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On September 23 2012 02:26 avilo wrote:
This would be a good idea. Vikings on the ground suck right now. I think they originally changed viking armor because...of a terrible map pool and trying to balance the game too quickly.
Ever since then vikings on the ground have been bad.
its a superstrong antiair. why should it have a strong ground attack also? i mean srsly wtf? the corruptor has NO ground attack at all. ground attack to vikings is just a bonus so they are superfine and wont be changed!
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On September 23 2012 02:21 Decendos wrote:
vikings are more than fine. they are superstrong antiair and as a bonus get a ground option. a buff is totally unneeded. ground attack is just for really rare occasions like harrassment on unprotected bases or as a emergency buffer for your ground army. viking ground is not supposed to be part of your standard ground army...
The problem is that they are obviously a modified Goliath. The ground mode is little more than a gimmick in its current state.
With better vs ground attack it could be used vs archons and immortal shields as a part of a standard ground army - just like the Goliath was.
This got me thinking though ... I am so gonna make a troll build where I push off two bases with battle hellions , thors and landed vikings. The transformers push!
I'll probably push with a lot of repairing scvs and two medivacs to heal the battle hellions and the repairing scv and so that I also can do epic dropship micro.
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On September 23 2012 02:30 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 02:21 Decendos wrote:
vikings are more than fine. they are superstrong antiair and as a bonus get a ground option. a buff is totally unneeded. ground attack is just for really rare occasions like harrassment on unprotected bases or as a emergency buffer for your ground army. viking ground is not supposed to be part of your standard ground army... The problem is that they are obviously a modified Goliath. The ground mode is little more than a gimmick in its current state. With better vs ground attack it could be used vs archons and immortal shields as a part of a standard ground army - just like the Goliath was. This got me thinking though ... I am so gonna make a troll build where I push off two bases with battle hellions , thors and landed vikings. The transformers push!
it is not a goliath?? the fact that vikings can fly everywhere makes them SO MUCH better in harrassing then goliaths. so making their ground attack strong would make them way too strong. they are already the best air to air unit in the game. there is supposed to be tradeoffs with units. a unit that can fly and has a strong air and ground attack and costs only 2 supply is just way too strong.
i know there is lot of thinking and discussing HOTS right now but lets focus on the real important things that make the game better like nerfing marines/buffing tanks or nerfing warpgate/buffing gateways or things like rework fungal, collosus and FF.
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On September 23 2012 02:35 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 02:30 one-one-one wrote:On September 23 2012 02:21 Decendos wrote:
vikings are more than fine. they are superstrong antiair and as a bonus get a ground option. a buff is totally unneeded. ground attack is just for really rare occasions like harrassment on unprotected bases or as a emergency buffer for your ground army. viking ground is not supposed to be part of your standard ground army... The problem is that they are obviously a modified Goliath. The ground mode is little more than a gimmick in its current state. With better vs ground attack it could be used vs archons and immortal shields as a part of a standard ground army - just like the Goliath was. This got me thinking though ... I am so gonna make a troll build where I push off two bases with battle hellions , thors and landed vikings. The transformers push! it is not a goliath?? the fact that vikings can fly everywhere makes them SO MUCH better in harrassing then goliaths. so making their ground attack strong would make them way too strong. they are already the best air to air unit in the game. there is supposed to be tradeoffs with units. a unit that can fly and has a strong air and ground attack and costs only 2 supply is just way too strong. i know there is lot of thinking and discussing HOTS right now but lets focus on the real important things that make the game better like nerfing marines/buffing tanks or nerfing warpgate/buffing gateways or things like rework fungal, collosus and FF.
No, carriers and corruptors are better anti air units. Also battlecruisers.
How often do you see viking harass these days? The only time it works is when a normal drop would have done an equally good job. Spines ,turrets , queens and cannons can shut down viking harass pretty easy.
Very little would have to change to make the vikings better vs ground. Maybe they don't even need a damage buff.
If they did 10 damage with a higher rate of fire they would not trigger immortal hardened shields and be more effective with their DPS in this case. Together with better vs ground range it could be a very good unit.
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On September 23 2012 02:26 avilo wrote:
This would be a good idea. Vikings on the ground suck right now. I think they originally changed viking armor because...of a terrible map pool and trying to balance the game too quickly.
Ever since then vikings on the ground have been bad.
^^
Vikings are basically goliaths but instead of being ground based with AOE AA, they are air based with decent damage vs certain units. But on the ground... they are worse than what the goliath used to be even though they cost more money and require (technically) more tech as you cant make them from the factory.
What if there was a way to make landed vikings from a factory that cant fly until a starport is made. Once a starport is made, you can then choose weather you want to make a battle mode viking from the factory or an AA viking from starport. I think that would be legit along with slight damage and armor buff.
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On September 23 2012 02:35 Decendos wrote:
it is not a goliath?? the fact that vikings can fly everywhere makes them SO MUCH better in harrassing then goliaths.
Both Goliaths and Vikings are pretty terrible at harassing, so that point is moot.
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Vikings are useless supply. They are only good at killing capital ships, colossi, and broodlords. It is the best feeling in the world as a zerg to see a terran land his vikings, because you know you have won the game at that point. Even if vikings had air armor and weapons in the air and land on the ground it would make a huge difference.
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On September 23 2012 02:26 avilo wrote:
This would be a good idea. Vikings on the ground suck right now. I think they originally changed viking armor because...of a terrible map pool and trying to balance the game too quickly.
Ever since then vikings on the ground have been bad.
agreed.
Vikings were just one of the many units that got nerfed prematurely to help compensate for a map pool that included Jungle Basin, Steppes of War, Kulas Ravine, Delta Quadrant, Desert Oasis, and Xel'Naga Caverns.
Were today's map pool in Season 1, Vikings would never have been nerfed like they were. Its long past time they had their armor and damage in Ground Mode restored.
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On September 23 2012 02:21 LgNKami wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 02:05 Piousflea wrote:
Mech and Air upgrades are separate for a reason. If an endgame Terran could switch between a tank based army and a Battlecruiser based army and have 3/3 upgrades "for free" it would just be ridiculous.
Vikings deserve to benefit from mech upgrades because their role is VERY similar to the Goliath from scBW. It is a weak anti-ground unit and a strong anti-air unit with very long range. Against any serious air army, Thors don't cut it, you need Vikes to defend your tanks from air. (just like Goliaths) Compared to the Golie it is more expensive and fragile mainly because of the advantage in mobility. (Vikings can chase down BLs and BCs/Carriers no matter where they retreat, Goliaths can't) LOL, you said "switch" between a tank based army to a BC based army. Do you know how long it takes to "switch" to a BC army? BC's take like a full in game minute to build. If they can make it further than the middle of the map, they will never make it back home if whoever you're playing has some sense.
They take 90s. Of course, carriers take 120s. You know, with a bunch of star ports, you only need a few minutes to mix a bunch of BCs into your army... 4 star ports... 8 BCs in 3 minutes... Just do a drop to blow enough supply for 4 BCs, and start them building. 90s later, do another drop and repeat...
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On September 23 2012 02:46 LgNKami wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 02:26 avilo wrote:
This would be a good idea. Vikings on the ground suck right now. I think they originally changed viking armor because...of a terrible map pool and trying to balance the game too quickly.
Ever since then vikings on the ground have been bad. ^^ Vikings are basically goliaths but instead of being ground based with AOE AA, they are air based with decent damage vs certain units. But on the ground... they are worse than what the goliath used to be even though they cost more money and require (technically) more tech as you cant make them from the factory. What if there was a way to make landed vikings from a factory that cant fly until a starport is made. Once a starport is made, you can then choose weather you want to make a battle mode viking from the factory or an AA viking from starport. I think that would be legit along with slight damage and armor buff.
Goliaths didn't have AoE.
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On September 23 2012 02:41 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 02:35 Decendos wrote:On September 23 2012 02:30 one-one-one wrote:On September 23 2012 02:21 Decendos wrote:
vikings are more than fine. they are superstrong antiair and as a bonus get a ground option. a buff is totally unneeded. ground attack is just for really rare occasions like harrassment on unprotected bases or as a emergency buffer for your ground army. viking ground is not supposed to be part of your standard ground army... The problem is that they are obviously a modified Goliath. The ground mode is little more than a gimmick in its current state. With better vs ground attack it could be used vs archons and immortal shields as a part of a standard ground army - just like the Goliath was. This got me thinking though ... I am so gonna make a troll build where I push off two bases with battle hellions , thors and landed vikings. The transformers push! it is not a goliath?? the fact that vikings can fly everywhere makes them SO MUCH better in harrassing then goliaths. so making their ground attack strong would make them way too strong. they are already the best air to air unit in the game. there is supposed to be tradeoffs with units. a unit that can fly and has a strong air and ground attack and costs only 2 supply is just way too strong. i know there is lot of thinking and discussing HOTS right now but lets focus on the real important things that make the game better like nerfing marines/buffing tanks or nerfing warpgate/buffing gateways or things like rework fungal, collosus and FF. No, carriers and corruptors are better anti air units. Also battlecruisers.How often do you see viking harass these days? The only time it works is when a normal drop would have done an equally good job. Spines ,turrets , queens and cannons can shut down viking harass pretty easy. Very little would have to change to make the vikings better vs ground. Maybe they don't even need a damage buff. If they did 10 damage with a higher rate of fire they would not trigger immortal hardened shields and be more effective with their DPS in this case. Together with better vs ground range it could be a very good unit.
That explains why we see people making battlecruisers and carriers more frequently than vikings. *trollface*
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On September 23 2012 02:47 mannerless wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 02:35 Decendos wrote:
it is not a goliath?? the fact that vikings can fly everywhere makes them SO MUCH better in harrassing then goliaths. Both Goliaths and Vikings are pretty terrible at harassing, so that point is moot.
if you would buff ground attack (which is the point of this thread) they would be strong for harrass...a lot stronger than goliaths since they could savely fly and then harrass.
vikings are fine. enough said.
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I think it's a bit annoying to have leftover vikings or corruptors after colossi are dead, it's nice if you can use those units for different purposes. Corruptors can be used for morphing to brood lords, but vikings lack a bit of purpose for harassment and such. I view them a bit like overlords: you have them already, so why not design them so you can do some cool stuff with them. Buffing ground damage is a simple solution to that. They used to have +2 ground damage, but Blizzard changed that because tank/viking was dominant in TvT iirc.
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Clearly, nobody remembers WoL beta. *shudders*
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map pool ruined what potential sc2 coulda had
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On September 23 2012 02:51 trbot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 02:41 one-one-one wrote:On September 23 2012 02:35 Decendos wrote:On September 23 2012 02:30 one-one-one wrote:On September 23 2012 02:21 Decendos wrote:
vikings are more than fine. they are superstrong antiair and as a bonus get a ground option. a buff is totally unneeded. ground attack is just for really rare occasions like harrassment on unprotected bases or as a emergency buffer for your ground army. viking ground is not supposed to be part of your standard ground army... The problem is that they are obviously a modified Goliath. The ground mode is little more than a gimmick in its current state. With better vs ground attack it could be used vs archons and immortal shields as a part of a standard ground army - just like the Goliath was. This got me thinking though ... I am so gonna make a troll build where I push off two bases with battle hellions , thors and landed vikings. The transformers push! it is not a goliath?? the fact that vikings can fly everywhere makes them SO MUCH better in harrassing then goliaths. so making their ground attack strong would make them way too strong. they are already the best air to air unit in the game. there is supposed to be tradeoffs with units. a unit that can fly and has a strong air and ground attack and costs only 2 supply is just way too strong. i know there is lot of thinking and discussing HOTS right now but lets focus on the real important things that make the game better like nerfing marines/buffing tanks or nerfing warpgate/buffing gateways or things like rework fungal, collosus and FF. No, carriers and corruptors are better anti air units. Also battlecruisers.How often do you see viking harass these days? The only time it works is when a normal drop would have done an equally good job. Spines ,turrets , queens and cannons can shut down viking harass pretty easy. Very little would have to change to make the vikings better vs ground. Maybe they don't even need a damage buff. If they did 10 damage with a higher rate of fire they would not trigger immortal hardened shields and be more effective with their DPS in this case. Together with better vs ground range it could be a very good unit. That explains why we see people making battlecruisers and carriers more frequently than vikings. *trollface*
And your argument is ... ?
It is not about frequency, lol.
You (intentionally?) left out the corruptor in your "argument".
Zergs make a lot of corruptors despite terran having vikings. As long as there are infestors and brood lords out the corruptors are really good.
Battlecruisers are made in TvT... In most TvTs that go to lategame you will see BCs.
In TvP the carrier is really fucking scary if terran goes mech.
The viking has good range and good single target damage vs armored air units. That is pretty much it.
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On September 23 2012 03:00 Grumbels wrote:
I think it's a bit annoying to have leftover vikings or corruptors after colossi are dead, it's nice if you can use those units for different purposes. Corruptors can be used for morphing to brood lords, but vikings lack a bit of purpose for harassment and such. I view them a bit like overlords: you have them already, so why not design them so you can do some cool stuff with them. Buffing ground damage is a simple solution to that. They used to have +2 ground damage, but Blizzard changed that because tank/viking was dominant in TvT iirc.
Viking tank was never dominant in the sense some people are thinking.
Remember...steppes of war, desert oasis, *crap station, delta quadrant, lost temple, kulas ravine...lots of terrible maps. Also, no one knew how to play bio back then properly with transitions to air/nukes/tanks themselves...also tanks did way more damage back then before david kim decided he hated them.
So no, tank/viking as a strategy itself was not mega strong, it was mostly popular because of the map pool and people's lack of understanding of the game at that time, as well as tanks being stronger so you did not need as much hellion support to buffer against bio/other tanks.
Which is why it's also worrying that blizzard is currently tweaking HOTS balance based off of what a lot of people would argue are not well designed maps.
You can't do entire balance tweaks to a game on a terrible map pool, otherwise you end up with an entirely different balance on well designed maps.
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Vikings are already ridiculously good on the ground. I remember in the olden days I used to go mass blink stalker to try and win the vs ground army, cuz every terran would go mass viking to beat colossus, and even after I beat the ground army, as soon as he landed the vikings I'd die. Because, as I learned, viking >> Stalker.
So you already have a unit that's better for air superiority, and better as a ground army than a stalker. Flying has better mobility than blink. They are only slightly worse than corruptors for air battles, but then once you win air superiority, you can land, and then they're like free marines?
They are so good, only issue is, they're not a tanky unit. (but then, what is? The only unit in SC2 I'd even suggest is 'tanky' is a roach) So no, if you land them in front of your tanks to try and soak up damage it's not going to work very well (But they do fare very well against splash). But if you buff their health you'd better lower their DPS proportionally. They sure don't need easier damage upgrades.
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On September 23 2012 03:02 FinestHour wrote:
map pool ruined what potential sc2 coulda had
I don't know if it "ruined" it, but it had a very big, negative effect no doubt.
I remember TLO doing some reactor Viking opening in TvZ. Now, back then it looked imba, but was it also because players were just hands down terrible at the game along with the map pool? We will never know.
On topic, there is not a reason in the world why Vikings do not benefit from ground upgrades while in ground mode. In late game they are 0/0 ground units meant to offer support against 3/3 units...it's just stupid design...you are better of flying them away in case you'll need them later.
They would help mech if they benefited from ground upgrades, so it will most likely never happen.
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On September 23 2012 03:11 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 03:00 Grumbels wrote:
I think it's a bit annoying to have leftover vikings or corruptors after colossi are dead, it's nice if you can use those units for different purposes. Corruptors can be used for morphing to brood lords, but vikings lack a bit of purpose for harassment and such. I view them a bit like overlords: you have them already, so why not design them so you can do some cool stuff with them. Buffing ground damage is a simple solution to that. They used to have +2 ground damage, but Blizzard changed that because tank/viking was dominant in TvT iirc. Viking tank was never dominant in the sense some people are thinking. Remember...steppes of war, desert oasis, *crap station, delta quadrant, lost temple, kulas ravine...lots of terrible maps. Also, no one knew how to play bio back then properly with transitions to air/nukes/tanks themselves...also tanks did way more damage back then before david kim decided he hated them. So no, tank/viking as a strategy itself was not mega strong, it was mostly popular because of the map pool and people's lack of understanding of the game at that time, as well as tanks being stronger so you did not need as much hellion support to buffer against bio/other tanks. Which is why it's also worrying that blizzard is currently tweaking HOTS balance based off of what a lot of people would argue are not well designed maps. You can't do entire balance tweaks to a game on a terrible map pool, otherwise you end up with an entirely different balance on well designed maps.
First: Vikings are arguably the best air-to-air in the game, possessing excellent mobility, superb range, and great damage. If they never had a ground mode in the first place, Terran would still be balanced. Ground mode is a situational ability that allows you to get even more use out of an already superb unit. The only air-to-air that can even compare is the Corruptor, which lacks the lethal range and ground attack of the Viking.
Second: if you'd been paying attention, Blizzard has a PhD statistician who has been running tests on those maps and has found that player skill is infinitely more important than map balance in terms of determining wins. Maybe you should stop reading Destiny's blogs all the time.
To summarize: the maps aren't an issue as much as the players are in HotS. Vikings are already fantastic units, and asking for a better ground form is like asking for icing on your cake. Terran already has one unit that's great against anything (Marine), it hardly needs more.
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EPT
