground mode without being OP. The point isn't that you should be able to beat Protoss with nothing but Vikings and Tanks. The point is that after your Vikings kill some colossi or BLs, the possibility of landing and fighting on the ground should be a realistic threat rather than a joke.
Despite what some people have said, it's absolutely false that vikings will ever beat stalkers 1v1, either in the current game or even with some buffs. For starters, in the current meta game Stalkers will always have an upgrade advantage over Vikings. It's +2 stalkers vs +0 Vikings for much of the game, or +3 vs +1. That's why it really makes sense to allow ground Vikings to use mech upgrades. Vikings in a bio army would be much weaker (rightly so) than Vikings in a mech army.
Even with equal upgrade Vikings: Stalker: 9 hits (12.96s) to kill Viking Viking: 14 hits (14s) to kill Stalker At 7x2 damage: 13 hits (13s) to kill Stalker Given that a Viking costs 150% as much gas as a Stalker, and the stalker can Blink backward and regenerate shields, it's not even close matchup. Equal gas of stalkers and Vikings are an absolute massacre, as are stalkers with micro.
^Yes, stalkers can blink away and regenerate their shields, but what's stopping terran from repairing their vikings? And what's scarier is that shields don't regen in combat while T can repair in combat.
On September 24 2012 14:32 Xapti wrote: Vikings can attack ground — isn't that good enough? look at zerg — corruptor can't attack ground in any way; at least the phoenix has graviton beam.
Making ground mode vikings stronger offers a real problem where you'll have one unit that can counter anything, be it air units or ground units. vikings are the main anti-air unit for terran, so if they then are also good against ground it'd be pretty bland or even imbalanced.
Yes, but you and several others come to this thread with this standpoint without understanding of the core problem.
We are not necessarily talking about a big general buff vs ground units making mass viking strats possible. Just some tweaking so that they would fit a natural role in a terran mech composition.
Hellions deal with light units. Tanks deal with armored and low-hp units.
What is left is units like archons and immortals and ultras. If ground vikings were buffed a bit they could actually be good vs these units. Low damage and high rate of fire is perfect vs immortal shields and as long as protoss dont have shield upgrades they wont need any upgrades to do full damage to archons. Maybe not ultras so much, but it would make zerg tech switches less lethal if they could be used to buffer in front of your tanks and thors in case of a BL -> Ultra tech switch.
Together with its anti-air it would be a good unit to have in a mech composition.
It also makes sense logically. There are obvious similarities with the goliath. The viking is the very same unit, except that it needs to lift of in order to hit air and land to hit ground units.
Umm, aren't thors good at doing lots of damage to single units? I thought that was their 'thang'.
Ahh, I think I see what you're after here. It's a double pronged super buff!
you want and all in one to counter BL and ultra. then you ALSO want an all in 1 counter for colossus and archons and immortals.
Good unit there.
Sorry, you need to actually build other units. I know, it's crazy, but there you go. Against protoss if you get 3 bases get ghosts. Stop arguing, stop looking for a way out of it, you MUST get ghosts. They counter immortals, HT, sentry, archon and also can do a lot of damage. Get fricken ghosts.
Not gonna say what you should be doing in TvZ since i don't know, i play protoss. But it's pretty bloody obvious that if vikings were good vs ultra and BL then the game would be take 3 bases and start massing vikings. Done!
Yes, thors are good vs archons and immortals. But if you have archons you most likely have high templars which negate the thor's 250 mm strike cannon while also taking away a big chunk of their hp. Suddenly they are not so good anymore ....
Ghosts are very good with mech, but it is hard to get the number of ghosts that would be necessary until very late in the game. You need a lot of things other than ghosts. If protoss open with colossus you need to have the vikings.
I wont address your other points as you clearly were twisting my words.
How is it twisting your words when your exact words are What is left is units like archons and immortals and ultras. If ground vikings were buffed a bit they could actually be good vs these units. ? It's the logical conclusion and outcome if vikings are good vs those units.
Yes, it's hard to get the 'right number' of ghosts till the late game. Just like it's hard for protoss to get HT with storm, archons, immortals, colossus, charge and blink with their respective upgrades. It's also hard to get a high infestor count, lots of corruptors, spines and broods as well as all melee upgrades and ultra-armour + the bank + larvae so that zerg can do those big tech switches.
It's not meant to be easy to counter everything.
There is a difference between a unit that is good vs another unit and a unit that hardcounters a unit.
I didn't say that vikings on the ground should hardcounter immortals, archons and ultras. I merely said that it would be good if they could fill the roll of a decent damage unit with low damage but high rate of fire so that mech has a unit that doesn't suck balls vs immortals.
Neither did I mean that it should counter ultras. It would just be good if it could do a slightly better job of buffering in front of tanks in case of a quick BL -> ultra switch.
So what is the logical conclusion I should draw from your posts ?
i think ppl are overestimating of how good vikings was. Infact even with 14ground damage instead of 12, they where total shit. In tvt we used to see like 5tanks and 30viking rainbow fights, it was like that not because vikings were good, it was because players were bad, you can put 20damage viking, and they would still get raped by bio ball/toss/zerg army, though they would actually be a threat on the ground, right now viking threat on the ground is about the same as sentry without energy.
If they dont want to change viking damage/armor values, they should change it switch animation, movespeed on the ground to be alot faster, so that fast viking raids would actually be a threat. I remember when D.B first introduced them, he showed a clip of how land in base and harras it and shit. How often you see that in real games? never, because sending vikings to harras is suicide for them, because they are slow as shit, takes 200hours to switch form and then have movespeed of 2.25, what can you actually kill with them? You only send them to suicide mission when they are totaly useles(aka no air units), so can maybe kill with them something, srsly 150-75 unit that is useless, basic marine has dps of viking on the ground and marine cost 4x less, have better movespeed and so on. Even if they would buff vikings hardcore you would never see them on mass, since they are so bad on land that normal units like bio balls or tank/thor army are 3-4times better atm.
So my suggestion is actually buff they movespeed on the ground + transformation speed, this would make kinda ok harras unit for mech armies, which doesnt have marine/marauders balls, to take out bases(helions can only kill workers.) To make it fair, maybe give it an upgrade for this improvement in Fussion core.
You've hit the nail on the head and at the same time are completely wrong.
You are totally correct that if anything a 'buff' to vikings should be to their taking off and landing speed. They are too slow to be used as a harassing unit or even an emergency buffer unit. This makes any landing suicidal plus if the harassed player is paying attention at all the workers will just run before the vikings even get a shot off. I would buff their landing time so they 'crunch' into the ground and keep their taking off speed to same so it's a risky move, but one that might actually bag you some workers or slow down a bunch of ultras for a sec.
Where you are wrong. Viking ground dps is 12 (+1) with range 6. That makes them TWICE as powerful in pure dps as a stalker. On top of that Vikings are the cheapest air unit for GAS in the game and are fantastic at their primary role of AA, especially with thor or marine support. Their ground speed is the same as an immortal, they are mostly terrible because they get in each others way. It's not like they are 'Queen-off-creep' slow.
its not only about dps, stalkers have blink and good ms can shoot air and dont need to switch to air mode to do that, not only that you can insta reinforce them with pylon from wg(this act this makes them abit weaker, than they should have been for balance reasons), they also have more hp and do extra damage to heavy, we have seen mass stalkers armies with blink, do great even vs mmm armies.
Yeah, I agree with you.
Also, with the "That makes them TWICE as powerful" part you are the one who is wrong. Stalkers do 10 damage with a +4 bonus to armored with a cooldown of 1.44s. Vikings do 12 damage with 1s cooldown.
Stalker dps vs armored is 14/1.44 = 9.7222... Stalker dps vs armored is 10/1.44 = 6.9444... Viking dps is trivially = 12.
12/9.7222... = 1.2343... 12/6.9444... = 1.7280...
So vikings are 23% stronger vs armored and 73% stronger vs non-armored units assuming no upgrades.
Your argumentation is immature, narrow minded and lacks nuance because you take things out of their context and twist and bend facts to fit your theories. You also spread false information and refer to it as facts.
We get that your standpoint is that no terran units should ever be considered for a buff. But what are you doing in this thread where we try to come up with constructive ways to slightly modify a terran unit so that it could to some extent function a bit like how the warhound was supposed to ?
A slightly buffed viking will not be nearly as bad as the Warhound was.
I wasn't comparing stalkers to vikings, i was comparing stalker dps to viking dps in response to right now viking threat on the ground is about the same as sentry without energy. when in fact they have higher dps than a stalker. Obviously a stalker is better than a landed viking, especially with blink.
What part of You are totally correct that if anything a 'buff' to vikings should be to their taking off and landing speed relates to We get that your standpoint is that no terran units should ever be considered for a buff.? Half my reply was saying that viking landing speed should be buffed to see how that changes the feel of the unit as a harassing option or an emergency deployment unit.
That's a buff. Right there, BUFF.
However you need to keep in mind that a big part of the mind games going on in PvT is to try and trick the terran into making too many vikings!
You fake out massing colossus while instead getting HT / storm. If Vikings are 'good' on the ground then what happens is the terran builds 12 vikings regardless. That way it doesn't matter how many colossus they have, even if it's 1 you pick it off in 1 volley, land and start tearing apart the gateway army. That's not an interesting game where both sides trying to find an edge, that's terran getting to build exactly the same army regardless what their opponent does.
On September 23 2012 01:47 Fig wrote: This is not a good idea. The viking is already the best air superiority unit in the game. It takes out anything armored with ease, as well as anything that is massive, since those air units are all armored too. And it does this from 9 range, at a low unit cost. As a protoss, I would kill for this unit even if it didn't even have a ground mode.
Now you want to buff the ground damage, so that is deals damage pretty well to everything. Vikings already do this, though it may not seem like it, because people hardly ever use them on the ground (since it's air uses are so amazing). It has 12 ground DPS against everything already, which is a bit less than twice that of a stalker (6.9).
The viking is certainly not a unit that needs any more help. Instead you should be focusing on other units that are actually underused.
Are you saying this on the basis because you lose your colossus to vikings "as a protoss"...?
Vikings have no use after taking out colossus in a TvP. If you land 'em, they usually die in the process of landing or they die so fast on the ground. After the ground vikings die, toss can just spam out colo again because the vikings just get scrapped when they transform. Then again, I have some terran bias too.
I just feel like the transform function is more gimmicky than anything right now. Some kind of change feels needed; dunno if this change is the best...
Vikings are the best air-to-air unit from all three races together and as a bonus they can also land and switch to ground mode. Same thing goes for upgrades, everyone just tries to look at those spots were he thinks "his" race is at a disadvantage, ever thought about that zergs need to get melee + ranged attacks and protoss all the shield upgrades as well to keep on equal upgrade footing on the ground?
If the viking was a widely unused unit or terrans would struggle a lot with some kind of unit composition/build where vikings seem to be the answer while not breaking anything else in the game, then these threads would actualy make sense.
On September 23 2012 02:26 avilo wrote: This would be a good idea. Vikings on the ground suck right now. I think they originally changed viking armor because...of a terrible map pool and trying to balance the game too quickly.
Ever since then vikings on the ground have been bad.
Tanks were nerfed mostly because of the map pool in the early stages of SC2 but not vikings, they simply should not be cost efficient on the ground compared to normal ground units. I'd like to know what you would say about corruptors if your main race was zerg. :-)
Making viking a LIGHT-type unit is a viable solution: - they can compliment mech - in the air for AA and on the ground for mobile fighting (still somewhat sluggish) - it won't effect air-to-air that much - BC/corrupter/mutalisk would deal the same damage to it but phoenix will be stronger but that is ok since Vikings have a much better range. in tvt viking vs viking fights will take a longer duration. -if your concerned that ground vikings after this upgrade will plow through everything, just TUNE the ground attack range
As of right now, ground vikings have been nothing but a gimmik ability like the thor. In conclusion blizzard, please experiment will different ideas! P.S. Someone should try this out in unit tester - making viking light and test it against every other unit.
On September 25 2012 08:11 sona wrote: Making viking a LIGHT-type unit is a viable solution: - they can compliment mech - in the air for AA and on the ground for mobile fighting (still somewhat sluggish) - it won't effect air-to-air that much - BC/corrupter/mutalisk would deal the same damage to it but phoenix will be stronger but that is ok since Vikings have a much better range. in tvt viking vs viking fights will take a longer duration. -if your concerned that ground vikings after this upgrade will plow through everything, just TUNE the ground attack range
As of right now, ground vikings have been nothing but a gimmik ability like the thor. In conclusion blizzard, please experiment will different ideas! P.S. Someone should try this out in unit tester - making viking light and test it against every other unit.
you realize phoenixes can shoot while moving right so kiting them is a real pain/not possible...and also have a range upgrade to get 7 range?
On September 25 2012 08:11 sona wrote: Making viking a LIGHT-type unit is a viable solution: - they can compliment mech - in the air for AA and on the ground for mobile fighting (still somewhat sluggish) - it won't effect air-to-air that much - BC/corrupter/mutalisk would deal the same damage to it but phoenix will be stronger but that is ok since Vikings have a much better range. in tvt viking vs viking fights will take a longer duration. -if your concerned that ground vikings after this upgrade will plow through everything, just TUNE the ground attack range
As of right now, ground vikings have been nothing but a gimmik ability like the thor. In conclusion blizzard, please experiment will different ideas! P.S. Someone should try this out in unit tester - making viking light and test it against every other unit.
you realize phoenixes can shoot while moving right so kiting them is a real pain/not possible...and also have a range upgrade to get 7 range?
On September 25 2012 08:11 sona wrote: Making viking a LIGHT-type unit is a viable solution: - they can compliment mech - in the air for AA and on the ground for mobile fighting (still somewhat sluggish) - it won't effect air-to-air that much - BC/corrupter/mutalisk would deal the same damage to it but phoenix will be stronger but that is ok since Vikings have a much better range. in tvt viking vs viking fights will take a longer duration. -if your concerned that ground vikings after this upgrade will plow through everything, just TUNE the ground attack range
But if Vikings were a light unit, SkyToss would actually be good, and we can't have that.
I think it would be a great idea, but i feel keeping vikings effected by air upgrades would still be the best idea, not making them too powerful and allowing for interesting mech into mass air switches on many bases.
also making vikings ground mech upgrades would nerf the hell out of skyterran
On September 25 2012 00:23 Thrasymachus725 wrote: Even if they did buff the viking ground damage by a small amount, it wouldn't fix the mech problem. All it would do, is make Mechs anti-air far too powerful. Immortals tear through vikings in any amount without even batting an eye and chargelot archon would still rip them to shreds.
they should change viking to light, it is a fragile unit after all. Might have to make mods for air to even it out against other air units. ground vikings being complimented with battle hellions and tanks can take on zealots and archons decently.
Rofl, yes please do that... Phoenix don't destroy them enough as is. Also, banelings should blast through them AND battlehellions on the ground. Not to mention hellions need to burn through them like butter.
Why do you want the viking to be light? So they can eat Immortal shots? You have the hellbat for that...
Are you implying that Phoenix beat Vikings? Because they don't. They can serve as meatshields for your Colossi vs. a Terran that doesn't target fire properly, but that's about all the use you're gonna get from Phoenix in actual engagements... compared to Vikings which are a staple of TvP and ZvT.
I can understand Terrans wanting to make mech compositions work in TvP again after the Warhound got nuked, but the Viking's Assault Mode isn't a good place to try to fit in more power because the unit is already so strong. Just let the Viking be, it's in a good place right now; compare that to the Void Ray, which instead of being a specialist unit like the Viking, tries to do everything at once but isn't good at anything.
Vikings on ground are actually fine. Their main problem is that they generally aren't as well-upgraded as the rest of your army. If landed Vikings benefited from mech upgrades I don't think there'd be a problem.
Oh but if I had to think of a buff if this wasn't enough, it'd be to give them 1 armor. It really doesn't make sense they have 0 when they are such beefy-looking units, anyway.
On September 25 2012 08:11 sona wrote: Making viking a LIGHT-type unit is a viable solution: - they can compliment mech - in the air for AA and on the ground for mobile fighting (still somewhat sluggish) - it won't effect air-to-air that much - BC/corrupter/mutalisk would deal the same damage to it but phoenix will be stronger but that is ok since Vikings have a much better range. in tvt viking vs viking fights will take a longer duration. -if your concerned that ground vikings after this upgrade will plow through everything, just TUNE the ground attack range
But if Vikings were a light unit, SkyToss would actually be good, and we can't have that.
This would destroy TvT since thors do bonus damage to light.
On a side note, what makes phoenix terrible vs vikings is not a fight over space with pure viking vs pure phoenix. It's that with any sort of support the vikings wreck phoenix due tot he fact that the phoenix need to come within range of marines / turrets / thors to attack the vikings while the same is not true of the vikings.
In HOTS I would increase the gas cost of vikings to 100 (same as muta and phoenix) supply to 3 and decrease the landing time to pretty much instant and increase the assault mode HP to 160. maybe give 1ar as well. I feel damage and walking speed are fine.
That should be enough to encourage terran to experiment with assault mode more, make them more durable on the ground and discourage people from overmaking them blindly as a 'catchall counter' to everything.
I don't know how big an issue the supply cost increase would affect the corruptor / viking wars. If need be I'd be happy to see corruptors increased to 3. BL would stay 4 supply.
This might also encourage BCs since currently you can get 3 vikings per BC, where 2 is a much better ratio.
This is just me thinking out loud based on some of the other comments in this thread, but what if, instead of tweaking the base unit they simply allow the viking to be upgraded by BOTH ground mech and air upgrades? And I don't mean, ground attack upgraded by ground and air attack by air -- I mean, with a 3/3 mech upgrade and a 3/3 air upgrade you would have a 6/6 viking. It seems like it could be decent on the ground, but might be OP in the air. Although with the tempest and hydra buff, maybe it wouldn't be too bad. Thoughts?
On September 25 2012 14:01 HypertonicHydroponic wrote: This is just me thinking out loud based on some of the other comments in this thread, but what if, instead of tweaking the base unit they simply allow the viking to be upgraded by BOTH ground mech and air upgrades? And I don't mean, ground attack upgraded by ground and air attack by air -- I mean, with a 3/3 mech upgrade and a 3/3 air upgrade you would have a 6/6 viking. It seems like it could be decent on the ground, but might be OP in the air. Although with the tempest and hydra buff, maybe it wouldn't be too bad. Thoughts?
On September 25 2012 14:01 HypertonicHydroponic wrote: This is just me thinking out loud based on some of the other comments in this thread, but what if, instead of tweaking the base unit they simply allow the viking to be upgraded by BOTH ground mech and air upgrades? And I don't mean, ground attack upgraded by ground and air attack by air -- I mean, with a 3/3 mech upgrade and a 3/3 air upgrade you would have a 6/6 viking. It seems like it could be decent on the ground, but might be OP in the air. Although with the tempest and hydra buff, maybe it wouldn't be too bad. Thoughts?
6 ar would be stupidly imba.
would be kinda epic having this viking though. Maybe zergs wouldnt camp all day long with there imposible to kill army, since 6/6 viking might come and woop your ass. It would also benefit good terran players who have good macro ability and all. And since every race is differnt it could work, right now zergs/toss players on this thread keeps talking about there units, compared to viking and how viking cant be atleast average on ground because its good in air. Thor is good vs air and good vs heavy ground targets, pheonix is good vs air and good at harrasing. Why cant viking have couple or roles is beyond me, because viking is cool unit, that have interesting mechanic, why simple having more a move bio army is more fun for ppl than having fun unique unit?
If you keep saying he must suck on ground still, why not remove ground mode altogether and make them cheaper? Since its another case of 250mm strike cannon atm (this ability actually nerf's the unit instead of buffing it).
I think an interesting buff to give to ground vikings would be a range increase, maybe to 7. That way in TvP if you kill all the colossi, when you land them they can fight from behind the bio-ball, and if you react quickly enough you can lift them off and retreat them if you see that your bio army is going to die.
On September 25 2012 14:01 HypertonicHydroponic wrote: This is just me thinking out loud based on some of the other comments in this thread, but what if, instead of tweaking the base unit they simply allow the viking to be upgraded by BOTH ground mech and air upgrades? And I don't mean, ground attack upgraded by ground and air attack by air -- I mean, with a 3/3 mech upgrade and a 3/3 air upgrade you would have a 6/6 viking. It seems like it could be decent on the ground, but might be OP in the air. Although with the tempest and hydra buff, maybe it wouldn't be too bad. Thoughts?
6 ar would be stupidly imba.
would be kinda epic having this viking though. Maybe zergs wouldnt camp all day long with there imposible to kill army, since 6/6 viking might come and woop your ass. It would also benefit good terran players who have good macro ability and all. And since every race is differnt it could work, right now zergs/toss players on this thread keeps talking about there units, compared to viking and how viking cant be atleast average on ground because its good in air. Thor is good vs air and good vs heavy ground targets, pheonix is good vs air and good at harrasing. Why cant viking have couple or roles is beyond me, because viking is cool unit, that have interesting mechanic, why simple having more a move bio army is more fun for ppl than having fun unique unit?
If you keep saying he must suck on ground still, why not remove ground mode altogether and make them cheaper? Since its another case of 250mm strike cannon atm (this ability actually nerf's the unit instead of buffing it).
Your post is stupidly terran biased. There is so much wrong with it my eyes are bleeding.
Firstly, 6/6 viking is a stupidly hard counter to everything that flys in the game as well as colossus. On the ground they would be better than roaches. Second, the viking is already the cheapest flying unit in the game for gas cost, and pretty close on mineral cost too. Mutas cost 50 less mins and 25 more gas. Everything else costs more. You could remove their ground ability and with their current cost they would still be balanced. Third, the zerg army isn't impossible to kill. Buffing vikings to a rediculous level of damage and armour is just asking for an EZ-mode way to win. Fourth, Vikings have a secondary role which is to land and shoot shit. You don't see it much, but the role exists. They have decent dps for a unit that costs as little as a viking considering it is also the best anti-air fighter in the game.
On September 25 2012 14:01 HypertonicHydroponic wrote: This is just me thinking out loud based on some of the other comments in this thread, but what if, instead of tweaking the base unit they simply allow the viking to be upgraded by BOTH ground mech and air upgrades? And I don't mean, ground attack upgraded by ground and air attack by air -- I mean, with a 3/3 mech upgrade and a 3/3 air upgrade you would have a 6/6 viking. It seems like it could be decent on the ground, but might be OP in the air. Although with the tempest and hydra buff, maybe it wouldn't be too bad. Thoughts?
6 ar would be stupidly imba.
would be kinda epic having this viking though. Maybe zergs wouldnt camp all day long with there imposible to kill army, since 6/6 viking might come and woop your ass. It would also benefit good terran players who have good macro ability and all. And since every race is differnt it could work, right now zergs/toss players on this thread keeps talking about there units, compared to viking and how viking cant be atleast average on ground because its good in air. Thor is good vs air and good vs heavy ground targets, pheonix is good vs air and good at harrasing. Why cant viking have couple or roles is beyond me, because viking is cool unit, that have interesting mechanic, why simple having more a move bio army is more fun for ppl than having fun unique unit?
If you keep saying he must suck on ground still, why not remove ground mode altogether and make them cheaper? Since its another case of 250mm strike cannon atm (this ability actually nerf's the unit instead of buffing it).
Your post is stupidly terran biased. There is so much wrong with it my eyes are bleeding.
Firstly, 6/6 viking is a stupidly hard counter to everything that flys in the game as well as colossus. On the ground they would be better than roaches. Second, the viking is already the cheapest flying unit in the game for gas cost, and pretty close on mineral cost too. Mutas cost 50 less mins and 25 more gas. Everything else costs more. You could remove their ground ability and with their current cost they would still be balanced. Third, the zerg army isn't impossible to kill. Buffing vikings to a rediculous level of damage and armour is just asking for an EZ-mode way to win. Fourth, Vikings have a secondary role which is to land and shoot shit. You don't see it much, but the role exists. They have decent dps for a unit that costs as little as a viking considering it is also the best anti-air fighter in the game.
On September 25 2012 15:09 Agh wrote: Obligatory mention that landed vikings do double the dps of a stalker.
Besides the fact that such a comparison is ridiculous you are spreading disinformation.
That is simply not true. A viking has 23% higher dps to armored and 73% higher dps, assuming no upgrades . At 3 weapon upgrades the numbers are 27% vs 66%.
See my calculations in a previous post in this thread.
Where does the figure 2 come from and why are protoss players actively spreading false information like this?
On September 25 2012 14:01 HypertonicHydroponic wrote: This is just me thinking out loud based on some of the other comments in this thread, but what if, instead of tweaking the base unit they simply allow the viking to be upgraded by BOTH ground mech and air upgrades? And I don't mean, ground attack upgraded by ground and air attack by air -- I mean, with a 3/3 mech upgrade and a 3/3 air upgrade you would have a 6/6 viking. It seems like it could be decent on the ground, but might be OP in the air. Although with the tempest and hydra buff, maybe it wouldn't be too bad. Thoughts?
6 ar would be stupidly imba.
would be kinda epic having this viking though. Maybe zergs wouldnt camp all day long with there imposible to kill army, since 6/6 viking might come and woop your ass. It would also benefit good terran players who have good macro ability and all. And since every race is differnt it could work, right now zergs/toss players on this thread keeps talking about there units, compared to viking and how viking cant be atleast average on ground because its good in air. Thor is good vs air and good vs heavy ground targets, pheonix is good vs air and good at harrasing. Why cant viking have couple or roles is beyond me, because viking is cool unit, that have interesting mechanic, why simple having more a move bio army is more fun for ppl than having fun unique unit?
If you keep saying he must suck on ground still, why not remove ground mode altogether and make them cheaper? Since its another case of 250mm strike cannon atm (this ability actually nerf's the unit instead of buffing it).
Your post is stupidly terran biased. There is so much wrong with it my eyes are bleeding.
Firstly, 6/6 viking is a stupidly hard counter to everything that flys in the game as well as colossus. On the ground they would be better than roaches. Second, the viking is already the cheapest flying unit in the game for gas cost, and pretty close on mineral cost too. Mutas cost 50 less mins and 25 more gas. Everything else costs more. You could remove their ground ability and with their current cost they would still be balanced. Third, the zerg army isn't impossible to kill. Buffing vikings to a rediculous level of damage and armour is just asking for an EZ-mode way to win. Fourth, Vikings have a secondary role which is to land and shoot shit. You don't see it much, but the role exists. They have decent dps for a unit that costs as little as a viking considering it is also the best anti-air fighter in the game.
viking cost almost triple than roaches, double upgrades could effect only on landed mode, even with 6/6 viking, building tanks and thors is 2x-3x more effective than viking to fight ground, pop per pop corruptors wins vs vikings, now add fungal gg vikings in air, mass vikings actually lose to mass carriers, try it if you dont believe me. TVP biggest problem atm is in late game, where toss switches between ht and colosus armies. If he build colosus and you build viking = fight even. If you build viking, he didnt build colosus = you at big disadvantage. If you didnt build viking , he build colosus = you lose. If you didnt build viking, he didnt build colosus = fight even.
Atm building viking in each mu(p/z) is same guessing game, well you build viking i didnt build air, gg to you. And even if you build viking's and he build air(or colossus), you are on even grounds. Its not like you insta win, since you countered his air units, its more like you didn't lose the game. Thats why making vikings more round unit is one of the solution to solving terran late game. Vikings with upgrades should be good units, they are expensive not only in cost, but buildtime, even when reactored, if you are going bio army, you ussualy have to choose between vikings and medivacs, its not like you have resourses to build extra starports early game. Late game 25 extra gas cost doesnt mean anything though. Terran already have to much gas when going bio.
On September 25 2012 14:01 HypertonicHydroponic wrote: This is just me thinking out loud based on some of the other comments in this thread, but what if, instead of tweaking the base unit they simply allow the viking to be upgraded by BOTH ground mech and air upgrades? And I don't mean, ground attack upgraded by ground and air attack by air -- I mean, with a 3/3 mech upgrade and a 3/3 air upgrade you would have a 6/6 viking. It seems like it could be decent on the ground, but might be OP in the air. Although with the tempest and hydra buff, maybe it wouldn't be too bad. Thoughts?
6 ar would be stupidly imba.
would be kinda epic having this viking though. Maybe zergs wouldnt camp all day long with there imposible to kill army, since 6/6 viking might come and woop your ass. It would also benefit good terran players who have good macro ability and all. And since every race is differnt it could work, right now zergs/toss players on this thread keeps talking about there units, compared to viking and how viking cant be atleast average on ground because its good in air. Thor is good vs air and good vs heavy ground targets, pheonix is good vs air and good at harrasing. Why cant viking have couple or roles is beyond me, because viking is cool unit, that have interesting mechanic, why simple having more a move bio army is more fun for ppl than having fun unique unit?
If you keep saying he must suck on ground still, why not remove ground mode altogether and make them cheaper? Since its another case of 250mm strike cannon atm (this ability actually nerf's the unit instead of buffing it).
Your post is stupidly terran biased. There is so much wrong with it my eyes are bleeding.
Firstly, 6/6 viking is a stupidly hard counter to everything that flys in the game as well as colossus. On the ground they would be better than roaches. Second, the viking is already the cheapest flying unit in the game for gas cost, and pretty close on mineral cost too. Mutas cost 50 less mins and 25 more gas. Everything else costs more. You could remove their ground ability and with their current cost they would still be balanced. Third, the zerg army isn't impossible to kill. Buffing vikings to a rediculous level of damage and armour is just asking for an EZ-mode way to win. Fourth, Vikings have a secondary role which is to land and shoot shit. You don't see it much, but the role exists. They have decent dps for a unit that costs as little as a viking considering it is also the best anti-air fighter in the game.
exactly this. vikings wont get changed and thats a good thing. they are already strong enough.
On September 25 2012 14:01 HypertonicHydroponic wrote: This is just me thinking out loud based on some of the other comments in this thread, but what if, instead of tweaking the base unit they simply allow the viking to be upgraded by BOTH ground mech and air upgrades? And I don't mean, ground attack upgraded by ground and air attack by air -- I mean, with a 3/3 mech upgrade and a 3/3 air upgrade you would have a 6/6 viking. It seems like it could be decent on the ground, but might be OP in the air. Although with the tempest and hydra buff, maybe it wouldn't be too bad. Thoughts?
6 ar would be stupidly imba.
would be kinda epic having this viking though. Maybe zergs wouldnt camp all day long with there imposible to kill army, since 6/6 viking might come and woop your ass. It would also benefit good terran players who have good macro ability and all. And since every race is differnt it could work, right now zergs/toss players on this thread keeps talking about there units, compared to viking and how viking cant be atleast average on ground because its good in air. Thor is good vs air and good vs heavy ground targets, pheonix is good vs air and good at harrasing. Why cant viking have couple or roles is beyond me, because viking is cool unit, that have interesting mechanic, why simple having more a move bio army is more fun for ppl than having fun unique unit?
If you keep saying he must suck on ground still, why not remove ground mode altogether and make them cheaper? Since its another case of 250mm strike cannon atm (this ability actually nerf's the unit instead of buffing it).
Your post is stupidly terran biased. There is so much wrong with it my eyes are bleeding.
Firstly, 6/6 viking is a stupidly hard counter to everything that flys in the game as well as colossus. On the ground they would be better than roaches. Second, the viking is already the cheapest flying unit in the game for gas cost, and pretty close on mineral cost too. Mutas cost 50 less mins and 25 more gas. Everything else costs more. You could remove their ground ability and with their current cost they would still be balanced. Third, the zerg army isn't impossible to kill. Buffing vikings to a rediculous level of damage and armour is just asking for an EZ-mode way to win. Fourth, Vikings have a secondary role which is to land and shoot shit. You don't see it much, but the role exists. They have decent dps for a unit that costs as little as a viking considering it is also the best anti-air fighter in the game.
viking cost almost triple than roaches, double upgrades could effect only on landed mode, even with 6/6 viking, building tanks and thors is 2x-3x more effective than viking to fight ground, pop per pop corruptors wins vs vikings, now add fungal gg vikings in air, mass vikings actually lose to mass carriers, try it if you dont believe me. TVP biggest problem atm is in late game, where toss switches between ht and colosus armies. If he build colosus and you build viking = fight even. If you build viking, he didnt build colosus = you at big disadvantage. If you didnt build viking , he build colosus = you lose. If you didnt build viking, he didnt build colosus = fight even.
Atm building viking in each mu(p/z) is same guessing game, well you build viking i didnt build air, gg to you. And even if you build viking's and he build air(or colossus), you are on even grounds. Its not like you insta win, since you countered his air units, its more like you didn't lose the game. Thats why making vikings more round unit is one of the solution to solving terran late game. Vikings with upgrades should be good units, they are expensive not only in cost, but buildtime, even when reactored, if you are going bio army, you ussualy have to choose between vikings and medivacs, its not like you have resourses to build extra starports early game. Late game 25 extra gas cost doesnt mean anything though. Terran already have to much gas when going bio.
Actually, the more I think about this the more I think that this is just an ugly fix that is meant to fix a problem caused by the poorly designed Thor unit. Consider this: In the TvP matchup all the "scary" ground units when playing mech are either zealots or a unit which the thor would be good against had it not been for the 250mm strike cannon "ability". These units are stalkers, archons, immortals and colossus. They all share the property of having a large collision radius meaning that tank splash damage does not affect as many units. A hard hitting single target raw damage dealer has the potential to be a core unit in a TvP mech army. The composition would consist of Thors, Hellions, Tanks and Vikings. A few tanks could still be useful to target fire stalkers and high templars but the main dps output would come from the Thor. Vikings has to be deployed to deal with colossus and void rays. I guess you could also mix in banshees and ravens as you go along.
It would only require that Blizzard scrapped the stupid 250mm cannon upgrade and the thor energy bar along with it. They could also make the ability cooldown based again. The new phase shield ability can be used to prevent 250mm cannons from affecting a target. This would make the protoss able to engage thor armies,
The thor-immortal interaction is the most stupid thing about SC2, with Hots they really have the chance to pick up the ball again.
If you buff the Vikings on ground to be, just some what decent. Then they would have to take a huge anti air blow. Right now Vikings are around 75% Valkyrie / 25% Goliath, what your suggesting, is that they make it a 75% Valkyrie / 75% Goliath.
I don't get why people want to change a unit that literally nobody complained about. Seriously, the viking has its place within the game, and the landing mode is not so much a way to make them more versatile and effective vs ground units, it's more a way for them to safely disengage vs superior anti-air numbers.
On September 25 2012 19:02 Fragile51 wrote: I don't get why people want to change a unit that literally nobody complained about. Seriously, the viking has its place within the game, and the landing mode is not so much a way to make them more versatile and effective vs ground units, it's more a way for them to safely disengage vs superior anti-air numbers.
Ultra switch from Broodlord/Corruptor is a serious problem in TvZ (one of the major ones, and don't claim that TvZ is a fine match-up, because it's not). Also, HT switch from Collosi is quite a problem as well for Terran and instant remax on gate units during battle when Terran has a lot of worthless flying supply is hard to deal with.
Buffing ground mode vikings could solve these issues (maybe slightly, but still) and since HotS is still in beta I think it's a proper time for these suggestions.
On September 25 2012 19:02 Fragile51 wrote: I don't get why people want to change a unit that literally nobody complained about. Seriously, the viking has its place within the game, and the landing mode is not so much a way to make them more versatile and effective vs ground units, it's more a way for them to safely disengage vs superior anti-air numbers.
Ultra switch from Broodlord/Corruptor is a serious problem in TvZ (one of the major ones, and don't claim that TvZ is a fine match-up, because it's not). Also, HT switch from Collosi is quite a problem as well for Terran and instant remax on gate units during battle when Terran has a lot of worthless flying supply is hard to deal with.
Buffing ground mode vikings could solve these issues (maybe slightly, but still) and since HotS is still in beta I think it's a proper time for these suggestions.
But it would be so hard to properly balance that..i mean at what point would vikings become such a catch-all solution to every tech path that you can just make them blindly and be fine? I don't think sc2 needs more of that right now. If you were to make vikings more effective on the ground you'd have to nerf them in the air, simple as that. I don't think that fixes that problem.
On September 25 2012 19:02 Fragile51 wrote: I don't get why people want to change a unit that literally nobody complained about. Seriously, the viking has its place within the game, and the landing mode is not so much a way to make them more versatile and effective vs ground units, it's more a way for them to safely disengage vs superior anti-air numbers.
Ultra switch from Broodlord/Corruptor is a serious problem in TvZ (one of the major ones, and don't claim that TvZ is a fine match-up, because it's not). Also, HT switch from Collosi is quite a problem as well for Terran and instant remax on gate units during battle when Terran has a lot of worthless flying supply is hard to deal with.
Buffing ground mode vikings could solve these issues (maybe slightly, but still) and since HotS is still in beta I think it's a proper time for these suggestions.
But it would be so hard to properly balance that..i mean at what point would vikings become such a catch-all solution to every tech path that you can just make them blindly and be fine? I don't think sc2 needs more of that right now. If you were to make vikings more effective on the ground you'd have to nerf them in the air, simple as that. I don't think that fixes that problem.
I don't want to majorly buff them like Dephy was suggesting. Something like + 1 base armor and bonus +1 (or maybe even two?Don't know about this much, there should be some testing) damage per upgrade would be a nice and proper addition imo.
I would like to see more use from vikings, but I don't want it to go way overboard. Just maybe an increase to their armour on the ground, for them to tank a little damage or something, not sure though.
On September 25 2012 14:01 HypertonicHydroponic wrote: This is just me thinking out loud based on some of the other comments in this thread, but what if, instead of tweaking the base unit they simply allow the viking to be upgraded by BOTH ground mech and air upgrades? And I don't mean, ground attack upgraded by ground and air attack by air -- I mean, with a 3/3 mech upgrade and a 3/3 air upgrade you would have a 6/6 viking. It seems like it could be decent on the ground, but might be OP in the air. Although with the tempest and hydra buff, maybe it wouldn't be too bad. Thoughts?
6 ar would be stupidly imba.
Do you even play the game at a reasonable level? It seems like everyone is just tossing things out of his head.
There have been so many dumb suggestions already in this thread it's unbelieveable (making vikings light etc). Radical changes like these affect the whole gameplay a ton. Vikings are already the "best" anti air unit from all three races (corruptors can't land and unless a greater spire is up already they fly around useless apart from being terrible against units that are not massive; phoenix can harass but are very specialised in that you need more of them to have the energy and they only serve vs light units while vikings can be used vs any other air unit as well as all capital ships/colossi). Apart from that they can land as a bonus to help out. A zerg can't do this with his corruptors and phoenix are also quite limited in this role (having 3-4 phoenix and won't help you too much getting overrun by mass ling-roach or stimmed bio, since you can't "hide" them behind other units or simply don't do dps in that case).
Lets be honest, the real issue for all the people posting in this thread seems to be that they want mech to be viable so badly that they are willing to change anything to make that happen. First of all this is not a necessary step to balance win rates over races, it's only there to diversify terran play even more. So all those threads with possible terran unit buffs have to be considered carefully, because most suggestions don't only buff mech but straight up normal terran bio play. Most people also seem to forget that just diversifying gameplay of a race is not the same as "this race is overall too weak so we need to buff it some way". Hence with any significant buff to a unit there needs to be a nerf to another aspect of this race assuming the goal is again only to diversify and not just straight up buffing this race. So any possible buffs that also strengthen not mech-centric terran gameplay need to be well-thought-out to not end in a disaster since the regular gameplay in WOL overall (not saying no tweaks can be done) is in a quite good state currently. Secondly everyone who really wants to play mech that can really be called mech (the warhound did not feel like mech at all ...) should happen to reasonable changes to current mech units or a well designed new mech unit.
And last but not least don't forget that not only terrans want to use all their units in every matchup. Every race has units that they simply can't use in certain matchups or only in specific circumstances but not as a standard everygame-go-to-unit. Current bio-centric play requires skill in a lot of different areas not only in micro/macro but also quick decision making etc. Did you ever think about the consequences to the gameplay a viking buff (which is perfectly fine imho, there are other terran units that could be tweaked) would create? Apart from possible balance issues in a lot of other areas in the game you would end up like someone described a few posts above "just going tanks+vikings and be fine". This is not interesting gameplay and far more boring than any current terran play is. SC2 will only remain a well acknowledged and widely appreciated interesting game to play if encourage more diversify gameplay instead of narrowing it down. Change mech in the long run? Sure, nothing wrong with that. Destroying balance and/or creating a stupid version of mech along the way? Hell no.
I hope this motivates people to actually think through their suggestions at least 1minute before hitting the "post" button with the very first thought that strikes their mind.
I do think honestly that vehicle and air weapons/armor should be merged, so that there are two sets of upgrades, Bio and Mechanical, vikings are clearly necessary in so many situations with "standard" mech, and MVP has shown more recently that banshees allow you to do a lot more a lot better, too, and it would also open up the lategame more. (TvZ)
Lets throw stuff like this out there, and complain about mech when it is good enough to throw korean TvP/Z to 70+% winrates for a month or more, until then, it is clearly needed if mech is to be a viable and desired playstyle with rax play taking over the beta immediately after the warhound removal (which was pretty neccesary, pre-nerf there were obviously major issues)
Wouldnt it be sweet if all of the "marine overpowered" jokes turned to "siege tanks overpowered" overnight though, In their current state marines do not flat out break anything, but nobody can argue that they are a bad or underpowered unit, whereas most point to tanks being awful vs protoss, or bad with many good strategies vs zerg. We can dream.
On September 25 2012 21:34 Cyro wrote: I do think honestly that vehicle and air weapons/armor should be merged, so that there are two sets of upgrades, Bio and Mechanical, vikings are clearly necessary in so many situations with "standard" mech, and MVP has shown more recently that banshees allow you to do a lot more a lot better, too, and it would also open up the lategame more. (TvZ)
Lets throw stuff like this out there, and complain about mech when it is good enough to throw korean TvP/Z to 70+% winrates for a month or more, until then, it is clearly needed if mech is to be a viable and desired playstyle with rax play taking over the beta immediately after the warhound removal (which was pretty neccesary, pre-nerf there were obviously major issues)
Wouldnt it be sweet if all of the "marine overpowered" jokes turned to "siege tanks overpowered" overnight though, In their current state marines do not flat out break anything, but nobody can argue that they are a bad or underpowered unit, whereas most point to tanks being awful vs protoss, or bad with many good strategies vs zerg. We can dream.
If mech would be playable in all matchups and bio not, people would just talk about bio nonstop as well. It's just that people always long for the thing they can't have. :-)
Ad merging the upgrades: Terran would have the cheapest upgrade paths from all three races then and on the way buffing bio-centric play (easier to incorporate some other units there as well). So while this is a possibility I feel again that this would be just a "overall terran straight up buff" (exactly like the upgrade cost reduction on the protoss ground upgrades had been) while not targeting any specific playstyle alone (ofc it buffs mech a lot but also bio-centric play by a good margin). Changes like these are a good way to balance the game if the overall state of a race is that it is too weak vs the other two races because you don't create any nasty new unit compositions/timings (maybe with upgrades but in a much lesser degree then at least) compared to straight up unit changes.
Hence why I think units/upgrades/abilities that directly go to a mech centric play should have the focus instead of overall buffs. Terran bio is in a fine state right now and it took quite a while to get there in WOL.
To throw one of my own ideas out there:
I think something should be done with the Thor's strike canon. However, I'm not simply talking about slight tweaks here. On the contrary, I'm talking about completely removing this ability and instead introduce a new special ability for the Thor. The reasoning behind this is that a unit should never counter unit that are supposed to be counters to it or at least very good vs it by themselves. So while the strike canon could be fine in TvZ maybe to help out vs ultralisk and in tvt maybe as well (not really sure about this, cause apart from thors themselves which unit would be worth it since they can't use it on air -> bc's) the canon ability together with a normal casting range of 9 is not only good vs colossi/archons (which would be fine, encouring the use of abilities on the right targets (archons) and having to keep colossi out of canon range (colossi)) but vs immortals. Immortals are already units that are way more specialised than the other two mentioned in that they are not just decent in like every kinda normal battle but only in certain situations. Their build time, mobility compared to the other two units and only doing any significant dps vs armored means you don't just want to mass them blindly in a normal tvp. There was a reason strike canon got nerfed after Thorzain showcasing it in a nice tournament series. So instead of trying to focus on stats to the strike canon (cooldown didn't do it and most terrans are not happy about that enegy bar at all even if the energy cost would be reduced) I believe the better approach would be to give the unit some nice ability that in a way can help terrans with typical mech issues (maybe something to help control space more easily ...). This would make it possible for the thor to have a nice place in the terran army like other units and encourage players to make thors because of their utility while still requiring the player to make the right unit composition to go along with them (like ghosts to emp immortals). And because the thor on its own is not the super unit because it can be countered this ability could actually be on the strong side rather than being some gimmicky ability that can only be used in rare situations.
This gimmicky utility seems to the for instance the HSM on the raven, because compared to the other two races the terran army comes along with higher dps but not that nice aoe protoss has and not the mobility/tech switch/swarming ability with high eco zerg can offer. This combined with the fact that the raven itself is already a flying unit with detection and 2 versatile skills means that HSM can never be on the same strength level as hts (which are ground, damn slow and without the aoe toss has way less dps in big engagements cause zealots are melee and can't always hit like ranged unit) or infestors (which kinda seem to be a little bit too prevalent but absolutely necessary cause other zerg options lack in strength for straight up engagements). Such abilities will always either be regarded being totally op or next to useless only seen in rare games. It's tough to find the sweet spot for such abilities. So often times it can be better to scrap the old ability which is hardly ever used and replace it with a new fresh one that can maybe fix on of the other shortcomings the race in its current state is suffering from.
Personally I think that they should try adding the sc1 goliath But I would like to see some buff to make ground vikings usable but then again I am only silver league and my opinion does not mean shit : /
If vikings were viable in ground mode, I believe I would quit QQing about wanting a new unit in HOTS........as of right now im feeling like im getting ripped off, having to adapt my standard play style to survive the new innovations for the other two races.
I don't think vikings being independantly strong on ground would be a good design. It makes them way too versatile if they can fight on par with stalkers while having such air superiority.
I think what mech needs is mobile damage sinks. Battle hellions might be a compensation, but how about no hellions and go tank-thor-viking?
I think it would be nice if viking's land form has 2 armor, a specialty armor that reduces all damage from splash attacks (including friendly splash like tank fire) by 50%. Range of 5, 6x2 damage.
The attacks are terrible, but it's great at landing down in front of deathballs or skirmishes and just soaking damage while heavy hitters wail away. Generally, any design that avoids hydra/roach/stalker/marauder like design where you just make a butt load of them and attack move with some focus fire / pull-back micro.
I am not sure about movement. I've even thought about something as crazy as a heavy viking that's so slow it might as well be stationary. And large movements are done by transforming to air and relocating. Or a offensively-impotent viking with armor and fast movement.
People are saying some awfully weird stuff in this thread.
"+6 Viking is insane damage" 1+x2 damage is mitigated by 1 armor. Either way it's +0 on equal upgrades. Why should a player have +3 to air while the opponent has less than +3 to ground carapace, ground armor, etc? All this change would do is buff Vikings against Immortal shields. This is good because Immortals make mech stupid.
"Vikings are already better than x unit" So? Marines are better than Hydras, Colossi are better than Tanks, Infestors are better than everything. You have to judge it in the context of each race's abilities.
"Any kind of Viking buff makes them too easy" Blizzard just tried to add the Warhound, meant to be an OP a move death machine that beats immortals, instead it beat everything because it was a stupid unit. Ground Vikings are probably going to be way, way weaker than the Warhound ever was. The game NEEDS something a little powerful in that role.
On September 26 2012 01:45 LavaLava wrote: People are saying some awfully weird stuff in this thread.
"+6 Viking is insane damage" 1+x2 damage is mitigated by 1 armor. Either way it's +0 on equal upgrades. Why should a player have +3 to air while the opponent has less than +3 to ground carapace, ground armor, etc? All this change would do is buff Vikings against Immortal shields. This is good because Immortals make mech stupid.
"Vikings are already better than x unit" So? Marines are better than Hydras, Colossi are better than Tanks, Infestors are better than everything. You have to judge it in the context of each race's abilities.
"Any kind of Viking buff makes them too easy" Blizzard just tried to add the Warhound, meant to be an OP a move death machine that beats immortals, instead it beat everything because it was a stupid unit. Ground Vikings are probably going to be way, way weaker than the Warhound ever was. The game NEEDS something a little powerful in that role.
It's not good design to have the game's premier air superiority fighter be an excellent ground combatant as well. Viking ground mode is a BONUS, not a unit that should be balanced in and of itself. It's a way to give Terrans a little more leeway in overproducing Vikings against Colossi: it's suboptimal to have to land your Vikings to fight, but it won't lose you the fight if you have a few too many.
This is like saying Thors need to have an anti-air attack that has bonus damage against armored as well.
On September 26 2012 01:45 LavaLava wrote: People are saying some awfully weird stuff in this thread.
"+6 Viking is insane damage" 1+x2 damage is mitigated by 1 armor. Either way it's +0 on equal upgrades. Why should a player have +3 to air while the opponent has less than +3 to ground carapace, ground armor, etc? All this change would do is buff Vikings against Immortal shields. This is good because Immortals make mech stupid.
"Vikings are already better than x unit" So? Marines are better than Hydras, Colossi are better than Tanks, Infestors are better than everything. You have to judge it in the context of each race's abilities.
"Any kind of Viking buff makes them too easy" Blizzard just tried to add the Warhound, meant to be an OP a move death machine that beats immortals, instead it beat everything because it was a stupid unit. Ground Vikings are probably going to be way, way weaker than the Warhound ever was. The game NEEDS something a little powerful in that role.
This is not wierd, this is sound logic, I completely agree we need something a little more powerful in that role
On September 26 2012 01:45 LavaLava wrote: People are saying some awfully weird stuff in this thread.
"+6 Viking is insane damage" 1+x2 damage is mitigated by 1 armor. Either way it's +0 on equal upgrades. Why should a player have +3 to air while the opponent has less than +3 to ground carapace, ground armor, etc? All this change would do is buff Vikings against Immortal shields. This is good because Immortals make mech stupid.
yeah it's +0 on equal upgrades, but you can't be even upgrades with +6/+6 vikings... Just designwise, this would be quite some weird stuff, and hardly help at all in the usual 15-25min timezone of a game, as you stimply won't go airmech with 4armories upgrading 4upgrades. Yet afterwards...15dps/125HP/6armor for two supply... that's like two marines merged together, just stronger.
On September 25 2012 14:01 HypertonicHydroponic wrote: This is just me thinking out loud based on some of the other comments in this thread, but what if, instead of tweaking the base unit they simply allow the viking to be upgraded by BOTH ground mech and air upgrades? And I don't mean, ground attack upgraded by ground and air attack by air -- I mean, with a 3/3 mech upgrade and a 3/3 air upgrade you would have a 6/6 viking. It seems like it could be decent on the ground, but might be OP in the air. Although with the tempest and hydra buff, maybe it wouldn't be too bad. Thoughts?
6 ar would be stupidly imba.
Do you even play the game at a reasonable level? It seems like everyone is just tossing things out of his head.
There have been so many dumb suggestions already in this thread it's unbelieveable (making vikings light etc). Radical changes like these affect the whole gameplay a ton. Vikings are already the "best" anti air unit from all three races (corruptors can't land and unless a greater spire is up already they fly around useless apart from being terrible against units that are not massive; phoenix can harass but are very specialised in that you need more of them to have the energy and they only serve vs light units while vikings can be used vs any other air unit as well as all capital ships/colossi). Apart from that they can land as a bonus to help out. A zerg can't do this with his corruptors and phoenix are also quite limited in this role (having 3-4 phoenix and won't help you too much getting overrun by mass ling-roach or stimmed bio, since you can't "hide" them behind other units or simply don't do dps in that case).
Lets be honest, the real issue for all the people posting in this thread seems to be that they want mech to be viable so badly that they are willing to change anything to make that happen. First of all this is not a necessary step to balance win rates over races, it's only there to diversify terran play even more. So all those threads with possible terran unit buffs have to be considered carefully, because most suggestions don't only buff mech but straight up normal terran bio play. Most people also seem to forget that just diversifying gameplay of a race is not the same as "this race is overall too weak so we need to buff it some way". Hence with any significant buff to a unit there needs to be a nerf to another aspect of this race assuming the goal is again only to diversify and not just straight up buffing this race. So any possible buffs that also strengthen not mech-centric terran gameplay need to be well-thought-out to not end in a disaster since the regular gameplay in WOL overall (not saying no tweaks can be done) is in a quite good state currently. Secondly everyone who really wants to play mech that can really be called mech (the warhound did not feel like mech at all ...) should happen to reasonable changes to current mech units or a well designed new mech unit.
And last but not least don't forget that not only terrans want to use all their units in every matchup. Every race has units that they simply can't use in certain matchups or only in specific circumstances but not as a standard everygame-go-to-unit. Current bio-centric play requires skill in a lot of different areas not only in micro/macro but also quick decision making etc. Did you ever think about the consequences to the gameplay a viking buff (which is perfectly fine imho, there are other terran units that could be tweaked) would create? Apart from possible balance issues in a lot of other areas in the game you would end up like someone described a few posts above "just going tanks+vikings and be fine". This is not interesting gameplay and far more boring than any current terran play is. SC2 will only remain a well acknowledged and widely appreciated interesting game to play if encourage more diversify gameplay instead of narrowing it down. Change mech in the long run? Sure, nothing wrong with that. Destroying balance and/or creating a stupid version of mech along the way? Hell no.
I hope this motivates people to actually think through their suggestions at least 1minute before hitting the "post" button with the very first thought that strikes their mind.
I wrote that with three things on my mind:
1) The pieces of that idea were already together with things other people have said in this thread. Giving the unit more armor, having the upgrades to ground apply to the viking in some way, etc. I just wanted to be the first one to put the ideas together in THAT way. You know other people were thinking it.
2) Initially and to a large degree, I was just trolling with that to see what kind of reaction it got. This short paper does not fail to deliver. I mean, it causes a number of problems like, the 4/4 upgrades only costing 100/150 or whatever depending on the order in which you get the upgrades.
3) In some ways though, it makes sense given the fact of the warhound and what they are doing with the battle hellion. Also, if you think about it, that's a lot of time and cash you would be investing into your vikings just to get them to 6/6. It's not like you can just build four armories at the same time and upgrade all the mech and air upgrades at the same time and expect to get away with no repercussions of having that many fewer units cash-wise. It would give the viking the ability to be more beefy without having to change to much. And it would help vikings to scale with a mech army when primarily focusing on ground mech upgrades.
So yeah, go ahead and take it seriously if you want to and find a way to make it work .... or not. The design of the viking like the design of other units, though cool in theory leaves a lot of difficult questions to be answered, that probably aren't going to be solved in a completely acceptable or coherent way. The way it is now, is probably the best it is going to be, but it could probably use some sort of buff. I think what I'd like to see which might be difficult from a coding and/or mechanics perspective, is a moving land/takeoff upgrade to mitigate damage taken in the transformation process. As it is the viking takes so many shots when moving into position and landing that often I think players hesitate to land them because of all the free damage they take. Although, I doubt this does enough to make them more viable as ground units, but I think it would help.
I think there can be a point to making vikings more viable to Immortals with the 2 attack change. We want mech possible in TvP and better ground vikings can be an ok "emergency solution" against them. But I don't think a "general buff" to ground vikings is a good idea. Especially not fiddling with their armor, which is going to make vikings better against everything except immortals.
Wait wait. Why must we assume to give terrans stronger ground Viking for free, and immediatly?
Not a buff: a researchable upgrade. Like Ustralisks extra armor, but on damage instead.
Make it cost quite a bit (150/150? 200/200?), and maybe make Armory a requirement. So they can be the ranged grunts of a max Terran mech army, and late game harassers.
On September 23 2012 01:47 Fig wrote: This is not a good idea. The viking is already the best air superiority unit in the game. It takes out anything armored with ease, as well as anything that is massive, since those air units are all armored too. And it does this from 9 range, at a low unit cost. As a protoss, I would kill for this unit even if it didn't even have a ground mode.
Now you want to buff the ground damage, so that is deals damage pretty well to everything. Vikings already do this, though it may not seem like it, because people hardly ever use them on the ground (since it's air uses are so amazing). It has 12 ground DPS against everything already, which is a bit less than twice that of a stalker (6.9).
The viking is certainly not a unit that needs any more help. Instead you should be focusing on other units that are actually underused.
No. Ground mode vikings are bad.
And also, their ground weapons cant be upgraded. <<<----- this is wrong, sorry. but it would be better if mech weapons affected their ground attack.
edit: ground mode vikings was one of the things that was hit by Blizzard's blanket nerfs at the time when terrans were only doing abusive shit instead of developing solid play styles. The actual argument was that it was too good vs queens I think. This should not apply anymore because Zergs has learned to make many queens and transfuse them when their hp gets in the red.
The problem I have is that ground mode vikings are considerably better than ground attack corrupters/pheonixes.
Vikings are a unit that does exactly what it's supposed to do really well, and that is to kill air. It's not perfect, far from a hard counter to all but 1 unit compositions, but when combined in an efficient composition they're pretty good.
Ground mode vikings as a harass unit are pretty good, they don't kill everything like hellions do for instance, but they can deter a lot of attention from a main army and still do significant ground damage. They're also a lot easier to get into a base than hellions (flying vs the need to drop or get a lucky run by through a wall). They are not meant to be a stalker/marauder/roach type unit, dealing and taking decent damage as part of a composition. They're meant to deal damage to air units and harass/tank if necessary (all the broods dead? lets land them and see if they can soak up some ling hits, or take a roach hit that our tanks don't have to).
I don't personally see how a powerful ground mode viking would add anything to a mech composition. Hellions are mobile, destroy light, tank hits. Tanks do immense damage but don't attack air. Thors are fantastic tanks, do great damage, and are large enough to really benefit from repair. Right there you're doing enough damage to all ground units that adding anything to it doesn't really make sense. The only thing that mech requires really is the ability to handle air, which is given by vikings and to a lesser extent thors (though lets not kid ourselves, thors do a ton of damage to grouped units). Even ravens can handle the majority of zerg air, and can deal damage to bio, or protoss death balls if used correctly as well.
Ground vikings are a niche ability/unit, similar to the corruptor's ability and the pheonix's. They're all useful, just useful at different points and in different situations. They might be bad, but they're no worse than those other 2 skills.
I think a lot of people are missing the main point. the point is vikings have ground mode now... and why do they have ground mode now? they don't really serve any purpose in ground mode at the moment so why does it even exist... i'd rather have a corruption ability or a graviton beam like the other air to air's than a pointless ground mode... make it worth while to go ground mode... give it some purpose, or just scrap it completely instead of leaving it in as a pointless ability.
edit: and while i'm on pointles abilities blizzard for the love of god can you PLEASE do somethign with the thor's 250mm cannon strike, can we please get an ability that is seen in more than 1-2% of games played on b.net and tournaments... please?
On September 26 2012 03:16 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote: I think a lot of people are missing the main point. the point is vikings have ground mode now... and why do they have ground mode now? they don't really serve any purpose in ground mode at the moment so why does it even exist... i'd rather have a corruption ability or a graviton beam like the other air to air's than a pointless ground mode... make it worth while to go ground mode... give it some purpose, or just scrap it completely instead of leaving it in as a pointless ability.
edit: and while i'm on pointles abilities blizzard for the love of god can you PLEASE do somethign with the thor's 250mm cannon strike, can we please get an ability that is seen in more than 1-2% of games played on b.net and tournaments... please?
they have 12 dps and beat a hydra...seems like their ground attack is superstrong already....it just doesnt beat everything lol.
On September 26 2012 03:16 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote: I think a lot of people are missing the main point. the point is vikings have ground mode now... and why do they have ground mode now? they don't really serve any purpose in ground mode at the moment so why does it even exist... i'd rather have a corruption ability or a graviton beam like the other air to air's than a pointless ground mode... make it worth while to go ground mode... give it some purpose, or just scrap it completely instead of leaving it in as a pointless ability.
edit: and while i'm on pointles abilities blizzard for the love of god can you PLEASE do somethign with the thor's 250mm cannon strike, can we please get an ability that is seen in more than 1-2% of games played on b.net and tournaments... please?
they have 12 dps and beat a hydra...seems like their ground attack is superstrong already....it just doesnt beat everything lol.
Thank you for not reading my post. in response to your post after reading it, your comparison of a viking vs hydra might not be the best if you're against the viking ground mode receiving a buff. the reason is because everyone complains about how weak the hydra is and blizzard is actually changing the hydralisk. also in a real game you don't see hydra vs viking ground mode. hydra's are utilized behind a strong unit because of their low survivability and high (14.5) dps, vikings are too clunky to be utilized efficiently behind a buffer unit, (you can't fit as many in a space as you can hydras) and in a real game scenario do SUBSTANTIALLY less dps because of this. let alone doing less dps alone, 12dps vs 14.5...
vikings have a ground mode, why do they have a ground mode? what was blizzard trying to achieve by giving them this? the air to air units of other races have abilities that clearly show what their role is and they are used much more often to fulfil that role than the viking is used to fulfill their unknown role
On September 26 2012 03:16 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote: I think a lot of people are missing the main point. the point is vikings have ground mode now... and why do they have ground mode now? they don't really serve any purpose in ground mode at the moment so why does it even exist... i'd rather have a corruption ability or a graviton beam like the other air to air's than a pointless ground mode... make it worth while to go ground mode... give it some purpose, or just scrap it completely instead of leaving it in as a pointless ability.
edit: and while i'm on pointles abilities blizzard for the love of god can you PLEASE do somethign with the thor's 250mm cannon strike, can we please get an ability that is seen in more than 1-2% of games played on b.net and tournaments... please?
It already DOES have a purpose: it lets Terran players overproduce Vikings to quickly shut down Colossi, and then use Ground Mode to let those Vikings tank for the Marines.
And this is the wrong thread for discussing Strike Cannons, but I already discussed it here.
On September 26 2012 03:16 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote: I think a lot of people are missing the main point. the point is vikings have ground mode now... and why do they have ground mode now? they don't really serve any purpose in ground mode at the moment so why does it even exist... i'd rather have a corruption ability or a graviton beam like the other air to air's than a pointless ground mode... make it worth while to go ground mode... give it some purpose, or just scrap it completely instead of leaving it in as a pointless ability.
edit: and while i'm on pointles abilities blizzard for the love of god can you PLEASE do somethign with the thor's 250mm cannon strike, can we please get an ability that is seen in more than 1-2% of games played on b.net and tournaments... please?
they have 12 dps and beat a hydra...seems like their ground attack is superstrong already....it just doesnt beat everything lol.
Thank you for not reading my post. in response to your post after reading it, your comparison of a viking vs hydra might not be the best if you're against the viking ground mode receiving a buff. the reason is because everyone complains about how weak the hydra is and blizzard is actually changing the hydralisk. also in a real game you don't see hydra vs viking ground mode. hydra's are utilized behind a strong unit because of their low survivability and high (14.5) dps, vikings are too clunky to be utilized efficiently behind a buffer unit, (you can't fit as many in a space as you can hydras) and in a real game scenario do SUBSTANTIALLY less dps because of this. let alone doing less dps alone, 12dps vs 14.5...
vikings have a ground mode, why do they have a ground mode? what was blizzard trying to achieve by giving them this? the air to air units of other races have abilities that clearly show what their role is and they are used much more often to fulfil that role than the viking is used to fulfill their unknown role
12 dps to 14,5 is a bad comparison since viking has a lot more hp and EASILY wins a fight vs hydras. and no you are wrong. hydras are NOT getting buffed! they get speed at hivetech that makes them faster offcreep but still slower as they are now oncreep so the hydra itself will still be the sucky unit and will hopefully get a buff but thats not the topic here.
the topic is that vikings are REALLY good antiair and have a ground damage as a bonus if you have killed colossi/BLs etc. you get to have a 12 dps ground attack that is a great buffer with 125 hp (almost as tanky as a roach) for free as a bonus. so dont complain about a unit that is superfine. you terrans should rather discuss widow mines etc. and not one of your best units.
On September 26 2012 03:16 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote: I think a lot of people are missing the main point. the point is vikings have ground mode now... and why do they have ground mode now? they don't really serve any purpose in ground mode at the moment so why does it even exist... i'd rather have a corruption ability or a graviton beam like the other air to air's than a pointless ground mode... make it worth while to go ground mode... give it some purpose, or just scrap it completely instead of leaving it in as a pointless ability.
edit: and while i'm on pointles abilities blizzard for the love of god can you PLEASE do somethign with the thor's 250mm cannon strike, can we please get an ability that is seen in more than 1-2% of games played on b.net and tournaments... please?
they have 12 dps and beat a hydra...seems like their ground attack is superstrong already....it just doesnt beat everything lol.
yeah, because they are even stronger than the mighty, scary hydralisk supply for supply
On September 26 2012 03:16 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote: I think a lot of people are missing the main point. the point is vikings have ground mode now... and why do they have ground mode now? they don't really serve any purpose in ground mode at the moment so why does it even exist... i'd rather have a corruption ability or a graviton beam like the other air to air's than a pointless ground mode... make it worth while to go ground mode... give it some purpose, or just scrap it completely instead of leaving it in as a pointless ability.
edit: and while i'm on pointles abilities blizzard for the love of god can you PLEASE do somethign with the thor's 250mm cannon strike, can we please get an ability that is seen in more than 1-2% of games played on b.net and tournaments... please?
It already DOES have a purpose: it lets Terran players overproduce Vikings to quickly shut down Colossi, and then use Ground Mode to let those Vikings tank for the Marines.
And this is the wrong thread for discussing Strike Cannons, but I already discussed it here.
You're kidding right? 90% of the time you overproduce Vikings you're screwed... Vikings are laughable on the ground against Protoss
On September 26 2012 03:16 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote: I think a lot of people are missing the main point. the point is vikings have ground mode now... and why do they have ground mode now? they don't really serve any purpose in ground mode at the moment so why does it even exist... i'd rather have a corruption ability or a graviton beam like the other air to air's than a pointless ground mode... make it worth while to go ground mode... give it some purpose, or just scrap it completely instead of leaving it in as a pointless ability.
edit: and while i'm on pointles abilities blizzard for the love of god can you PLEASE do somethign with the thor's 250mm cannon strike, can we please get an ability that is seen in more than 1-2% of games played on b.net and tournaments... please?
It already DOES have a purpose: it lets Terran players overproduce Vikings to quickly shut down Colossi, and then use Ground Mode to let those Vikings tank for the Marines.
And this is the wrong thread for discussing Strike Cannons, but I already discussed it here.
You're kidding right? 90% of the time you overproduce Vikings you're screwed... Vikings are laughable on the ground against Protoss
welcome to the world of non-barracks singlefire units in SC2
On September 26 2012 03:16 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote: I think a lot of people are missing the main point. the point is vikings have ground mode now... and why do they have ground mode now? they don't really serve any purpose in ground mode at the moment so why does it even exist... i'd rather have a corruption ability or a graviton beam like the other air to air's than a pointless ground mode... make it worth while to go ground mode... give it some purpose, or just scrap it completely instead of leaving it in as a pointless ability.
edit: and while i'm on pointles abilities blizzard for the love of god can you PLEASE do somethign with the thor's 250mm cannon strike, can we please get an ability that is seen in more than 1-2% of games played on b.net and tournaments... please?
It already DOES have a purpose: it lets Terran players overproduce Vikings to quickly shut down Colossi, and then use Ground Mode to let those Vikings tank for the Marines.
And this is the wrong thread for discussing Strike Cannons, but I already discussed it here.
You're kidding right? 90% of the time you overproduce Vikings you're screwed... Vikings are laughable on the ground against Protoss
welcome to the world of non-barracks singlefire units in SC2
On September 26 2012 03:16 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote: I think a lot of people are missing the main point. the point is vikings have ground mode now... and why do they have ground mode now? they don't really serve any purpose in ground mode at the moment so why does it even exist... i'd rather have a corruption ability or a graviton beam like the other air to air's than a pointless ground mode... make it worth while to go ground mode... give it some purpose, or just scrap it completely instead of leaving it in as a pointless ability.
edit: and while i'm on pointles abilities blizzard for the love of god can you PLEASE do somethign with the thor's 250mm cannon strike, can we please get an ability that is seen in more than 1-2% of games played on b.net and tournaments... please?
they have 12 dps and beat a hydra...seems like their ground attack is superstrong already....it just doesnt beat everything lol.
yeah, because they are even stronger than the mighty, scary hydralisk supply for supply
well they are doing decent vs every other unit in supply. they kill supply to supply 50-80% of the hp of ultras, stalker, zealot, immortal, colossus, DTs and win vs roaches, hydras and sentries. so yeah they ARE already very decent and what else then 50-120% of hp removal VS GROUND UNITS (!!!) do you want?! some people just want an easy game with alround units that can do everything. buff thor and T can build thor only lol. no vikings needed :-P seems like some people want that kind of easy game...
On September 26 2012 03:16 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote: I think a lot of people are missing the main point. the point is vikings have ground mode now... and why do they have ground mode now? they don't really serve any purpose in ground mode at the moment so why does it even exist... i'd rather have a corruption ability or a graviton beam like the other air to air's than a pointless ground mode... make it worth while to go ground mode... give it some purpose, or just scrap it completely instead of leaving it in as a pointless ability.
edit: and while i'm on pointles abilities blizzard for the love of god can you PLEASE do somethign with the thor's 250mm cannon strike, can we please get an ability that is seen in more than 1-2% of games played on b.net and tournaments... please?
they have 12 dps and beat a hydra...seems like their ground attack is superstrong already....it just doesnt beat everything lol.
yeah, because they are even stronger than the mighty, scary hydralisk supply for supply
well they are doing decent vs every other unit in supply. they kill supply to supply 50-80% of the hp of ultras, stalker, zealot, immortal, colossus, DTs and win vs roaches, hydras and sentries. so yeah they ARE already very decent and what else then 50-120% of hp removal VS GROUND UNITS (!!!) do you want?! some people just want an easy game with alround units that can do everything. buff thor and T can build thor only lol. no vikings needed :-P seems like some people want that kind of easy game...
You have no idea why people have issues with Vikings and Thors.
On September 26 2012 03:16 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote: I think a lot of people are missing the main point. the point is vikings have ground mode now... and why do they have ground mode now? they don't really serve any purpose in ground mode at the moment so why does it even exist... i'd rather have a corruption ability or a graviton beam like the other air to air's than a pointless ground mode... make it worth while to go ground mode... give it some purpose, or just scrap it completely instead of leaving it in as a pointless ability.
edit: and while i'm on pointles abilities blizzard for the love of god can you PLEASE do somethign with the thor's 250mm cannon strike, can we please get an ability that is seen in more than 1-2% of games played on b.net and tournaments... please?
It already DOES have a purpose: it lets Terran players overproduce Vikings to quickly shut down Colossi, and then use Ground Mode to let those Vikings tank for the Marines.
And this is the wrong thread for discussing Strike Cannons, but I already discussed it here.
You're kidding right? 90% of the time you overproduce Vikings you're screwed... Vikings are laughable on the ground against Protoss
welcome to the world of non-barracks singlefire units in SC2
Huh?
every singlefire unit in the game apart from marines and marauders suck vs Protoss. Every ground singlefire unit that is (air units are pretty good). Though if you have something like 33% extra income over Protoss and can produce 40 units per minute, you can get something done
On September 26 2012 03:16 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote: I think a lot of people are missing the main point. the point is vikings have ground mode now... and why do they have ground mode now? they don't really serve any purpose in ground mode at the moment so why does it even exist... i'd rather have a corruption ability or a graviton beam like the other air to air's than a pointless ground mode... make it worth while to go ground mode... give it some purpose, or just scrap it completely instead of leaving it in as a pointless ability.
edit: and while i'm on pointles abilities blizzard for the love of god can you PLEASE do somethign with the thor's 250mm cannon strike, can we please get an ability that is seen in more than 1-2% of games played on b.net and tournaments... please?
they have 12 dps and beat a hydra...seems like their ground attack is superstrong already....it just doesnt beat everything lol.
yeah, because they are even stronger than the mighty, scary hydralisk supply for supply
well they are doing decent vs every other unit in supply. they kill supply to supply 50-80% of the hp of ultras, stalker, zealot, immortal, colossus, DTs and win vs roaches, hydras and sentries. so yeah they ARE already very decent and what else then 50-120% of hp removal VS GROUND UNITS (!!!) do you want?! some people just want an easy game with alround units that can do everything. buff thor and T can build thor only lol. no vikings needed :-P seems like some people want that kind of easy game...
Well, I don't disagree with you. Just saying that using hydralisks as under limit is kind of useless. Though I believe that vikings should land (and maybe lift) faster, as it really takes a long time to actually get them to start shooting, while they still are being shot from air! (also I strongly believe that units should react nearly instantly if you order them something. There is nothing more annoying and skilllimiting, then waiting for your micro to happen)
On September 26 2012 03:16 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote: I think a lot of people are missing the main point. the point is vikings have ground mode now... and why do they have ground mode now? they don't really serve any purpose in ground mode at the moment so why does it even exist... i'd rather have a corruption ability or a graviton beam like the other air to air's than a pointless ground mode... make it worth while to go ground mode... give it some purpose, or just scrap it completely instead of leaving it in as a pointless ability.
edit: and while i'm on pointles abilities blizzard for the love of god can you PLEASE do somethign with the thor's 250mm cannon strike, can we please get an ability that is seen in more than 1-2% of games played on b.net and tournaments... please?
they have 12 dps and beat a hydra...seems like their ground attack is superstrong already....it just doesnt beat everything lol.
yeah, because they are even stronger than the mighty, scary hydralisk supply for supply
well they are doing decent vs every other unit in supply. they kill supply to supply 50-80% of the hp of ultras, stalker, zealot, immortal, colossus, DTs and win vs roaches, hydras and sentries. so yeah they ARE already very decent and what else then 50-120% of hp removal VS GROUND UNITS (!!!) do you want?! some people just want an easy game with alround units that can do everything. buff thor and T can build thor only lol. no vikings needed :-P seems like some people want that kind of easy game...
You have no idea why people have issues with Vikings and Thors.
rofl thats why i said buff thors (remove energy bar and make it cooldown).
people dont have issues with vikings. some few people in this thread have. i havent heard ANY pro complaining about vikings and they complained about a lot of units like 5 rax reaper, BL infestor, immortal all in etc.
still heard no counterargument to my argument that they already "kill" 50-120% of hp supply to supply and with a buff will get better and therefore mass viking is not any more a decision since it then will be stupid NOT to build them. since that is NOT a strategy and sc2 is a strategy game that will be very bad design.
Buffing the ground viking could cause a severe balance problem. Here's two frequent situations that gonna be damaged by this in PvT and ZvT:
1) Protoss makes colossi, you make vikings. Protoss switches to archons. You land vikings, and kill him easily.
2) Zerg makes broodlords, you make vikings. Zerg switches to ultralisks. You land vikings, and kill him easily.
The whole point of tech switches is to gain advantage in order to render the viking useless. The only role of ground mode right now is to be able to give a small buff to your army when the vikings becomes useless instead of having a unit flying around and doing nothing and that already is a significant advantage.
Imagine if vikings couldn't transform, he tech switches to archons and you have 15 vikings flying around and not helping your army at all but as I said, with transform it can still help you, maybe not cost effectively but at least keep you alive and make use of the resources you invested. Buffing the ground viking will make it overpowered.
On September 26 2012 05:24 Adonminus wrote: Buffing the ground viking could cause a severe balance problem. Here's two frequent situations that gonna be damaged by this in PvT and ZvT:
1) Protoss makes colossi, you make vikings. Protoss switches to archons. You land vikings, and kill him easily.
2) Zerg makes broodlords, you make vikings. Zerg switches to ultralisks. You land vikings, and kill him easily.
The whole point of tech switches is to gain advantage in order to render the viking useless. The only role of ground mode right now is to be able to give a small buff to your army when the vikings becomes useless instead of having a unit flying around and doing nothing and that already is a significant advantage.
Imagine if vikings couldn't transform, he tech switches to archons and you have 15 vikings flying around and not helping your army at all but as I said, with transform it can still help you, maybe not cost effectively but at least keep you alive and make use of the resources you invested. Buffing the ground viking will make it overpowered.
listen to this man!
its like building corruptors vs colossus and after they are killed toss reinforces with stalker and immortals and corruptors are dead supply. vikings can at least land and give a bonus to your ground army. please get that it is a bonus! and a really decent one!
I am not saying make vikings brute killers that can tear through ultralisk and immortals, all they need is a SLIGHT buff:
1)like increase its ground attack range by 1 would be good enough.
2) the range can be decreased by 1 and the attack can be increased by 1 or 2, this will force the terran player to use his ground vikings in the front lines and risk loosing them while gambling for a stronger ground force.
3) the ground attack can do a bonus against LIGHT type units, so they are really good for worker harass and against marine/zealot/zerglings
I'm still thinking vikings aren't used to full potential, like the when no air units remain. You can land vikings in mineral lines and harass there. Instead of asking for a buff (could lead to imbalance), or a very minor buff (which won't change anything in anyway) just learn to use them better. A good example is how all terrans whined the 5 range queen is imbalanced, now they changed how they play and can dominate zerg. Same can happen with vikings, just try it out.
On September 26 2012 05:33 sona wrote: 3) the ground attack can do a bonus against LIGHT type units, so they are really good for worker harass and against marine/zealot/zerglings
You're editing your message like mad. lol
Yeah, this could be nice, will let them survive those zealot warp ins when they do the harassing.
On September 26 2012 05:24 Adonminus wrote: Buffing the ground viking could cause a severe balance problem. Here's two frequent situations that gonna be damaged by this in PvT and ZvT:
1) Protoss makes colossi, you make vikings. Protoss switches to archons. You land vikings, and kill him easily.
2) Zerg makes broodlords, you make vikings. Zerg switches to ultralisks. You land vikings, and kill him easily.
The whole point of tech switches is to gain advantage in order to render the viking useless. The only role of ground mode right now is to be able to give a small buff to your army when the vikings becomes useless instead of having a unit flying around and doing nothing and that already is a significant advantage.
Imagine if vikings couldn't transform, he tech switches to archons and you have 15 vikings flying around and not helping your army at all but as I said, with transform it can still help you, maybe not cost effectively but at least keep you alive and make use of the resources you invested. Buffing the ground viking will make it overpowered.
It's like you're assuming that if they buff ground vikings at all that any buff will instantaneously make them OP and wreck everything thing on the ground and in the air. It's very possible that a buff is introduced that's balance them so that ground mode vikings are good without absolutely shitting on everything.
As for "tech switches are suppose to make units in your army useless", that's debatable, although i would personally argue that it's not really good game design to require hard counters that become useless when the thing they're hard countering stops being made. It turns the game in to more of a silly game of rock-paper scissors more than an actual strategy game.
I don't get how anyone can say that Vikings are the best Air to Air unit. Vikings take FOREVER to land/take off. They are also one of the LOWEST HP units per cost, and one of the slowest air units in the game. This is why they are worse than worthless in harass.
Phoenixes are 2x the speed of a Viking and also beats a Viking 1on1. They are also far more useful for both scouting and harass due to their amazing speed, survivability, and not having to transform to attack ground.
Corruptors also kill vikings 1on1, build faster, move faster, and have way more HP. They also transform into BLs.
Making Vikings assault mode stronger will change NOTHING for balance in bio games. It will however, make mech more viable.
Viking ground mode should not be a throwaway "bonus", it should be a CHOICE. Hellions are good in car-mode, so do you need to have a super shitty Battle Mode to compensate? Vikings cost the same as a WARHOUND, but have 1/2 the hp, zero armor, nearly 1/2 the dps, less range, and walk slower. I don't see how a small buff could hurt anyone.
On September 26 2012 05:24 Adonminus wrote: Buffing the ground viking could cause a severe balance problem. Here's two frequent situations that gonna be damaged by this in PvT and ZvT:
1) Protoss makes colossi, you make vikings. Protoss switches to archons. You land vikings, and kill him easily.
2) Zerg makes broodlords, you make vikings. Zerg switches to ultralisks. You land vikings, and kill him easily.
The whole point of tech switches is to gain advantage in order to render the viking useless. The only role of ground mode right now is to be able to give a small buff to your army when the vikings becomes useless instead of having a unit flying around and doing nothing and that already is a significant advantage.
Imagine if vikings couldn't transform, he tech switches to archons and you have 15 vikings flying around and not helping your army at all but as I said, with transform it can still help you, maybe not cost effectively but at least keep you alive and make use of the resources you invested. Buffing the ground viking will make it overpowered.
It's like you're assuming that if they buff ground vikings at all that any buff will instantaneously make them OP and wreck everything thing on the ground and in the air. It's very possible that a buff is introduced that's balance them so that ground mode vikings are good without absolutely shitting on everything.
As for "tech switches are suppose to make units in your army useless", that's debatable, although i would personally argue that it's not really good game design to require hard counters that become useless when the thing they're hard countering stops being made. It turns the game in to more of a silly game of rock-paper scissors more than an actual strategy game.
They aren't completely useless since they can go ground mode and give you a small but not cost effective buff to the army. On the other hand bioball units are quite cost effective against gateway units so you need those splash late tier units to deal with them, and if vikings will trade equally with ground armies, it will neutralizing the advantage of tech switching, this will result into making the bioball armies too cost effective resulting in imbalance. That's why viking must be really bad against ground.
On September 26 2012 06:02 link0 wrote: I don't get how anyone can say that Vikings are the best Air to Air unit. Vikings take FOREVER to land/take off. They are also one of the LOWEST HP units per cost, and one of the slowest air units in the game. This is why they are worse than worthless in harass.
Phoenixes are 2x the speed of a Viking and also beats a Viking 1on1. They are also far more useful for both scouting and harass due to their amazing speed, survivability, and not having to transform to attack ground.
Corruptors also kill vikings 1on1, build faster, move faster, and have way more HP. They also transform into BLs.
Making Vikings assault mode stronger will change NOTHING for balance in bio games. It will however, make mech more viable.
Viking ground mode should not be a throwaway "bonus", it should be a CHOICE. Hellions are good in car-mode, so do you need to have a super shitty Battle Mode to compensate? Vikings cost the same as a WARHOUND, but have 1/2 the hp, zero armor, nearly 1/2 the dps, less range, and walk slower. I don't see how a small buff could hurt anyone.
You're neglecting their huge range, allowing them to kite units and kill them before they reach the vikings. They are glass cannons just like most of terrans units, deal lots of damage but have low hp.
Then as I said it will influence bio, that's why we must search for an alternative solution to buffing mech. Plus it doesn't solve any of the meching issues. Mech has problems against certain timings in the early-mid game, and has problems due to their immobility. The slow speed of vikings won't help mech on the immobility part, and it comes from starport so won't help in early game. And in late game, as already proven, nothing can beat a mech army in a straight up combat so why buff it even more in where it's strong.
On September 26 2012 05:24 Adonminus wrote: Buffing the ground viking could cause a severe balance problem. Here's two frequent situations that gonna be damaged by this in PvT and ZvT:
1) Protoss makes colossi, you make vikings. Protoss switches to archons. You land vikings, and kill him easily.
2) Zerg makes broodlords, you make vikings. Zerg switches to ultralisks. You land vikings, and kill him easily.
The whole point of tech switches is to gain advantage in order to render the viking useless. The only role of ground mode right now is to be able to give a small buff to your army when the vikings becomes useless instead of having a unit flying around and doing nothing and that already is a significant advantage.
Imagine if vikings couldn't transform, he tech switches to archons and you have 15 vikings flying around and not helping your army at all but as I said, with transform it can still help you, maybe not cost effectively but at least keep you alive and make use of the resources you invested. Buffing the ground viking will make it overpowered.
It's like you're assuming that if they buff ground vikings at all that any buff will instantaneously make them OP and wreck everything thing on the ground and in the air. It's very possible that a buff is introduced that's balance them so that ground mode vikings are good without absolutely shitting on everything.
As for "tech switches are suppose to make units in your army useless", that's debatable, although i would personally argue that it's not really good game design to require hard counters that become useless when the thing they're hard countering stops being made. It turns the game in to more of a silly game of rock-paper scissors more than an actual strategy game.
They aren't completely useless since they can go ground mode and give you a small but not cost effective buff to the army. On the other hand bioball units are quite cost effective against gateway units so you need those splash late tier units to deal with them, and if vikings will trade equally with ground armies, it will neutralizing the advantage of tech switching, this will result into making the bioball armies too cost effective resulting in imbalance. That's why viking must be really bad against ground.
A buffed viking will do almost nothing to the typical bio+viking play since vikings do not share bio upgrades and they have no synergy at all with bio in assault mode. Extra corruptors (BLs) or phoenixes (scout/harass) do not cripple you because they both have other uses.
On September 26 2012 05:24 Adonminus wrote: Buffing the ground viking could cause a severe balance problem. Here's two frequent situations that gonna be damaged by this in PvT and ZvT:
1) Protoss makes colossi, you make vikings. Protoss switches to archons. You land vikings, and kill him easily.
2) Zerg makes broodlords, you make vikings. Zerg switches to ultralisks. You land vikings, and kill him easily.
The whole point of tech switches is to gain advantage in order to render the viking useless. The only role of ground mode right now is to be able to give a small buff to your army when the vikings becomes useless instead of having a unit flying around and doing nothing and that already is a significant advantage.
Imagine if vikings couldn't transform, he tech switches to archons and you have 15 vikings flying around and not helping your army at all but as I said, with transform it can still help you, maybe not cost effectively but at least keep you alive and make use of the resources you invested. Buffing the ground viking will make it overpowered.
It's like you're assuming that if they buff ground vikings at all that any buff will instantaneously make them OP and wreck everything thing on the ground and in the air. It's very possible that a buff is introduced that's balance them so that ground mode vikings are good without absolutely shitting on everything.
As for "tech switches are suppose to make units in your army useless", that's debatable, although i would personally argue that it's not really good game design to require hard counters that become useless when the thing they're hard countering stops being made. It turns the game in to more of a silly game of rock-paper scissors more than an actual strategy game.
They aren't completely useless since they can go ground mode and give you a small but not cost effective buff to the army. On the other hand bioball units are quite cost effective against gateway units so you need those splash late tier units to deal with them, and if vikings will trade equally with ground armies, it will neutralizing the advantage of tech switching, this will result into making the bioball armies too cost effective resulting in imbalance. That's why viking must be really bad against ground.
A buffed viking will do almost nothing to the typical bio+viking play since vikings do not share bio upgrades and they have no synergy at all with bio in assault mode. Extra corruptors (BLs) or phoenixes (scout/harass) do not cripple you because they both have other uses.
if you buff ground mode they obv are good with bio. why shoudlnt they? every T player lands his vikings after killing all colossus/BLs to give buffer and huge extra damage which is fine right now. there is just no need to buff one of the best T units and meanwhile this discussion is really getting funny since some of you just want an alllround good unit for an easy peasy game. but guess what blizzard wont listen to you since the viking is fine :-)
On September 26 2012 03:16 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote: I think a lot of people are missing the main point. the point is vikings have ground mode now... and why do they have ground mode now? they don't really serve any purpose in ground mode at the moment so why does it even exist... i'd rather have a corruption ability or a graviton beam like the other air to air's than a pointless ground mode... make it worth while to go ground mode... give it some purpose, or just scrap it completely instead of leaving it in as a pointless ability.
edit: and while i'm on pointles abilities blizzard for the love of god can you PLEASE do somethign with the thor's 250mm cannon strike, can we please get an ability that is seen in more than 1-2% of games played on b.net and tournaments... please?
they have 12 dps and beat a hydra...seems like their ground attack is superstrong already....it just doesnt beat everything lol.
Thank you for not reading my post. in response to your post after reading it, your comparison of a viking vs hydra might not be the best if you're against the viking ground mode receiving a buff. the reason is because everyone complains about how weak the hydra is and blizzard is actually changing the hydralisk. also in a real game you don't see hydra vs viking ground mode. hydra's are utilized behind a strong unit because of their low survivability and high (14.5) dps, vikings are too clunky to be utilized efficiently behind a buffer unit, (you can't fit as many in a space as you can hydras) and in a real game scenario do SUBSTANTIALLY less dps because of this. let alone doing less dps alone, 12dps vs 14.5...
vikings have a ground mode, why do they have a ground mode? what was blizzard trying to achieve by giving them this? the air to air units of other races have abilities that clearly show what their role is and they are used much more often to fulfil that role than the viking is used to fulfill their unknown role
12 dps to 14,5 is a bad comparison since viking has a lot more hp and EASILY wins a fight vs hydras. and no you are wrong. hydras are NOT getting buffed! they get speed at hivetech that makes them faster offcreep but still slower as they are now oncreep so the hydra itself will still be the sucky unit and will hopefully get a buff but thats not the topic here.
the topic is that vikings are REALLY good antiair and have a ground damage as a bonus if you have killed colossi/BLs etc. you get to have a 12 dps ground attack that is a great buffer with 125 hp (almost as tanky as a roach) for free as a bonus. so dont complain about a unit that is superfine. you terrans should rather discuss widow mines etc. and not one of your best units.
12 dps to 14,5 is a bad comparison since viking has a lot more hp and EASILY wins a fight vs hydras.
This is exactly why I said your comparison of a viking vs a hydra might not be the best. You don't fight with hydra's up front, directly vs a unit unless you're a bad player, or the rare 2 base timing. You fight with hydra's behind a roach to tank damage because hydra's have low hp. I was simply stating that hydra's do more DPS than a viking, Especially how much more tightly hydras can clump together in a battle scenario. So... it's not really helping you're argument against viking ground mode receiving a CHANGE to say, "vikings beat hydra's"
and no you are wrong. hydras are NOT getting buffed!
Okay, please like i mentioned in my previous post, PLEASE read my posts before quoting me and saying i'm wrong... where did i ever say in my post that the hydralisk is receiving a buff? I stated that blizzard is changing the hydralisk because so many people complained. I am fully aware of the speed increase off creep. since you say that it's not a buff, and i never said it was a buff, then i think it's safe to say it's a change to the unit addressing a problem zergs face with hydralisks. more to the topic of this thread, perhaps blizzard can come up with some sort of "change" to the ground viking that can address the problems the ground viking faces, it's clunky so it's dps in a battle scenario is weak directly because of this, and it doesn't have much of a purpose.
It already DOES have a purpose: it lets Terran players overproduce Vikings to quickly shut down Colossi, and then use Ground Mode to let those Vikings tank for the Marines.
this literally just want's to make me cry how dumb this statement is.
On September 26 2012 03:16 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote: I think a lot of people are missing the main point. the point is vikings have ground mode now... and why do they have ground mode now? they don't really serve any purpose in ground mode at the moment so why does it even exist... i'd rather have a corruption ability or a graviton beam like the other air to air's than a pointless ground mode... make it worth while to go ground mode... give it some purpose, or just scrap it completely instead of leaving it in as a pointless ability.
edit: and while i'm on pointles abilities blizzard for the love of god can you PLEASE do somethign with the thor's 250mm cannon strike, can we please get an ability that is seen in more than 1-2% of games played on b.net and tournaments... please?
they have 12 dps and beat a hydra...seems like their ground attack is superstrong already....it just doesnt beat everything lol.
Thank you for not reading my post. in response to your post after reading it, your comparison of a viking vs hydra might not be the best if you're against the viking ground mode receiving a buff. the reason is because everyone complains about how weak the hydra is and blizzard is actually changing the hydralisk. also in a real game you don't see hydra vs viking ground mode. hydra's are utilized behind a strong unit because of their low survivability and high (14.5) dps, vikings are too clunky to be utilized efficiently behind a buffer unit, (you can't fit as many in a space as you can hydras) and in a real game scenario do SUBSTANTIALLY less dps because of this. let alone doing less dps alone, 12dps vs 14.5...
vikings have a ground mode, why do they have a ground mode? what was blizzard trying to achieve by giving them this? the air to air units of other races have abilities that clearly show what their role is and they are used much more often to fulfil that role than the viking is used to fulfill their unknown role
12 dps to 14,5 is a bad comparison since viking has a lot more hp and EASILY wins a fight vs hydras. and no you are wrong. hydras are NOT getting buffed! they get speed at hivetech that makes them faster offcreep but still slower as they are now oncreep so the hydra itself will still be the sucky unit and will hopefully get a buff but thats not the topic here.
the topic is that vikings are REALLY good antiair and have a ground damage as a bonus if you have killed colossi/BLs etc. you get to have a 12 dps ground attack that is a great buffer with 125 hp (almost as tanky as a roach) for free as a bonus. so dont complain about a unit that is superfine. you terrans should rather discuss widow mines etc. and not one of your best units.
12 dps to 14,5 is a bad comparison since viking has a lot more hp and EASILY wins a fight vs hydras.
This is exactly why I said your comparison of a viking vs a hydra might not be the best. You don't fight with hydra's up front, directly vs a unit unless you're a bad player, or the rare 2 base timing. You fight with hydra's behind a roach to tank damage because hydra's have low hp. I was simply stating that hydra's do more DPS than a viking, Especially how much more tightly hydras can clump together in a battle scenario. So... it's not really helping you're argument against viking ground mode receiving a CHANGE to say, "vikings beat hydra's"
and no you are wrong. hydras are NOT getting buffed!
Okay, please like i mentioned in my previous post, PLEASE read my posts before quoting me and saying i'm wrong... where did i ever say in my post that the hydralisk is receiving a buff? I stated that blizzard is changing the hydralisk because so many people complained. I am fully aware of the speed increase off creep. since you say that it's not a buff, and i never said it was a buff, then i think it's safe to say it's a change to the unit addressing a problem zergs face with hydralisks. more to the topic of this thread, perhaps blizzard can come up with some sort of "change" to the ground viking that can address the problems the ground viking faces, it's clunky so it's dps in a battle scenario is weak directly because of this, and it doesn't have much of a purpose.
It already DOES have a purpose: it lets Terran players overproduce Vikings to quickly shut down Colossi, and then use Ground Mode to let those Vikings tank for the Marines.
this literally just want's to make me cry how dumb this statement is.
the hydra was only an example. like i wrote they do fine vs EVERY ground unit (fine DOESNT mean win because then every T would just build 70 vikings and win every game).
after killing colossi they DO tank for MMM. are you kidding me? watch ANY pro stream where 10 vikings = 1250 hp to kill doesnt tank vs zealots. if you say otherwise you never have done it or just use useless arguments to get your vikingbuff which will never gonna happen because it is and AA unit (a great one) and has a good bonus which is ground attack.
On September 23 2012 01:03 mannerless wrote: I don't know why the fuck Blizzard hasn't thought about merging armory upgrades yet...Instead of having separate upgrades for ships and vehicles just add a fucking "Machines" upgrade that works for factory and Starport. With mech being way shittier than it was in Broodwar there is no reason to make it have a different upgrade path, not to mention that for some reason ship plating is expensive (starting at 150/150) for no goddamn reason other than it being like that in BW (which blizz insists they don't wanna copy).
I think this change alone would give people an incentive on using the current factory units, you wouldn't even need to buff Vikings maybe.
you say that like it was an obvious change that needs to be done. Vikings need a buff, that's a fact, but there might be other opinions than yours that are valid.
Don't rage on blizzard like a 13 years old without a valid point, or at least, not in these forums -.-
On the other hand, I agree with the 14 totaldmg / 2 bursts, but more or less on the upgrade part. It would be nice to be able as a terran to upgrade mech weapon in tvz lets say, and when the zerg transition to hive tech, you already have your viking ugpraded, but I feel it would be too strong of an upgrade.
Ground Vikings seem like they could be a possible fix to mech, but balancing them so that they aren't able to be massed but still powerful to be effective will be tricky.
On September 26 2012 03:16 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote: I think a lot of people are missing the main point. the point is vikings have ground mode now... and why do they have ground mode now? they don't really serve any purpose in ground mode at the moment so why does it even exist... i'd rather have a corruption ability or a graviton beam like the other air to air's than a pointless ground mode... make it worth while to go ground mode... give it some purpose, or just scrap it completely instead of leaving it in as a pointless ability.
edit: and while i'm on pointles abilities blizzard for the love of god can you PLEASE do somethign with the thor's 250mm cannon strike, can we please get an ability that is seen in more than 1-2% of games played on b.net and tournaments... please?
they have 12 dps and beat a hydra...seems like their ground attack is superstrong already....it just doesnt beat everything lol.
Thank you for not reading my post. in response to your post after reading it, your comparison of a viking vs hydra might not be the best if you're against the viking ground mode receiving a buff. the reason is because everyone complains about how weak the hydra is and blizzard is actually changing the hydralisk. also in a real game you don't see hydra vs viking ground mode. hydra's are utilized behind a strong unit because of their low survivability and high (14.5) dps, vikings are too clunky to be utilized efficiently behind a buffer unit, (you can't fit as many in a space as you can hydras) and in a real game scenario do SUBSTANTIALLY less dps because of this. let alone doing less dps alone, 12dps vs 14.5...
vikings have a ground mode, why do they have a ground mode? what was blizzard trying to achieve by giving them this? the air to air units of other races have abilities that clearly show what their role is and they are used much more often to fulfil that role than the viking is used to fulfill their unknown role
12 dps to 14,5 is a bad comparison since viking has a lot more hp and EASILY wins a fight vs hydras. and no you are wrong. hydras are NOT getting buffed! they get speed at hivetech that makes them faster offcreep but still slower as they are now oncreep so the hydra itself will still be the sucky unit and will hopefully get a buff but thats not the topic here.
the topic is that vikings are REALLY good antiair and have a ground damage as a bonus if you have killed colossi/BLs etc. you get to have a 12 dps ground attack that is a great buffer with 125 hp (almost as tanky as a roach) for free as a bonus. so dont complain about a unit that is superfine. you terrans should rather discuss widow mines etc. and not one of your best units.
12 dps to 14,5 is a bad comparison since viking has a lot more hp and EASILY wins a fight vs hydras.
This is exactly why I said your comparison of a viking vs a hydra might not be the best. You don't fight with hydra's up front, directly vs a unit unless you're a bad player, or the rare 2 base timing. You fight with hydra's behind a roach to tank damage because hydra's have low hp. I was simply stating that hydra's do more DPS than a viking, Especially how much more tightly hydras can clump together in a battle scenario. So... it's not really helping you're argument against viking ground mode receiving a CHANGE to say, "vikings beat hydra's"
and no you are wrong. hydras are NOT getting buffed!
Okay, please like i mentioned in my previous post, PLEASE read my posts before quoting me and saying i'm wrong... where did i ever say in my post that the hydralisk is receiving a buff? I stated that blizzard is changing the hydralisk because so many people complained. I am fully aware of the speed increase off creep. since you say that it's not a buff, and i never said it was a buff, then i think it's safe to say it's a change to the unit addressing a problem zergs face with hydralisks. more to the topic of this thread, perhaps blizzard can come up with some sort of "change" to the ground viking that can address the problems the ground viking faces, it's clunky so it's dps in a battle scenario is weak directly because of this, and it doesn't have much of a purpose.
It already DOES have a purpose: it lets Terran players overproduce Vikings to quickly shut down Colossi, and then use Ground Mode to let those Vikings tank for the Marines.
this literally just want's to make me cry how dumb this statement is.
the hydra was only an example. like i wrote they do fine vs EVERY ground unit (fine DOESNT mean win because then every T would just build 70 vikings and win every game).
after killing colossi they DO tank for MMM. are you kidding me? watch ANY pro stream where 10 vikings = 1250 hp to kill doesnt tank vs zealots. if you say otherwise you never have done it or just use useless arguments to get your vikingbuff which will never gonna happen because it is and AA unit (a great one) and has a good bonus which is ground attack.
I wanted to cry because that guy is basically saying the vikings purpose is to allow players to play bad. overbuilding vikings then landing them to to die just to tank for mmm is a very bad starcraft player... you will never see a pro building vikings to land them and use them as tanks, it's always as a last resort when they've usually already lost or you see them land as an insult after they completely crush a protoss army yeah, but to be used as tanks for mmm? i'm pretty sure blizzard's intention of the ground viking wasn't for them to be used as tanks, especially with their low hp per cost.
i'm just trying to figure out what was/is blizzards intention for the ground viking? what is it good at? you say tanking for mmm, it's deffinately not good at that. the fight is either heavily one way and the landed vikings are just their rub it in, or it's the opposite and half the fleet of vikings is dead before they touch the gound while intransition, and the remaining are dead in mere seconds with it's low hp per cost. if blizzard truly intended the ground viking on being a tank for mmm then I would argue that it needs a DRASTIC buff. However, i don't believe this is what they wanted for the ground viking.
why is it in the game, what did they want it to do? it's HOTS and now is the time to look at this. it just doesn't make sense to me that they purposely put it in the game to be low armor, low hp per cost meatshield. I just think it could be something that actually serves a purpose if changed, because using ground vikings now just feels so pointless. i'm not asking for a buff, i'm just asking to give them sort of change to give them a purpose. have you ever seen/heard a pro gamer complain about losing a game because of ground vikings?
On September 26 2012 03:16 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote: I think a lot of people are missing the main point. the point is vikings have ground mode now... and why do they have ground mode now? they don't really serve any purpose in ground mode at the moment so why does it even exist... i'd rather have a corruption ability or a graviton beam like the other air to air's than a pointless ground mode... make it worth while to go ground mode... give it some purpose, or just scrap it completely instead of leaving it in as a pointless ability.
edit: and while i'm on pointles abilities blizzard for the love of god can you PLEASE do somethign with the thor's 250mm cannon strike, can we please get an ability that is seen in more than 1-2% of games played on b.net and tournaments... please?
they have 12 dps and beat a hydra...seems like their ground attack is superstrong already....it just doesnt beat everything lol.
Thank you for not reading my post. in response to your post after reading it, your comparison of a viking vs hydra might not be the best if you're against the viking ground mode receiving a buff. the reason is because everyone complains about how weak the hydra is and blizzard is actually changing the hydralisk. also in a real game you don't see hydra vs viking ground mode. hydra's are utilized behind a strong unit because of their low survivability and high (14.5) dps, vikings are too clunky to be utilized efficiently behind a buffer unit, (you can't fit as many in a space as you can hydras) and in a real game scenario do SUBSTANTIALLY less dps because of this. let alone doing less dps alone, 12dps vs 14.5...
vikings have a ground mode, why do they have a ground mode? what was blizzard trying to achieve by giving them this? the air to air units of other races have abilities that clearly show what their role is and they are used much more often to fulfil that role than the viking is used to fulfill their unknown role
12 dps to 14,5 is a bad comparison since viking has a lot more hp and EASILY wins a fight vs hydras. and no you are wrong. hydras are NOT getting buffed! they get speed at hivetech that makes them faster offcreep but still slower as they are now oncreep so the hydra itself will still be the sucky unit and will hopefully get a buff but thats not the topic here.
the topic is that vikings are REALLY good antiair and have a ground damage as a bonus if you have killed colossi/BLs etc. you get to have a 12 dps ground attack that is a great buffer with 125 hp (almost as tanky as a roach) for free as a bonus. so dont complain about a unit that is superfine. you terrans should rather discuss widow mines etc. and not one of your best units.
12 dps to 14,5 is a bad comparison since viking has a lot more hp and EASILY wins a fight vs hydras.
This is exactly why I said your comparison of a viking vs a hydra might not be the best. You don't fight with hydra's up front, directly vs a unit unless you're a bad player, or the rare 2 base timing. You fight with hydra's behind a roach to tank damage because hydra's have low hp. I was simply stating that hydra's do more DPS than a viking, Especially how much more tightly hydras can clump together in a battle scenario. So... it's not really helping you're argument against viking ground mode receiving a CHANGE to say, "vikings beat hydra's"
and no you are wrong. hydras are NOT getting buffed!
Okay, please like i mentioned in my previous post, PLEASE read my posts before quoting me and saying i'm wrong... where did i ever say in my post that the hydralisk is receiving a buff? I stated that blizzard is changing the hydralisk because so many people complained. I am fully aware of the speed increase off creep. since you say that it's not a buff, and i never said it was a buff, then i think it's safe to say it's a change to the unit addressing a problem zergs face with hydralisks. more to the topic of this thread, perhaps blizzard can come up with some sort of "change" to the ground viking that can address the problems the ground viking faces, it's clunky so it's dps in a battle scenario is weak directly because of this, and it doesn't have much of a purpose.
It already DOES have a purpose: it lets Terran players overproduce Vikings to quickly shut down Colossi, and then use Ground Mode to let those Vikings tank for the Marines.
this literally just want's to make me cry how dumb this statement is.
the hydra was only an example. like i wrote they do fine vs EVERY ground unit (fine DOESNT mean win because then every T would just build 70 vikings and win every game).
after killing colossi they DO tank for MMM. are you kidding me? watch ANY pro stream where 10 vikings = 1250 hp to kill doesnt tank vs zealots. if you say otherwise you never have done it or just use useless arguments to get your vikingbuff which will never gonna happen because it is and AA unit (a great one) and has a good bonus which is ground attack.
I wanted to cry because that guy is basically saying the vikings purpose is to allow players to play bad. overbuilding vikings then landing them to to die just to tank for mmm is a very bad starcraft player... you will never see a pro using vikings as tanks, you see them land as an insult after they completely crush a protoss army yeah, but to be used as tanks for mmm? i'm pretty sure blizzard's intention of the ground viking wasn't for them to be used as tanks, especially with their low hp per cost.
i'm just trying to figure out what was/is blizzards intention for the ground viking? what is it good at? you say tanking for mmm, it's deffinately not good at that. the fight is either heavily one way and the landed vikings are just their rub it in, or it's the opposite and half the fleet of vikings is dead before they touch the gound while intransition, and the remaining are dead in mere seconds with it's low hp per cost. if blizzard truly intended the ground viking on being a tank for mmm then I would argue that it needs a DRASTIC buff. However, i don't believe this is what they wanted for the ground viking.
why is it in the game, what did they want it to do? it's HOTS and now is the time to look at this. it just doesn't make sense to me that they purposely put it in the game to be low armor, low hp per cost meatshield. I just think it could be something that actually serves a purpose if changed, because using ground vikings now just feels so pointless.
did you watch flash today? he massively overbuilds vikings in TvP to fastly bring down colossus and instantly lands them after colossus are dead while kiting with his MMM and landing vikings between MMM and warp ins of toss. so flash might disagree with you.
i still dont get the whole discussion though. they are supposed to kill air units and they are good at that. as a bonus they get a really nice bonus. corruptor has corruption which is a bonus but sucks so incredibly more than ground mode vikings.
On September 26 2012 03:16 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote: I think a lot of people are missing the main point. the point is vikings have ground mode now... and why do they have ground mode now? they don't really serve any purpose in ground mode at the moment so why does it even exist... i'd rather have a corruption ability or a graviton beam like the other air to air's than a pointless ground mode... make it worth while to go ground mode... give it some purpose, or just scrap it completely instead of leaving it in as a pointless ability.
edit: and while i'm on pointles abilities blizzard for the love of god can you PLEASE do somethign with the thor's 250mm cannon strike, can we please get an ability that is seen in more than 1-2% of games played on b.net and tournaments... please?
they have 12 dps and beat a hydra...seems like their ground attack is superstrong already....it just doesnt beat everything lol.
Thank you for not reading my post. in response to your post after reading it, your comparison of a viking vs hydra might not be the best if you're against the viking ground mode receiving a buff. the reason is because everyone complains about how weak the hydra is and blizzard is actually changing the hydralisk. also in a real game you don't see hydra vs viking ground mode. hydra's are utilized behind a strong unit because of their low survivability and high (14.5) dps, vikings are too clunky to be utilized efficiently behind a buffer unit, (you can't fit as many in a space as you can hydras) and in a real game scenario do SUBSTANTIALLY less dps because of this. let alone doing less dps alone, 12dps vs 14.5...
vikings have a ground mode, why do they have a ground mode? what was blizzard trying to achieve by giving them this? the air to air units of other races have abilities that clearly show what their role is and they are used much more often to fulfil that role than the viking is used to fulfill their unknown role
12 dps to 14,5 is a bad comparison since viking has a lot more hp and EASILY wins a fight vs hydras. and no you are wrong. hydras are NOT getting buffed! they get speed at hivetech that makes them faster offcreep but still slower as they are now oncreep so the hydra itself will still be the sucky unit and will hopefully get a buff but thats not the topic here.
the topic is that vikings are REALLY good antiair and have a ground damage as a bonus if you have killed colossi/BLs etc. you get to have a 12 dps ground attack that is a great buffer with 125 hp (almost as tanky as a roach) for free as a bonus. so dont complain about a unit that is superfine. you terrans should rather discuss widow mines etc. and not one of your best units.
12 dps to 14,5 is a bad comparison since viking has a lot more hp and EASILY wins a fight vs hydras.
This is exactly why I said your comparison of a viking vs a hydra might not be the best. You don't fight with hydra's up front, directly vs a unit unless you're a bad player, or the rare 2 base timing. You fight with hydra's behind a roach to tank damage because hydra's have low hp. I was simply stating that hydra's do more DPS than a viking, Especially how much more tightly hydras can clump together in a battle scenario. So... it's not really helping you're argument against viking ground mode receiving a CHANGE to say, "vikings beat hydra's"
and no you are wrong. hydras are NOT getting buffed!
Okay, please like i mentioned in my previous post, PLEASE read my posts before quoting me and saying i'm wrong... where did i ever say in my post that the hydralisk is receiving a buff? I stated that blizzard is changing the hydralisk because so many people complained. I am fully aware of the speed increase off creep. since you say that it's not a buff, and i never said it was a buff, then i think it's safe to say it's a change to the unit addressing a problem zergs face with hydralisks. more to the topic of this thread, perhaps blizzard can come up with some sort of "change" to the ground viking that can address the problems the ground viking faces, it's clunky so it's dps in a battle scenario is weak directly because of this, and it doesn't have much of a purpose.
It already DOES have a purpose: it lets Terran players overproduce Vikings to quickly shut down Colossi, and then use Ground Mode to let those Vikings tank for the Marines.
this literally just want's to make me cry how dumb this statement is.
the hydra was only an example. like i wrote they do fine vs EVERY ground unit (fine DOESNT mean win because then every T would just build 70 vikings and win every game).
after killing colossi they DO tank for MMM. are you kidding me? watch ANY pro stream where 10 vikings = 1250 hp to kill doesnt tank vs zealots. if you say otherwise you never have done it or just use useless arguments to get your vikingbuff which will never gonna happen because it is and AA unit (a great one) and has a good bonus which is ground attack.
I wanted to cry because that guy is basically saying the vikings purpose is to allow players to play bad. overbuilding vikings then landing them to to die just to tank for mmm is a very bad starcraft player... you will never see a pro using vikings as tanks, you see them land as an insult after they completely crush a protoss army yeah, but to be used as tanks for mmm? i'm pretty sure blizzard's intention of the ground viking wasn't for them to be used as tanks, especially with their low hp per cost.
i'm just trying to figure out what was/is blizzards intention for the ground viking? what is it good at? you say tanking for mmm, it's deffinately not good at that. the fight is either heavily one way and the landed vikings are just their rub it in, or it's the opposite and half the fleet of vikings is dead before they touch the gound while intransition, and the remaining are dead in mere seconds with it's low hp per cost. if blizzard truly intended the ground viking on being a tank for mmm then I would argue that it needs a DRASTIC buff. However, i don't believe this is what they wanted for the ground viking.
why is it in the game, what did they want it to do? it's HOTS and now is the time to look at this. it just doesn't make sense to me that they purposely put it in the game to be low armor, low hp per cost meatshield. I just think it could be something that actually serves a purpose if changed, because using ground vikings now just feels so pointless.
did you watch flash today? he massively overbuilds vikings in TvP to fastly bring down colossus and instantly lands them after colossus are dead while kiting with his MMM and landing vikings between MMM and warp ins of toss. so flash might disagree with you.
i still dont get the whole discussion though. they are supposed to kill air units and they are good at that. as a bonus they get a really nice bonus. corruptor has corruption which is a bonus but sucks so incredibly more than ground mode vikings.
air vikings are supposed to kill air units, corruptors are supposed to kill air units, corruption ability is supposed to help corruptors kill massive units, ground vikings are supposed to... ? be a low hp per cost clunky slow suicide unit?
edit* i'll check out flash's game when i can, i didn't catch it. but i'm sure it's just like every other time i see landed vikings vs protoss, when a protoss makes a mistake and the battles pretty much already over before the vikings land and the landed vikings just help motivate the player to GG, kind of like how players drop mules after a battle, maybe that's what their purpose is
This would be a good idea, from what I've played mech still gets easily rolled over. I may not be playing it well but another unit to mix in could help it a lot.
Has anyone else noticed that widow mines HAVE to be on a separate hot key? Otherwise when theyre burrowed you cant move a move your army.
Guys, the Viking is the Goliath. Same dps, same movement speed and used to have the same base armor.
Why they're Goliath-1, they're ship upgrades not vehicle upgrades. They now have no base armor. They're ineffective clumped up. They NEED to transform to hit air that's 1 to 3 free shots from any unit.
I propose a researchable hybrid mode that flies that shoots both air and ground but terrible mobility, same dps as wraith (8).
On September 26 2012 03:16 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote: I think a lot of people are missing the main point. the point is vikings have ground mode now... and why do they have ground mode now? they don't really serve any purpose in ground mode at the moment so why does it even exist... i'd rather have a corruption ability or a graviton beam like the other air to air's than a pointless ground mode... make it worth while to go ground mode... give it some purpose, or just scrap it completely instead of leaving it in as a pointless ability.
edit: and while i'm on pointles abilities blizzard for the love of god can you PLEASE do somethign with the thor's 250mm cannon strike, can we please get an ability that is seen in more than 1-2% of games played on b.net and tournaments... please?
they have 12 dps and beat a hydra...seems like their ground attack is superstrong already....it just doesnt beat everything lol.
Thank you for not reading my post. in response to your post after reading it, your comparison of a viking vs hydra might not be the best if you're against the viking ground mode receiving a buff. the reason is because everyone complains about how weak the hydra is and blizzard is actually changing the hydralisk. also in a real game you don't see hydra vs viking ground mode. hydra's are utilized behind a strong unit because of their low survivability and high (14.5) dps, vikings are too clunky to be utilized efficiently behind a buffer unit, (you can't fit as many in a space as you can hydras) and in a real game scenario do SUBSTANTIALLY less dps because of this. let alone doing less dps alone, 12dps vs 14.5...
vikings have a ground mode, why do they have a ground mode? what was blizzard trying to achieve by giving them this? the air to air units of other races have abilities that clearly show what their role is and they are used much more often to fulfil that role than the viking is used to fulfill their unknown role
12 dps to 14,5 is a bad comparison since viking has a lot more hp and EASILY wins a fight vs hydras. and no you are wrong. hydras are NOT getting buffed! they get speed at hivetech that makes them faster offcreep but still slower as they are now oncreep so the hydra itself will still be the sucky unit and will hopefully get a buff but thats not the topic here.
the topic is that vikings are REALLY good antiair and have a ground damage as a bonus if you have killed colossi/BLs etc. you get to have a 12 dps ground attack that is a great buffer with 125 hp (almost as tanky as a roach) for free as a bonus. so dont complain about a unit that is superfine. you terrans should rather discuss widow mines etc. and not one of your best units.
12 dps to 14,5 is a bad comparison since viking has a lot more hp and EASILY wins a fight vs hydras.
This is exactly why I said your comparison of a viking vs a hydra might not be the best. You don't fight with hydra's up front, directly vs a unit unless you're a bad player, or the rare 2 base timing. You fight with hydra's behind a roach to tank damage because hydra's have low hp. I was simply stating that hydra's do more DPS than a viking, Especially how much more tightly hydras can clump together in a battle scenario. So... it's not really helping you're argument against viking ground mode receiving a CHANGE to say, "vikings beat hydra's"
and no you are wrong. hydras are NOT getting buffed!
Okay, please like i mentioned in my previous post, PLEASE read my posts before quoting me and saying i'm wrong... where did i ever say in my post that the hydralisk is receiving a buff? I stated that blizzard is changing the hydralisk because so many people complained. I am fully aware of the speed increase off creep. since you say that it's not a buff, and i never said it was a buff, then i think it's safe to say it's a change to the unit addressing a problem zergs face with hydralisks. more to the topic of this thread, perhaps blizzard can come up with some sort of "change" to the ground viking that can address the problems the ground viking faces, it's clunky so it's dps in a battle scenario is weak directly because of this, and it doesn't have much of a purpose.
It already DOES have a purpose: it lets Terran players overproduce Vikings to quickly shut down Colossi, and then use Ground Mode to let those Vikings tank for the Marines.
this literally just want's to make me cry how dumb this statement is.
the hydra was only an example. like i wrote they do fine vs EVERY ground unit (fine DOESNT mean win because then every T would just build 70 vikings and win every game).
after killing colossi they DO tank for MMM. are you kidding me? watch ANY pro stream where 10 vikings = 1250 hp to kill doesnt tank vs zealots. if you say otherwise you never have done it or just use useless arguments to get your vikingbuff which will never gonna happen because it is and AA unit (a great one) and has a good bonus which is ground attack.
I wanted to cry because that guy is basically saying the vikings purpose is to allow players to play bad. overbuilding vikings then landing them to to die just to tank for mmm is a very bad starcraft player... you will never see a pro using vikings as tanks, you see them land as an insult after they completely crush a protoss army yeah, but to be used as tanks for mmm? i'm pretty sure blizzard's intention of the ground viking wasn't for them to be used as tanks, especially with their low hp per cost.
i'm just trying to figure out what was/is blizzards intention for the ground viking? what is it good at? you say tanking for mmm, it's deffinately not good at that. the fight is either heavily one way and the landed vikings are just their rub it in, or it's the opposite and half the fleet of vikings is dead before they touch the gound while intransition, and the remaining are dead in mere seconds with it's low hp per cost. if blizzard truly intended the ground viking on being a tank for mmm then I would argue that it needs a DRASTIC buff. However, i don't believe this is what they wanted for the ground viking.
why is it in the game, what did they want it to do? it's HOTS and now is the time to look at this. it just doesn't make sense to me that they purposely put it in the game to be low armor, low hp per cost meatshield. I just think it could be something that actually serves a purpose if changed, because using ground vikings now just feels so pointless.
did you watch flash today? he massively overbuilds vikings in TvP to fastly bring down colossus and instantly lands them after colossus are dead while kiting with his MMM and landing vikings between MMM and warp ins of toss. so flash might disagree with you.
i still dont get the whole discussion though. they are supposed to kill air units and they are good at that. as a bonus they get a really nice bonus. corruptor has corruption which is a bonus but sucks so incredibly more than ground mode vikings.
Flash stopped overbuilding after there was templar tech along with colo.
At the timing before templar tech, overmaking viking is good because they can trade inefficiently against the stalker/colo, while your bio survives and mops everything else.
But with storm, which Killer never made, it is not longer possible to get that same efficient exchange with overmade vikings. Because storm makes it way too inefficient, so vikings have to move with the terran army.That's why you saw a much more conservative viking count in the late game, just enough to make sure there is consistent DPS going onto the colo.
Would really really love to see Blizzard play with this idea.
If they do buff the assault mode I feel it would require some sore of sacrifice to make sure they don't become OP like in the Beta. Maybe significantly increasing they transform time, or only allowing them to transform twice all game. Something along those lines. But would be really awesome. Totally agree with everyone stating that upgrades would need to carry over or some compromise made.
I'd be fine with making the transformation faster, or maybe the change from 12x1 to 6x2 attack so they scale better with upgrades. Vikings on the ground are actually decent as it is, being roughly equivalent to two marines. Contrary to what a vocal minority of people in this thread are saying, transforming to ground mode is a far better ability than corruption or graviton beam.
I play random and quite frankly am suprised terrans think ground mode vikings are so weak when I see them used in ground mode quite frequently in pro level games.
I think the biggest problem is not Viking's damage, but health. Viking has only 125 health but Armored. It is one of the most vulnerable unit in the game when it is on the ground. The ground damage is OK on my view.
I can get behind a buff to landed vikings. That or a merging of the air+ground mech upgrades into ground and air machine upgrades that apply to both. Vikings are actually a really cool unit, and Terran seems to be getting a transformer theme with the addition of the battle hellion. A buff to the landed viking would be a great, as long as it keeps it "mech". The problem I see is that it can just lift and fly so easily that it would be nearly impossible to balance and it would be very mobile compared to standard mech.
The fact that Terran have the most expensive production buildings and thus have the hardest time transitioning seems to suggest to me that their units should be the easiest to upgrade. A lot of the problems with late game Terran play in WoL seem like they would at least be helped somewhat by combining ship and ground mechanical weapons upgrades, which would make a transition into viable late game air compositions a bit easier, compensating for what I do think is a macro disadvantage in the late game for Terran.
The late game role of Goliaths was to limit harass as Sc:BW mech was quite immobile. Of course Siege tanks were much more powerful then and a single 200/200 ball was not needed.
Which is why I'm suggesting a siege mode for Vikings. This fills the gap in the HOTS Terran army that a Widow mine could fill, albeit more expensively (loss of the mine).
On September 26 2012 03:16 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote: I think a lot of people are missing the main point. the point is vikings have ground mode now... and why do they have ground mode now? they don't really serve any purpose in ground mode at the moment so why does it even exist... i'd rather have a corruption ability or a graviton beam like the other air to air's than a pointless ground mode... make it worth while to go ground mode... give it some purpose, or just scrap it completely instead of leaving it in as a pointless ability.
edit: and while i'm on pointles abilities blizzard for the love of god can you PLEASE do somethign with the thor's 250mm cannon strike, can we please get an ability that is seen in more than 1-2% of games played on b.net and tournaments... please?
It already DOES have a purpose: it lets Terran players overproduce Vikings to quickly shut down Colossi, and then use Ground Mode to let those Vikings tank for the Marines.
And this is the wrong thread for discussing Strike Cannons, but I already discussed it here.
You're kidding right? 90% of the time you overproduce Vikings you're screwed... Vikings are laughable on the ground against Protoss
Of course it's still possible to overproduce. If it wasn't, the Viking would be overpowered. What Ground Mode does is allow you a lot more leeway. If there was no ground mode, Terran players would have to have EXACTLY the right number of Vikings or lose engagements badly.
I recently thought about Blizzard taking the warhound out of the game and the following musing, that mech may never be a viable option in the TvP metagame. While the widowmine and the battle-hellion seem to improve the situation of Mech-TvP at the moment, I was still not content with the current state of the metagame. For I have no access to the Beta, I am speaking from a viewer's point of view.
In my opinion, Mech is lacking some salt, literally speaking. Because it is unlikely for the warhound to return, some other units may have to take its role. I then took a closer look at the existing units and a simple thought crossed my mind.
There are many cool features in starcraft 2 who never really crossed the border between „important for the gameplay in general“ and „gimmicky/important only in special situations“:
Look for example at the Colossus Cliffwalk – a nice idea, which negated by the lack of cliffs in most open battlefields.
Another example is the use of burrow roaches – originally designed to burrow roaches in a battle and give them the chance to regenerate life super fast. This is negated by a change of the roach concept in general.
Another one of those gimmicky abilities may be the viking's ability to transform. The viking is mainly used as a capable long range anti air fighter and it does fullfill this role suitably. But Ground-Vikings have little to no influence to the gameplay, because they do not fullfill a role and/or because they totally lack punch and/or hitpoints.
To me, it seems very interesting to change something about that. By including a single uprade to its damage, the viking could be of use for a meching player and also for the viewers.
There are some possibilities to buff the Viking damage in a way, that it could replace the warhound's role as anti mech unit. Before I will give you some examplary ideas, it is of course important to mention, that this buff should be balanced very carefully, because the viking is and will be a low cost, fast produced unit.
Here are some ideas to buff ground viking:
Change the Damage Mechanics Vikings do 12 damage. Actually, they are designed to do 2*6 Damage. This would buff the viking vs immortals to a small amount.
Give the viking haywire missile The haywire missile (previously from the warhound) should be weakned appropriately, for vikings are more mobile and versatile. Make the missile an ability and enable more micro for the pros.
Give the viking extra damage vs mechanical through upgrade Just like the hellion. For example 2 * + 5 vs. Mechanical, research the upgrade in the armory or starport's techlab.
Here are some additional design twichtes, that might we could think about:
Slow Ground Movement Speed: The Viking is fast enough in the air, and mech units are supposed to be slow. Also, it would make the viking vulnerable vs HSM. This way, it will not be ridiculously overpowered in TvT.
Range: I have no idea wether shorter or longer range are better concerning the resulting balance situation
Make the viking a factory unit: One could inverse the idea behind the viking and we let it start as a ground unit in the factory and research the flight upgrade at the starport.
Remember: The viking will not be the „do-it-all“ unit! It still has the feeling of a specialized unit. In the Air, it targets massive Units, on the ground it targets mechanical units. You will never win a game with just a-click vikings. You need to analyse the situation and decide accordingly.
In addition, this is kind of a small change, a simple upgrade to be included and it could help the game a lot. The buffed viking could enable:
Land-and-start-Micro Hit and run Sniping „Real“ decision between flight mode and ground mode. Defence vs Blink Stalker Harass
On September 26 2012 20:22 _eXodus_ wrote: I recently thought about Blizzard taking the warhound out of the game and the following musing, that mech may never be a viable option in the TvP metagame. While the widowmine and the battle-hellion seem to improve the situation of Mech-TvP at the moment, I was still not content with the current state of the metagame. For I have no access to the Beta, I am speaking from a viewer's point of view.
In my opinion, Mech is lacking some salt, literally speaking. Because it is unlikely for the warhound to return, some other units may have to take its role. I then took a closer look at the existing units and a simple thought crossed my mind.
There are many cool features in starcraft 2 who never really crossed the border between „important for the gameplay in general“ and „gimmicky/important only in special situations“:
Look for example at the Colossus Cliffwalk – a nice idea, which negated by the lack of cliffs in most open battlefields.
Another example is the use of burrow roaches – originally designed to burrow roaches in a battle and give them the chance to regenerate life super fast. This is negated by a change of the roach concept in general.
Another one of those gimmicky abilities may be the viking's ability to transform. The viking is mainly used as a capable long range anti air fighter and it does fullfill this role suitably. But Ground-Vikings have little to no influence to the gameplay, because they do not fullfill a role and/or because they totally lack punch and/or hitpoints.
To me, it seems very interesting to change something about that. By including a single uprade to its damage, the viking could be of use for a meching player and also for the viewers.
There are some possibilities to buff the Viking damage in a way, that it could replace the warhound's role as anti mech unit. Before I will give you some examplary ideas, it is of course important to mention, that this buff should be balanced very carefully, because the viking is and will be a low cost, fast produced unit.
Here are some ideas to buff ground viking:
Change the Damage Mechanics Vikings do 12 damage. Actually, they are designed to do 2*6 Damage. This would buff the viking vs immortals to a small amount.
Give the viking haywire missile The haywire missile (previously from the warhound) should be weakned appropriately, for vikings are more mobile and versatile. Make the missile an ability and enable more micro for the pros.
Give the viking extra damage vs mechanical through upgrade Just like the hellion. For example 2 * + 5 vs. Mechanical, research the upgrade in the armory or starport's techlab.
Here are some additional design twichtes, that might we could think about:
Slow Ground Movement Speed: The Viking is fast enough in the air, and mech units are supposed to be slow. Also, it would make the viking vulnerable vs HSM. This way, it will not be ridiculously overpowered in TvT.
Range: I have no idea wether shorter or longer range are better concerning the resulting balance situation
Make the viking a factory unit: One could inverse the idea behind the viking and we let it start as a ground unit in the factory and research the flight upgrade at the starport.
Remember: The viking will not be the „do-it-all“ unit! It still has the feeling of a specialized unit. In the Air, it targets massive Units, on the ground it targets mechanical units. You will never win a game with just a-click vikings. You need to analyse the situation and decide accordingly.
In addition, this is kind of a small change, a simple upgrade to be included and it could help the game a lot. The buffed viking could enable:
Land-and-start-Micro Hit and run Sniping „Real“ decision between flight mode and ground mode. Defence vs Blink Stalker Harass
well said. blizzard brought in the warhound for a purpose, to fill in a role that made mech more viable. It didn't work out so they scrapped it, but they still seem like they want to fill that purpose... the viking is already a very great and widely used unit, it makes mech a possibility right now as the anti air of mech. The ground mode doesn't feel like it serves a role however. The main roles that we see from ground mode now that the ground viking are good at, are worker harrasment, and to hold off early hellions TvT. Those are really the only things that they're good at. So many people are saying they are good tanking units for bio, however this just isn't true. They have low armor and low hp per cost, they weren't designed to be a tanking unit, they are being utilized that way by bad players who use it as a last resort, but people don't build vikings to use as damage tanks, they build mauraders, thors, and bc's for this... ground mode isn't a bonus, it's an ability put in the game for a reason, and right now, those reasons, or roles if you will, are very unclear. Even their harrasment ability isn't the best, Players don't build vikings to ground mode harras, they utilize marine drops, which are far better and a easier to micro.
I really think this unit if tweaked can become the unit that fills the role that blizzard was looking to fill with the warhound. a role that will bring mech into more matchups, (primarily TvP)
these changes you mention look decent, blizzard would have to balance these very carefully as you stated, but it just feels like the ground mode viking has potential for this.
On September 26 2012 20:22 _eXodus_ wrote: Make the viking a factory unit: One could inverse the idea behind the viking and we let it start as a ground unit in the factory and research the flight upgrade at the starport.
Just this bit here is a really bad idea. The reason is that you would make vikings for their ability to deal with machanical units like stalkers, but as soon as a colossus transiation happens you just take off. The reason you can't tech switch from colossus to carrier / sky protoss is that the counter is already on the field in decent numbers. Protoss MUST tech switch into HT storm and if you see the vikings have been killed off you switch back into colossus. Thats the information game that is going on during PvT.
By making vikings a good ground unit terran never have to worry about colossus switches. They just get those vikings and then get ghosts, blindly. What protoss do doesn't matter at this point. I cannot stress this enough.
It's bad if ANY race can just make a magic composition which automatically coutners every tech route of a different race.
This is why ghosts got nerfed in TvZ. Because the counter to zerg tech was enough ghosts.
On September 26 2012 03:16 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote: I think a lot of people are missing the main point. the point is vikings have ground mode now... and why do they have ground mode now? they don't really serve any purpose in ground mode at the moment so why does it even exist... i'd rather have a corruption ability or a graviton beam like the other air to air's than a pointless ground mode... make it worth while to go ground mode... give it some purpose, or just scrap it completely instead of leaving it in as a pointless ability.
edit: and while i'm on pointles abilities blizzard for the love of god can you PLEASE do somethign with the thor's 250mm cannon strike, can we please get an ability that is seen in more than 1-2% of games played on b.net and tournaments... please?
they have 12 dps and beat a hydra...seems like their ground attack is superstrong already....it just doesnt beat everything lol.
Thank you for not reading my post. in response to your post after reading it, your comparison of a viking vs hydra might not be the best if you're against the viking ground mode receiving a buff. the reason is because everyone complains about how weak the hydra is and blizzard is actually changing the hydralisk. also in a real game you don't see hydra vs viking ground mode. hydra's are utilized behind a strong unit because of their low survivability and high (14.5) dps, vikings are too clunky to be utilized efficiently behind a buffer unit, (you can't fit as many in a space as you can hydras) and in a real game scenario do SUBSTANTIALLY less dps because of this. let alone doing less dps alone, 12dps vs 14.5...
vikings have a ground mode, why do they have a ground mode? what was blizzard trying to achieve by giving them this? the air to air units of other races have abilities that clearly show what their role is and they are used much more often to fulfil that role than the viking is used to fulfill their unknown role
12 dps to 14,5 is a bad comparison since viking has a lot more hp and EASILY wins a fight vs hydras. and no you are wrong. hydras are NOT getting buffed! they get speed at hivetech that makes them faster offcreep but still slower as they are now oncreep so the hydra itself will still be the sucky unit and will hopefully get a buff but thats not the topic here.
the topic is that vikings are REALLY good antiair and have a ground damage as a bonus if you have killed colossi/BLs etc. you get to have a 12 dps ground attack that is a great buffer with 125 hp (almost as tanky as a roach) for free as a bonus. so dont complain about a unit that is superfine. you terrans should rather discuss widow mines etc. and not one of your best units.
12 dps to 14,5 is a bad comparison since viking has a lot more hp and EASILY wins a fight vs hydras.
This is exactly why I said your comparison of a viking vs a hydra might not be the best. You don't fight with hydra's up front, directly vs a unit unless you're a bad player, or the rare 2 base timing. You fight with hydra's behind a roach to tank damage because hydra's have low hp. I was simply stating that hydra's do more DPS than a viking, Especially how much more tightly hydras can clump together in a battle scenario. So... it's not really helping you're argument against viking ground mode receiving a CHANGE to say, "vikings beat hydra's"
and no you are wrong. hydras are NOT getting buffed!
Okay, please like i mentioned in my previous post, PLEASE read my posts before quoting me and saying i'm wrong... where did i ever say in my post that the hydralisk is receiving a buff? I stated that blizzard is changing the hydralisk because so many people complained. I am fully aware of the speed increase off creep. since you say that it's not a buff, and i never said it was a buff, then i think it's safe to say it's a change to the unit addressing a problem zergs face with hydralisks. more to the topic of this thread, perhaps blizzard can come up with some sort of "change" to the ground viking that can address the problems the ground viking faces, it's clunky so it's dps in a battle scenario is weak directly because of this, and it doesn't have much of a purpose.
It already DOES have a purpose: it lets Terran players overproduce Vikings to quickly shut down Colossi, and then use Ground Mode to let those Vikings tank for the Marines.
this literally just want's to make me cry how dumb this statement is.
the hydra was only an example. like i wrote they do fine vs EVERY ground unit (fine DOESNT mean win because then every T would just build 70 vikings and win every game).
after killing colossi they DO tank for MMM. are you kidding me? watch ANY pro stream where 10 vikings = 1250 hp to kill doesnt tank vs zealots. if you say otherwise you never have done it or just use useless arguments to get your vikingbuff which will never gonna happen because it is and AA unit (a great one) and has a good bonus which is ground attack.
I wanted to cry because that guy is basically saying the vikings purpose is to allow players to play bad. overbuilding vikings then landing them to to die just to tank for mmm is a very bad starcraft player... you will never see a pro using vikings as tanks, you see them land as an insult after they completely crush a protoss army yeah, but to be used as tanks for mmm? i'm pretty sure blizzard's intention of the ground viking wasn't for them to be used as tanks, especially with their low hp per cost.
i'm just trying to figure out what was/is blizzards intention for the ground viking? what is it good at? you say tanking for mmm, it's deffinately not good at that. the fight is either heavily one way and the landed vikings are just their rub it in, or it's the opposite and half the fleet of vikings is dead before they touch the gound while intransition, and the remaining are dead in mere seconds with it's low hp per cost. if blizzard truly intended the ground viking on being a tank for mmm then I would argue that it needs a DRASTIC buff. However, i don't believe this is what they wanted for the ground viking.
why is it in the game, what did they want it to do? it's HOTS and now is the time to look at this. it just doesn't make sense to me that they purposely put it in the game to be low armor, low hp per cost meatshield. I just think it could be something that actually serves a purpose if changed, because using ground vikings now just feels so pointless.
did you watch flash today? he massively overbuilds vikings in TvP to fastly bring down colossus and instantly lands them after colossus are dead while kiting with his MMM and landing vikings between MMM and warp ins of toss. so flash might disagree with you.
i still dont get the whole discussion though. they are supposed to kill air units and they are good at that. as a bonus they get a really nice bonus. corruptor has corruption which is a bonus but sucks so incredibly more than ground mode vikings.
I only saw Flash vs Killer in GSL. But I didn't see Flash landing his Vikings in TvP engagements. I saw him trading Vikings cost-ineffectively against Stalker+Colossi so he could lure away all the Zealots and kill them for free with his bio. Normally trading gas for minerals is a bad idea, but lategame TvP is so mineral intensive for the Terran that it kinda makes sense. But that doesn't work against Storm (or Stargate, but who goes Stargate)...Flash was lucky that Killer never got storm in any of those games.
The problem with the viking isn't that it is weak, or that it is expensive. Its numbers are low, but tolerable. And the cost is high, but essentially comparable to a stalker. The problem is the unit is clunky, very much unlike the stalker, which is very fluid. The only thing the viking needs is to become fluid and rewarding to use and control well. In a game with quick response time and fluid control, it really does stick out as being incredibly clunky. When ordered to land, it eventually comes to a stop, and then descends vertically, slowly, where it is a very slow and boring stand-and-shoot unit.
I would like to see the viking able to move while lifting and landing, and able to move and fire while on the ground. This might go hand in hand with a speed buff on the ground, and maybe a nice retro thruster effect beneath its "legs." Coupled with giving the viking cliff jump and fluid motion on the ground, this would make the viking a much more finesse-based unit, and much more pleasant and rewarding to control. Also, make the viking land or lift immediately when given the order, maintaining its direction and velocity in either case.
Yes, it costs 3x the cost of marines discounting gas, but does two times their unstimmed dps landed and +1 range? They are expensive, I agree a minor buff such as attack while moving could help them as meat shields for tanks or thors.
On September 27 2012 15:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Yes, it costs 3x the cost of marines discounting gas, but does two times their unstimmed dps landed and +1 range? They are expensive, I agree a minor buff such as attack while moving could help them as meat shields for tanks or thors.
BUT THEY FLY!!!!!
OMFG stop overlooking the fundamental issue that the viking is the CHEAPEST FLYING UNIT IN THE GAME! With no assault mode at all it would be a well balanced, well priced unit.
This retarded shit is like complaining that maruaders are cheaper than stalkers. Stalkers can shoot UP. That matters a LOT.
Phoenix cost 150/100 and can only lift a unit when they have the energy, cannot harm buildings and cannot harm massive units, but that's ok because they FUCKING FLY!!!!
When will you idiots stop pretending that vikings CAN'T fly so that you can ask for a buff to their ground mode.
"Herp derp, but if you pretend that vikings can't fly then they are SUPER expensive and even cost GAS!!"
On September 27 2012 15:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Yes, it costs 3x the cost of marines discounting gas, but does two times their unstimmed dps landed and +1 range? They are expensive, I agree a minor buff such as attack while moving could help them as meat shields for tanks or thors.
BUT THEY FLY!!!!!
OMFG stop overlooking the fundamental issue that the viking is the CHEAPEST FLYING UNIT IN THE GAME! With no assault mode at all it would be a well balanced, well priced unit.
This retarded shit is like complaining that maruaders are cheaper than stalkers. Stalkers can shoot UP. That matters a LOT.
Phoenix cost 150/100 and can only lift a unit when they have the energy, cannot harm buildings and cannot harm massive units, but that's ok because they FUCKING FLY!!!!
When will you idiots stop pretending that vikings CAN'T fly so that you can ask for a buff to their ground mode.
"Herp derp, but if you pretend that vikings can't fly then they are SUPER expensive and even cost GAS!!"
You can't separate between a unit that is decent vs ground and a unit that hard counters ground.
The current situation is that the terran has to balance the number of vikings fairly well to deal with colossus or just outright die. Right now vikings in ground mode have very little utility. They basically only work as adding insult to injury in an already won game or a last-resort panic unit which makes you pray that it was a marauder.
Vikings wont start owning shit on the ground just because you buff them slightly. Don't you understand this?
Combining Vehicle and Air upgrades is an interesting idea for an indirect buff to Terran lategame vs Zerg and to a lesser extent Protoss, otherwise a minor buff to Vikings like +1 Armor could be enough to buff Terran lategame vs Zerg air compositions and make Assaul Mode Vikings more viable vs Zealots because it reduces 2 damage per Zealot attack, or change their ground attack to 1.5 attack speed and 18 damage in order to decrease the effectiveness of armor vs your attacks or increase the upgrade damage bonus to +2 instead of +1 for the ground attack only?
I don't think you have to change Viking Assault Mode fundamentally in order to make Assault Vikings good vs Zealots, just combining Vehicle and Air upgrades into a single upgrade and giving the Assault Viking a minor buff in Armor or bonus damage could make them viable. Mech has to build Vikings to protect itself from air regardless, so making Assault Vikings the "meat shields" of Tanks seems like a better use of a pre-existing unit than a Bio Battle Hellion.
On September 27 2012 15:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Yes, it costs 3x the cost of marines discounting gas, but does two times their unstimmed dps landed and +1 range? They are expensive, I agree a minor buff such as attack while moving could help them as meat shields for tanks or thors.
BUT THEY FLY!!!!!
OMFG stop overlooking the fundamental issue that the viking is the CHEAPEST FLYING UNIT IN THE GAME! With no assault mode at all it would be a well balanced, well priced unit.
This retarded shit is like complaining that maruaders are cheaper than stalkers. Stalkers can shoot UP. That matters a LOT.
Phoenix cost 150/100 and can only lift a unit when they have the energy, cannot harm buildings and cannot harm massive units, but that's ok because they FUCKING FLY!!!!
When will you idiots stop pretending that vikings CAN'T fly so that you can ask for a buff to their ground mode.
"Herp derp, but if you pretend that vikings can't fly then they are SUPER expensive and even cost GAS!!"
You can't separate between a unit that is decent vs ground and a unit that hard counters ground.
The current situation is that the terran has to balance the number of vikings fairly well to deal with colossus or just outright die. Right now vikings in ground mode have very little utility. They basically only work as adding insult to injury in an already won game or a last-resort panic unit which makes you pray that it was a marauder.
Vikings wont start owning shit on the ground just because you buff them slightly. Don't you understand this?
Marauders don't hard counter ground. Marauders hard counter Stalkers, Roaches, unsieged Tanks, Thors, and things that are trying to hit Light units for a lot of damage. Vikings hard counter many things in the air. They hard counter Brood Lords, Void Rays, Battlecruisers, Banshees, and Motherships. They shut down all kinds of dropships. They trade suitably with Phoenix, Corruptors, and Carriers. I don't need to mention the Colossus. They are also decent on the ground. They trade suitably with Stalkers and Hydralisks. They can be used to buffer a fair amount of damage and clean up leftover units. This is balanced. You are right that the Terran has to balance the Viking count "fairly well". It is also true that the Protoss has to balance the Colossus count fairly well. If the Protoss overproduces Colossi, then the Terran will have enough Vikings to kill all the Colossi and leave the Protoss with no AOE. This happens in a fair number of pro games. If it did not happen, then Protoss would never have to transition out of Colossi. You are coming into this with an astonishingly biased perspective that fails to realize that the Viking already has a fantastic safety net compared to really any other air to air dedicated unit, along with being incredibly effective and cost-efficient. When a Zerg player makes Corruptors, there is not this safety net. When a Protoss makes Phoenix, there is not this safety net. Only Terran gets this generous offer, and you ask for more. That is not reasonable. That is essentially a balance whine.
I can't believe it, of all the units in the Terran race you choose the Viking to complain about. What's next? Is the Marine too weak to AOE? It's just not RIGHT for units to be good against everything!
On September 27 2012 15:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Yes, it costs 3x the cost of marines discounting gas, but does two times their unstimmed dps landed and +1 range? They are expensive, I agree a minor buff such as attack while moving could help them as meat shields for tanks or thors.
BUT THEY FLY!!!!!
OMFG stop overlooking the fundamental issue that the viking is the CHEAPEST FLYING UNIT IN THE GAME! With no assault mode at all it would be a well balanced, well priced unit.
This retarded shit is like complaining that maruaders are cheaper than stalkers. Stalkers can shoot UP. That matters a LOT.
Phoenix cost 150/100 and can only lift a unit when they have the energy, cannot harm buildings and cannot harm massive units, but that's ok because they FUCKING FLY!!!!
When will you idiots stop pretending that vikings CAN'T fly so that you can ask for a buff to their ground mode.
"Herp derp, but if you pretend that vikings can't fly then they are SUPER expensive and even cost GAS!!"
You can't separate between a unit that is decent vs ground and a unit that hard counters ground.
The current situation is that the terran has to balance the number of vikings fairly well to deal with colossus or just outright die. Right now vikings in ground mode have very little utility. They basically only work as adding insult to injury in an already won game or a last-resort panic unit which makes you pray that it was a marauder.
Vikings wont start owning shit on the ground just because you buff them slightly. Don't you understand this?
Marauders don't hard counter ground. Marauders hard counter Stalkers, Roaches, unsieged Tanks, Thors, and things that are trying to hit Light units for a lot of damage. Vikings hard counter many things in the air. They hard counter Brood Lords, Void Rays, Battlecruisers, Banshees, and Motherships. They shut down all kinds of dropships. They trade suitably with Phoenix, Corruptors, and Carriers. I don't need to mention the Colossus. They are also decent on the ground. They trade suitably with Stalkers and Hydralisks. They can be used to buffer a fair amount of damage and clean up leftover units. This is balanced. You are right that the Terran has to balance the Viking count "fairly well". It is also true that the Protoss has to balance the Colossus count fairly well. If the Protoss overproduces Colossi, then the Terran will have enough Vikings to kill all the Colossi and leave the Protoss with no AOE. This happens in a fair number of pro games. If it did not happen, then Protoss would never have to transition out of Colossi. You are coming into this with an astonishingly biased perspective that fails to realize that the Viking already has a fantastic safety net compared to really any other air to air dedicated unit, along with being incredibly effective and cost-efficient. When a Zerg player makes Corruptors, there is not this safety net. When a Protoss makes Phoenix, there is not this safety net. Only Terran gets this generous offer, and you ask for more. That is not reasonable. That is essentially a balance whine.
I can't believe it, of all the units in the Terran race you choose the Viking to complain about. What's next? Is the Marine too weak to AOE? It's just not RIGHT for units to be good against everything!
Thanks for very eloquently putting in words what i was thinking when i read this topic. Buffing vikings to make mech work is simply trying to solve a problem by creating a new one.
On September 27 2012 15:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Yes, it costs 3x the cost of marines discounting gas, but does two times their unstimmed dps landed and +1 range? They are expensive, I agree a minor buff such as attack while moving could help them as meat shields for tanks or thors.
BUT THEY FLY!!!!!
OMFG stop overlooking the fundamental issue that the viking is the CHEAPEST FLYING UNIT IN THE GAME! With no assault mode at all it would be a well balanced, well priced unit.
This retarded shit is like complaining that maruaders are cheaper than stalkers. Stalkers can shoot UP. That matters a LOT.
Phoenix cost 150/100 and can only lift a unit when they have the energy, cannot harm buildings and cannot harm massive units, but that's ok because they FUCKING FLY!!!!
When will you idiots stop pretending that vikings CAN'T fly so that you can ask for a buff to their ground mode.
"Herp derp, but if you pretend that vikings can't fly then they are SUPER expensive and even cost GAS!!"
You can't separate between a unit that is decent vs ground and a unit that hard counters ground.
The current situation is that the terran has to balance the number of vikings fairly well to deal with colossus or just outright die. Right now vikings in ground mode have very little utility. They basically only work as adding insult to injury in an already won game or a last-resort panic unit which makes you pray that it was a marauder.
Vikings wont start owning shit on the ground just because you buff them slightly. Don't you understand this?
Marauders don't hard counter ground. Marauders hard counter Stalkers, Roaches, unsieged Tanks, Thors, and things that are trying to hit Light units for a lot of damage. Vikings hard counter many things in the air. They hard counter Brood Lords, Void Rays, Battlecruisers, Banshees, and Motherships. They shut down all kinds of dropships. They trade suitably with Phoenix, Corruptors, and Carriers. I don't need to mention the Colossus. They are also decent on the ground. They trade suitably with Stalkers and Hydralisks. They can be used to buffer a fair amount of damage and clean up leftover units. This is balanced. You are right that the Terran has to balance the Viking count "fairly well". It is also true that the Protoss has to balance the Colossus count fairly well. If the Protoss overproduces Colossi, then the Terran will have enough Vikings to kill all the Colossi and leave the Protoss with no AOE. This happens in a fair number of pro games. If it did not happen, then Protoss would never have to transition out of Colossi. You are coming into this with an astonishingly biased perspective that fails to realize that the Viking already has a fantastic safety net compared to really any other air to air dedicated unit, along with being incredibly effective and cost-efficient. When a Zerg player makes Corruptors, there is not this safety net. When a Protoss makes Phoenix, there is not this safety net. Only Terran gets this generous offer, and you ask for more. That is not reasonable. That is essentially a balance whine.
I can't believe it, of all the units in the Terran race you choose the Viking to complain about. What's next? Is the Marine too weak to AOE? It's just not RIGHT for units to be good against everything!
Vikings pretty much hard counter Carriers too with micro. Morrow was doing a unit test earlier in his stream with full upgrades. I think it was 60 Supply each. If it's a-move vs. a-move, Carriers win handily 70% remain. If Vikings stutter step at max range for powerful bursts, Vikings win handily 70% remain. As of right now, Protoss has no answer to mass Vikings and they never really did, which is exactly why Protoss air is never seen in PvT. Carriers need their BW micro to compete, because Interceptors leash too stupidly to be able to have some micro against Viking micro.
The only issue I see with Terran air is their lack of dealing with Zerg tech switches from BL to Ultra. How about an anti-Ultra ability that doesn't upset PvT balance? If Grounded Vikings are the primary target of splash attacks (Ultra cleave), make it so all the splash is absorbed by their new ability "Flanking Armor." I hardly think Seige Tanks and Colossus will care one bit, but it might work well against Ultras that rely on their huge splash range.
On September 27 2012 15:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Yes, it costs 3x the cost of marines discounting gas, but does two times their unstimmed dps landed and +1 range? They are expensive, I agree a minor buff such as attack while moving could help them as meat shields for tanks or thors.
BUT THEY FLY!!!!!
OMFG stop overlooking the fundamental issue that the viking is the CHEAPEST FLYING UNIT IN THE GAME! With no assault mode at all it would be a well balanced, well priced unit.
This retarded shit is like complaining that maruaders are cheaper than stalkers. Stalkers can shoot UP. That matters a LOT.
Phoenix cost 150/100 and can only lift a unit when they have the energy, cannot harm buildings and cannot harm massive units, but that's ok because they FUCKING FLY!!!!
When will you idiots stop pretending that vikings CAN'T fly so that you can ask for a buff to their ground mode.
"Herp derp, but if you pretend that vikings can't fly then they are SUPER expensive and even cost GAS!!"
You can't separate between a unit that is decent vs ground and a unit that hard counters ground.
The current situation is that the terran has to balance the number of vikings fairly well to deal with colossus or just outright die. Right now vikings in ground mode have very little utility. They basically only work as adding insult to injury in an already won game or a last-resort panic unit which makes you pray that it was a marauder.
Vikings wont start owning shit on the ground just because you buff them slightly. Don't you understand this?
Marauders don't hard counter ground. Marauders hard counter Stalkers, Roaches, unsieged Tanks, Thors, and things that are trying to hit Light units for a lot of damage. Vikings hard counter many things in the air. They hard counter Brood Lords, Void Rays, Battlecruisers, Banshees, and Motherships. They shut down all kinds of dropships. They trade suitably with Phoenix, Corruptors, and Carriers. I don't need to mention the Colossus. They are also decent on the ground. They trade suitably with Stalkers and Hydralisks. They can be used to buffer a fair amount of damage and clean up leftover units. This is balanced. You are right that the Terran has to balance the Viking count "fairly well". It is also true that the Protoss has to balance the Colossus count fairly well. If the Protoss overproduces Colossi, then the Terran will have enough Vikings to kill all the Colossi and leave the Protoss with no AOE. This happens in a fair number of pro games. If it did not happen, then Protoss would never have to transition out of Colossi. You are coming into this with an astonishingly biased perspective that fails to realize that the Viking already has a fantastic safety net compared to really any other air to air dedicated unit, along with being incredibly effective and cost-efficient. When a Zerg player makes Corruptors, there is not this safety net. When a Protoss makes Phoenix, there is not this safety net. Only Terran gets this generous offer, and you ask for more. That is not reasonable. That is essentially a balance whine.
I can't believe it, of all the units in the Terran race you choose the Viking to complain about. What's next? Is the Marine too weak to AOE? It's just not RIGHT for units to be good against everything!
Vikings pretty much hard counter Carriers too with micro. Morrow was doing a unit test earlier in his stream with full upgrades. I think it was 60 Supply each. If it's a-move vs. a-move, Carriers win handily 70% remain. If Vikings stutter step at max range for powerful bursts, Vikings win handily 70% remain. As of right now, Protoss has no answer to mass Vikings and they never really did, which is exactly why Protoss air is never seen in PvT. Carriers need their BW micro to compete, because Interceptors leash too stupidly to be able to have some micro against Viking micro.
The only issue I see with Terran air is their lack of dealing with Zerg tech switches from BL to Ultra. How about an anti-Ultra ability that doesn't upset PvT balance? If Grounded Vikings are the primary target of splash attacks (Ultra cleave), make it so all the splash is absorbed by their new ability "Flanking Armor." I hardly think Seige Tanks and Colossus will care one bit, but it might work well against Ultras that rely on their huge splash range.
This is an artificial situation which will never happen in a real game. In reality the carrier is really good vs mech. While you kite the Vikings there is ample time for the carriers to do damage to the mech ground army. The only unit that really deals well with carriers is actually the marine. A bunch of stimmed marines will kill all the interceptors in 3 seconds.
The reason you never see carriers in TvP is the marine - not the viking.
On September 27 2012 15:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Yes, it costs 3x the cost of marines discounting gas, but does two times their unstimmed dps landed and +1 range? They are expensive, I agree a minor buff such as attack while moving could help them as meat shields for tanks or thors.
BUT THEY FLY!!!!!
OMFG stop overlooking the fundamental issue that the viking is the CHEAPEST FLYING UNIT IN THE GAME! With no assault mode at all it would be a well balanced, well priced unit.
This retarded shit is like complaining that maruaders are cheaper than stalkers. Stalkers can shoot UP. That matters a LOT.
Phoenix cost 150/100 and can only lift a unit when they have the energy, cannot harm buildings and cannot harm massive units, but that's ok because they FUCKING FLY!!!!
When will you idiots stop pretending that vikings CAN'T fly so that you can ask for a buff to their ground mode.
"Herp derp, but if you pretend that vikings can't fly then they are SUPER expensive and even cost GAS!!"
You can't separate between a unit that is decent vs ground and a unit that hard counters ground.
The current situation is that the terran has to balance the number of vikings fairly well to deal with colossus or just outright die. Right now vikings in ground mode have very little utility. They basically only work as adding insult to injury in an already won game or a last-resort panic unit which makes you pray that it was a marauder.
Vikings wont start owning shit on the ground just because you buff them slightly. Don't you understand this?
Marauders don't hard counter ground. Marauders hard counter Stalkers, Roaches, unsieged Tanks, Thors, and things that are trying to hit Light units for a lot of damage. Vikings hard counter many things in the air. They hard counter Brood Lords, Void Rays, Battlecruisers, Banshees, and Motherships. They shut down all kinds of dropships. They trade suitably with Phoenix, Corruptors, and Carriers. I don't need to mention the Colossus. They are also decent on the ground. They trade suitably with Stalkers and Hydralisks. They can be used to buffer a fair amount of damage and clean up leftover units. This is balanced. You are right that the Terran has to balance the Viking count "fairly well". It is also true that the Protoss has to balance the Colossus count fairly well. If the Protoss overproduces Colossi, then the Terran will have enough Vikings to kill all the Colossi and leave the Protoss with no AOE. This happens in a fair number of pro games. If it did not happen, then Protoss would never have to transition out of Colossi. You are coming into this with an astonishingly biased perspective that fails to realize that the Viking already has a fantastic safety net compared to really any other air to air dedicated unit, along with being incredibly effective and cost-efficient. When a Zerg player makes Corruptors, there is not this safety net. When a Protoss makes Phoenix, there is not this safety net. Only Terran gets this generous offer, and you ask for more. That is not reasonable. That is essentially a balance whine.
I can't believe it, of all the units in the Terran race you choose the Viking to complain about. What's next? Is the Marine too weak to AOE? It's just not RIGHT for units to be good against everything!
Vikings pretty much hard counter Carriers too with micro. Morrow was doing a unit test earlier in his stream with full upgrades. I think it was 60 Supply each. If it's a-move vs. a-move, Carriers win handily 70% remain. If Vikings stutter step at max range for powerful bursts, Vikings win handily 70% remain. As of right now, Protoss has no answer to mass Vikings and they never really did, which is exactly why Protoss air is never seen in PvT. Carriers need their BW micro to compete, because Interceptors leash too stupidly to be able to have some micro against Viking micro.
The only issue I see with Terran air is their lack of dealing with Zerg tech switches from BL to Ultra. How about an anti-Ultra ability that doesn't upset PvT balance? If Grounded Vikings are the primary target of splash attacks (Ultra cleave), make it so all the splash is absorbed by their new ability "Flanking Armor." I hardly think Seige Tanks and Colossus will care one bit, but it might work well against Ultras that rely on their huge splash range.
This is an artificial situation which will never happen in a real game. In reality the carrier is really good vs mech. While you kite the Vikings there is ample time for the carriers to do damage to the mech ground army. The only unit that really deals well with carriers is actually the marine. A bunch of stimmed marines will kill all the interceptors in 3 seconds.
The reason you never see carriers in TvP is the marine - not the viking.
It's both, honestly. And because we're talking about Mech, Marines are a nonissue. Since Carriers are slower and more cumbersome, there's no way to gain a micro advantage over the Vikings. They will always be kited. It's like a Roach kiting a legless Zealot. There's nothing the Zealot can do except a-move and pray it can catch up. If he runs, he'll be kited. If he pursues he will be kited. Refocusing the Carriers on the ground fight will only guarantee a loss of all your Carriers.
On September 23 2012 00:48 Piousflea wrote: With all the attention on Tanks and Hellions and Firebattlehellions, you'd think that people would think about one of the other Terran units that has been around for a long time - Ground Vikings.
Ground Vikings are weak. REALLY weak. They weren't always so bad. IIRC at one point in WoL Beta they had 1 Armor and 14 damage and could compete toe-to-toe vs stalkers and hydralisks. Thing is, a usable Ground Viking would actually fill a lot of the holes in HotS Mech.
If the biggest problem with vikings is indeed the broodlord ultra switch as someone else said in this thread, then the sugested buff by the op is actually a hidden nerf as vikings will go from doing 9 damage to doing 8 damage to an ultra, and with unequal upgrades, wich is verry likely with vikings, this difference will only be bigger.
I realy dont hope that blizzard will completely give up the warhound and instead give us a buff to the ground viking -.- It seems the easy way out and this thread getting so manny responses makes me fear for this scenario a little bit. Annyway:if they do, i surely do hope they find a different way of buffing the viking then the one sugested in the op, wich is arguably a nerf in the situation where vikings would need the buff the most.
increase their hp and reduce their seize. The seize of the unit is supposed to have some relation with the amount of its hit points, and with the viking this balance is completely off. Beeing a big unit is a huge disadvantage in the majority of the situations you encounter.
@below:And yes vikings are terrible against carrier or anny other protoss air, despite what people seem to find out in the unit tester. Reason for protoss not going air seems to be the marine indeed, wich is usually at least equally upgraded as the carrier. On morrrows streams i saw morrow at one point having like 25+ vikings and still didnt manage to get annything done (with kiting) to like 3 carriers and 5 tempest, you should compare how they fight in a real game , in a real game protos going air will always have a huge upgrade advantage over vikings and somehow the vikings just die.
On September 27 2012 15:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Yes, it costs 3x the cost of marines discounting gas, but does two times their unstimmed dps landed and +1 range? They are expensive, I agree a minor buff such as attack while moving could help them as meat shields for tanks or thors.
BUT THEY FLY!!!!!
OMFG stop overlooking the fundamental issue that the viking is the CHEAPEST FLYING UNIT IN THE GAME! With no assault mode at all it would be a well balanced, well priced unit.
This retarded shit is like complaining that maruaders are cheaper than stalkers. Stalkers can shoot UP. That matters a LOT.
Phoenix cost 150/100 and can only lift a unit when they have the energy, cannot harm buildings and cannot harm massive units, but that's ok because they FUCKING FLY!!!!
When will you idiots stop pretending that vikings CAN'T fly so that you can ask for a buff to their ground mode.
"Herp derp, but if you pretend that vikings can't fly then they are SUPER expensive and even cost GAS!!"
You can't separate between a unit that is decent vs ground and a unit that hard counters ground.
The current situation is that the terran has to balance the number of vikings fairly well to deal with colossus or just outright die. Right now vikings in ground mode have very little utility. They basically only work as adding insult to injury in an already won game or a last-resort panic unit which makes you pray that it was a marauder.
Vikings wont start owning shit on the ground just because you buff them slightly. Don't you understand this?
Marauders don't hard counter ground. Marauders hard counter Stalkers, Roaches, unsieged Tanks, Thors, and things that are trying to hit Light units for a lot of damage. Vikings hard counter many things in the air. They hard counter Brood Lords, Void Rays, Battlecruisers, Banshees, and Motherships. They shut down all kinds of dropships. They trade suitably with Phoenix, Corruptors, and Carriers. I don't need to mention the Colossus. They are also decent on the ground. They trade suitably with Stalkers and Hydralisks. They can be used to buffer a fair amount of damage and clean up leftover units. This is balanced. You are right that the Terran has to balance the Viking count "fairly well". It is also true that the Protoss has to balance the Colossus count fairly well. If the Protoss overproduces Colossi, then the Terran will have enough Vikings to kill all the Colossi and leave the Protoss with no AOE. This happens in a fair number of pro games. If it did not happen, then Protoss would never have to transition out of Colossi. You are coming into this with an astonishingly biased perspective that fails to realize that the Viking already has a fantastic safety net compared to really any other air to air dedicated unit, along with being incredibly effective and cost-efficient. When a Zerg player makes Corruptors, there is not this safety net. When a Protoss makes Phoenix, there is not this safety net. Only Terran gets this generous offer, and you ask for more. That is not reasonable. That is essentially a balance whine.
I can't believe it, of all the units in the Terran race you choose the Viking to complain about. What's next? Is the Marine too weak to AOE? It's just not RIGHT for units to be good against everything!
Vikings pretty much hard counter Carriers too with micro. Morrow was doing a unit test earlier in his stream with full upgrades. I think it was 60 Supply each. If it's a-move vs. a-move, Carriers win handily 70% remain. If Vikings stutter step at max range for powerful bursts, Vikings win handily 70% remain. As of right now, Protoss has no answer to mass Vikings and they never really did, which is exactly why Protoss air is never seen in PvT. Carriers need their BW micro to compete, because Interceptors leash too stupidly to be able to have some micro against Viking micro.
The only issue I see with Terran air is their lack of dealing with Zerg tech switches from BL to Ultra. How about an anti-Ultra ability that doesn't upset PvT balance? If Grounded Vikings are the primary target of splash attacks (Ultra cleave), make it so all the splash is absorbed by their new ability "Flanking Armor." I hardly think Seige Tanks and Colossus will care one bit, but it might work well against Ultras that rely on their huge splash range.
This is an artificial situation which will never happen in a real game. In reality the carrier is really good vs mech. While you kite the Vikings there is ample time for the carriers to do damage to the mech ground army. The only unit that really deals well with carriers is actually the marine. A bunch of stimmed marines will kill all the interceptors in 3 seconds.
The reason you never see carriers in TvP is the marine - not the viking.
It's both, honestly. And because we're talking about Mech, Marines are a nonissue. Since Carriers are slower and more cumbersome, there's no way to gain a micro advantage over the Vikings. They will always be kited. It's like a Roach kiting a legless Zealot. There's nothing the Zealot can do except a-move and pray it can catch up. If he runs, he'll be kited. If he pursues he will be kited. Refocusing the Carriers on the ground fight will only guarantee a loss of all your Carriers.
you are terribly wrong. Vikings arent good vs Carriers if you dont have a lot more than # of carriers.
When you attack with 9 range vikings you have to stop for a moment. in that time the carrier will get in his 8 range and lunch the interceptors. the interceptors give you 6 more range. they will fight against the vikings until they are out of the 14 range. then you can start attacking again with vikings but you already lost a (huge) amount of vikings in that first "fight". tldr: if you have like 6 carriers your vikings will melt. Thors dont help and turrets may be the only help when going mech.
On September 27 2012 15:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Yes, it costs 3x the cost of marines discounting gas, but does two times their unstimmed dps landed and +1 range? They are expensive, I agree a minor buff such as attack while moving could help them as meat shields for tanks or thors.
BUT THEY FLY!!!!!
OMFG stop overlooking the fundamental issue that the viking is the CHEAPEST FLYING UNIT IN THE GAME! With no assault mode at all it would be a well balanced, well priced unit.
This retarded shit is like complaining that maruaders are cheaper than stalkers. Stalkers can shoot UP. That matters a LOT.
Phoenix cost 150/100 and can only lift a unit when they have the energy, cannot harm buildings and cannot harm massive units, but that's ok because they FUCKING FLY!!!!
When will you idiots stop pretending that vikings CAN'T fly so that you can ask for a buff to their ground mode.
"Herp derp, but if you pretend that vikings can't fly then they are SUPER expensive and even cost GAS!!"
You can't separate between a unit that is decent vs ground and a unit that hard counters ground.
The current situation is that the terran has to balance the number of vikings fairly well to deal with colossus or just outright die. Right now vikings in ground mode have very little utility. They basically only work as adding insult to injury in an already won game or a last-resort panic unit which makes you pray that it was a marauder.
Vikings wont start owning shit on the ground just because you buff them slightly. Don't you understand this?
Marauders don't hard counter ground. Marauders hard counter Stalkers, Roaches, unsieged Tanks, Thors, and things that are trying to hit Light units for a lot of damage. Vikings hard counter many things in the air. They hard counter Brood Lords, Void Rays, Battlecruisers, Banshees, and Motherships. They shut down all kinds of dropships. They trade suitably with Phoenix, Corruptors, and Carriers. I don't need to mention the Colossus. They are also decent on the ground. They trade suitably with Stalkers and Hydralisks. They can be used to buffer a fair amount of damage and clean up leftover units. This is balanced. You are right that the Terran has to balance the Viking count "fairly well". It is also true that the Protoss has to balance the Colossus count fairly well. If the Protoss overproduces Colossi, then the Terran will have enough Vikings to kill all the Colossi and leave the Protoss with no AOE. This happens in a fair number of pro games. If it did not happen, then Protoss would never have to transition out of Colossi. You are coming into this with an astonishingly biased perspective that fails to realize that the Viking already has a fantastic safety net compared to really any other air to air dedicated unit, along with being incredibly effective and cost-efficient. When a Zerg player makes Corruptors, there is not this safety net. When a Protoss makes Phoenix, there is not this safety net. Only Terran gets this generous offer, and you ask for more. That is not reasonable. That is essentially a balance whine.
I can't believe it, of all the units in the Terran race you choose the Viking to complain about. What's next? Is the Marine too weak to AOE? It's just not RIGHT for units to be good against everything!
Vikings pretty much hard counter Carriers too with micro. Morrow was doing a unit test earlier in his stream with full upgrades. I think it was 60 Supply each. If it's a-move vs. a-move, Carriers win handily 70% remain. If Vikings stutter step at max range for powerful bursts, Vikings win handily 70% remain. As of right now, Protoss has no answer to mass Vikings and they never really did, which is exactly why Protoss air is never seen in PvT. Carriers need their BW micro to compete, because Interceptors leash too stupidly to be able to have some micro against Viking micro.
The only issue I see with Terran air is their lack of dealing with Zerg tech switches from BL to Ultra. How about an anti-Ultra ability that doesn't upset PvT balance? If Grounded Vikings are the primary target of splash attacks (Ultra cleave), make it so all the splash is absorbed by their new ability "Flanking Armor." I hardly think Seige Tanks and Colossus will care one bit, but it might work well against Ultras that rely on their huge splash range.
This is an artificial situation which will never happen in a real game. In reality the carrier is really good vs mech. While you kite the Vikings there is ample time for the carriers to do damage to the mech ground army. The only unit that really deals well with carriers is actually the marine. A bunch of stimmed marines will kill all the interceptors in 3 seconds.
The reason you never see carriers in TvP is the marine - not the viking.
It's both, honestly. And because we're talking about Mech, Marines are a nonissue. Since Carriers are slower and more cumbersome, there's no way to gain a micro advantage over the Vikings. They will always be kited. It's like a Roach kiting a legless Zealot. There's nothing the Zealot can do except a-move and pray it can catch up. If he runs, he'll be kited. If he pursues he will be kited. Refocusing the Carriers on the ground fight will only guarantee a loss of all your Carriers.
you are terribly wrong. Vikings arent good vs Carriers if you dont have a lot more than # of carriers.
When you attack with 9 range vikings you have to stop for a moment. in that time the carrier will get in his 8 range and lunch the interceptors. the interceptors give you 6 more range. they will fight against the vikings until they are out of the 14 range. then you can start attacking again with vikings but you already lost a (huge) amount of vikings in that first "fight". tldr: if you have like 6 carriers your vikings will melt. Thors dont help and turrets may be the only help when going mech.
5 widow mines under the vikings = all interceptors dead ^^
On September 27 2012 15:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Yes, it costs 3x the cost of marines discounting gas, but does two times their unstimmed dps landed and +1 range? They are expensive, I agree a minor buff such as attack while moving could help them as meat shields for tanks or thors.
BUT THEY FLY!!!!!
OMFG stop overlooking the fundamental issue that the viking is the CHEAPEST FLYING UNIT IN THE GAME! With no assault mode at all it would be a well balanced, well priced unit.
This retarded shit is like complaining that maruaders are cheaper than stalkers. Stalkers can shoot UP. That matters a LOT.
Phoenix cost 150/100 and can only lift a unit when they have the energy, cannot harm buildings and cannot harm massive units, but that's ok because they FUCKING FLY!!!!
When will you idiots stop pretending that vikings CAN'T fly so that you can ask for a buff to their ground mode.
"Herp derp, but if you pretend that vikings can't fly then they are SUPER expensive and even cost GAS!!"
You can't separate between a unit that is decent vs ground and a unit that hard counters ground.
The current situation is that the terran has to balance the number of vikings fairly well to deal with colossus or just outright die. Right now vikings in ground mode have very little utility. They basically only work as adding insult to injury in an already won game or a last-resort panic unit which makes you pray that it was a marauder.
Vikings wont start owning shit on the ground just because you buff them slightly. Don't you understand this?
Marauders don't hard counter ground. Marauders hard counter Stalkers, Roaches, unsieged Tanks, Thors, and things that are trying to hit Light units for a lot of damage. Vikings hard counter many things in the air. They hard counter Brood Lords, Void Rays, Battlecruisers, Banshees, and Motherships. They shut down all kinds of dropships. They trade suitably with Phoenix, Corruptors, and Carriers. I don't need to mention the Colossus. They are also decent on the ground. They trade suitably with Stalkers and Hydralisks. They can be used to buffer a fair amount of damage and clean up leftover units. This is balanced. You are right that the Terran has to balance the Viking count "fairly well". It is also true that the Protoss has to balance the Colossus count fairly well. If the Protoss overproduces Colossi, then the Terran will have enough Vikings to kill all the Colossi and leave the Protoss with no AOE. This happens in a fair number of pro games. If it did not happen, then Protoss would never have to transition out of Colossi. You are coming into this with an astonishingly biased perspective that fails to realize that the Viking already has a fantastic safety net compared to really any other air to air dedicated unit, along with being incredibly effective and cost-efficient. When a Zerg player makes Corruptors, there is not this safety net. When a Protoss makes Phoenix, there is not this safety net. Only Terran gets this generous offer, and you ask for more. That is not reasonable. That is essentially a balance whine.
I can't believe it, of all the units in the Terran race you choose the Viking to complain about. What's next? Is the Marine too weak to AOE? It's just not RIGHT for units to be good against everything!
Vikings pretty much hard counter Carriers too with micro. Morrow was doing a unit test earlier in his stream with full upgrades. I think it was 60 Supply each. If it's a-move vs. a-move, Carriers win handily 70% remain. If Vikings stutter step at max range for powerful bursts, Vikings win handily 70% remain. As of right now, Protoss has no answer to mass Vikings and they never really did, which is exactly why Protoss air is never seen in PvT. Carriers need their BW micro to compete, because Interceptors leash too stupidly to be able to have some micro against Viking micro.
The only issue I see with Terran air is their lack of dealing with Zerg tech switches from BL to Ultra. How about an anti-Ultra ability that doesn't upset PvT balance? If Grounded Vikings are the primary target of splash attacks (Ultra cleave), make it so all the splash is absorbed by their new ability "Flanking Armor." I hardly think Seige Tanks and Colossus will care one bit, but it might work well against Ultras that rely on their huge splash range.
This is an artificial situation which will never happen in a real game. In reality the carrier is really good vs mech. While you kite the Vikings there is ample time for the carriers to do damage to the mech ground army. The only unit that really deals well with carriers is actually the marine. A bunch of stimmed marines will kill all the interceptors in 3 seconds.
The reason you never see carriers in TvP is the marine - not the viking.
It depends on how you play mech If you play the Lyyna bansheeheavy mechstyle, the moment he goes Carrier, you go BC and it's gg for him
On September 27 2012 15:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Yes, it costs 3x the cost of marines discounting gas, but does two times their unstimmed dps landed and +1 range? They are expensive, I agree a minor buff such as attack while moving could help them as meat shields for tanks or thors.
BUT THEY FLY!!!!!
OMFG stop overlooking the fundamental issue that the viking is the CHEAPEST FLYING UNIT IN THE GAME! With no assault mode at all it would be a well balanced, well priced unit.
This retarded shit is like complaining that maruaders are cheaper than stalkers. Stalkers can shoot UP. That matters a LOT.
Phoenix cost 150/100 and can only lift a unit when they have the energy, cannot harm buildings and cannot harm massive units, but that's ok because they FUCKING FLY!!!!
When will you idiots stop pretending that vikings CAN'T fly so that you can ask for a buff to their ground mode.
"Herp derp, but if you pretend that vikings can't fly then they are SUPER expensive and even cost GAS!!"
You can't separate between a unit that is decent vs ground and a unit that hard counters ground.
The current situation is that the terran has to balance the number of vikings fairly well to deal with colossus or just outright die. Right now vikings in ground mode have very little utility. They basically only work as adding insult to injury in an already won game or a last-resort panic unit which makes you pray that it was a marauder.
Vikings wont start owning shit on the ground just because you buff them slightly. Don't you understand this?
Marauders don't hard counter ground. Marauders hard counter Stalkers, Roaches, unsieged Tanks, Thors, and things that are trying to hit Light units for a lot of damage. Vikings hard counter many things in the air. They hard counter Brood Lords, Void Rays, Battlecruisers, Banshees, and Motherships. They shut down all kinds of dropships. They trade suitably with Phoenix, Corruptors, and Carriers. I don't need to mention the Colossus. They are also decent on the ground. They trade suitably with Stalkers and Hydralisks. They can be used to buffer a fair amount of damage and clean up leftover units. This is balanced. You are right that the Terran has to balance the Viking count "fairly well". It is also true that the Protoss has to balance the Colossus count fairly well. If the Protoss overproduces Colossi, then the Terran will have enough Vikings to kill all the Colossi and leave the Protoss with no AOE. This happens in a fair number of pro games. If it did not happen, then Protoss would never have to transition out of Colossi. You are coming into this with an astonishingly biased perspective that fails to realize that the Viking already has a fantastic safety net compared to really any other air to air dedicated unit, along with being incredibly effective and cost-efficient. When a Zerg player makes Corruptors, there is not this safety net. When a Protoss makes Phoenix, there is not this safety net. Only Terran gets this generous offer, and you ask for more. That is not reasonable. That is essentially a balance whine.
I can't believe it, of all the units in the Terran race you choose the Viking to complain about. What's next? Is the Marine too weak to AOE? It's just not RIGHT for units to be good against everything!
Vikings pretty much hard counter Carriers too with micro. Morrow was doing a unit test earlier in his stream with full upgrades. I think it was 60 Supply each. If it's a-move vs. a-move, Carriers win handily 70% remain. If Vikings stutter step at max range for powerful bursts, Vikings win handily 70% remain. As of right now, Protoss has no answer to mass Vikings and they never really did, which is exactly why Protoss air is never seen in PvT. Carriers need their BW micro to compete, because Interceptors leash too stupidly to be able to have some micro against Viking micro.
The only issue I see with Terran air is their lack of dealing with Zerg tech switches from BL to Ultra. How about an anti-Ultra ability that doesn't upset PvT balance? If Grounded Vikings are the primary target of splash attacks (Ultra cleave), make it so all the splash is absorbed by their new ability "Flanking Armor." I hardly think Seige Tanks and Colossus will care one bit, but it might work well against Ultras that rely on their huge splash range.
This is an artificial situation which will never happen in a real game. In reality the carrier is really good vs mech. While you kite the Vikings there is ample time for the carriers to do damage to the mech ground army. The only unit that really deals well with carriers is actually the marine. A bunch of stimmed marines will kill all the interceptors in 3 seconds.
The reason you never see carriers in TvP is the marine - not the viking.
It's both, honestly. And because we're talking about Mech, Marines are a nonissue. Since Carriers are slower and more cumbersome, there's no way to gain a micro advantage over the Vikings. They will always be kited. It's like a Roach kiting a legless Zealot. There's nothing the Zealot can do except a-move and pray it can catch up. If he runs, he'll be kited. If he pursues he will be kited. Refocusing the Carriers on the ground fight will only guarantee a loss of all your Carriers.
you are terribly wrong. Vikings arent good vs Carriers if you dont have a lot more than # of carriers.
When you attack with 9 range vikings you have to stop for a moment. in that time the carrier will get in his 8 range and lunch the interceptors. the interceptors give you 6 more range. they will fight against the vikings until they are out of the 14 range. then you can start attacking again with vikings but you already lost a (huge) amount of vikings in that first "fight". tldr: if you have like 6 carriers your vikings will melt. Thors dont help and turrets may be the only help when going mech.
5 widow mines under the vikings = all interceptors dead ^^
You know that Widow Mines dont attack "spawned units"? You know that they do friendly fire? and what if protoss has detection?
they should work like mecha-tengus in RA3, fast transformation with a CD most of the viking usualy die before they can switch form cause it takes so long
On September 27 2012 15:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Yes, it costs 3x the cost of marines discounting gas, but does two times their unstimmed dps landed and +1 range? They are expensive, I agree a minor buff such as attack while moving could help them as meat shields for tanks or thors.
BUT THEY FLY!!!!!
OMFG stop overlooking the fundamental issue that the viking is the CHEAPEST FLYING UNIT IN THE GAME! With no assault mode at all it would be a well balanced, well priced unit.
This retarded shit is like complaining that maruaders are cheaper than stalkers. Stalkers can shoot UP. That matters a LOT.
Phoenix cost 150/100 and can only lift a unit when they have the energy, cannot harm buildings and cannot harm massive units, but that's ok because they FUCKING FLY!!!!
When will you idiots stop pretending that vikings CAN'T fly so that you can ask for a buff to their ground mode.
"Herp derp, but if you pretend that vikings can't fly then they are SUPER expensive and even cost GAS!!"
You can't separate between a unit that is decent vs ground and a unit that hard counters ground.
The current situation is that the terran has to balance the number of vikings fairly well to deal with colossus or just outright die. Right now vikings in ground mode have very little utility. They basically only work as adding insult to injury in an already won game or a last-resort panic unit which makes you pray that it was a marauder.
Vikings wont start owning shit on the ground just because you buff them slightly. Don't you understand this?
Marauders don't hard counter ground. Marauders hard counter Stalkers, Roaches, unsieged Tanks, Thors, and things that are trying to hit Light units for a lot of damage. Vikings hard counter many things in the air. They hard counter Brood Lords, Void Rays, Battlecruisers, Banshees, and Motherships. They shut down all kinds of dropships. They trade suitably with Phoenix, Corruptors, and Carriers. I don't need to mention the Colossus. They are also decent on the ground. They trade suitably with Stalkers and Hydralisks. They can be used to buffer a fair amount of damage and clean up leftover units. This is balanced. You are right that the Terran has to balance the Viking count "fairly well". It is also true that the Protoss has to balance the Colossus count fairly well. If the Protoss overproduces Colossi, then the Terran will have enough Vikings to kill all the Colossi and leave the Protoss with no AOE. This happens in a fair number of pro games. If it did not happen, then Protoss would never have to transition out of Colossi. You are coming into this with an astonishingly biased perspective that fails to realize that the Viking already has a fantastic safety net compared to really any other air to air dedicated unit, along with being incredibly effective and cost-efficient. When a Zerg player makes Corruptors, there is not this safety net. When a Protoss makes Phoenix, there is not this safety net. Only Terran gets this generous offer, and you ask for more. That is not reasonable. That is essentially a balance whine.
I can't believe it, of all the units in the Terran race you choose the Viking to complain about. What's next? Is the Marine too weak to AOE? It's just not RIGHT for units to be good against everything!
Vikings pretty much hard counter Carriers too with micro. Morrow was doing a unit test earlier in his stream with full upgrades. I think it was 60 Supply each. If it's a-move vs. a-move, Carriers win handily 70% remain. If Vikings stutter step at max range for powerful bursts, Vikings win handily 70% remain. As of right now, Protoss has no answer to mass Vikings and they never really did, which is exactly why Protoss air is never seen in PvT. Carriers need their BW micro to compete, because Interceptors leash too stupidly to be able to have some micro against Viking micro.
The only issue I see with Terran air is their lack of dealing with Zerg tech switches from BL to Ultra. How about an anti-Ultra ability that doesn't upset PvT balance? If Grounded Vikings are the primary target of splash attacks (Ultra cleave), make it so all the splash is absorbed by their new ability "Flanking Armor." I hardly think Seige Tanks and Colossus will care one bit, but it might work well against Ultras that rely on their huge splash range.
This is an artificial situation which will never happen in a real game. In reality the carrier is really good vs mech. While you kite the Vikings there is ample time for the carriers to do damage to the mech ground army. The only unit that really deals well with carriers is actually the marine. A bunch of stimmed marines will kill all the interceptors in 3 seconds.
The reason you never see carriers in TvP is the marine - not the viking.
It's both, honestly. And because we're talking about Mech, Marines are a nonissue. Since Carriers are slower and more cumbersome, there's no way to gain a micro advantage over the Vikings. They will always be kited. It's like a Roach kiting a legless Zealot. There's nothing the Zealot can do except a-move and pray it can catch up. If he runs, he'll be kited. If he pursues he will be kited. Refocusing the Carriers on the ground fight will only guarantee a loss of all your Carriers.
you are terribly wrong. Vikings arent good vs Carriers if you dont have a lot more than # of carriers.
When you attack with 9 range vikings you have to stop for a moment. in that time the carrier will get in his 8 range and lunch the interceptors. the interceptors give you 6 more range. they will fight against the vikings until they are out of the 14 range. then you can start attacking again with vikings but you already lost a (huge) amount of vikings in that first "fight". tldr: if you have like 6 carriers your vikings will melt. Thors dont help and turrets may be the only help when going mech.
5 widow mines under the vikings = all interceptors dead ^^
You know that Widow Mines dont attack "spawned units"? You know that they do friendly fire? and what if protoss has detection?
they dont automatically attack spawned units! turn off autoattack and manually attack interceptors. that works?! (dont have beta so somebody needs to confirm that).
split vikings and you will friendly fire some but kill lots of interceptors. more micro = good thing.
detection = 1 scan away with mass vikings ^^
carriers will hopefully be viable vs mech and no they wont be OP. thor + vikings + BCs + ravens + widow mines will do fine.
On September 27 2012 15:11 Kharnage wrote: [quote]
BUT THEY FLY!!!!!
OMFG stop overlooking the fundamental issue that the viking is the CHEAPEST FLYING UNIT IN THE GAME! With no assault mode at all it would be a well balanced, well priced unit.
This retarded shit is like complaining that maruaders are cheaper than stalkers. Stalkers can shoot UP. That matters a LOT.
Phoenix cost 150/100 and can only lift a unit when they have the energy, cannot harm buildings and cannot harm massive units, but that's ok because they FUCKING FLY!!!!
When will you idiots stop pretending that vikings CAN'T fly so that you can ask for a buff to their ground mode.
"Herp derp, but if you pretend that vikings can't fly then they are SUPER expensive and even cost GAS!!"
You can't separate between a unit that is decent vs ground and a unit that hard counters ground.
The current situation is that the terran has to balance the number of vikings fairly well to deal with colossus or just outright die. Right now vikings in ground mode have very little utility. They basically only work as adding insult to injury in an already won game or a last-resort panic unit which makes you pray that it was a marauder.
Vikings wont start owning shit on the ground just because you buff them slightly. Don't you understand this?
Marauders don't hard counter ground. Marauders hard counter Stalkers, Roaches, unsieged Tanks, Thors, and things that are trying to hit Light units for a lot of damage. Vikings hard counter many things in the air. They hard counter Brood Lords, Void Rays, Battlecruisers, Banshees, and Motherships. They shut down all kinds of dropships. They trade suitably with Phoenix, Corruptors, and Carriers. I don't need to mention the Colossus. They are also decent on the ground. They trade suitably with Stalkers and Hydralisks. They can be used to buffer a fair amount of damage and clean up leftover units. This is balanced. You are right that the Terran has to balance the Viking count "fairly well". It is also true that the Protoss has to balance the Colossus count fairly well. If the Protoss overproduces Colossi, then the Terran will have enough Vikings to kill all the Colossi and leave the Protoss with no AOE. This happens in a fair number of pro games. If it did not happen, then Protoss would never have to transition out of Colossi. You are coming into this with an astonishingly biased perspective that fails to realize that the Viking already has a fantastic safety net compared to really any other air to air dedicated unit, along with being incredibly effective and cost-efficient. When a Zerg player makes Corruptors, there is not this safety net. When a Protoss makes Phoenix, there is not this safety net. Only Terran gets this generous offer, and you ask for more. That is not reasonable. That is essentially a balance whine.
I can't believe it, of all the units in the Terran race you choose the Viking to complain about. What's next? Is the Marine too weak to AOE? It's just not RIGHT for units to be good against everything!
Vikings pretty much hard counter Carriers too with micro. Morrow was doing a unit test earlier in his stream with full upgrades. I think it was 60 Supply each. If it's a-move vs. a-move, Carriers win handily 70% remain. If Vikings stutter step at max range for powerful bursts, Vikings win handily 70% remain. As of right now, Protoss has no answer to mass Vikings and they never really did, which is exactly why Protoss air is never seen in PvT. Carriers need their BW micro to compete, because Interceptors leash too stupidly to be able to have some micro against Viking micro.
The only issue I see with Terran air is their lack of dealing with Zerg tech switches from BL to Ultra. How about an anti-Ultra ability that doesn't upset PvT balance? If Grounded Vikings are the primary target of splash attacks (Ultra cleave), make it so all the splash is absorbed by their new ability "Flanking Armor." I hardly think Seige Tanks and Colossus will care one bit, but it might work well against Ultras that rely on their huge splash range.
This is an artificial situation which will never happen in a real game. In reality the carrier is really good vs mech. While you kite the Vikings there is ample time for the carriers to do damage to the mech ground army. The only unit that really deals well with carriers is actually the marine. A bunch of stimmed marines will kill all the interceptors in 3 seconds.
The reason you never see carriers in TvP is the marine - not the viking.
It's both, honestly. And because we're talking about Mech, Marines are a nonissue. Since Carriers are slower and more cumbersome, there's no way to gain a micro advantage over the Vikings. They will always be kited. It's like a Roach kiting a legless Zealot. There's nothing the Zealot can do except a-move and pray it can catch up. If he runs, he'll be kited. If he pursues he will be kited. Refocusing the Carriers on the ground fight will only guarantee a loss of all your Carriers.
you are terribly wrong. Vikings arent good vs Carriers if you dont have a lot more than # of carriers.
When you attack with 9 range vikings you have to stop for a moment. in that time the carrier will get in his 8 range and lunch the interceptors. the interceptors give you 6 more range. they will fight against the vikings until they are out of the 14 range. then you can start attacking again with vikings but you already lost a (huge) amount of vikings in that first "fight". tldr: if you have like 6 carriers your vikings will melt. Thors dont help and turrets may be the only help when going mech.
5 widow mines under the vikings = all interceptors dead ^^
You know that Widow Mines dont attack "spawned units"? You know that they do friendly fire? and what if protoss has detection?
they dont automatically attack spawned units! turn off autoattack and manually attack interceptors. that works?! (dont have beta so somebody needs to confirm that).
split vikings and you will friendly fire some but kill lots of interceptors. more micro = good thing.
detection = 1 scan away with mass vikings ^^
carriers will hopefully be viable vs mech and no they wont be OP. thor + vikings + BCs + ravens + widow mines will do fine.
Thors, vikings and ravens are bad vs carriers. especially thors dont. i play beta. i tried to fight carriers with thor vikings turrets and it didnt work. you cant attack interceptors with mines because you cant target interceptors in SC2. You should know that if you played SC2.
adn scanning doesnt help you when its hidden or you dont hit the right spot.
im sorry to say it but you dont have an idea what you are takling about
On September 27 2012 18:44 one-one-one wrote: [quote]
You can't separate between a unit that is decent vs ground and a unit that hard counters ground.
The current situation is that the terran has to balance the number of vikings fairly well to deal with colossus or just outright die. Right now vikings in ground mode have very little utility. They basically only work as adding insult to injury in an already won game or a last-resort panic unit which makes you pray that it was a marauder.
Vikings wont start owning shit on the ground just because you buff them slightly. Don't you understand this?
Marauders don't hard counter ground. Marauders hard counter Stalkers, Roaches, unsieged Tanks, Thors, and things that are trying to hit Light units for a lot of damage. Vikings hard counter many things in the air. They hard counter Brood Lords, Void Rays, Battlecruisers, Banshees, and Motherships. They shut down all kinds of dropships. They trade suitably with Phoenix, Corruptors, and Carriers. I don't need to mention the Colossus. They are also decent on the ground. They trade suitably with Stalkers and Hydralisks. They can be used to buffer a fair amount of damage and clean up leftover units. This is balanced. You are right that the Terran has to balance the Viking count "fairly well". It is also true that the Protoss has to balance the Colossus count fairly well. If the Protoss overproduces Colossi, then the Terran will have enough Vikings to kill all the Colossi and leave the Protoss with no AOE. This happens in a fair number of pro games. If it did not happen, then Protoss would never have to transition out of Colossi. You are coming into this with an astonishingly biased perspective that fails to realize that the Viking already has a fantastic safety net compared to really any other air to air dedicated unit, along with being incredibly effective and cost-efficient. When a Zerg player makes Corruptors, there is not this safety net. When a Protoss makes Phoenix, there is not this safety net. Only Terran gets this generous offer, and you ask for more. That is not reasonable. That is essentially a balance whine.
I can't believe it, of all the units in the Terran race you choose the Viking to complain about. What's next? Is the Marine too weak to AOE? It's just not RIGHT for units to be good against everything!
Vikings pretty much hard counter Carriers too with micro. Morrow was doing a unit test earlier in his stream with full upgrades. I think it was 60 Supply each. If it's a-move vs. a-move, Carriers win handily 70% remain. If Vikings stutter step at max range for powerful bursts, Vikings win handily 70% remain. As of right now, Protoss has no answer to mass Vikings and they never really did, which is exactly why Protoss air is never seen in PvT. Carriers need their BW micro to compete, because Interceptors leash too stupidly to be able to have some micro against Viking micro.
The only issue I see with Terran air is their lack of dealing with Zerg tech switches from BL to Ultra. How about an anti-Ultra ability that doesn't upset PvT balance? If Grounded Vikings are the primary target of splash attacks (Ultra cleave), make it so all the splash is absorbed by their new ability "Flanking Armor." I hardly think Seige Tanks and Colossus will care one bit, but it might work well against Ultras that rely on their huge splash range.
This is an artificial situation which will never happen in a real game. In reality the carrier is really good vs mech. While you kite the Vikings there is ample time for the carriers to do damage to the mech ground army. The only unit that really deals well with carriers is actually the marine. A bunch of stimmed marines will kill all the interceptors in 3 seconds.
The reason you never see carriers in TvP is the marine - not the viking.
It's both, honestly. And because we're talking about Mech, Marines are a nonissue. Since Carriers are slower and more cumbersome, there's no way to gain a micro advantage over the Vikings. They will always be kited. It's like a Roach kiting a legless Zealot. There's nothing the Zealot can do except a-move and pray it can catch up. If he runs, he'll be kited. If he pursues he will be kited. Refocusing the Carriers on the ground fight will only guarantee a loss of all your Carriers.
you are terribly wrong. Vikings arent good vs Carriers if you dont have a lot more than # of carriers.
When you attack with 9 range vikings you have to stop for a moment. in that time the carrier will get in his 8 range and lunch the interceptors. the interceptors give you 6 more range. they will fight against the vikings until they are out of the 14 range. then you can start attacking again with vikings but you already lost a (huge) amount of vikings in that first "fight". tldr: if you have like 6 carriers your vikings will melt. Thors dont help and turrets may be the only help when going mech.
5 widow mines under the vikings = all interceptors dead ^^
You know that Widow Mines dont attack "spawned units"? You know that they do friendly fire? and what if protoss has detection?
they dont automatically attack spawned units! turn off autoattack and manually attack interceptors. that works?! (dont have beta so somebody needs to confirm that).
split vikings and you will friendly fire some but kill lots of interceptors. more micro = good thing.
detection = 1 scan away with mass vikings ^^
carriers will hopefully be viable vs mech and no they wont be OP. thor + vikings + BCs + ravens + widow mines will do fine.
Thors, vikings and ravens are bad vs carriers. especially thors dont. i play beta. i tried to fight carriers with thor vikings turrets and it didnt work. you cant attack interceptors with mines because you cant target interceptors in SC2. You should know that if you played SC2.
adn scanning doesnt help you when its hidden or you dont hit the right spot.
im sorry to say it but you dont have an idea what you are takling about
that is just outright wrong. you can target interceptors in sc2. you cant click on them but you can target them. fungal for example hits interceptors so i think HSM and widow mines and storm will also hit them.
so it seems like you have no idea what you are talking about. stop insulting people that are right...
On September 27 2012 19:02 Acritter wrote: [quote] Marauders don't hard counter ground. Marauders hard counter Stalkers, Roaches, unsieged Tanks, Thors, and things that are trying to hit Light units for a lot of damage. Vikings hard counter many things in the air. They hard counter Brood Lords, Void Rays, Battlecruisers, Banshees, and Motherships. They shut down all kinds of dropships. They trade suitably with Phoenix, Corruptors, and Carriers. I don't need to mention the Colossus. They are also decent on the ground. They trade suitably with Stalkers and Hydralisks. They can be used to buffer a fair amount of damage and clean up leftover units. This is balanced. You are right that the Terran has to balance the Viking count "fairly well". It is also true that the Protoss has to balance the Colossus count fairly well. If the Protoss overproduces Colossi, then the Terran will have enough Vikings to kill all the Colossi and leave the Protoss with no AOE. This happens in a fair number of pro games. If it did not happen, then Protoss would never have to transition out of Colossi. You are coming into this with an astonishingly biased perspective that fails to realize that the Viking already has a fantastic safety net compared to really any other air to air dedicated unit, along with being incredibly effective and cost-efficient. When a Zerg player makes Corruptors, there is not this safety net. When a Protoss makes Phoenix, there is not this safety net. Only Terran gets this generous offer, and you ask for more. That is not reasonable. That is essentially a balance whine.
I can't believe it, of all the units in the Terran race you choose the Viking to complain about. What's next? Is the Marine too weak to AOE? It's just not RIGHT for units to be good against everything!
Vikings pretty much hard counter Carriers too with micro. Morrow was doing a unit test earlier in his stream with full upgrades. I think it was 60 Supply each. If it's a-move vs. a-move, Carriers win handily 70% remain. If Vikings stutter step at max range for powerful bursts, Vikings win handily 70% remain. As of right now, Protoss has no answer to mass Vikings and they never really did, which is exactly why Protoss air is never seen in PvT. Carriers need their BW micro to compete, because Interceptors leash too stupidly to be able to have some micro against Viking micro.
The only issue I see with Terran air is their lack of dealing with Zerg tech switches from BL to Ultra. How about an anti-Ultra ability that doesn't upset PvT balance? If Grounded Vikings are the primary target of splash attacks (Ultra cleave), make it so all the splash is absorbed by their new ability "Flanking Armor." I hardly think Seige Tanks and Colossus will care one bit, but it might work well against Ultras that rely on their huge splash range.
This is an artificial situation which will never happen in a real game. In reality the carrier is really good vs mech. While you kite the Vikings there is ample time for the carriers to do damage to the mech ground army. The only unit that really deals well with carriers is actually the marine. A bunch of stimmed marines will kill all the interceptors in 3 seconds.
The reason you never see carriers in TvP is the marine - not the viking.
It's both, honestly. And because we're talking about Mech, Marines are a nonissue. Since Carriers are slower and more cumbersome, there's no way to gain a micro advantage over the Vikings. They will always be kited. It's like a Roach kiting a legless Zealot. There's nothing the Zealot can do except a-move and pray it can catch up. If he runs, he'll be kited. If he pursues he will be kited. Refocusing the Carriers on the ground fight will only guarantee a loss of all your Carriers.
you are terribly wrong. Vikings arent good vs Carriers if you dont have a lot more than # of carriers.
When you attack with 9 range vikings you have to stop for a moment. in that time the carrier will get in his 8 range and lunch the interceptors. the interceptors give you 6 more range. they will fight against the vikings until they are out of the 14 range. then you can start attacking again with vikings but you already lost a (huge) amount of vikings in that first "fight". tldr: if you have like 6 carriers your vikings will melt. Thors dont help and turrets may be the only help when going mech.
5 widow mines under the vikings = all interceptors dead ^^
You know that Widow Mines dont attack "spawned units"? You know that they do friendly fire? and what if protoss has detection?
they dont automatically attack spawned units! turn off autoattack and manually attack interceptors. that works?! (dont have beta so somebody needs to confirm that).
split vikings and you will friendly fire some but kill lots of interceptors. more micro = good thing.
detection = 1 scan away with mass vikings ^^
carriers will hopefully be viable vs mech and no they wont be OP. thor + vikings + BCs + ravens + widow mines will do fine.
Thors, vikings and ravens are bad vs carriers. especially thors dont. i play beta. i tried to fight carriers with thor vikings turrets and it didnt work. you cant attack interceptors with mines because you cant target interceptors in SC2. You should know that if you played SC2.
adn scanning doesnt help you when its hidden or you dont hit the right spot.
im sorry to say it but you dont have an idea what you are takling about
that is just outright wrong. you can target interceptors in sc2. you cant click on them but you can target them. fungal for example hits interceptors so i think HSM and widow mines and storm will also hit them.
so it seems like you have no idea what you are talking about. stop insulting people that are right...
to be correct. You can't target interceptors with storm or fungal, but you can target the area where they are. With widow mines you have to target the unit, which you can't if it is not clickable. Of course you can do cutsie moves like target something (maybe even another widow mine) that is around the interceptors, yet I'm not sure how efficient that really is.
Yet I have to disagree that Vikings are "bad" vs Carriers. They win in the low amounts and lose in the high amounts. They should at least buy you enough time to get out BCs or widow mines unless a Protoss manages to surprise you with 6+ Carriers - at which point you SHOULD lose. There really shouldn't be a composition that can overcome a huge surprise techswitch without preparedness. I know there are such for each race, but that's not how the game should be - though it is kind of needed to be in the game vs medium Zerg switches.
You cant use the mines against interceptors. Interceptors are realy spread out,i dont see a mine working in this situation at all, the idea alone just seems silly tbh. Then again, i dont have beta lol so what do i know.However, I did never see morrow use mines against interceptors and he uses mines alot , it just seems not practical at all. Turrets are verry good though against interceptors i have to admit, and a big amount of turrets with building armour is verry difficult to deal with for carriers, it also safes your army as the interceptors will first target the turrets because they are the ones firing at them, and with building armour turrets are verry durable against interceptor 2x5 attack.
Carriers are actually very good against Vikings considering that they also rape everything else a Mech-ing terran has.
You cannot kite carriers with Vikings because there is only a 1 range difference and vikings need to decelerate stop, reverse, and accelerate for each shot and interceptors have an extra 6 range (14 range) once released.
On September 27 2012 15:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Yes, it costs 3x the cost of marines discounting gas, but does two times their unstimmed dps landed and +1 range? They are expensive, I agree a minor buff such as attack while moving could help them as meat shields for tanks or thors.
BUT THEY FLY!!!!!
OMFG stop overlooking the fundamental issue that the viking is the CHEAPEST FLYING UNIT IN THE GAME! With no assault mode at all it would be a well balanced, well priced unit.
This retarded shit is like complaining that maruaders are cheaper than stalkers. Stalkers can shoot UP. That matters a LOT.
Phoenix cost 150/100 and can only lift a unit when they have the energy, cannot harm buildings and cannot harm massive units, but that's ok because they FUCKING FLY!!!!
When will you idiots stop pretending that vikings CAN'T fly so that you can ask for a buff to their ground mode.
"Herp derp, but if you pretend that vikings can't fly then they are SUPER expensive and even cost GAS!!"
You can't separate between a unit that is decent vs ground and a unit that hard counters ground.
The current situation is that the terran has to balance the number of vikings fairly well to deal with colossus or just outright die. Right now vikings in ground mode have very little utility. They basically only work as adding insult to injury in an already won game or a last-resort panic unit which makes you pray that it was a marauder.
Vikings wont start owning shit on the ground just because you buff them slightly. Don't you understand this?
Marauders don't hard counter ground. Marauders hard counter Stalkers, Roaches, unsieged Tanks, Thors, and things that are trying to hit Light units for a lot of damage. Vikings hard counter many things in the air. They hard counter Brood Lords, Void Rays, Battlecruisers, Banshees, and Motherships. They shut down all kinds of dropships. They trade suitably with Phoenix, Corruptors, and Carriers. I don't need to mention the Colossus. They are also decent on the ground. They trade suitably with Stalkers and Hydralisks. They can be used to buffer a fair amount of damage and clean up leftover units. This is balanced. You are right that the Terran has to balance the Viking count "fairly well". It is also true that the Protoss has to balance the Colossus count fairly well. If the Protoss overproduces Colossi, then the Terran will have enough Vikings to kill all the Colossi and leave the Protoss with no AOE. This happens in a fair number of pro games. If it did not happen, then Protoss would never have to transition out of Colossi. You are coming into this with an astonishingly biased perspective that fails to realize that the Viking already has a fantastic safety net compared to really any other air to air dedicated unit, along with being incredibly effective and cost-efficient. When a Zerg player makes Corruptors, there is not this safety net. When a Protoss makes Phoenix, there is not this safety net. Only Terran gets this generous offer, and you ask for more. That is not reasonable. That is essentially a balance whine.
I can't believe it, of all the units in the Terran race you choose the Viking to complain about. What's next? Is the Marine too weak to AOE? It's just not RIGHT for units to be good against everything!
Vikings pretty much hard counter Carriers too with micro. Morrow was doing a unit test earlier in his stream with full upgrades. I think it was 60 Supply each. If it's a-move vs. a-move, Carriers win handily 70% remain. If Vikings stutter step at max range for powerful bursts, Vikings win handily 70% remain. As of right now, Protoss has no answer to mass Vikings and they never really did, which is exactly why Protoss air is never seen in PvT. Carriers need their BW micro to compete, because Interceptors leash too stupidly to be able to have some micro against Viking micro.
The only issue I see with Terran air is their lack of dealing with Zerg tech switches from BL to Ultra. How about an anti-Ultra ability that doesn't upset PvT balance? If Grounded Vikings are the primary target of splash attacks (Ultra cleave), make it so all the splash is absorbed by their new ability "Flanking Armor." I hardly think Seige Tanks and Colossus will care one bit, but it might work well against Ultras that rely on their huge splash range.
I deliberately tried to undervalue the Viking against the Carrier, because I was aware that there's a lot of variance. Different players have had very different results with the unit. Like, what if it's Carrier/Chargelot against Marine/Viking? Or Carrier/Archon? Because of how much the Carrier interacts with every unit on the battlefield, I don't believe I'm qualified to make a complete judgment from pure theory. It's going to take a good few pro games to give a proper analysis of the situation.
And the BL/Ultra issue is mostly a problem with the Broodlord being too strong, in my opinion. Not a balance complaint, a design complaint. It drags certain reactions out of players that create unfortunate situations like the travesty that is lategame PvZ (Starcraft: Land the Vortex!) and the awkward position of lategame TvZ. The best solution that comes to mind is a slight increase in Ultralisk build time: not back to the stupidly high initial value, but enough that Terran gets a little more switching time. Maybe some way to scout if the Zerg is remaxing on Ultras? Or maybe the problem could be addressed by a Mech composition that works Banshees and Thors in? Not as strong as Marauders against Ultras, but something to work with.
On September 27 2012 15:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Yes, it costs 3x the cost of marines discounting gas, but does two times their unstimmed dps landed and +1 range? They are expensive, I agree a minor buff such as attack while moving could help them as meat shields for tanks or thors.
BUT THEY FLY!!!!!
OMFG stop overlooking the fundamental issue that the viking is the CHEAPEST FLYING UNIT IN THE GAME! With no assault mode at all it would be a well balanced, well priced unit.
This retarded shit is like complaining that maruaders are cheaper than stalkers. Stalkers can shoot UP. That matters a LOT.
Phoenix cost 150/100 and can only lift a unit when they have the energy, cannot harm buildings and cannot harm massive units, but that's ok because they FUCKING FLY!!!!
When will you idiots stop pretending that vikings CAN'T fly so that you can ask for a buff to their ground mode.
"Herp derp, but if you pretend that vikings can't fly then they are SUPER expensive and even cost GAS!!"
You can't separate between a unit that is decent vs ground and a unit that hard counters ground.
The current situation is that the terran has to balance the number of vikings fairly well to deal with colossus or just outright die. Right now vikings in ground mode have very little utility. They basically only work as adding insult to injury in an already won game or a last-resort panic unit which makes you pray that it was a marauder.
Vikings wont start owning shit on the ground just because you buff them slightly. Don't you understand this?
Marauders don't hard counter ground. Marauders hard counter Stalkers, Roaches, unsieged Tanks, Thors, and things that are trying to hit Light units for a lot of damage. Vikings hard counter many things in the air. They hard counter Brood Lords, Void Rays, Battlecruisers, Banshees, and Motherships. They shut down all kinds of dropships. They trade suitably with Phoenix, Corruptors, and Carriers. I don't need to mention the Colossus. They are also decent on the ground. They trade suitably with Stalkers and Hydralisks. They can be used to buffer a fair amount of damage and clean up leftover units. This is balanced. You are right that the Terran has to balance the Viking count "fairly well". It is also true that the Protoss has to balance the Colossus count fairly well. If the Protoss overproduces Colossi, then the Terran will have enough Vikings to kill all the Colossi and leave the Protoss with no AOE. This happens in a fair number of pro games. If it did not happen, then Protoss would never have to transition out of Colossi. You are coming into this with an astonishingly biased perspective that fails to realize that the Viking already has a fantastic safety net compared to really any other air to air dedicated unit, along with being incredibly effective and cost-efficient. When a Zerg player makes Corruptors, there is not this safety net. When a Protoss makes Phoenix, there is not this safety net. Only Terran gets this generous offer, and you ask for more. That is not reasonable. That is essentially a balance whine.
I can't believe it, of all the units in the Terran race you choose the Viking to complain about. What's next? Is the Marine too weak to AOE? It's just not RIGHT for units to be good against everything!
Vikings pretty much hard counter Carriers too with micro. Morrow was doing a unit test earlier in his stream with full upgrades. I think it was 60 Supply each. If it's a-move vs. a-move, Carriers win handily 70% remain. If Vikings stutter step at max range for powerful bursts, Vikings win handily 70% remain. As of right now, Protoss has no answer to mass Vikings and they never really did, which is exactly why Protoss air is never seen in PvT. Carriers need their BW micro to compete, because Interceptors leash too stupidly to be able to have some micro against Viking micro.
The only issue I see with Terran air is their lack of dealing with Zerg tech switches from BL to Ultra. How about an anti-Ultra ability that doesn't upset PvT balance? If Grounded Vikings are the primary target of splash attacks (Ultra cleave), make it so all the splash is absorbed by their new ability "Flanking Armor." I hardly think Seige Tanks and Colossus will care one bit, but it might work well against Ultras that rely on their huge splash range.
This is an artificial situation which will never happen in a real game. In reality the carrier is really good vs mech. While you kite the Vikings there is ample time for the carriers to do damage to the mech ground army. The only unit that really deals well with carriers is actually the marine. A bunch of stimmed marines will kill all the interceptors in 3 seconds.
The reason you never see carriers in TvP is the marine - not the viking.
It's both, honestly. And because we're talking about Mech, Marines are a nonissue. Since Carriers are slower and more cumbersome, there's no way to gain a micro advantage over the Vikings. They will always be kited. It's like a Roach kiting a legless Zealot. There's nothing the Zealot can do except a-move and pray it can catch up. If he runs, he'll be kited. If he pursues he will be kited. Refocusing the Carriers on the ground fight will only guarantee a loss of all your Carriers.
you are terribly wrong. Vikings arent good vs Carriers if you dont have a lot more than # of carriers.
When you attack with 9 range vikings you have to stop for a moment. in that time the carrier will get in his 8 range and lunch the interceptors. the interceptors give you 6 more range. they will fight against the vikings until they are out of the 14 range. then you can start attacking again with vikings but you already lost a (huge) amount of vikings in that first "fight". tldr: if you have like 6 carriers your vikings will melt. Thors dont help and turrets may be the only help when going mech.
And when you pull out of that 8 range, the Interceptors all fly back. So while the 1 range tolerance is low and you'll probably take some hits, you can always pull back after the volley to abuse the stupid Interceptor AI.
On September 27 2012 15:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Yes, it costs 3x the cost of marines discounting gas, but does two times their unstimmed dps landed and +1 range? They are expensive, I agree a minor buff such as attack while moving could help them as meat shields for tanks or thors.
BUT THEY FLY!!!!!
OMFG stop overlooking the fundamental issue that the viking is the CHEAPEST FLYING UNIT IN THE GAME! With no assault mode at all it would be a well balanced, well priced unit.
This retarded shit is like complaining that maruaders are cheaper than stalkers. Stalkers can shoot UP. That matters a LOT.
Phoenix cost 150/100 and can only lift a unit when they have the energy, cannot harm buildings and cannot harm massive units, but that's ok because they FUCKING FLY!!!!
When will you idiots stop pretending that vikings CAN'T fly so that you can ask for a buff to their ground mode.
"Herp derp, but if you pretend that vikings can't fly then they are SUPER expensive and even cost GAS!!"
You can't separate between a unit that is decent vs ground and a unit that hard counters ground.
The current situation is that the terran has to balance the number of vikings fairly well to deal with colossus or just outright die. Right now vikings in ground mode have very little utility. They basically only work as adding insult to injury in an already won game or a last-resort panic unit which makes you pray that it was a marauder.
Vikings wont start owning shit on the ground just because you buff them slightly. Don't you understand this?
Marauders don't hard counter ground. Marauders hard counter Stalkers, Roaches, unsieged Tanks, Thors, and things that are trying to hit Light units for a lot of damage. Vikings hard counter many things in the air. They hard counter Brood Lords, Void Rays, Battlecruisers, Banshees, and Motherships. They shut down all kinds of dropships. They trade suitably with Phoenix, Corruptors, and Carriers. I don't need to mention the Colossus. They are also decent on the ground. They trade suitably with Stalkers and Hydralisks. They can be used to buffer a fair amount of damage and clean up leftover units. This is balanced. You are right that the Terran has to balance the Viking count "fairly well". It is also true that the Protoss has to balance the Colossus count fairly well. If the Protoss overproduces Colossi, then the Terran will have enough Vikings to kill all the Colossi and leave the Protoss with no AOE. This happens in a fair number of pro games. If it did not happen, then Protoss would never have to transition out of Colossi. You are coming into this with an astonishingly biased perspective that fails to realize that the Viking already has a fantastic safety net compared to really any other air to air dedicated unit, along with being incredibly effective and cost-efficient. When a Zerg player makes Corruptors, there is not this safety net. When a Protoss makes Phoenix, there is not this safety net. Only Terran gets this generous offer, and you ask for more. That is not reasonable. That is essentially a balance whine.
I can't believe it, of all the units in the Terran race you choose the Viking to complain about. What's next? Is the Marine too weak to AOE? It's just not RIGHT for units to be good against everything!
Vikings pretty much hard counter Carriers too with micro. Morrow was doing a unit test earlier in his stream with full upgrades. I think it was 60 Supply each. If it's a-move vs. a-move, Carriers win handily 70% remain. If Vikings stutter step at max range for powerful bursts, Vikings win handily 70% remain. As of right now, Protoss has no answer to mass Vikings and they never really did, which is exactly why Protoss air is never seen in PvT. Carriers need their BW micro to compete, because Interceptors leash too stupidly to be able to have some micro against Viking micro.
The only issue I see with Terran air is their lack of dealing with Zerg tech switches from BL to Ultra. How about an anti-Ultra ability that doesn't upset PvT balance? If Grounded Vikings are the primary target of splash attacks (Ultra cleave), make it so all the splash is absorbed by their new ability "Flanking Armor." I hardly think Seige Tanks and Colossus will care one bit, but it might work well against Ultras that rely on their huge splash range.
This is an artificial situation which will never happen in a real game. In reality the carrier is really good vs mech. While you kite the Vikings there is ample time for the carriers to do damage to the mech ground army. The only unit that really deals well with carriers is actually the marine. A bunch of stimmed marines will kill all the interceptors in 3 seconds.
The reason you never see carriers in TvP is the marine - not the viking.
It's both, honestly. And because we're talking about Mech, Marines are a nonissue. Since Carriers are slower and more cumbersome, there's no way to gain a micro advantage over the Vikings. They will always be kited. It's like a Roach kiting a legless Zealot. There's nothing the Zealot can do except a-move and pray it can catch up. If he runs, he'll be kited. If he pursues he will be kited. Refocusing the Carriers on the ground fight will only guarantee a loss of all your Carriers.
you are terribly wrong. Vikings arent good vs Carriers if you dont have a lot more than # of carriers.
When you attack with 9 range vikings you have to stop for a moment. in that time the carrier will get in his 8 range and lunch the interceptors. the interceptors give you 6 more range. they will fight against the vikings until they are out of the 14 range. then you can start attacking again with vikings but you already lost a (huge) amount of vikings in that first "fight". tldr: if you have like 6 carriers your vikings will melt. Thors dont help and turrets may be the only help when going mech.
And when you pull out of that 8 range, the Interceptors all fly back. So while the 1 range tolerance is low and you'll probably take some hits, you can always pull back after the volley to abuse the stupid Interceptor AI.
No it's 14 range once the interceptors are out, so kiting is impossible. Vikings need some kind of support to kill carriers unlike corruptors that have 2 armor and way more health. And the only real reliable support is marines
On September 27 2012 15:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: Yes, it costs 3x the cost of marines discounting gas, but does two times their unstimmed dps landed and +1 range? They are expensive, I agree a minor buff such as attack while moving could help them as meat shields for tanks or thors.
BUT THEY FLY!!!!!
OMFG stop overlooking the fundamental issue that the viking is the CHEAPEST FLYING UNIT IN THE GAME! With no assault mode at all it would be a well balanced, well priced unit.
This retarded shit is like complaining that maruaders are cheaper than stalkers. Stalkers can shoot UP. That matters a LOT.
Phoenix cost 150/100 and can only lift a unit when they have the energy, cannot harm buildings and cannot harm massive units, but that's ok because they FUCKING FLY!!!!
When will you idiots stop pretending that vikings CAN'T fly so that you can ask for a buff to their ground mode.
"Herp derp, but if you pretend that vikings can't fly then they are SUPER expensive and even cost GAS!!"
You can't separate between a unit that is decent vs ground and a unit that hard counters ground.
The current situation is that the terran has to balance the number of vikings fairly well to deal with colossus or just outright die. Right now vikings in ground mode have very little utility. They basically only work as adding insult to injury in an already won game or a last-resort panic unit which makes you pray that it was a marauder.
Vikings wont start owning shit on the ground just because you buff them slightly. Don't you understand this?
Marauders don't hard counter ground. Marauders hard counter Stalkers, Roaches, unsieged Tanks, Thors, and things that are trying to hit Light units for a lot of damage. Vikings hard counter many things in the air. They hard counter Brood Lords, Void Rays, Battlecruisers, Banshees, and Motherships. They shut down all kinds of dropships. They trade suitably with Phoenix, Corruptors, and Carriers. I don't need to mention the Colossus. They are also decent on the ground. They trade suitably with Stalkers and Hydralisks. They can be used to buffer a fair amount of damage and clean up leftover units. This is balanced. You are right that the Terran has to balance the Viking count "fairly well". It is also true that the Protoss has to balance the Colossus count fairly well. If the Protoss overproduces Colossi, then the Terran will have enough Vikings to kill all the Colossi and leave the Protoss with no AOE. This happens in a fair number of pro games. If it did not happen, then Protoss would never have to transition out of Colossi. You are coming into this with an astonishingly biased perspective that fails to realize that the Viking already has a fantastic safety net compared to really any other air to air dedicated unit, along with being incredibly effective and cost-efficient. When a Zerg player makes Corruptors, there is not this safety net. When a Protoss makes Phoenix, there is not this safety net. Only Terran gets this generous offer, and you ask for more. That is not reasonable. That is essentially a balance whine.
I can't believe it, of all the units in the Terran race you choose the Viking to complain about. What's next? Is the Marine too weak to AOE? It's just not RIGHT for units to be good against everything!
Vikings pretty much hard counter Carriers too with micro. Morrow was doing a unit test earlier in his stream with full upgrades. I think it was 60 Supply each. If it's a-move vs. a-move, Carriers win handily 70% remain. If Vikings stutter step at max range for powerful bursts, Vikings win handily 70% remain. As of right now, Protoss has no answer to mass Vikings and they never really did, which is exactly why Protoss air is never seen in PvT. Carriers need their BW micro to compete, because Interceptors leash too stupidly to be able to have some micro against Viking micro.
The only issue I see with Terran air is their lack of dealing with Zerg tech switches from BL to Ultra. How about an anti-Ultra ability that doesn't upset PvT balance? If Grounded Vikings are the primary target of splash attacks (Ultra cleave), make it so all the splash is absorbed by their new ability "Flanking Armor." I hardly think Seige Tanks and Colossus will care one bit, but it might work well against Ultras that rely on their huge splash range.
This is an artificial situation which will never happen in a real game. In reality the carrier is really good vs mech. While you kite the Vikings there is ample time for the carriers to do damage to the mech ground army. The only unit that really deals well with carriers is actually the marine. A bunch of stimmed marines will kill all the interceptors in 3 seconds.
The reason you never see carriers in TvP is the marine - not the viking.
It's both, honestly. And because we're talking about Mech, Marines are a nonissue. Since Carriers are slower and more cumbersome, there's no way to gain a micro advantage over the Vikings. They will always be kited. It's like a Roach kiting a legless Zealot. There's nothing the Zealot can do except a-move and pray it can catch up. If he runs, he'll be kited. If he pursues he will be kited. Refocusing the Carriers on the ground fight will only guarantee a loss of all your Carriers.
you are terribly wrong. Vikings arent good vs Carriers if you dont have a lot more than # of carriers.
When you attack with 9 range vikings you have to stop for a moment. in that time the carrier will get in his 8 range and lunch the interceptors. the interceptors give you 6 more range. they will fight against the vikings until they are out of the 14 range. then you can start attacking again with vikings but you already lost a (huge) amount of vikings in that first "fight". tldr: if you have like 6 carriers your vikings will melt. Thors dont help and turrets may be the only help when going mech.
And when you pull out of that 8 range, the Interceptors all fly back. So while the 1 range tolerance is low and you'll probably take some hits, you can always pull back after the volley to abuse the stupid Interceptor AI.
No it's 14 range once the interceptors are out, so kiting is impossible. Vikings need some kind of support to kill carriers unlike corruptors that have 2 armor and way more health. And the only real reliable support is marines
It's 14 range on that same target. You have to get back into 8 range to retarget. So it's 1 Volley, 1 Viking dies. 1 Volley, another Viking dies. Here's a hint, trading 1 Carrier for 1 Viking isn't a good trade.
On September 23 2012 01:32 GinDo wrote: Ground Vikings would be viable if:
1) Ground mode benefits from Mech Upgrades.
2) Drop the price to that of a Goliath.
Ground Vikings would be viable if:
1) Remove Vikings from the game.
2) Add the Goliath. :D :D :D
Seriously though, I think the Viking might also need more base armour or more base damage as well as your upgrade suggestion. I think the price might be okay, but you may be right about dropping it to Goliath price.
I really hate the OP's suggestion. How would you word in the game description? "Does not trigger Immortal's harden shield"? Awfully specific. But hopefully we'll see some other change to the Viking.
These "upgrade" suggestions are retarded, why do units need to be totally resdesigned before anyone even tries to adjust the numbers on the unit? I mean, even just changed the attack from a single attack for 12 damage to a double attack for 6 damage does the same effective thing without something as ridiculous as "ignores Immortal Shields" written on it. How does stuff like that get commented on?
Been thinking about this, I think the best solution would be to add a THIRD MODE, chicken walker mode. This mode hovers at 1.88 movement, doing same damage GtA and GtG as the old Goliath. This allows the Thor to be replaced as de facto GtA and thus change the Thor to something else, such as super tank role as was in the WoL alpha.
Ground Viking buff or the Upgrade changes would make terran terribly OP and the game more easy. They are already a strong counter to higher tech units then them such as the colossus, carrier or broodlord, no need for strong ground mode.
On October 03 2012 23:16 D4V3Z02 wrote: Ground Viking buff or the Upgrade changes would make terran terribly OP and the game more easy. They are already a strong counter to higher tech units then them such as the colossus, carrier or broodlord, no need for strong ground mode.
I don't think it needs to be "strong". Just better than what it is now.
-Blue-flame Hellions are guarenteed good harass in PvT. Need BW style Pylon blocking. -MsC makes early game PvT interesting. Keeps 1 Rax expand honest. (@15:00) Vikings can go toe to toe long enough to fight off Stalkers until reinforcements come. (@17:30) Terran doesn't take any advantage with an 80 supply lead. (@19:50) Vikings rapes MS. (@21:20) Terran completely overcommitted to Vikings. 17-18 Vikings to 2 Colossus and 1 Tempest. (@24:50) 200 supply Protoss army takes out 7 Tanks, Husky laments over how Tanks are so useless. (@25:05) Remaining Mech army annihilates Protoss army. (@27:40) Equal supply Immortal/Tempest/Archon/Zealot army raped by BH/Tank/Viking. (@27:50) Morrow shot himself in the foot for killing all his SCVs. (@31:05) 3 Vikings get MS even with Tempest support. (@31:25) Morrow mismicros and kills own unit right when engagement begins. Tanks caught off guard. Storms hit heavy BH composition. (@31:30) White-Ra wins because Morrow macro is basically done.
Honestly don't think Mech is in such a rough spot at the moment. It's all imaginary sentiment that Mech is so unwinnable. Terrans just don't like winning only 50% of the time. I don't see any suggestion from that game that Vikings are weak.
The thing about vikings vs carriers is that it is never ever like that in a real game. Theres rarely a moment where its vikings vs carriers without any other units. 2~3 HTs could instantly vaporise half the vikings count while forcing them to spread/take damage from interceptors. Or blink stalkers with carriers.
Same goes for the pure marine vs carrier comparisons. A few storms would literally kill them off.
Once a certain number of carriers hit the field, with the appropriate support it becomes very difficult to take them head on. So while i do think its possible that vikings can render carriers useless in the unit tester map, they are paper planes in real games because of how well carriers synergies with other units (if they have there micro mechanics back which looks like a good possibility).
On October 04 2012 12:34 YyapSsap wrote: The thing about vikings vs carriers is that it is never ever like that in a real game. Theres rarely a moment where its vikings vs carriers without any other units. 2~3 HTs could instantly vaporise half the vikings count while forcing them to spread/take damage from interceptors. Or blink stalkers with carriers.
Same goes for the pure marine vs carrier comparisons. A few storms would literally kill them off.
Once a certain number of carriers hit the field, with the appropriate support it becomes very difficult to take them head on. So while i do think its possible that vikings can render carriers useless in the unit tester map, they are paper planes in real games because of how well carriers synergies with other units (if they have there micro mechanics back which looks like a good possibility).
This is true, the fact remains is Protoss has tremendous synergy with its T3 units. For the Terran to produce the same effect, for every engagement he'll need at least 8 sieged tanks, some ghosts and 6-8 thors to even replicate the dps of several HTs. And by then the BC hasn't even come into firing range yet!
EPT
