|
On September 23 2012 08:00 Mataza wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 07:35 Cloak wrote:On September 23 2012 07:31 Mataza wrote:On September 23 2012 07:14 Cloak wrote:On September 23 2012 07:04 Mataza wrote:Ah yes, the eternal miscommunication. First of all, I´m only randomplayer. So I may not be an expert, but I think I have at least some insight to all races. 1: Vikings are not awesome. They are long ranged and that´s it. + Show Spoiler + In 1:1 supply they are roughly equal to Corruptors and Phoenixes. So in real games they have a considerable advantage thanks to their range.
(Equal sup)They win against BC without Yamato and perform even with Yamato. They lose slightly to Carrier.
Each of these units have something besides air ot air that makes them good.
Corruptors are never wasted as long as you have a greater spire. Phoenixes are (arguably) good for harrassing and scouting.
BC and Carrier are much better versus ground than vikings though they are very hard to produce.
All that is awesome about vikings is that they cost 25 less gas than Corruptors and Phoenixes. 2: Grounded Vikings are anecdotally pretty shit. + Show Spoiler +They are roughly a marauder without stim & conc shell, 1 less armor, can´t be healed, but 50%/300% more expensive out of a more gasheavy building. 2.5: Grounded Vikings can only fight where they can land. + Show Spoiler +Another reason why they suck at harass(Main reason is their much, much more valuable and much less effective compared to M&M Drops). Defense buildings damage them before they can land.
During a battle it´s often hard to land vikings in good spots, especially if you have many vikings. Landing them next to enemy units is often suicide. 3. Terran infrastructure costs a fuckton more than other P and Z and produces units slower. THIS is often overlooked. + Show Spoiler +Because of addons, a reactor Rax is worth 200/50, a lab Rax 200/25. Likewise are Factorys and Starports 200/150 or 200/125 depending on addon.
There is no warpin in 5 seconds and there are no stored larva. Instead, addons take *additional* time to be built.
A starport for example takes 50 seconds to build. A reactor takes another 50 seconds. A new reactor starport takes as much time to build as a hatchery(100 seconds).
With the addition of Warpgates, Terran is the only race that cannot instantly build a new army.
So Terran is much, much slower to change their production. Part of the reason why they have trouble in the lategame.
If Vikings were so awesome, Terrans would still build them before Colossus/Broodlords hit the field. It´s been a long time since I´ve seen that. They are very good in certain situations and obviously against Broodlords and Colossi, but there are also situations were they quite frankly suck. Considering the huge cost to get them - and by that I also mean the number of starports you had to build - they would still suck versus most ground units if they were buffed. And if Protoss wants to make air units too, they have to pay a hefty 150/150 without the benefit of a Reactor. You don't want to overmake Vikings not because they suck at what they do, but because they're good for air dominance. If the Terran isn't going air, or the opponent isn't going air, then yea they won't be optimal. Terrans premake Vikings all the time in TvT to maintain air dominance throughout the game. Vikings already see use in every single matchup almost all the time. They're the least deserving unit for buffs. Yes, and Phoenixes with chrono take only 24 seconds to come out. That´s 2 in 48 seconds, while a reactor makes 2 Vikings in 42. Moot point. It's not a moot point at all. Reactor is 100% uptime with a 100% production boost. Chronoboost is a 50% boost that is not consistent at all. You can't justify buffs for reasons that are untrue. Vikings are readily produceable and have always been. Because Phoenixes are considered essential.Because Stargates are more expensive and slower to build than reactor Starports.Sorry you lost me there. Without Chronoboost you still build 2 Phoenixes in 70 seconds. You may not have 100% uptime with chronoboost, but the infrastructure is still a lot more costly. 150/150/60 seconds vs. 200/150/100 seconds. With Chronoboost you almost produce at the same speed. Also don´t forget that addons are obligatory. Terran is balanced around having an addon on every building. I don´t see why we are arguing about this. Yes, Stargate is a lot less viable than Starport. On the other hand terran has only Vikings and Marines as anti air. Nothing is without a tradeoff, so please don´t act like Vikings have some insane advantage except their range.
Marines and Vikings are arguably the best anti-air in the game though. Terran infrastructure isn't really that much more expensive than Protoss stuff. Robo is roughly the same as Factory. Stargate is roughly the same as Starport. And Gateway is roughly the same as Barracks. Gateway has more units come out of it, but in exchange, less useful units come out of their other buildings.
Protoss is balanced around everything being Chronoboosted. Same issue as being balanced around Reactor and Larva Inject. Vikings don't have an insane advantage, but they don't need buffs. I want Mech to work, but buffing Vikings is not the answer. Bio is fine. That's why I'm arguing this. To argue that Vikings need to be better at ground is like arguing Colossus needs to be better at air. Neither unit needs anything right now if not nerfs.
|
How about removing that armoured attribute and instead make it light?
It will take far less damage vs immortals/tanks/stalkers/fungal etc + longer viking wars where micro counts + thors can repell vikings so much easier resulting in some more incentives of not massing vikings yourselves.
|
On September 23 2012 08:09 YyapSsap wrote:
How about removing that armoured attribute and instead make it light?
It will take far less damage vs immortals/tanks/stalkers/fungal etc + longer viking wars where micro counts + thors can repell vikings so much easier resulting in some more incentives of not massing vikings yourselves.
They'll get absolutely crushed by Phoenixes
|
On September 23 2012 08:15 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 08:09 YyapSsap wrote:
How about removing that armoured attribute and instead make it light?
It will take far less damage vs immortals/tanks/stalkers/fungal etc + longer viking wars where micro counts + thors can repell vikings so much easier resulting in some more incentives of not massing vikings yourselves. They'll get absolutely crushed by Phoenixes
But who goes phenixes in TvP? maybe it gives the P incentives to get stargate tech? Maybe its a good thing.
|
On September 23 2012 08:24 YyapSsap wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 08:15 SarcasmMonster wrote:On September 23 2012 08:09 YyapSsap wrote:
How about removing that armoured attribute and instead make it light?
It will take far less damage vs immortals/tanks/stalkers/fungal etc + longer viking wars where micro counts + thors can repell vikings so much easier resulting in some more incentives of not massing vikings yourselves. They'll get absolutely crushed by Phoenixes But who goes phenixes in TvP? maybe it gives the P incentives to get stargate tech? Maybe its a good thing.
People would get phoenixes if they were light though. A few of them could obliterate vikings, giving the colossi free reign.
|
On September 23 2012 08:28 iglocska wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 08:24 YyapSsap wrote:On September 23 2012 08:15 SarcasmMonster wrote:On September 23 2012 08:09 YyapSsap wrote:
How about removing that armoured attribute and instead make it light?
It will take far less damage vs immortals/tanks/stalkers/fungal etc + longer viking wars where micro counts + thors can repell vikings so much easier resulting in some more incentives of not massing vikings yourselves. They'll get absolutely crushed by Phoenixes But who goes phenixes in TvP? maybe it gives the P incentives to get stargate tech? Maybe its a good thing. People would get phoenixes if they were light though. A few of them could obliterate vikings, giving the colossi free reign.
OMG! If vikings were light, I would be so happy as a toss. I would never have to make those crappy stalkers again in PvT!
|
On September 23 2012 08:08 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 08:00 Mataza wrote:On September 23 2012 07:35 Cloak wrote:On September 23 2012 07:31 Mataza wrote:On September 23 2012 07:14 Cloak wrote:On September 23 2012 07:04 Mataza wrote:Ah yes, the eternal miscommunication. First of all, I´m only randomplayer. So I may not be an expert, but I think I have at least some insight to all races. 1: Vikings are not awesome. They are long ranged and that´s it. + Show Spoiler + In 1:1 supply they are roughly equal to Corruptors and Phoenixes. So in real games they have a considerable advantage thanks to their range.
(Equal sup)They win against BC without Yamato and perform even with Yamato. They lose slightly to Carrier.
Each of these units have something besides air ot air that makes them good.
Corruptors are never wasted as long as you have a greater spire. Phoenixes are (arguably) good for harrassing and scouting.
BC and Carrier are much better versus ground than vikings though they are very hard to produce.
All that is awesome about vikings is that they cost 25 less gas than Corruptors and Phoenixes. 2: Grounded Vikings are anecdotally pretty shit. + Show Spoiler +They are roughly a marauder without stim & conc shell, 1 less armor, can´t be healed, but 50%/300% more expensive out of a more gasheavy building. 2.5: Grounded Vikings can only fight where they can land. + Show Spoiler +Another reason why they suck at harass(Main reason is their much, much more valuable and much less effective compared to M&M Drops). Defense buildings damage them before they can land.
During a battle it´s often hard to land vikings in good spots, especially if you have many vikings. Landing them next to enemy units is often suicide. 3. Terran infrastructure costs a fuckton more than other P and Z and produces units slower. THIS is often overlooked. + Show Spoiler +Because of addons, a reactor Rax is worth 200/50, a lab Rax 200/25. Likewise are Factorys and Starports 200/150 or 200/125 depending on addon.
There is no warpin in 5 seconds and there are no stored larva. Instead, addons take *additional* time to be built.
A starport for example takes 50 seconds to build. A reactor takes another 50 seconds. A new reactor starport takes as much time to build as a hatchery(100 seconds).
With the addition of Warpgates, Terran is the only race that cannot instantly build a new army.
So Terran is much, much slower to change their production. Part of the reason why they have trouble in the lategame.
If Vikings were so awesome, Terrans would still build them before Colossus/Broodlords hit the field. It´s been a long time since I´ve seen that. They are very good in certain situations and obviously against Broodlords and Colossi, but there are also situations were they quite frankly suck. Considering the huge cost to get them - and by that I also mean the number of starports you had to build - they would still suck versus most ground units if they were buffed. And if Protoss wants to make air units too, they have to pay a hefty 150/150 without the benefit of a Reactor. You don't want to overmake Vikings not because they suck at what they do, but because they're good for air dominance. If the Terran isn't going air, or the opponent isn't going air, then yea they won't be optimal. Terrans premake Vikings all the time in TvT to maintain air dominance throughout the game. Vikings already see use in every single matchup almost all the time. They're the least deserving unit for buffs. Yes, and Phoenixes with chrono take only 24 seconds to come out. That´s 2 in 48 seconds, while a reactor makes 2 Vikings in 42. Moot point. It's not a moot point at all. Reactor is 100% uptime with a 100% production boost. Chronoboost is a 50% boost that is not consistent at all. You can't justify buffs for reasons that are untrue. Vikings are readily produceable and have always been. Because Phoenixes are considered essential.Because Stargates are more expensive and slower to build than reactor Starports.Sorry you lost me there. Without Chronoboost you still build 2 Phoenixes in 70 seconds. You may not have 100% uptime with chronoboost, but the infrastructure is still a lot more costly. 150/150/60 seconds vs. 200/150/100 seconds. With Chronoboost you almost produce at the same speed. Also don´t forget that addons are obligatory. Terran is balanced around having an addon on every building. I don´t see why we are arguing about this. Yes, Stargate is a lot less viable than Starport. On the other hand terran has only Vikings and Marines as anti air. Nothing is without a tradeoff, so please don´t act like Vikings have some insane advantage except their range. Marines and Vikings are arguably the best anti-air in the game though. Terran infrastructure isn't really that much more expensive than Protoss stuff. Robo is roughly the same as Factory. Stargate is roughly the same as Starport. And Gateway is roughly the same as Barracks. Gateway has more units come out of it, but in exchange, less useful units come out of their other buildings. Protoss is balanced around everything being Chronoboosted. Same issue as being balanced around Reactor and Larva Inject. Vikings don't have an insane advantage, but they don't need buffs. I want Mech to work, but buffing Vikings is not the answer. Bio is fine. That's why I'm arguing this. To argue that Vikings need to be better at ground is like arguing Colossus needs to be better at air. Neither unit needs anything right now if not nerfs.
Gateway: 150/0 - 65 seconds
Reactor Rax: 200/50 - 115 seconds
Robo: 200/100 - 65 seconds
Tech Fact: 200/125 - 85 seconds
Reactor Fact: 200/150 - 110 seconds
Stargate: 150/150 - 60 seconds
Reactor Port: 200/150 - 100 seconds
So yeah, I don´t think they are roughly the same.
I don´t think Vikings need a buff. Didn´t say it. I´m a facts person, I only care about how much sense people make.
My opinion Vikings are necessary right now and that sucks. They are tied to being the hard counter to Colossi and Broods and can´t be anything else in turn.
I just get agitated if people say "I would kill to have this unit as Protoss". See any zerg saying that? No, because they got better units already.
|
No offense but i think this is straight out retarded, you don't want a unit that can do everything, especially not if that is being one of the best aa units in the game while being a decent ground unit, vikings should be made to counter air not be usefull on the ground aswell cause this would negate any kind of air play from the opponent.
|
On September 23 2012 08:36 Mataza wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 08:08 Cloak wrote:On September 23 2012 08:00 Mataza wrote:On September 23 2012 07:35 Cloak wrote:On September 23 2012 07:31 Mataza wrote:On September 23 2012 07:14 Cloak wrote:On September 23 2012 07:04 Mataza wrote:Ah yes, the eternal miscommunication. First of all, I´m only randomplayer. So I may not be an expert, but I think I have at least some insight to all races. 1: Vikings are not awesome. They are long ranged and that´s it. + Show Spoiler + In 1:1 supply they are roughly equal to Corruptors and Phoenixes. So in real games they have a considerable advantage thanks to their range.
(Equal sup)They win against BC without Yamato and perform even with Yamato. They lose slightly to Carrier.
Each of these units have something besides air ot air that makes them good.
Corruptors are never wasted as long as you have a greater spire. Phoenixes are (arguably) good for harrassing and scouting.
BC and Carrier are much better versus ground than vikings though they are very hard to produce.
All that is awesome about vikings is that they cost 25 less gas than Corruptors and Phoenixes. 2: Grounded Vikings are anecdotally pretty shit. + Show Spoiler +They are roughly a marauder without stim & conc shell, 1 less armor, can´t be healed, but 50%/300% more expensive out of a more gasheavy building. 2.5: Grounded Vikings can only fight where they can land. + Show Spoiler +Another reason why they suck at harass(Main reason is their much, much more valuable and much less effective compared to M&M Drops). Defense buildings damage them before they can land.
During a battle it´s often hard to land vikings in good spots, especially if you have many vikings. Landing them next to enemy units is often suicide. 3. Terran infrastructure costs a fuckton more than other P and Z and produces units slower. THIS is often overlooked. + Show Spoiler +Because of addons, a reactor Rax is worth 200/50, a lab Rax 200/25. Likewise are Factorys and Starports 200/150 or 200/125 depending on addon.
There is no warpin in 5 seconds and there are no stored larva. Instead, addons take *additional* time to be built.
A starport for example takes 50 seconds to build. A reactor takes another 50 seconds. A new reactor starport takes as much time to build as a hatchery(100 seconds).
With the addition of Warpgates, Terran is the only race that cannot instantly build a new army.
So Terran is much, much slower to change their production. Part of the reason why they have trouble in the lategame.
If Vikings were so awesome, Terrans would still build them before Colossus/Broodlords hit the field. It´s been a long time since I´ve seen that. They are very good in certain situations and obviously against Broodlords and Colossi, but there are also situations were they quite frankly suck. Considering the huge cost to get them - and by that I also mean the number of starports you had to build - they would still suck versus most ground units if they were buffed. And if Protoss wants to make air units too, they have to pay a hefty 150/150 without the benefit of a Reactor. You don't want to overmake Vikings not because they suck at what they do, but because they're good for air dominance. If the Terran isn't going air, or the opponent isn't going air, then yea they won't be optimal. Terrans premake Vikings all the time in TvT to maintain air dominance throughout the game. Vikings already see use in every single matchup almost all the time. They're the least deserving unit for buffs. Yes, and Phoenixes with chrono take only 24 seconds to come out. That´s 2 in 48 seconds, while a reactor makes 2 Vikings in 42. Moot point. It's not a moot point at all. Reactor is 100% uptime with a 100% production boost. Chronoboost is a 50% boost that is not consistent at all. You can't justify buffs for reasons that are untrue. Vikings are readily produceable and have always been. Because Phoenixes are considered essential.Because Stargates are more expensive and slower to build than reactor Starports.Sorry you lost me there. Without Chronoboost you still build 2 Phoenixes in 70 seconds. You may not have 100% uptime with chronoboost, but the infrastructure is still a lot more costly. 150/150/60 seconds vs. 200/150/100 seconds. With Chronoboost you almost produce at the same speed. Also don´t forget that addons are obligatory. Terran is balanced around having an addon on every building. I don´t see why we are arguing about this. Yes, Stargate is a lot less viable than Starport. On the other hand terran has only Vikings and Marines as anti air. Nothing is without a tradeoff, so please don´t act like Vikings have some insane advantage except their range. Marines and Vikings are arguably the best anti-air in the game though. Terran infrastructure isn't really that much more expensive than Protoss stuff. Robo is roughly the same as Factory. Stargate is roughly the same as Starport. And Gateway is roughly the same as Barracks. Gateway has more units come out of it, but in exchange, less useful units come out of their other buildings. Protoss is balanced around everything being Chronoboosted. Same issue as being balanced around Reactor and Larva Inject. Vikings don't have an insane advantage, but they don't need buffs. I want Mech to work, but buffing Vikings is not the answer. Bio is fine. That's why I'm arguing this. To argue that Vikings need to be better at ground is like arguing Colossus needs to be better at air. Neither unit needs anything right now if not nerfs. Gateway: 150/0 - 65 seconds Reactor Rax: 200/50 - 115 seconds Robo: 200/100 - 65 seconds Tech Fact: 200/125 - 85 seconds Reactor Fact: 200/150 - 110 seconds Stargate: 150/150 - 60 seconds Reactor Port: 200/150 - 100 seconds So yeah, I don´t think they are roughly the same. I don´t think Vikings need a buff. Didn´t say it. I´m a facts person, I only care about how much sense people make. My opinion Vikings are necessary right now and that sucks. They are tied to being the hard counter to Colossi and Broods and can´t be anything else in turn. I just get agitated if people say "I would kill to have this unit as Protoss". See any zerg saying that? No, because they got better units already.
You can build and swap tech labs and reactors with any barracks/factory/starport. This is a huge buff from BW where you didn't have interchangeable addons. Pretty much every terran that isn't going for 1/1/1 is going to use their factory to build the reactor for their starport. Just because the longest way is possible, doesn't mean people aren't going to use the shortcuts available to them.
I don't really understand what you mean by the last part of your post either.
|
On September 23 2012 08:37 Tedde93 wrote:
No offense but i think this is straight out retarded, you don't want a unit that can do everything, especially not if that is being one of the best aa units in the game while being a decent ground unit, vikings should be made to counter air not be usefull on the ground aswell cause this would negate any kind of air play from the opponent.
Or just make it have a more specific role when on the ground. I don't know why, but based on the graphics and "feel" of a ground viking, I'd expect it to shred light targets to pieces rapidly, whilst not being super effective against anything with armour on, so I'd love to see it have some bonus damage against light units, whilst making it worse against armoured. Something like 5 (+5 vs light) x2 would be pretty neat. Could also potentially turn them into an alternative to marine drops as harass for a meching player?
|
Terrans need some late-game buffer against tech-switches, this sounds like as good of an idea as any. I'm a little hesitant to give them ANOTHER good, mobile harass unit though.
|
On September 23 2012 10:31 ObliviousNA wrote:
Terrans need some late-game buffer against tech-switches, this sounds like as good of an idea as any. I'm a little hesitant to give them ANOTHER good, mobile harass unit though.
Thin line to walk thou. They want to avoid having it work in every situtaion
|
would be a good idea, but i think viking's the best as an anti-air.
might as well make marines for better ground dps
|
reason they were changed in wol beta, this is not a fix. I remember when people like Namchir would drop 10 of these into your main and it was a huge pain to defend + repel off the frontal assault. Although this was on maps like that one I forget? the 2 mains were in the middle expo's spread out with 2 paths into nat.
|
Just make the maps smaller again... This solves the Terran mech problem.
|
On September 23 2012 11:00 Sacred Reich wrote:
Just make the maps smaller again... This solves the Terran mech problem.
smaller maps will make p and z rage again.
a balance of small/medium/large ladder maps should be distributed.
|
On September 23 2012 08:09 YyapSsap wrote:
How about removing that armoured attribute and instead make it light?
It will take far less damage vs immortals/tanks/stalkers/fungal etc + longer viking wars where micro counts + thors can repell vikings so much easier resulting in some more incentives of not massing vikings yourselves.
you want phoenix to destroy vikings quickly?
|
Really interesting idea seeing how vikings on the ground absolutely BLOW.
|
On September 23 2012 01:32 GinDo wrote:
Ground Vikings would be viable if:
1) Ground mode benefits from Mech Upgrades.
2) Drop the price to that of a Goliath.
drop the price ? why ? they dont have the mobility of goliath they are WAY more mobile and more versatile in plane mode .
|
On September 23 2012 11:20 CodeskyE wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 08:09 YyapSsap wrote:
How about removing that armoured attribute and instead make it light?
It will take far less damage vs immortals/tanks/stalkers/fungal etc + longer viking wars where micro counts + thors can repell vikings so much easier resulting in some more incentives of not massing vikings yourselves. you want phoenix to destroy vikings quickly?
Maybe phoenixes might need a slight nerf? Of course numbers need to be changed a little.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
