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On September 23 2012 05:01 JustPlay wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 04:55 Cloak wrote:
Corruptors and Phoenixes are really bad against ground too. They also need buffs. Having pros and cons to investment is half the strategy of this game. Investing in Vikings is investing in air superiority, not ground superiority. It would be better to keep it that way. Not to mention that a buff to Vikings is just as much a buff to bio as it is mech. Phoenixes bad vs ground? Phoenixes own vs tanks, are good vs ground in PvP, and are good vs infestors in PvZ. Corruptors can also change in to brood lords, and given how zerg's production works them being bad vs ground is not particularly important. Corruptors being bad vs ground hasn't been relevant since roach/hydra + corruptor vs protoss days.
Ever heard of Fungaling Phoenixes and automatically killing all of them with a couple of Infesteds? Once Infestors are out, Phoenixes are a nonissue.
And the 1 Tank they lift up won't even die before they all disintegrate to the bioball.
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United Kingdom12058 Posts
On September 23 2012 05:04 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 05:01 JustPlay wrote:On September 23 2012 04:55 Cloak wrote:
Corruptors and Phoenixes are really bad against ground too. They also need buffs. Having pros and cons to investment is half the strategy of this game. Investing in Vikings is investing in air superiority, not ground superiority. It would be better to keep it that way. Not to mention that a buff to Vikings is just as much a buff to bio as it is mech. Phoenixes bad vs ground? Phoenixes own vs tanks, are good vs ground in PvP, and are good vs infestors in PvZ. Corruptors can also change in to brood lords, and given how zerg's production works them being bad vs ground is not particularly important. Corruptors being bad vs ground hasn't been relevant since roach/hydra + corruptor vs protoss days. Ever heard of Fungaling Phoenixes and automatically killing all of them with a couple of Infesteds? Once Infestors are out, Phoenixes are a nonissue. And the 1 Tank they lift up won't even die before they all disintegrate to the bioball.
If mech becomes viable, this won't happen. ^^
Also the new Oracle ability helps pheonix's, infact all of airtoss against infestors so hopefully that tests out and gets balanced correctly! Could be an awesome ability.
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I really really like your idea OP.
Making it 7x2 or 6x2 instead of 12 is just an great idea.
Its especially an awesome idea since it should be this way since forever designwise (having 2 machineguns).
I thought it was like this already since it had 2 machineguns and it wouldnt make sense to give it a single attack instead of a dual.
I really really hope Blizz will change this immediately. (maybe also make it lose Armored when in ground mode)
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On September 23 2012 05:10 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 05:04 Cloak wrote:On September 23 2012 05:01 JustPlay wrote:On September 23 2012 04:55 Cloak wrote:
Corruptors and Phoenixes are really bad against ground too. They also need buffs. Having pros and cons to investment is half the strategy of this game. Investing in Vikings is investing in air superiority, not ground superiority. It would be better to keep it that way. Not to mention that a buff to Vikings is just as much a buff to bio as it is mech. Phoenixes bad vs ground? Phoenixes own vs tanks, are good vs ground in PvP, and are good vs infestors in PvZ. Corruptors can also change in to brood lords, and given how zerg's production works them being bad vs ground is not particularly important. Corruptors being bad vs ground hasn't been relevant since roach/hydra + corruptor vs protoss days. Ever heard of Fungaling Phoenixes and automatically killing all of them with a couple of Infesteds? Once Infestors are out, Phoenixes are a nonissue. And the 1 Tank they lift up won't even die before they all disintegrate to the bioball. If mech becomes viable, this won't happen. ^^ Also the new Oracle ability helps pheonix's, infact all of airtoss against infestors so hopefully that tests out and gets balanced correctly! Could be an awesome ability.
True, that's why I'm hoping Mech and Oracle work out. But buffing Vikings seems to be unnecessary, especially since Mech's weakness is supposed to be air.
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On September 23 2012 05:18 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 05:10 Qikz wrote:On September 23 2012 05:04 Cloak wrote:On September 23 2012 05:01 JustPlay wrote:On September 23 2012 04:55 Cloak wrote:
Corruptors and Phoenixes are really bad against ground too. They also need buffs. Having pros and cons to investment is half the strategy of this game. Investing in Vikings is investing in air superiority, not ground superiority. It would be better to keep it that way. Not to mention that a buff to Vikings is just as much a buff to bio as it is mech. Phoenixes bad vs ground? Phoenixes own vs tanks, are good vs ground in PvP, and are good vs infestors in PvZ. Corruptors can also change in to brood lords, and given how zerg's production works them being bad vs ground is not particularly important. Corruptors being bad vs ground hasn't been relevant since roach/hydra + corruptor vs protoss days. Ever heard of Fungaling Phoenixes and automatically killing all of them with a couple of Infesteds? Once Infestors are out, Phoenixes are a nonissue. And the 1 Tank they lift up won't even die before they all disintegrate to the bioball. If mech becomes viable, this won't happen. ^^ Also the new Oracle ability helps pheonix's, infact all of airtoss against infestors so hopefully that tests out and gets balanced correctly! Could be an awesome ability. True, that's why I'm hoping Mech and Oracle work out. But buffing Vikings seems to be unnecessary, especially since Mech's weakness is supposed to be air.
In SC2 its also supposed to be Immortals right now.
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Viking DPS on the ground is already quite high, and being extremely strong AtA I don't think they should be given any buffs to damage or hp. However, I do think they could make the transform animation significantly shorter to make people more willing to use them for harassing as well as enabling pseudo-blink-like micro.
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I would be fine with a ground viking buff if they buffed Graviton Beam from 50 energy to 25 and made corruption a more interesting ability.
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On September 23 2012 01:01 y0su wrote:
better luck just asking for them to be classified as bio while on the ground :D :D :D
Viking drop harass!
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United Kingdom12058 Posts
On September 23 2012 05:35 Tppz! wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 05:18 Cloak wrote:On September 23 2012 05:10 Qikz wrote:On September 23 2012 05:04 Cloak wrote:On September 23 2012 05:01 JustPlay wrote:On September 23 2012 04:55 Cloak wrote:
Corruptors and Phoenixes are really bad against ground too. They also need buffs. Having pros and cons to investment is half the strategy of this game. Investing in Vikings is investing in air superiority, not ground superiority. It would be better to keep it that way. Not to mention that a buff to Vikings is just as much a buff to bio as it is mech. Phoenixes bad vs ground? Phoenixes own vs tanks, are good vs ground in PvP, and are good vs infestors in PvZ. Corruptors can also change in to brood lords, and given how zerg's production works them being bad vs ground is not particularly important. Corruptors being bad vs ground hasn't been relevant since roach/hydra + corruptor vs protoss days. Ever heard of Fungaling Phoenixes and automatically killing all of them with a couple of Infesteds? Once Infestors are out, Phoenixes are a nonissue. And the 1 Tank they lift up won't even die before they all disintegrate to the bioball. If mech becomes viable, this won't happen. ^^ Also the new Oracle ability helps pheonix's, infact all of airtoss against infestors so hopefully that tests out and gets balanced correctly! Could be an awesome ability. True, that's why I'm hoping Mech and Oracle work out. But buffing Vikings seems to be unnecessary, especially since Mech's weakness is supposed to be air. In SC2 its also supposed to be Immortals right now.
Well there's having a weakness, then there's having a unit that travels back in time and kills your mother before you have the chance to be born Terminator style. A bit over the top, but that's how much immortals counter mech in WoL ;p
However, in a perfect world Kyle Rees (the ghost) with his shotgun (EMP) will save the tanks mother and allow John Connor to be born (kill the immortal).
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I've never really liked the viking, now with the battle hellion and the thor it seems like we're playing transformers instead of starcraft. The idea itself is pretty good, because a buff on the viking won't have any effect versus zerg imo.
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^Vikings are fine. Leave them be. They need to have some kind of weakness.
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Ah yes, the eternal miscommunication.
First of all, I´m only randomplayer. So I may not be an expert, but I think I have at least some insight to all races.
1: Vikings are not awesome. They are long ranged and that´s it.
+ Show Spoiler + In 1:1 supply they are roughly equal to Corruptors and Phoenixes. So in real games they have a considerable advantage thanks to their range.
(Equal sup)They win against BC without Yamato and perform even with Yamato. They lose slightly to Carrier.
Each of these units have something besides air ot air that makes them good.
Corruptors are never wasted as long as you have a greater spire. Phoenixes are (arguably) good for harrassing and scouting.
BC and Carrier are much better versus ground than vikings though they are very hard to produce.
All that is awesome about vikings is that they cost 25 less gas than Corruptors and Phoenixes.
2: Grounded Vikings are anecdotally pretty shit.
+ Show Spoiler +They are roughly a marauder without stim & conc shell, 1 less armor, can´t be healed, but 50%/300% more expensive out of a more gasheavy building.
2.5: Grounded Vikings can only fight where they can land.+ Show Spoiler +Another reason why they suck at harass(Main reason is their much, much more valuable and much less effective compared to M&M Drops). Defense buildings damage them before they can land.
During a battle it´s often hard to land vikings in good spots, especially if you have many vikings. Landing them next to enemy units is often suicide.
3. Terran infrastructure costs a fuckton more than other P and Z and produces units slower. THIS is often overlooked. + Show Spoiler +Because of addons, a reactor Rax is worth 200/50, a lab Rax 200/25. Likewise are Factorys and Starports 200/150 or 200/125 depending on addon.
There is no warpin in 5 seconds and there are no stored larva. Instead, addons take *additional* time to be built.
A starport for example takes 50 seconds to build. A reactor takes another 50 seconds. A new reactor starport takes as much time to build as a hatchery(100 seconds).
With the addition of Warpgates, Terran is the only race that cannot instantly build a new army.
So Terran is much, much slower to change their production. Part of the reason why they have trouble in the lategame.
If Vikings were so awesome, Terrans would still build them before Colossus/Broodlords hit the field. It´s been a long time since I´ve seen that.
They are very good in certain situations and obviously against Broodlords and Colossi, but there are also situations were they quite frankly suck.
Considering the huge cost to get them - and by that I also mean the number of starports you had to build - they would still suck versus most ground units if they were buffed.
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The Upgrades aren't even the biggest issue. And the single attack is better against Immortals. (Note: it was 14 damage but got nerfed because their damage output was to strong). You forgot Guardian Shield in your calculation, which makes 12 damage perfect against Immortal shields. And Immortals actually have 200 hull and +1 armor. A reason why small attacks aren't really effective against Immortals, except these units normally taking less damage from the Immortal in return.
That Vikings stack together quiet abit on the ground with a normal speed is something that you can undo with micro. But since the Immortal/Roach range buff, they are actually quiet outmatched in that regard, especially against the Immortal. It is really hard to focus fire Immortals now with them, as they are the mech thing against Immortal shields. That being said they are an low hp armored unit that has to hold of an army of armored killers with superior range.
Hellions tanked quiet good, but their issue was the low hp and AoEs and that they are unable to wear down Immortal shields due to the lack of attack speed. Blizzard buffed these aspects, so the hellion can tank now, but they didn't addressed that there is no unit that can deal with Immortal shields.
They actually had the Viking sitting under their noses, basically being better then the Battle Hellion already, but being useless on the ground with this armored flag. Terran is forced anyway to do atleast tripple upgrades right now, so getting air armor for Vikings on the ground is np.
The Viking could have been such a nice Goliath replacement if it had been non armored on the ground and they actually change flags for the Battle Hellion now, so the Viking change would be no issue.
To prevent TvT from becoming Viking/ Siege tank again. (Vikings would be better marines on the ground if they wouldn't take extra damage) They could change Siege tank damage to 50-15 to light ... or if they don't like having negatives ingame. 35+15 against everything but light. Would only affect Queens and Archons.
So yeah, everything they did with the Battle Hellion, from the flag change to being able to build both units, would have probably made Mech more then viable in WoL against Toss. (Especially since Toss are still holding back on getting Shield upgrades, which makes their army even more durable.)
Battle Hellions are okay though, but they deny chargelots so heavily ... the viking would have been way better Imo and less of a hardconter. But right now you simply mix in Ghosts into Mech and suddenly immortals are no problem anymore. You got Vessels in BW mech, since the Ghost is the new Vessel (Radiation only kills psy units now though instead of everything ...) its still mech !
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On September 23 2012 07:04 Mataza wrote:Ah yes, the eternal miscommunication. First of all, I´m only randomplayer. So I may not be an expert, but I think I have at least some insight to all races. 1: Vikings are not awesome. They are long ranged and that´s it. + Show Spoiler + In 1:1 supply they are roughly equal to Corruptors and Phoenixes. So in real games they have a considerable advantage thanks to their range.
(Equal sup)They win against BC without Yamato and perform even with Yamato. They lose slightly to Carrier.
Each of these units have something besides air ot air that makes them good.
Corruptors are never wasted as long as you have a greater spire. Phoenixes are (arguably) good for harrassing and scouting.
BC and Carrier are much better versus ground than vikings though they are very hard to produce.
All that is awesome about vikings is that they cost 25 less gas than Corruptors and Phoenixes. 2: Grounded Vikings are anecdotally pretty shit. + Show Spoiler +They are roughly a marauder without stim & conc shell, 1 less armor, can´t be healed, but 50%/300% more expensive out of a more gasheavy building. 2.5: Grounded Vikings can only fight where they can land. + Show Spoiler +Another reason why they suck at harass(Main reason is their much, much more valuable and much less effective compared to M&M Drops). Defense buildings damage them before they can land.
During a battle it´s often hard to land vikings in good spots, especially if you have many vikings. Landing them next to enemy units is often suicide. 3. Terran infrastructure costs a fuckton more than other P and Z and produces units slower. THIS is often overlooked. + Show Spoiler +Because of addons, a reactor Rax is worth 200/50, a lab Rax 200/25. Likewise are Factorys and Starports 200/150 or 200/125 depending on addon.
There is no warpin in 5 seconds and there are no stored larva. Instead, addons take *additional* time to be built.
A starport for example takes 50 seconds to build. A reactor takes another 50 seconds. A new reactor starport takes as much time to build as a hatchery(100 seconds).
With the addition of Warpgates, Terran is the only race that cannot instantly build a new army.
So Terran is much, much slower to change their production. Part of the reason why they have trouble in the lategame.
If Vikings were so awesome, Terrans would still build them before Colossus/Broodlords hit the field. It´s been a long time since I´ve seen that. They are very good in certain situations and obviously against Broodlords and Colossi, but there are also situations were they quite frankly suck. Considering the huge cost to get them - and by that I also mean the number of starports you had to build - they would still suck versus most ground units if they were buffed.
And if Protoss wants to make air units too, they have to pay a hefty 150/150 without the benefit of a Reactor.
You don't want to overmake Vikings not because they suck at what they do, but because they're good for air dominance. If the Terran isn't going air, or the opponent isn't going air, then yea they won't be optimal. Terrans premake Vikings all the time in TvT to maintain air dominance throughout the game.
Vikings already see use in every single matchup almost all the time. They're the least deserving unit for buffs.
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On September 23 2012 07:04 Mataza wrote:
If Vikings were so awesome, Terrans would still build them before Colossus/Broodlords hit the field. It´s been a long time since I´ve seen that.
They are very good in certain situations and obviously against Broodlords and Colossi, but there are also situations were they quite frankly suck.
A Terran player always has to build Vikings. ALWAYS. If you have no insurance against Broods or Colossi, you're going to lose the game. Whether you're going bio or mech, you NEED Viking support. They're also the only AtA unit that Terran has, besides their capital ship (LOL).
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On September 23 2012 07:14 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 07:04 Mataza wrote:Ah yes, the eternal miscommunication. First of all, I´m only randomplayer. So I may not be an expert, but I think I have at least some insight to all races. 1: Vikings are not awesome. They are long ranged and that´s it. + Show Spoiler + In 1:1 supply they are roughly equal to Corruptors and Phoenixes. So in real games they have a considerable advantage thanks to their range.
(Equal sup)They win against BC without Yamato and perform even with Yamato. They lose slightly to Carrier.
Each of these units have something besides air ot air that makes them good.
Corruptors are never wasted as long as you have a greater spire. Phoenixes are (arguably) good for harrassing and scouting.
BC and Carrier are much better versus ground than vikings though they are very hard to produce.
All that is awesome about vikings is that they cost 25 less gas than Corruptors and Phoenixes. 2: Grounded Vikings are anecdotally pretty shit. + Show Spoiler +They are roughly a marauder without stim & conc shell, 1 less armor, can´t be healed, but 50%/300% more expensive out of a more gasheavy building. 2.5: Grounded Vikings can only fight where they can land. + Show Spoiler +Another reason why they suck at harass(Main reason is their much, much more valuable and much less effective compared to M&M Drops). Defense buildings damage them before they can land.
During a battle it´s often hard to land vikings in good spots, especially if you have many vikings. Landing them next to enemy units is often suicide. 3. Terran infrastructure costs a fuckton more than other P and Z and produces units slower. THIS is often overlooked. + Show Spoiler +Because of addons, a reactor Rax is worth 200/50, a lab Rax 200/25. Likewise are Factorys and Starports 200/150 or 200/125 depending on addon.
There is no warpin in 5 seconds and there are no stored larva. Instead, addons take *additional* time to be built.
A starport for example takes 50 seconds to build. A reactor takes another 50 seconds. A new reactor starport takes as much time to build as a hatchery(100 seconds).
With the addition of Warpgates, Terran is the only race that cannot instantly build a new army.
So Terran is much, much slower to change their production. Part of the reason why they have trouble in the lategame.
If Vikings were so awesome, Terrans would still build them before Colossus/Broodlords hit the field. It´s been a long time since I´ve seen that. They are very good in certain situations and obviously against Broodlords and Colossi, but there are also situations were they quite frankly suck. Considering the huge cost to get them - and by that I also mean the number of starports you had to build - they would still suck versus most ground units if they were buffed. And if Protoss wants to make air units too, they have to pay a hefty 150/150 without the benefit of a Reactor. You don't want to overmake Vikings not because they suck at what they do, but because they're good for air dominance. If the Terran isn't going air, or the opponent isn't going air, then yea they won't be optimal. Terrans premake Vikings all the time in TvT to maintain air dominance throughout the game. Vikings already see use in every single matchup almost all the time. They're the least deserving unit for buffs.
Yes, and Phoenixes with chrono take only 24 seconds to come out. That´s 2 in 48 seconds, while a reactor makes 2 Vikings in 42. Moot point.
My point is, many claims in this thread are overblown. Terrans premake Vikings to save Starports *because* you need to wait 50-100 seconds to increase your production.
And I never said they´re not used. In TvT airdominance is the current metagame, because 1. Tanks beat tanks if you have air units for vision and 2. the lategame is a transition to air units, be it Raven, Banshee or Battlecruiser.
In other MUs they are used to counter the strong long range anti ground units(BL, Colo).
Again, my point is that the Viking is pretty decent, but has no real use outside of being anti air. Also I hate it when people don´t get their facts straight.
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On September 23 2012 07:31 Mataza wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 07:14 Cloak wrote:On September 23 2012 07:04 Mataza wrote:Ah yes, the eternal miscommunication. First of all, I´m only randomplayer. So I may not be an expert, but I think I have at least some insight to all races. 1: Vikings are not awesome. They are long ranged and that´s it. + Show Spoiler + In 1:1 supply they are roughly equal to Corruptors and Phoenixes. So in real games they have a considerable advantage thanks to their range.
(Equal sup)They win against BC without Yamato and perform even with Yamato. They lose slightly to Carrier.
Each of these units have something besides air ot air that makes them good.
Corruptors are never wasted as long as you have a greater spire. Phoenixes are (arguably) good for harrassing and scouting.
BC and Carrier are much better versus ground than vikings though they are very hard to produce.
All that is awesome about vikings is that they cost 25 less gas than Corruptors and Phoenixes. 2: Grounded Vikings are anecdotally pretty shit. + Show Spoiler +They are roughly a marauder without stim & conc shell, 1 less armor, can´t be healed, but 50%/300% more expensive out of a more gasheavy building. 2.5: Grounded Vikings can only fight where they can land. + Show Spoiler +Another reason why they suck at harass(Main reason is their much, much more valuable and much less effective compared to M&M Drops). Defense buildings damage them before they can land.
During a battle it´s often hard to land vikings in good spots, especially if you have many vikings. Landing them next to enemy units is often suicide. 3. Terran infrastructure costs a fuckton more than other P and Z and produces units slower. THIS is often overlooked. + Show Spoiler +Because of addons, a reactor Rax is worth 200/50, a lab Rax 200/25. Likewise are Factorys and Starports 200/150 or 200/125 depending on addon.
There is no warpin in 5 seconds and there are no stored larva. Instead, addons take *additional* time to be built.
A starport for example takes 50 seconds to build. A reactor takes another 50 seconds. A new reactor starport takes as much time to build as a hatchery(100 seconds).
With the addition of Warpgates, Terran is the only race that cannot instantly build a new army.
So Terran is much, much slower to change their production. Part of the reason why they have trouble in the lategame.
If Vikings were so awesome, Terrans would still build them before Colossus/Broodlords hit the field. It´s been a long time since I´ve seen that. They are very good in certain situations and obviously against Broodlords and Colossi, but there are also situations were they quite frankly suck. Considering the huge cost to get them - and by that I also mean the number of starports you had to build - they would still suck versus most ground units if they were buffed. And if Protoss wants to make air units too, they have to pay a hefty 150/150 without the benefit of a Reactor. You don't want to overmake Vikings not because they suck at what they do, but because they're good for air dominance. If the Terran isn't going air, or the opponent isn't going air, then yea they won't be optimal. Terrans premake Vikings all the time in TvT to maintain air dominance throughout the game. Vikings already see use in every single matchup almost all the time. They're the least deserving unit for buffs. Yes, and Phoenixes with chrono take only 24 seconds to come out. That´s 2 in 48 seconds, while a reactor makes 2 Vikings in 42. Moot point.
It's not a moot point at all. Reactor is 100% uptime with a 100% production boost. Chronoboost is a 50% boost that is not consistent at all. You can't justify buffs for reasons that are untrue. Vikings are readily produceable and have always been.
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I think that since vikings are neccesary when using bio or mech, theyll never share mech upgrades.
In niche situations, vikings land in games and it makes all the difference but if you do it wrong they die and you suck. I dont think buffing the viking on ground would buff mech, it would buff terran. And i dont think they need it.
Thanks
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On September 23 2012 07:35 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 07:31 Mataza wrote:On September 23 2012 07:14 Cloak wrote:On September 23 2012 07:04 Mataza wrote:Ah yes, the eternal miscommunication. First of all, I´m only randomplayer. So I may not be an expert, but I think I have at least some insight to all races. 1: Vikings are not awesome. They are long ranged and that´s it. + Show Spoiler + In 1:1 supply they are roughly equal to Corruptors and Phoenixes. So in real games they have a considerable advantage thanks to their range.
(Equal sup)They win against BC without Yamato and perform even with Yamato. They lose slightly to Carrier.
Each of these units have something besides air ot air that makes them good.
Corruptors are never wasted as long as you have a greater spire. Phoenixes are (arguably) good for harrassing and scouting.
BC and Carrier are much better versus ground than vikings though they are very hard to produce.
All that is awesome about vikings is that they cost 25 less gas than Corruptors and Phoenixes. 2: Grounded Vikings are anecdotally pretty shit. + Show Spoiler +They are roughly a marauder without stim & conc shell, 1 less armor, can´t be healed, but 50%/300% more expensive out of a more gasheavy building. 2.5: Grounded Vikings can only fight where they can land. + Show Spoiler +Another reason why they suck at harass(Main reason is their much, much more valuable and much less effective compared to M&M Drops). Defense buildings damage them before they can land.
During a battle it´s often hard to land vikings in good spots, especially if you have many vikings. Landing them next to enemy units is often suicide. 3. Terran infrastructure costs a fuckton more than other P and Z and produces units slower. THIS is often overlooked. + Show Spoiler +Because of addons, a reactor Rax is worth 200/50, a lab Rax 200/25. Likewise are Factorys and Starports 200/150 or 200/125 depending on addon.
There is no warpin in 5 seconds and there are no stored larva. Instead, addons take *additional* time to be built.
A starport for example takes 50 seconds to build. A reactor takes another 50 seconds. A new reactor starport takes as much time to build as a hatchery(100 seconds).
With the addition of Warpgates, Terran is the only race that cannot instantly build a new army.
So Terran is much, much slower to change their production. Part of the reason why they have trouble in the lategame.
If Vikings were so awesome, Terrans would still build them before Colossus/Broodlords hit the field. It´s been a long time since I´ve seen that. They are very good in certain situations and obviously against Broodlords and Colossi, but there are also situations were they quite frankly suck. Considering the huge cost to get them - and by that I also mean the number of starports you had to build - they would still suck versus most ground units if they were buffed. And if Protoss wants to make air units too, they have to pay a hefty 150/150 without the benefit of a Reactor. You don't want to overmake Vikings not because they suck at what they do, but because they're good for air dominance. If the Terran isn't going air, or the opponent isn't going air, then yea they won't be optimal. Terrans premake Vikings all the time in TvT to maintain air dominance throughout the game. Vikings already see use in every single matchup almost all the time. They're the least deserving unit for buffs. Yes, and Phoenixes with chrono take only 24 seconds to come out. That´s 2 in 48 seconds, while a reactor makes 2 Vikings in 42. Moot point. It's not a moot point at all. Reactor is 100% uptime with a 100% production boost. Chronoboost is a 50% boost that is not consistent at all. You can't justify buffs for reasons that are untrue. Vikings are readily produceable and have always been.
Because Phoenixes are considered essential.
Because Stargates are more expensive and slower to build than reactor Starports.
Sorry you lost me there. Without Chronoboost you still build 2 Phoenixes in 70 seconds. You may not have 100% uptime with chronoboost, but the infrastructure is still a lot more costly. 150/150/60 seconds vs. 200/150/100 seconds.
With Chronoboost you almost produce at the same speed.
Also don´t forget that addons are obligatory. Terran is balanced around having an addon on every building.
I don´t see why we are arguing about this.
Yes, Stargate is a lot less viable than Starport. On the other hand terran has only Vikings and Marines as anti air. Nothing is without a tradeoff, so please don´t act like Vikings have some insane advantage except their range.
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EPT
