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With all the attention on Tanks and Hellions and Firebattlehellions, you'd think that people would think about one of the other Terran units that has been around for a long time - Ground Vikings.
Ground Vikings are weak. REALLY weak. They weren't always so bad. IIRC at one point in WoL Beta they had 1 Armor and 14 damage and could compete toe-to-toe vs stalkers and hydralisks. Thing is, a usable Ground Viking would actually fill a lot of the holes in HotS Mech.
What do I mean by usable? I think it would be a viable unit with just two changes:
- Vikings may use either Mech or Air upgrades, whichever is highest. (this is the big one)
- Attack changed from 12 damage to 7x2 damage. This is only a 17% buff against normal units, and not a buff against high-Armor units, but is a 40% buff vs immortal shields.
Why would a usable Ground Viking fit well with Mech play?
1) You'll have a starport anyways, now that medivacs heal your firebattlehellions.
2) Vikings cover the main weakness of mech which is Air.
3) Vikings are amazingly supply-efficient. At 150/75/2 they have a 112.5:1 cost:supply ratio which is higher than anything except spellcasters and Banelings (150:1). HotS mech uses a lot of hellions (50:1) and widow mines (50:1) so you really need a supply-efficient unit to make up the difference.
4) Vikings are surprisingly good against Archons. Throw a ball of ground vikings into a ball of archons in Unit Tester. The viking's fast attack busts through shields while its bulky size and Mechanical nature makes the archon's attack highly ineffective.
With these changes, Ground Vikings would still be fairly weak and not a unit you'd really want to mass, but you could sprinkle a few into that mid-range crescent in between your hellions and tanks. They would do wonders against Archon and Immortal shields, while making you much less nervous about an air switch.
I'm not the first person to think of something similar:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6606901403
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6606432476
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6572270602
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better luck just asking for them to be classified as bio while on the ground :D :D :D
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i was actually thinking about this the other day. vikings are the final answer for mech. all the need is 1 armor and a dps change.
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I don't know why the fuck Blizzard hasn't thought about merging armory upgrades yet...Instead of having separate upgrades for ships and vehicles just add a fucking "Machines" upgrade that works for factory and Starport. With mech being way shittier than it was in Broodwar there is no reason to make it have a different upgrade path, not to mention that for some reason ship plating is expensive (starting at 150/150) for no goddamn reason other than it being like that in BW (which blizz insists they don't wanna copy).
I think this change alone would give people an incentive on using the current factory units, you wouldn't even need to buff Vikings maybe.
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On September 23 2012 01:03 mannerless wrote:
I don't know why the fuck Blizzard hasn't thought about merging armory upgrades yet...Instead of having separate upgrades for ships and vehicles just add a fucking "Machines" upgrade that works for factory and Starport. With mech being way shittier than it was in Broodwar there is no reason to make it have a different upgrade path, not to mention that for some reason ship plating is expensive (starting at 150/150) for no goddamn reason other than it being like that in BW (which blizz insists they don't wanna copy).
I think this change alone would give people an incentive on using the current factory units, you wouldn't even need to buff Vikings maybe.
Nah.
User was warned for this post
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On September 23 2012 01:05 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 01:03 mannerless wrote:
I don't know why the fuck Blizzard hasn't thought about merging armory upgrades yet...Instead of having separate upgrades for ships and vehicles just add a fucking "Machines" upgrade that works for factory and Starport. With mech being way shittier than it was in Broodwar there is no reason to make it have a different upgrade path, not to mention that for some reason ship plating is expensive (starting at 150/150) for no goddamn reason other than it being like that in BW (which blizz insists they don't wanna copy).
I think this change alone would give people an incentive on using the current factory units, you wouldn't even need to buff Vikings maybe. Nah.
I'm pretty sure all air armor upgrades start at 150/150 because air units are so mobile, if their armor upgrades were cheap you would always upgrade armor first in order to retain as many units as possible (think back to leenock MLG providence muta armor upgrades). Also, if armor upgrades were cheap, people might abuse capital ships (BC's already start with 3 armor... if you could rush to 4 or 5 armor BC's they might be TOO sturdy).
Although... T and P air armies are already rare as it is, maybe a 100/100 armor upgrade might encourage more air play 
edit:
Oh and also, to contribute to the original topic of the thread...
When they decided not to revamp the Thor or have an AA attack on the Warhound... I was really hoping they would do something to make the Viking more versatile. I think the armor upgrade is a great idea, and the 7x2 damage isn't bad either (although I worry 3/3 Vikings would be sooooo good... 4 armor 10x2 damage?)
I feel like if they modified the viking it would feel like a new unit... which is good!
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I posted this before: they should merge some armor upgrades to make air transitions easier for terran. For instance, have mech plating give air armor and have bio weapons give air weapons.
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Ground Vikings would be viable if:
1) Ground mode benefits from Mech Upgrades.
2) Drop the price to that of a Goliath.
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On September 23 2012 01:05 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Nah.
Good post!
On September 23 2012 01:16 spbelky wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 01:05 SarcasmMonster wrote:On September 23 2012 01:03 mannerless wrote:
I don't know why the fuck Blizzard hasn't thought about merging armory upgrades yet...Instead of having separate upgrades for ships and vehicles just add a fucking "Machines" upgrade that works for factory and Starport. With mech being way shittier than it was in Broodwar there is no reason to make it have a different upgrade path, not to mention that for some reason ship plating is expensive (starting at 150/150) for no goddamn reason other than it being like that in BW (which blizz insists they don't wanna copy).
I think this change alone would give people an incentive on using the current factory units, you wouldn't even need to buff Vikings maybe. Nah. I'm pretty sure all air armor upgrades start at 150/150 because air units are so mobile, if their armor upgrades were cheap you would always upgrade armor first in order to retain as many units as possible (think back to leenock MLG providence muta armor upgrades). Also, if armor upgrades were cheap, people might abuse capital ships (BC's already start with 3 armor... if you could rush to 4 or 5 armor BC's they might be TOO sturdy). Although... T and P air armies are already rare as it is, maybe a 100/100 armor upgrade might encourage more air play edit: Oh and also, to contribute to the original topic of the thread... When they decided not to revamp the Thor or have an AA attack on the Warhound... I was really hoping they would do something to make the Viking more versatile. I think the armor upgrade is a great idea, and the 7x2 damage isn't bad either ( although I worry 3/3 Vikings would be sooooo good... 4 armor 10x2 damage?)I feel like if they modified the viking it would feel like a new unit... which is good!
Alright then, keep armor as 150/150 but make it work for mech and air, having ships share upgrades with factory would make it so that Vikings could still keep 0 armor and not be OP @ 3-3. Also don't forget that Vikings have only 125 health, they die pretty quickly.
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This is not a good idea. The viking is already the best air superiority unit in the game. It takes out anything armored with ease, as well as anything that is massive, since those air units are all armored too. And it does this from 9 range, at a low unit cost. As a protoss, I would kill for this unit even if it didn't even have a ground mode.
Now you want to buff the ground damage, so that is deals damage pretty well to everything. Vikings already do this, though it may not seem like it, because people hardly ever use them on the ground (since it's air uses are so amazing). It has 12 ground DPS against everything already, which is a bit less than twice that of a stalker (6.9).
The viking is certainly not a unit that needs any more help. Instead you should be focusing on other units that are actually underused.
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i was thinking about the useless ground vikings few days ago, and i was wondering why noone ever said nothing about that. If blizzard can find a role to ground viking, and fix the thor ability, terran mech should be ok.
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On September 23 2012 01:47 Fig wrote:
This is not a good idea. The viking is already the best air superiority unit in the game. It takes out anything armored with ease, as well as anything that is massive, since those air units are all armored too. And it does this from 9 range, at a low unit cost. As a protoss, I would kill for this unit even if it didn't even have a ground mode.
Now you want to buff the ground damage, so that is deals damage pretty well to everything. Vikings already do this, though it may not seem like it, because people hardly ever use them on the ground (since it's air uses are so amazing). It has 12 ground DPS against everything already, which is a bit less than twice that of a stalker (6.9).
The viking is certainly not a unit that needs any more help. Instead you should be focusing on other units that are actually underused.
No. Ground mode vikings are bad.
And also, their ground weapons cant be upgraded. <<<----- this is wrong, sorry. but it would be better if mech weapons affected their ground attack.
edit: ground mode vikings was one of the things that was hit by Blizzard's blanket nerfs at the time when terrans were only doing abusive shit instead of developing solid play styles. The actual argument was that it was too good vs queens I think.
This should not apply anymore because Zergs has learned to make many queens and transfuse them when their hp gets in the red.
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On September 23 2012 01:52 one-one-one wrote:
And also, their ground weapons cant be upgraded.
Their ground attack benefits from Ship Weapons upgrade
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Mech and Air upgrades are separate for a reason. If an endgame Terran could switch between a tank based army and a Battlecruiser based army and have 3/3 upgrades "for free" it would just be ridiculous.
Vikings deserve to benefit from mech upgrades because their role is VERY similar to the Goliath from scBW. It is a weak anti-ground unit and a strong anti-air unit with very long range. Against any serious air army, Thors don't cut it, you need Vikes to defend your tanks from air. (just like Goliaths) Compared to the Golie it is more expensive and fragile mainly because of the advantage in mobility. (Vikings can chase down BLs and BCs/Carriers no matter where they retreat, Goliaths can't)
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On September 23 2012 01:52 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 01:47 Fig wrote:
This is not a good idea. The viking is already the best air superiority unit in the game. It takes out anything armored with ease, as well as anything that is massive, since those air units are all armored too. And it does this from 9 range, at a low unit cost. As a protoss, I would kill for this unit even if it didn't even have a ground mode.
Now you want to buff the ground damage, so that is deals damage pretty well to everything. Vikings already do this, though it may not seem like it, because people hardly ever use them on the ground (since it's air uses are so amazing). It has 12 ground DPS against everything already, which is a bit less than twice that of a stalker (6.9).
The viking is certainly not a unit that needs any more help. Instead you should be focusing on other units that are actually underused. No. Ground mode vikings are bad. And also, their ground weapons cant be upgraded. <<<----- this is wrong, sorry. but it would be better if mech weapons affected their ground attack. edit: ground mode vikings was one of the things that was hit by Blizzard's blanket nerfs at the time when terrans were only doing abusive shit instead of developing solid play styles. The actual argument was that it was too good vs queens I think. This should not apply anymore because Zergs has learned to make many queens and transfuse them when their hp gets in the red.
The problem I would say, is that many terran units are very specialized with what they do. Units like the Viking/Banshee/Marauder have such high DPS in their strong area because they are supposed to do one thing really well. The viking ground mode is basically just a little bonus for them, to increase their versatility a bit, like the phoenix's graviton beam.
It would be fine to make them more of an all-around unit by making the ground attack more useful, but you would have to nerf their already very strong air-to-air weapon.
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vikings are more than fine. they are superstrong antiair and as a bonus get a ground option. a buff is totally unneeded. ground attack is just for really rare occasions like harrassment on unprotected bases or as a emergency buffer for your ground army. viking ground is not supposed to be part of your standard ground army...
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On September 23 2012 02:05 Piousflea wrote:
Mech and Air upgrades are separate for a reason. If an endgame Terran could switch between a tank based army and a Battlecruiser based army and have 3/3 upgrades "for free" it would just be ridiculous.
Vikings deserve to benefit from mech upgrades because their role is VERY similar to the Goliath from scBW. It is a weak anti-ground unit and a strong anti-air unit with very long range. Against any serious air army, Thors don't cut it, you need Vikes to defend your tanks from air. (just like Goliaths) Compared to the Golie it is more expensive and fragile mainly because of the advantage in mobility. (Vikings can chase down BLs and BCs/Carriers no matter where they retreat, Goliaths can't)
LOL, you said "switch" between a tank based army to a BC based army. Do you know how long it takes to "switch" to a BC army? BC's take like a full in game minute to build. If they can make it further than the middle of the map, they will never make it back home if whoever you're playing has some sense.
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I think buffing it's ground attack is a decent thing to try out. However I completely disagree with the upgrade situation
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On September 23 2012 02:20 Fig wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 01:52 one-one-one wrote:On September 23 2012 01:47 Fig wrote:
This is not a good idea. The viking is already the best air superiority unit in the game. It takes out anything armored with ease, as well as anything that is massive, since those air units are all armored too. And it does this from 9 range, at a low unit cost. As a protoss, I would kill for this unit even if it didn't even have a ground mode.
Now you want to buff the ground damage, so that is deals damage pretty well to everything. Vikings already do this, though it may not seem like it, because people hardly ever use them on the ground (since it's air uses are so amazing). It has 12 ground DPS against everything already, which is a bit less than twice that of a stalker (6.9).
The viking is certainly not a unit that needs any more help. Instead you should be focusing on other units that are actually underused. No. Ground mode vikings are bad. And also, their ground weapons cant be upgraded. <<<----- this is wrong, sorry. but it would be better if mech weapons affected their ground attack. edit: ground mode vikings was one of the things that was hit by Blizzard's blanket nerfs at the time when terrans were only doing abusive shit instead of developing solid play styles. The actual argument was that it was too good vs queens I think. This should not apply anymore because Zergs has learned to make many queens and transfuse them when their hp gets in the red. The problem I would say, is that many terran units are very specialized with what they do. Units like the Viking/Banshee/Marauder have such high DPS in their strong area because they are supposed to do one thing really well. The viking ground mode is basically just a little bonus for them, to increase their versatility a bit, like the phoenix's graviton beam. It would be fine to make them more of an all-around unit by making the ground attack more useful, but you would have to nerf their already very strong air-to-air weapon.
No. It is designed as a flying goliath. Goliaths also had very long range vs air units.
The differences are that the viking must fly to attack air and that its ground weapons suck compared to the goliath.
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This would be a good idea. Vikings on the ground suck right now. I think they originally changed viking armor because...of a terrible map pool and trying to balance the game too quickly.
Ever since then vikings on the ground have been bad.
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EPT
