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On September 27 2012 15:11 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 15:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Yes, it costs 3x the cost of marines discounting gas, but does two times their unstimmed dps landed and +1 range?
They are expensive, I agree a minor buff such as attack while moving could help them as meat shields for tanks or thors. BUT THEY FLY!!!!!OMFG stop overlooking the fundamental issue that the viking is the CHEAPEST FLYING UNIT IN THE GAME! With no assault mode at all it would be a well balanced, well priced unit. This retarded shit is like complaining that maruaders are cheaper than stalkers. Stalkers can shoot UP. That matters a LOT. Phoenix cost 150/100 and can only lift a unit when they have the energy, cannot harm buildings and cannot harm massive units, but that's ok because they FUCKING FLY!!!! When will you idiots stop pretending that vikings CAN'T fly so that you can ask for a buff to their ground mode. "Herp derp, but if you pretend that vikings can't fly then they are SUPER expensive and even cost GAS!!"
You can't separate between a unit that is decent vs ground and a unit that hard counters ground.
The current situation is that the terran has to balance the number of vikings fairly well to deal with colossus or just outright die.
Right now vikings in ground mode have very little utility. They basically only work as adding insult to injury in an already won game or a last-resort panic unit which makes you pray that it was a marauder.
Vikings wont start owning shit on the ground just because you buff them slightly. Don't you understand this?
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Combining Vehicle and Air upgrades is an interesting idea for an indirect buff to Terran lategame vs Zerg and to a lesser extent Protoss, otherwise a minor buff to Vikings like +1 Armor could be enough to buff Terran lategame vs Zerg air compositions and make Assaul Mode Vikings more viable vs Zealots because it reduces 2 damage per Zealot attack, or change their ground attack to 1.5 attack speed and 18 damage in order to decrease the effectiveness of armor vs your attacks or increase the upgrade damage bonus to +2 instead of +1 for the ground attack only?
I don't think you have to change Viking Assault Mode fundamentally in order to make Assault Vikings good vs Zealots, just combining Vehicle and Air upgrades into a single upgrade and giving the Assault Viking a minor buff in Armor or bonus damage could make them viable. Mech has to build Vikings to protect itself from air regardless, so making Assault Vikings the "meat shields" of Tanks seems like a better use of a pre-existing unit than a Bio Battle Hellion.
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On September 27 2012 18:44 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 15:11 Kharnage wrote:On September 27 2012 15:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Yes, it costs 3x the cost of marines discounting gas, but does two times their unstimmed dps landed and +1 range?
They are expensive, I agree a minor buff such as attack while moving could help them as meat shields for tanks or thors. BUT THEY FLY!!!!!OMFG stop overlooking the fundamental issue that the viking is the CHEAPEST FLYING UNIT IN THE GAME! With no assault mode at all it would be a well balanced, well priced unit. This retarded shit is like complaining that maruaders are cheaper than stalkers. Stalkers can shoot UP. That matters a LOT. Phoenix cost 150/100 and can only lift a unit when they have the energy, cannot harm buildings and cannot harm massive units, but that's ok because they FUCKING FLY!!!! When will you idiots stop pretending that vikings CAN'T fly so that you can ask for a buff to their ground mode. "Herp derp, but if you pretend that vikings can't fly then they are SUPER expensive and even cost GAS!!" You can't separate between a unit that is decent vs ground and a unit that hard counters ground. The current situation is that the terran has to balance the number of vikings fairly well to deal with colossus or just outright die. Right now vikings in ground mode have very little utility. They basically only work as adding insult to injury in an already won game or a last-resort panic unit which makes you pray that it was a marauder. Vikings wont start owning shit on the ground just because you buff them slightly. Don't you understand this?
Marauders don't hard counter ground. Marauders hard counter Stalkers, Roaches, unsieged Tanks, Thors, and things that are trying to hit Light units for a lot of damage. Vikings hard counter many things in the air. They hard counter Brood Lords, Void Rays, Battlecruisers, Banshees, and Motherships. They shut down all kinds of dropships. They trade suitably with Phoenix, Corruptors, and Carriers. I don't need to mention the Colossus. They are also decent on the ground. They trade suitably with Stalkers and Hydralisks. They can be used to buffer a fair amount of damage and clean up leftover units. This is balanced. You are right that the Terran has to balance the Viking count "fairly well". It is also true that the Protoss has to balance the Colossus count fairly well. If the Protoss overproduces Colossi, then the Terran will have enough Vikings to kill all the Colossi and leave the Protoss with no AOE. This happens in a fair number of pro games. If it did not happen, then Protoss would never have to transition out of Colossi. You are coming into this with an astonishingly biased perspective that fails to realize that the Viking already has a fantastic safety net compared to really any other air to air dedicated unit, along with being incredibly effective and cost-efficient. When a Zerg player makes Corruptors, there is not this safety net. When a Protoss makes Phoenix, there is not this safety net. Only Terran gets this generous offer, and you ask for more. That is not reasonable. That is essentially a balance whine.
I can't believe it, of all the units in the Terran race you choose the Viking to complain about. What's next? Is the Marine too weak to AOE? It's just not RIGHT for units to be good against everything!
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On September 27 2012 19:02 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 18:44 one-one-one wrote:On September 27 2012 15:11 Kharnage wrote:On September 27 2012 15:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Yes, it costs 3x the cost of marines discounting gas, but does two times their unstimmed dps landed and +1 range?
They are expensive, I agree a minor buff such as attack while moving could help them as meat shields for tanks or thors. BUT THEY FLY!!!!!OMFG stop overlooking the fundamental issue that the viking is the CHEAPEST FLYING UNIT IN THE GAME! With no assault mode at all it would be a well balanced, well priced unit. This retarded shit is like complaining that maruaders are cheaper than stalkers. Stalkers can shoot UP. That matters a LOT. Phoenix cost 150/100 and can only lift a unit when they have the energy, cannot harm buildings and cannot harm massive units, but that's ok because they FUCKING FLY!!!! When will you idiots stop pretending that vikings CAN'T fly so that you can ask for a buff to their ground mode. "Herp derp, but if you pretend that vikings can't fly then they are SUPER expensive and even cost GAS!!" You can't separate between a unit that is decent vs ground and a unit that hard counters ground. The current situation is that the terran has to balance the number of vikings fairly well to deal with colossus or just outright die. Right now vikings in ground mode have very little utility. They basically only work as adding insult to injury in an already won game or a last-resort panic unit which makes you pray that it was a marauder. Vikings wont start owning shit on the ground just because you buff them slightly. Don't you understand this? Marauders don't hard counter ground. Marauders hard counter Stalkers, Roaches, unsieged Tanks, Thors, and things that are trying to hit Light units for a lot of damage. Vikings hard counter many things in the air. They hard counter Brood Lords, Void Rays, Battlecruisers, Banshees, and Motherships. They shut down all kinds of dropships. They trade suitably with Phoenix, Corruptors, and Carriers. I don't need to mention the Colossus. They are also decent on the ground. They trade suitably with Stalkers and Hydralisks. They can be used to buffer a fair amount of damage and clean up leftover units. This is balanced. You are right that the Terran has to balance the Viking count "fairly well". It is also true that the Protoss has to balance the Colossus count fairly well. If the Protoss overproduces Colossi, then the Terran will have enough Vikings to kill all the Colossi and leave the Protoss with no AOE. This happens in a fair number of pro games. If it did not happen, then Protoss would never have to transition out of Colossi. You are coming into this with an astonishingly biased perspective that fails to realize that the Viking already has a fantastic safety net compared to really any other air to air dedicated unit, along with being incredibly effective and cost-efficient. When a Zerg player makes Corruptors, there is not this safety net. When a Protoss makes Phoenix, there is not this safety net. Only Terran gets this generous offer, and you ask for more. That is not reasonable. That is essentially a balance whine. I can't believe it, of all the units in the Terran race you choose the Viking to complain about. What's next? Is the Marine too weak to AOE? It's just not RIGHT for units to be good against everything!
Thanks for very eloquently putting in words what i was thinking when i read this topic. Buffing vikings to make mech work is simply trying to solve a problem by creating a new one.
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On September 27 2012 19:02 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 18:44 one-one-one wrote:On September 27 2012 15:11 Kharnage wrote:On September 27 2012 15:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Yes, it costs 3x the cost of marines discounting gas, but does two times their unstimmed dps landed and +1 range?
They are expensive, I agree a minor buff such as attack while moving could help them as meat shields for tanks or thors. BUT THEY FLY!!!!!OMFG stop overlooking the fundamental issue that the viking is the CHEAPEST FLYING UNIT IN THE GAME! With no assault mode at all it would be a well balanced, well priced unit. This retarded shit is like complaining that maruaders are cheaper than stalkers. Stalkers can shoot UP. That matters a LOT. Phoenix cost 150/100 and can only lift a unit when they have the energy, cannot harm buildings and cannot harm massive units, but that's ok because they FUCKING FLY!!!! When will you idiots stop pretending that vikings CAN'T fly so that you can ask for a buff to their ground mode. "Herp derp, but if you pretend that vikings can't fly then they are SUPER expensive and even cost GAS!!" You can't separate between a unit that is decent vs ground and a unit that hard counters ground. The current situation is that the terran has to balance the number of vikings fairly well to deal with colossus or just outright die. Right now vikings in ground mode have very little utility. They basically only work as adding insult to injury in an already won game or a last-resort panic unit which makes you pray that it was a marauder. Vikings wont start owning shit on the ground just because you buff them slightly. Don't you understand this? Marauders don't hard counter ground. Marauders hard counter Stalkers, Roaches, unsieged Tanks, Thors, and things that are trying to hit Light units for a lot of damage. Vikings hard counter many things in the air. They hard counter Brood Lords, Void Rays, Battlecruisers, Banshees, and Motherships. They shut down all kinds of dropships. They trade suitably with Phoenix, Corruptors, and Carriers. I don't need to mention the Colossus. They are also decent on the ground. They trade suitably with Stalkers and Hydralisks. They can be used to buffer a fair amount of damage and clean up leftover units. This is balanced. You are right that the Terran has to balance the Viking count "fairly well". It is also true that the Protoss has to balance the Colossus count fairly well. If the Protoss overproduces Colossi, then the Terran will have enough Vikings to kill all the Colossi and leave the Protoss with no AOE. This happens in a fair number of pro games. If it did not happen, then Protoss would never have to transition out of Colossi. You are coming into this with an astonishingly biased perspective that fails to realize that the Viking already has a fantastic safety net compared to really any other air to air dedicated unit, along with being incredibly effective and cost-efficient. When a Zerg player makes Corruptors, there is not this safety net. When a Protoss makes Phoenix, there is not this safety net. Only Terran gets this generous offer, and you ask for more. That is not reasonable. That is essentially a balance whine. I can't believe it, of all the units in the Terran race you choose the Viking to complain about. What's next? Is the Marine too weak to AOE? It's just not RIGHT for units to be good against everything!
Vikings pretty much hard counter Carriers too with micro. Morrow was doing a unit test earlier in his stream with full upgrades. I think it was 60 Supply each. If it's a-move vs. a-move, Carriers win handily 70% remain. If Vikings stutter step at max range for powerful bursts, Vikings win handily 70% remain. As of right now, Protoss has no answer to mass Vikings and they never really did, which is exactly why Protoss air is never seen in PvT. Carriers need their BW micro to compete, because Interceptors leash too stupidly to be able to have some micro against Viking micro.
The only issue I see with Terran air is their lack of dealing with Zerg tech switches from BL to Ultra. How about an anti-Ultra ability that doesn't upset PvT balance? If Grounded Vikings are the primary target of splash attacks (Ultra cleave), make it so all the splash is absorbed by their new ability "Flanking Armor." I hardly think Seige Tanks and Colossus will care one bit, but it might work well against Ultras that rely on their huge splash range.
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On September 27 2012 19:20 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 19:02 Acritter wrote:On September 27 2012 18:44 one-one-one wrote:On September 27 2012 15:11 Kharnage wrote:On September 27 2012 15:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Yes, it costs 3x the cost of marines discounting gas, but does two times their unstimmed dps landed and +1 range?
They are expensive, I agree a minor buff such as attack while moving could help them as meat shields for tanks or thors. BUT THEY FLY!!!!!OMFG stop overlooking the fundamental issue that the viking is the CHEAPEST FLYING UNIT IN THE GAME! With no assault mode at all it would be a well balanced, well priced unit. This retarded shit is like complaining that maruaders are cheaper than stalkers. Stalkers can shoot UP. That matters a LOT. Phoenix cost 150/100 and can only lift a unit when they have the energy, cannot harm buildings and cannot harm massive units, but that's ok because they FUCKING FLY!!!! When will you idiots stop pretending that vikings CAN'T fly so that you can ask for a buff to their ground mode. "Herp derp, but if you pretend that vikings can't fly then they are SUPER expensive and even cost GAS!!" You can't separate between a unit that is decent vs ground and a unit that hard counters ground. The current situation is that the terran has to balance the number of vikings fairly well to deal with colossus or just outright die. Right now vikings in ground mode have very little utility. They basically only work as adding insult to injury in an already won game or a last-resort panic unit which makes you pray that it was a marauder. Vikings wont start owning shit on the ground just because you buff them slightly. Don't you understand this? Marauders don't hard counter ground. Marauders hard counter Stalkers, Roaches, unsieged Tanks, Thors, and things that are trying to hit Light units for a lot of damage. Vikings hard counter many things in the air. They hard counter Brood Lords, Void Rays, Battlecruisers, Banshees, and Motherships. They shut down all kinds of dropships. They trade suitably with Phoenix, Corruptors, and Carriers. I don't need to mention the Colossus. They are also decent on the ground. They trade suitably with Stalkers and Hydralisks. They can be used to buffer a fair amount of damage and clean up leftover units. This is balanced. You are right that the Terran has to balance the Viking count "fairly well". It is also true that the Protoss has to balance the Colossus count fairly well. If the Protoss overproduces Colossi, then the Terran will have enough Vikings to kill all the Colossi and leave the Protoss with no AOE. This happens in a fair number of pro games. If it did not happen, then Protoss would never have to transition out of Colossi. You are coming into this with an astonishingly biased perspective that fails to realize that the Viking already has a fantastic safety net compared to really any other air to air dedicated unit, along with being incredibly effective and cost-efficient. When a Zerg player makes Corruptors, there is not this safety net. When a Protoss makes Phoenix, there is not this safety net. Only Terran gets this generous offer, and you ask for more. That is not reasonable. That is essentially a balance whine. I can't believe it, of all the units in the Terran race you choose the Viking to complain about. What's next? Is the Marine too weak to AOE? It's just not RIGHT for units to be good against everything! Vikings pretty much hard counter Carriers too with micro. Morrow was doing a unit test earlier in his stream with full upgrades. I think it was 60 Supply each. If it's a-move vs. a-move, Carriers win handily 70% remain. If Vikings stutter step at max range for powerful bursts, Vikings win handily 70% remain. As of right now, Protoss has no answer to mass Vikings and they never really did, which is exactly why Protoss air is never seen in PvT. Carriers need their BW micro to compete, because Interceptors leash too stupidly to be able to have some micro against Viking micro. The only issue I see with Terran air is their lack of dealing with Zerg tech switches from BL to Ultra. How about an anti-Ultra ability that doesn't upset PvT balance? If Grounded Vikings are the primary target of splash attacks (Ultra cleave), make it so all the splash is absorbed by their new ability "Flanking Armor." I hardly think Seige Tanks and Colossus will care one bit, but it might work well against Ultras that rely on their huge splash range.
This is an artificial situation which will never happen in a real game. In reality the carrier is really good vs mech.
While you kite the Vikings there is ample time for the carriers to do damage to the mech ground army.
The only unit that really deals well with carriers is actually the marine. A bunch of stimmed marines will kill all the interceptors in 3 seconds.
The reason you never see carriers in TvP is the marine - not the viking.
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On September 27 2012 19:26 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 19:20 Cloak wrote:On September 27 2012 19:02 Acritter wrote:On September 27 2012 18:44 one-one-one wrote:On September 27 2012 15:11 Kharnage wrote:On September 27 2012 15:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Yes, it costs 3x the cost of marines discounting gas, but does two times their unstimmed dps landed and +1 range?
They are expensive, I agree a minor buff such as attack while moving could help them as meat shields for tanks or thors. BUT THEY FLY!!!!!OMFG stop overlooking the fundamental issue that the viking is the CHEAPEST FLYING UNIT IN THE GAME! With no assault mode at all it would be a well balanced, well priced unit. This retarded shit is like complaining that maruaders are cheaper than stalkers. Stalkers can shoot UP. That matters a LOT. Phoenix cost 150/100 and can only lift a unit when they have the energy, cannot harm buildings and cannot harm massive units, but that's ok because they FUCKING FLY!!!! When will you idiots stop pretending that vikings CAN'T fly so that you can ask for a buff to their ground mode. "Herp derp, but if you pretend that vikings can't fly then they are SUPER expensive and even cost GAS!!" You can't separate between a unit that is decent vs ground and a unit that hard counters ground. The current situation is that the terran has to balance the number of vikings fairly well to deal with colossus or just outright die. Right now vikings in ground mode have very little utility. They basically only work as adding insult to injury in an already won game or a last-resort panic unit which makes you pray that it was a marauder. Vikings wont start owning shit on the ground just because you buff them slightly. Don't you understand this? Marauders don't hard counter ground. Marauders hard counter Stalkers, Roaches, unsieged Tanks, Thors, and things that are trying to hit Light units for a lot of damage. Vikings hard counter many things in the air. They hard counter Brood Lords, Void Rays, Battlecruisers, Banshees, and Motherships. They shut down all kinds of dropships. They trade suitably with Phoenix, Corruptors, and Carriers. I don't need to mention the Colossus. They are also decent on the ground. They trade suitably with Stalkers and Hydralisks. They can be used to buffer a fair amount of damage and clean up leftover units. This is balanced. You are right that the Terran has to balance the Viking count "fairly well". It is also true that the Protoss has to balance the Colossus count fairly well. If the Protoss overproduces Colossi, then the Terran will have enough Vikings to kill all the Colossi and leave the Protoss with no AOE. This happens in a fair number of pro games. If it did not happen, then Protoss would never have to transition out of Colossi. You are coming into this with an astonishingly biased perspective that fails to realize that the Viking already has a fantastic safety net compared to really any other air to air dedicated unit, along with being incredibly effective and cost-efficient. When a Zerg player makes Corruptors, there is not this safety net. When a Protoss makes Phoenix, there is not this safety net. Only Terran gets this generous offer, and you ask for more. That is not reasonable. That is essentially a balance whine. I can't believe it, of all the units in the Terran race you choose the Viking to complain about. What's next? Is the Marine too weak to AOE? It's just not RIGHT for units to be good against everything! Vikings pretty much hard counter Carriers too with micro. Morrow was doing a unit test earlier in his stream with full upgrades. I think it was 60 Supply each. If it's a-move vs. a-move, Carriers win handily 70% remain. If Vikings stutter step at max range for powerful bursts, Vikings win handily 70% remain. As of right now, Protoss has no answer to mass Vikings and they never really did, which is exactly why Protoss air is never seen in PvT. Carriers need their BW micro to compete, because Interceptors leash too stupidly to be able to have some micro against Viking micro. The only issue I see with Terran air is their lack of dealing with Zerg tech switches from BL to Ultra. How about an anti-Ultra ability that doesn't upset PvT balance? If Grounded Vikings are the primary target of splash attacks (Ultra cleave), make it so all the splash is absorbed by their new ability "Flanking Armor." I hardly think Seige Tanks and Colossus will care one bit, but it might work well against Ultras that rely on their huge splash range. This is an artificial situation which will never happen in a real game. In reality the carrier is really good vs mech. While you kite the Vikings there is ample time for the carriers to do damage to the mech ground army. The only unit that really deals well with carriers is actually the marine. A bunch of stimmed marines will kill all the interceptors in 3 seconds. The reason you never see carriers in TvP is the marine - not the viking.
It's both, honestly. And because we're talking about Mech, Marines are a nonissue. Since Carriers are slower and more cumbersome, there's no way to gain a micro advantage over the Vikings. They will always be kited. It's like a Roach kiting a legless Zealot. There's nothing the Zealot can do except a-move and pray it can catch up. If he runs, he'll be kited. If he pursues he will be kited. Refocusing the Carriers on the ground fight will only guarantee a loss of all your Carriers.
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On September 23 2012 00:48 Piousflea wrote:
With all the attention on Tanks and Hellions and Firebattlehellions, you'd think that people would think about one of the other Terran units that has been around for a long time - Ground Vikings.
Ground Vikings are weak. REALLY weak. They weren't always so bad. IIRC at one point in WoL Beta they had 1 Armor and 14 damage and could compete toe-to-toe vs stalkers and hydralisks. Thing is, a usable Ground Viking would actually fill a lot of the holes in HotS Mech.
Agreed.
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If the biggest problem with vikings is indeed the broodlord ultra switch as someone else said in this thread, then the sugested buff by the op is actually a hidden nerf as vikings will go from doing 9 damage to doing 8 damage to an ultra, and with unequal upgrades, wich is verry likely with vikings, this difference will only be bigger.
I realy dont hope that blizzard will completely give up the warhound and instead give us a buff to the ground viking -.-
It seems the easy way out and this thread getting so manny responses makes me fear for this scenario a little bit.
Annyway:if they do, i surely do hope they find a different way of buffing the viking then the one sugested in the op, wich is arguably a nerf in the situation where vikings would need the buff the most.
increase their hp and reduce their seize.
The seize of the unit is supposed to have some relation with the amount of its hit points, and with the viking this balance is completely off.
Beeing a big unit is a huge disadvantage in the majority of the situations you encounter.
@below:And yes vikings are terrible against carrier or anny other protoss air, despite what people seem to find out in the unit tester.
Reason for protoss not going air seems to be the marine indeed, wich is usually at least equally upgraded as the carrier.
On morrrows streams i saw morrow at one point having like 25+ vikings and still didnt manage to get annything done (with kiting) to like 3 carriers and 5 tempest,
you should compare how they fight in a real game , in a real game protos going air will always have a huge upgrade advantage over vikings and somehow the vikings just die.
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On September 27 2012 19:33 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 19:26 one-one-one wrote:On September 27 2012 19:20 Cloak wrote:On September 27 2012 19:02 Acritter wrote:On September 27 2012 18:44 one-one-one wrote:On September 27 2012 15:11 Kharnage wrote:On September 27 2012 15:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Yes, it costs 3x the cost of marines discounting gas, but does two times their unstimmed dps landed and +1 range?
They are expensive, I agree a minor buff such as attack while moving could help them as meat shields for tanks or thors. BUT THEY FLY!!!!!OMFG stop overlooking the fundamental issue that the viking is the CHEAPEST FLYING UNIT IN THE GAME! With no assault mode at all it would be a well balanced, well priced unit. This retarded shit is like complaining that maruaders are cheaper than stalkers. Stalkers can shoot UP. That matters a LOT. Phoenix cost 150/100 and can only lift a unit when they have the energy, cannot harm buildings and cannot harm massive units, but that's ok because they FUCKING FLY!!!! When will you idiots stop pretending that vikings CAN'T fly so that you can ask for a buff to their ground mode. "Herp derp, but if you pretend that vikings can't fly then they are SUPER expensive and even cost GAS!!" You can't separate between a unit that is decent vs ground and a unit that hard counters ground. The current situation is that the terran has to balance the number of vikings fairly well to deal with colossus or just outright die. Right now vikings in ground mode have very little utility. They basically only work as adding insult to injury in an already won game or a last-resort panic unit which makes you pray that it was a marauder. Vikings wont start owning shit on the ground just because you buff them slightly. Don't you understand this? Marauders don't hard counter ground. Marauders hard counter Stalkers, Roaches, unsieged Tanks, Thors, and things that are trying to hit Light units for a lot of damage. Vikings hard counter many things in the air. They hard counter Brood Lords, Void Rays, Battlecruisers, Banshees, and Motherships. They shut down all kinds of dropships. They trade suitably with Phoenix, Corruptors, and Carriers. I don't need to mention the Colossus. They are also decent on the ground. They trade suitably with Stalkers and Hydralisks. They can be used to buffer a fair amount of damage and clean up leftover units. This is balanced. You are right that the Terran has to balance the Viking count "fairly well". It is also true that the Protoss has to balance the Colossus count fairly well. If the Protoss overproduces Colossi, then the Terran will have enough Vikings to kill all the Colossi and leave the Protoss with no AOE. This happens in a fair number of pro games. If it did not happen, then Protoss would never have to transition out of Colossi. You are coming into this with an astonishingly biased perspective that fails to realize that the Viking already has a fantastic safety net compared to really any other air to air dedicated unit, along with being incredibly effective and cost-efficient. When a Zerg player makes Corruptors, there is not this safety net. When a Protoss makes Phoenix, there is not this safety net. Only Terran gets this generous offer, and you ask for more. That is not reasonable. That is essentially a balance whine. I can't believe it, of all the units in the Terran race you choose the Viking to complain about. What's next? Is the Marine too weak to AOE? It's just not RIGHT for units to be good against everything! Vikings pretty much hard counter Carriers too with micro. Morrow was doing a unit test earlier in his stream with full upgrades. I think it was 60 Supply each. If it's a-move vs. a-move, Carriers win handily 70% remain. If Vikings stutter step at max range for powerful bursts, Vikings win handily 70% remain. As of right now, Protoss has no answer to mass Vikings and they never really did, which is exactly why Protoss air is never seen in PvT. Carriers need their BW micro to compete, because Interceptors leash too stupidly to be able to have some micro against Viking micro. The only issue I see with Terran air is their lack of dealing with Zerg tech switches from BL to Ultra. How about an anti-Ultra ability that doesn't upset PvT balance? If Grounded Vikings are the primary target of splash attacks (Ultra cleave), make it so all the splash is absorbed by their new ability "Flanking Armor." I hardly think Seige Tanks and Colossus will care one bit, but it might work well against Ultras that rely on their huge splash range. This is an artificial situation which will never happen in a real game. In reality the carrier is really good vs mech. While you kite the Vikings there is ample time for the carriers to do damage to the mech ground army. The only unit that really deals well with carriers is actually the marine. A bunch of stimmed marines will kill all the interceptors in 3 seconds. The reason you never see carriers in TvP is the marine - not the viking. It's both, honestly. And because we're talking about Mech, Marines are a nonissue. Since Carriers are slower and more cumbersome, there's no way to gain a micro advantage over the Vikings. They will always be kited. It's like a Roach kiting a legless Zealot. There's nothing the Zealot can do except a-move and pray it can catch up. If he runs, he'll be kited. If he pursues he will be kited. Refocusing the Carriers on the ground fight will only guarantee a loss of all your Carriers.
you are terribly wrong. Vikings arent good vs Carriers if you dont have a lot more than # of carriers.
When you attack with 9 range vikings you have to stop for a moment. in that time the carrier will get in his 8 range and lunch the interceptors. the interceptors give you 6 more range. they will fight against the vikings until they are out of the 14 range. then you can start attacking again with vikings but you already lost a (huge) amount of vikings in that first "fight".
tldr: if you have like 6 carriers your vikings will melt. Thors dont help and turrets may be the only help when going mech.
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On September 27 2012 19:58 Tppz! wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 19:33 Cloak wrote:On September 27 2012 19:26 one-one-one wrote:On September 27 2012 19:20 Cloak wrote:On September 27 2012 19:02 Acritter wrote:On September 27 2012 18:44 one-one-one wrote:On September 27 2012 15:11 Kharnage wrote:On September 27 2012 15:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Yes, it costs 3x the cost of marines discounting gas, but does two times their unstimmed dps landed and +1 range?
They are expensive, I agree a minor buff such as attack while moving could help them as meat shields for tanks or thors. BUT THEY FLY!!!!!OMFG stop overlooking the fundamental issue that the viking is the CHEAPEST FLYING UNIT IN THE GAME! With no assault mode at all it would be a well balanced, well priced unit. This retarded shit is like complaining that maruaders are cheaper than stalkers. Stalkers can shoot UP. That matters a LOT. Phoenix cost 150/100 and can only lift a unit when they have the energy, cannot harm buildings and cannot harm massive units, but that's ok because they FUCKING FLY!!!! When will you idiots stop pretending that vikings CAN'T fly so that you can ask for a buff to their ground mode. "Herp derp, but if you pretend that vikings can't fly then they are SUPER expensive and even cost GAS!!" You can't separate between a unit that is decent vs ground and a unit that hard counters ground. The current situation is that the terran has to balance the number of vikings fairly well to deal with colossus or just outright die. Right now vikings in ground mode have very little utility. They basically only work as adding insult to injury in an already won game or a last-resort panic unit which makes you pray that it was a marauder. Vikings wont start owning shit on the ground just because you buff them slightly. Don't you understand this? Marauders don't hard counter ground. Marauders hard counter Stalkers, Roaches, unsieged Tanks, Thors, and things that are trying to hit Light units for a lot of damage. Vikings hard counter many things in the air. They hard counter Brood Lords, Void Rays, Battlecruisers, Banshees, and Motherships. They shut down all kinds of dropships. They trade suitably with Phoenix, Corruptors, and Carriers. I don't need to mention the Colossus. They are also decent on the ground. They trade suitably with Stalkers and Hydralisks. They can be used to buffer a fair amount of damage and clean up leftover units. This is balanced. You are right that the Terran has to balance the Viking count "fairly well". It is also true that the Protoss has to balance the Colossus count fairly well. If the Protoss overproduces Colossi, then the Terran will have enough Vikings to kill all the Colossi and leave the Protoss with no AOE. This happens in a fair number of pro games. If it did not happen, then Protoss would never have to transition out of Colossi. You are coming into this with an astonishingly biased perspective that fails to realize that the Viking already has a fantastic safety net compared to really any other air to air dedicated unit, along with being incredibly effective and cost-efficient. When a Zerg player makes Corruptors, there is not this safety net. When a Protoss makes Phoenix, there is not this safety net. Only Terran gets this generous offer, and you ask for more. That is not reasonable. That is essentially a balance whine. I can't believe it, of all the units in the Terran race you choose the Viking to complain about. What's next? Is the Marine too weak to AOE? It's just not RIGHT for units to be good against everything! Vikings pretty much hard counter Carriers too with micro. Morrow was doing a unit test earlier in his stream with full upgrades. I think it was 60 Supply each. If it's a-move vs. a-move, Carriers win handily 70% remain. If Vikings stutter step at max range for powerful bursts, Vikings win handily 70% remain. As of right now, Protoss has no answer to mass Vikings and they never really did, which is exactly why Protoss air is never seen in PvT. Carriers need their BW micro to compete, because Interceptors leash too stupidly to be able to have some micro against Viking micro. The only issue I see with Terran air is their lack of dealing with Zerg tech switches from BL to Ultra. How about an anti-Ultra ability that doesn't upset PvT balance? If Grounded Vikings are the primary target of splash attacks (Ultra cleave), make it so all the splash is absorbed by their new ability "Flanking Armor." I hardly think Seige Tanks and Colossus will care one bit, but it might work well against Ultras that rely on their huge splash range. This is an artificial situation which will never happen in a real game. In reality the carrier is really good vs mech. While you kite the Vikings there is ample time for the carriers to do damage to the mech ground army. The only unit that really deals well with carriers is actually the marine. A bunch of stimmed marines will kill all the interceptors in 3 seconds. The reason you never see carriers in TvP is the marine - not the viking. It's both, honestly. And because we're talking about Mech, Marines are a nonissue. Since Carriers are slower and more cumbersome, there's no way to gain a micro advantage over the Vikings. They will always be kited. It's like a Roach kiting a legless Zealot. There's nothing the Zealot can do except a-move and pray it can catch up. If he runs, he'll be kited. If he pursues he will be kited. Refocusing the Carriers on the ground fight will only guarantee a loss of all your Carriers. you are terribly wrong. Vikings arent good vs Carriers if you dont have a lot more than # of carriers. When you attack with 9 range vikings you have to stop for a moment. in that time the carrier will get in his 8 range and lunch the interceptors. the interceptors give you 6 more range. they will fight against the vikings until they are out of the 14 range. then you can start attacking again with vikings but you already lost a (huge) amount of vikings in that first "fight". tldr: if you have like 6 carriers your vikings will melt. Thors dont help and turrets may be the only help when going mech.
5 widow mines under the vikings = all interceptors dead ^^
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On September 27 2012 19:26 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 19:20 Cloak wrote:On September 27 2012 19:02 Acritter wrote:On September 27 2012 18:44 one-one-one wrote:On September 27 2012 15:11 Kharnage wrote:On September 27 2012 15:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Yes, it costs 3x the cost of marines discounting gas, but does two times their unstimmed dps landed and +1 range?
They are expensive, I agree a minor buff such as attack while moving could help them as meat shields for tanks or thors. BUT THEY FLY!!!!!OMFG stop overlooking the fundamental issue that the viking is the CHEAPEST FLYING UNIT IN THE GAME! With no assault mode at all it would be a well balanced, well priced unit. This retarded shit is like complaining that maruaders are cheaper than stalkers. Stalkers can shoot UP. That matters a LOT. Phoenix cost 150/100 and can only lift a unit when they have the energy, cannot harm buildings and cannot harm massive units, but that's ok because they FUCKING FLY!!!! When will you idiots stop pretending that vikings CAN'T fly so that you can ask for a buff to their ground mode. "Herp derp, but if you pretend that vikings can't fly then they are SUPER expensive and even cost GAS!!" You can't separate between a unit that is decent vs ground and a unit that hard counters ground. The current situation is that the terran has to balance the number of vikings fairly well to deal with colossus or just outright die. Right now vikings in ground mode have very little utility. They basically only work as adding insult to injury in an already won game or a last-resort panic unit which makes you pray that it was a marauder. Vikings wont start owning shit on the ground just because you buff them slightly. Don't you understand this? Marauders don't hard counter ground. Marauders hard counter Stalkers, Roaches, unsieged Tanks, Thors, and things that are trying to hit Light units for a lot of damage. Vikings hard counter many things in the air. They hard counter Brood Lords, Void Rays, Battlecruisers, Banshees, and Motherships. They shut down all kinds of dropships. They trade suitably with Phoenix, Corruptors, and Carriers. I don't need to mention the Colossus. They are also decent on the ground. They trade suitably with Stalkers and Hydralisks. They can be used to buffer a fair amount of damage and clean up leftover units. This is balanced. You are right that the Terran has to balance the Viking count "fairly well". It is also true that the Protoss has to balance the Colossus count fairly well. If the Protoss overproduces Colossi, then the Terran will have enough Vikings to kill all the Colossi and leave the Protoss with no AOE. This happens in a fair number of pro games. If it did not happen, then Protoss would never have to transition out of Colossi. You are coming into this with an astonishingly biased perspective that fails to realize that the Viking already has a fantastic safety net compared to really any other air to air dedicated unit, along with being incredibly effective and cost-efficient. When a Zerg player makes Corruptors, there is not this safety net. When a Protoss makes Phoenix, there is not this safety net. Only Terran gets this generous offer, and you ask for more. That is not reasonable. That is essentially a balance whine. I can't believe it, of all the units in the Terran race you choose the Viking to complain about. What's next? Is the Marine too weak to AOE? It's just not RIGHT for units to be good against everything! Vikings pretty much hard counter Carriers too with micro. Morrow was doing a unit test earlier in his stream with full upgrades. I think it was 60 Supply each. If it's a-move vs. a-move, Carriers win handily 70% remain. If Vikings stutter step at max range for powerful bursts, Vikings win handily 70% remain. As of right now, Protoss has no answer to mass Vikings and they never really did, which is exactly why Protoss air is never seen in PvT. Carriers need their BW micro to compete, because Interceptors leash too stupidly to be able to have some micro against Viking micro. The only issue I see with Terran air is their lack of dealing with Zerg tech switches from BL to Ultra. How about an anti-Ultra ability that doesn't upset PvT balance? If Grounded Vikings are the primary target of splash attacks (Ultra cleave), make it so all the splash is absorbed by their new ability "Flanking Armor." I hardly think Seige Tanks and Colossus will care one bit, but it might work well against Ultras that rely on their huge splash range. This is an artificial situation which will never happen in a real game. In reality the carrier is really good vs mech. While you kite the Vikings there is ample time for the carriers to do damage to the mech ground army. The only unit that really deals well with carriers is actually the marine. A bunch of stimmed marines will kill all the interceptors in 3 seconds. The reason you never see carriers in TvP is the marine - not the viking.
It depends on how you play mech
If you play the Lyyna bansheeheavy mechstyle, the moment he goes Carrier, you go BC and it's gg for him 
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On September 27 2012 20:00 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 19:58 Tppz! wrote:On September 27 2012 19:33 Cloak wrote:On September 27 2012 19:26 one-one-one wrote:On September 27 2012 19:20 Cloak wrote:On September 27 2012 19:02 Acritter wrote:On September 27 2012 18:44 one-one-one wrote:On September 27 2012 15:11 Kharnage wrote:On September 27 2012 15:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Yes, it costs 3x the cost of marines discounting gas, but does two times their unstimmed dps landed and +1 range?
They are expensive, I agree a minor buff such as attack while moving could help them as meat shields for tanks or thors. BUT THEY FLY!!!!!OMFG stop overlooking the fundamental issue that the viking is the CHEAPEST FLYING UNIT IN THE GAME! With no assault mode at all it would be a well balanced, well priced unit. This retarded shit is like complaining that maruaders are cheaper than stalkers. Stalkers can shoot UP. That matters a LOT. Phoenix cost 150/100 and can only lift a unit when they have the energy, cannot harm buildings and cannot harm massive units, but that's ok because they FUCKING FLY!!!! When will you idiots stop pretending that vikings CAN'T fly so that you can ask for a buff to their ground mode. "Herp derp, but if you pretend that vikings can't fly then they are SUPER expensive and even cost GAS!!" You can't separate between a unit that is decent vs ground and a unit that hard counters ground. The current situation is that the terran has to balance the number of vikings fairly well to deal with colossus or just outright die. Right now vikings in ground mode have very little utility. They basically only work as adding insult to injury in an already won game or a last-resort panic unit which makes you pray that it was a marauder. Vikings wont start owning shit on the ground just because you buff them slightly. Don't you understand this? Marauders don't hard counter ground. Marauders hard counter Stalkers, Roaches, unsieged Tanks, Thors, and things that are trying to hit Light units for a lot of damage. Vikings hard counter many things in the air. They hard counter Brood Lords, Void Rays, Battlecruisers, Banshees, and Motherships. They shut down all kinds of dropships. They trade suitably with Phoenix, Corruptors, and Carriers. I don't need to mention the Colossus. They are also decent on the ground. They trade suitably with Stalkers and Hydralisks. They can be used to buffer a fair amount of damage and clean up leftover units. This is balanced. You are right that the Terran has to balance the Viking count "fairly well". It is also true that the Protoss has to balance the Colossus count fairly well. If the Protoss overproduces Colossi, then the Terran will have enough Vikings to kill all the Colossi and leave the Protoss with no AOE. This happens in a fair number of pro games. If it did not happen, then Protoss would never have to transition out of Colossi. You are coming into this with an astonishingly biased perspective that fails to realize that the Viking already has a fantastic safety net compared to really any other air to air dedicated unit, along with being incredibly effective and cost-efficient. When a Zerg player makes Corruptors, there is not this safety net. When a Protoss makes Phoenix, there is not this safety net. Only Terran gets this generous offer, and you ask for more. That is not reasonable. That is essentially a balance whine. I can't believe it, of all the units in the Terran race you choose the Viking to complain about. What's next? Is the Marine too weak to AOE? It's just not RIGHT for units to be good against everything! Vikings pretty much hard counter Carriers too with micro. Morrow was doing a unit test earlier in his stream with full upgrades. I think it was 60 Supply each. If it's a-move vs. a-move, Carriers win handily 70% remain. If Vikings stutter step at max range for powerful bursts, Vikings win handily 70% remain. As of right now, Protoss has no answer to mass Vikings and they never really did, which is exactly why Protoss air is never seen in PvT. Carriers need their BW micro to compete, because Interceptors leash too stupidly to be able to have some micro against Viking micro. The only issue I see with Terran air is their lack of dealing with Zerg tech switches from BL to Ultra. How about an anti-Ultra ability that doesn't upset PvT balance? If Grounded Vikings are the primary target of splash attacks (Ultra cleave), make it so all the splash is absorbed by their new ability "Flanking Armor." I hardly think Seige Tanks and Colossus will care one bit, but it might work well against Ultras that rely on their huge splash range. This is an artificial situation which will never happen in a real game. In reality the carrier is really good vs mech. While you kite the Vikings there is ample time for the carriers to do damage to the mech ground army. The only unit that really deals well with carriers is actually the marine. A bunch of stimmed marines will kill all the interceptors in 3 seconds. The reason you never see carriers in TvP is the marine - not the viking. It's both, honestly. And because we're talking about Mech, Marines are a nonissue. Since Carriers are slower and more cumbersome, there's no way to gain a micro advantage over the Vikings. They will always be kited. It's like a Roach kiting a legless Zealot. There's nothing the Zealot can do except a-move and pray it can catch up. If he runs, he'll be kited. If he pursues he will be kited. Refocusing the Carriers on the ground fight will only guarantee a loss of all your Carriers. you are terribly wrong. Vikings arent good vs Carriers if you dont have a lot more than # of carriers. When you attack with 9 range vikings you have to stop for a moment. in that time the carrier will get in his 8 range and lunch the interceptors. the interceptors give you 6 more range. they will fight against the vikings until they are out of the 14 range. then you can start attacking again with vikings but you already lost a (huge) amount of vikings in that first "fight". tldr: if you have like 6 carriers your vikings will melt. Thors dont help and turrets may be the only help when going mech. 5 widow mines under the vikings = all interceptors dead ^^
You know that Widow Mines dont attack "spawned units"? You know that they do friendly fire? and what if protoss has detection?
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they should work like mecha-tengus in RA3, fast transformation with a CD
most of the viking usualy die before they can switch form cause it takes so long
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On September 27 2012 20:27 Tppz! wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 20:00 Decendos wrote:On September 27 2012 19:58 Tppz! wrote:On September 27 2012 19:33 Cloak wrote:On September 27 2012 19:26 one-one-one wrote:On September 27 2012 19:20 Cloak wrote:On September 27 2012 19:02 Acritter wrote:On September 27 2012 18:44 one-one-one wrote:On September 27 2012 15:11 Kharnage wrote:On September 27 2012 15:04 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:
Yes, it costs 3x the cost of marines discounting gas, but does two times their unstimmed dps landed and +1 range?
They are expensive, I agree a minor buff such as attack while moving could help them as meat shields for tanks or thors. BUT THEY FLY!!!!!OMFG stop overlooking the fundamental issue that the viking is the CHEAPEST FLYING UNIT IN THE GAME! With no assault mode at all it would be a well balanced, well priced unit. This retarded shit is like complaining that maruaders are cheaper than stalkers. Stalkers can shoot UP. That matters a LOT. Phoenix cost 150/100 and can only lift a unit when they have the energy, cannot harm buildings and cannot harm massive units, but that's ok because they FUCKING FLY!!!! When will you idiots stop pretending that vikings CAN'T fly so that you can ask for a buff to their ground mode. "Herp derp, but if you pretend that vikings can't fly then they are SUPER expensive and even cost GAS!!" You can't separate between a unit that is decent vs ground and a unit that hard counters ground. The current situation is that the terran has to balance the number of vikings fairly well to deal with colossus or just outright die. Right now vikings in ground mode have very little utility. They basically only work as adding insult to injury in an already won game or a last-resort panic unit which makes you pray that it was a marauder. Vikings wont start owning shit on the ground just because you buff them slightly. Don't you understand this? Marauders don't hard counter ground. Marauders hard counter Stalkers, Roaches, unsieged Tanks, Thors, and things that are trying to hit Light units for a lot of damage. Vikings hard counter many things in the air. They hard counter Brood Lords, Void Rays, Battlecruisers, Banshees, and Motherships. They shut down all kinds of dropships. They trade suitably with Phoenix, Corruptors, and Carriers. I don't need to mention the Colossus. They are also decent on the ground. They trade suitably with Stalkers and Hydralisks. They can be used to buffer a fair amount of damage and clean up leftover units. This is balanced. You are right that the Terran has to balance the Viking count "fairly well". It is also true that the Protoss has to balance the Colossus count fairly well. If the Protoss overproduces Colossi, then the Terran will have enough Vikings to kill all the Colossi and leave the Protoss with no AOE. This happens in a fair number of pro games. If it did not happen, then Protoss would never have to transition out of Colossi. You are coming into this with an astonishingly biased perspective that fails to realize that the Viking already has a fantastic safety net compared to really any other air to air dedicated unit, along with being incredibly effective and cost-efficient. When a Zerg player makes Corruptors, there is not this safety net. When a Protoss makes Phoenix, there is not this safety net. Only Terran gets this generous offer, and you ask for more. That is not reasonable. That is essentially a balance whine. I can't believe it, of all the units in the Terran race you choose the Viking to complain about. What's next? Is the Marine too weak to AOE? It's just not RIGHT for units to be good against everything! Vikings pretty much hard counter Carriers too with micro. Morrow was doing a unit test earlier in his stream with full upgrades. I think it was 60 Supply each. If it's a-move vs. a-move, Carriers win handily 70% remain. If Vikings stutter step at max range for powerful bursts, Vikings win handily 70% remain. As of right now, Protoss has no answer to mass Vikings and they never really did, which is exactly why Protoss air is never seen in PvT. Carriers need their BW micro to compete, because Interceptors leash too stupidly to be able to have some micro against Viking micro. The only issue I see with Terran air is their lack of dealing with Zerg tech switches from BL to Ultra. How about an anti-Ultra ability that doesn't upset PvT balance? If Grounded Vikings are the primary target of splash attacks (Ultra cleave), make it so all the splash is absorbed by their new ability "Flanking Armor." I hardly think Seige Tanks and Colossus will care one bit, but it might work well against Ultras that rely on their huge splash range. This is an artificial situation which will never happen in a real game. In reality the carrier is really good vs mech. While you kite the Vikings there is ample time for the carriers to do damage to the mech ground army. The only unit that really deals well with carriers is actually the marine. A bunch of stimmed marines will kill all the interceptors in 3 seconds. The reason you never see carriers in TvP is the marine - not the viking. It's both, honestly. And because we're talking about Mech, Marines are a nonissue. Since Carriers are slower and more cumbersome, there's no way to gain a micro advantage over the Vikings. They will always be kited. It's like a Roach kiting a legless Zealot. There's nothing the Zealot can do except a-move and pray it can catch up. If he runs, he'll be kited. If he pursues he will be kited. Refocusing the Carriers on the ground fight will only guarantee a loss of all your Carriers. you are terribly wrong. Vikings arent good vs Carriers if you dont have a lot more than # of carriers. When you attack with 9 range vikings you have to stop for a moment. in that time the carrier will get in his 8 range and lunch the interceptors. the interceptors give you 6 more range. they will fight against the vikings until they are out of the 14 range. then you can start attacking again with vikings but you already lost a (huge) amount of vikings in that first "fight". tldr: if you have like 6 carriers your vikings will melt. Thors dont help and turrets may be the only help when going mech. 5 widow mines under the vikings = all interceptors dead ^^ You know that Widow Mines dont attack "spawned units"? You know that they do friendly fire? and what if protoss has detection?
they dont automatically attack spawned units! turn off autoattack and manually attack interceptors. that works?! (dont have beta so somebody needs to confirm that).
split vikings and you will friendly fire some but kill lots of interceptors. more micro = good thing.
detection = 1 scan away with mass vikings ^^
carriers will hopefully be viable vs mech and no they wont be OP. thor + vikings + BCs + ravens + widow mines will do fine.
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On September 27 2012 20:34 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 20:27 Tppz! wrote:On September 27 2012 20:00 Decendos wrote:On September 27 2012 19:58 Tppz! wrote:On September 27 2012 19:33 Cloak wrote:On September 27 2012 19:26 one-one-one wrote:On September 27 2012 19:20 Cloak wrote:On September 27 2012 19:02 Acritter wrote:On September 27 2012 18:44 one-one-one wrote:On September 27 2012 15:11 Kharnage wrote:
[quote]
BUT THEY FLY!!!!!
OMFG stop overlooking the fundamental issue that the viking is the CHEAPEST FLYING UNIT IN THE GAME!
With no assault mode at all it would be a well balanced, well priced unit.
This retarded shit is like complaining that maruaders are cheaper than stalkers. Stalkers can shoot UP. That matters a LOT.
Phoenix cost 150/100 and can only lift a unit when they have the energy, cannot harm buildings and cannot harm massive units, but that's ok because they FUCKING FLY!!!!
When will you idiots stop pretending that vikings CAN'T fly so that you can ask for a buff to their ground mode.
"Herp derp, but if you pretend that vikings can't fly then they are SUPER expensive and even cost GAS!!" You can't separate between a unit that is decent vs ground and a unit that hard counters ground. The current situation is that the terran has to balance the number of vikings fairly well to deal with colossus or just outright die. Right now vikings in ground mode have very little utility. They basically only work as adding insult to injury in an already won game or a last-resort panic unit which makes you pray that it was a marauder. Vikings wont start owning shit on the ground just because you buff them slightly. Don't you understand this? Marauders don't hard counter ground. Marauders hard counter Stalkers, Roaches, unsieged Tanks, Thors, and things that are trying to hit Light units for a lot of damage. Vikings hard counter many things in the air. They hard counter Brood Lords, Void Rays, Battlecruisers, Banshees, and Motherships. They shut down all kinds of dropships. They trade suitably with Phoenix, Corruptors, and Carriers. I don't need to mention the Colossus. They are also decent on the ground. They trade suitably with Stalkers and Hydralisks. They can be used to buffer a fair amount of damage and clean up leftover units. This is balanced. You are right that the Terran has to balance the Viking count "fairly well". It is also true that the Protoss has to balance the Colossus count fairly well. If the Protoss overproduces Colossi, then the Terran will have enough Vikings to kill all the Colossi and leave the Protoss with no AOE. This happens in a fair number of pro games. If it did not happen, then Protoss would never have to transition out of Colossi. You are coming into this with an astonishingly biased perspective that fails to realize that the Viking already has a fantastic safety net compared to really any other air to air dedicated unit, along with being incredibly effective and cost-efficient. When a Zerg player makes Corruptors, there is not this safety net. When a Protoss makes Phoenix, there is not this safety net. Only Terran gets this generous offer, and you ask for more. That is not reasonable. That is essentially a balance whine. I can't believe it, of all the units in the Terran race you choose the Viking to complain about. What's next? Is the Marine too weak to AOE? It's just not RIGHT for units to be good against everything! Vikings pretty much hard counter Carriers too with micro. Morrow was doing a unit test earlier in his stream with full upgrades. I think it was 60 Supply each. If it's a-move vs. a-move, Carriers win handily 70% remain. If Vikings stutter step at max range for powerful bursts, Vikings win handily 70% remain. As of right now, Protoss has no answer to mass Vikings and they never really did, which is exactly why Protoss air is never seen in PvT. Carriers need their BW micro to compete, because Interceptors leash too stupidly to be able to have some micro against Viking micro. The only issue I see with Terran air is their lack of dealing with Zerg tech switches from BL to Ultra. How about an anti-Ultra ability that doesn't upset PvT balance? If Grounded Vikings are the primary target of splash attacks (Ultra cleave), make it so all the splash is absorbed by their new ability "Flanking Armor." I hardly think Seige Tanks and Colossus will care one bit, but it might work well against Ultras that rely on their huge splash range. This is an artificial situation which will never happen in a real game. In reality the carrier is really good vs mech. While you kite the Vikings there is ample time for the carriers to do damage to the mech ground army. The only unit that really deals well with carriers is actually the marine. A bunch of stimmed marines will kill all the interceptors in 3 seconds. The reason you never see carriers in TvP is the marine - not the viking. It's both, honestly. And because we're talking about Mech, Marines are a nonissue. Since Carriers are slower and more cumbersome, there's no way to gain a micro advantage over the Vikings. They will always be kited. It's like a Roach kiting a legless Zealot. There's nothing the Zealot can do except a-move and pray it can catch up. If he runs, he'll be kited. If he pursues he will be kited. Refocusing the Carriers on the ground fight will only guarantee a loss of all your Carriers. you are terribly wrong. Vikings arent good vs Carriers if you dont have a lot more than # of carriers. When you attack with 9 range vikings you have to stop for a moment. in that time the carrier will get in his 8 range and lunch the interceptors. the interceptors give you 6 more range. they will fight against the vikings until they are out of the 14 range. then you can start attacking again with vikings but you already lost a (huge) amount of vikings in that first "fight". tldr: if you have like 6 carriers your vikings will melt. Thors dont help and turrets may be the only help when going mech. 5 widow mines under the vikings = all interceptors dead ^^ You know that Widow Mines dont attack "spawned units"? You know that they do friendly fire? and what if protoss has detection? they dont automatically attack spawned units! turn off autoattack and manually attack interceptors. that works?! (dont have beta so somebody needs to confirm that). split vikings and you will friendly fire some but kill lots of interceptors. more micro = good thing. detection = 1 scan away with mass vikings ^^ carriers will hopefully be viable vs mech and no they wont be OP. thor + vikings + BCs + ravens + widow mines will do fine.
Thors, vikings and ravens are bad vs carriers. especially thors dont. i play beta. i tried to fight carriers with thor vikings turrets and it didnt work.
you cant attack interceptors with mines because you cant target interceptors in SC2. You should know that if you played SC2.
adn scanning doesnt help you when its hidden or you dont hit the right spot.
im sorry to say it but you dont have an idea what you are takling about 
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On September 27 2012 20:43 Tppz! wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 20:34 Decendos wrote:On September 27 2012 20:27 Tppz! wrote:On September 27 2012 20:00 Decendos wrote:On September 27 2012 19:58 Tppz! wrote:On September 27 2012 19:33 Cloak wrote:On September 27 2012 19:26 one-one-one wrote:On September 27 2012 19:20 Cloak wrote:On September 27 2012 19:02 Acritter wrote:On September 27 2012 18:44 one-one-one wrote:
[quote]
You can't separate between a unit that is decent vs ground and a unit that hard counters ground.
The current situation is that the terran has to balance the number of vikings fairly well to deal with colossus or just outright die.
Right now vikings in ground mode have very little utility. They basically only work as adding insult to injury in an already won game or a last-resort panic unit which makes you pray that it was a marauder.
Vikings wont start owning shit on the ground just because you buff them slightly. Don't you understand this? Marauders don't hard counter ground. Marauders hard counter Stalkers, Roaches, unsieged Tanks, Thors, and things that are trying to hit Light units for a lot of damage. Vikings hard counter many things in the air. They hard counter Brood Lords, Void Rays, Battlecruisers, Banshees, and Motherships. They shut down all kinds of dropships. They trade suitably with Phoenix, Corruptors, and Carriers. I don't need to mention the Colossus. They are also decent on the ground. They trade suitably with Stalkers and Hydralisks. They can be used to buffer a fair amount of damage and clean up leftover units. This is balanced. You are right that the Terran has to balance the Viking count "fairly well". It is also true that the Protoss has to balance the Colossus count fairly well. If the Protoss overproduces Colossi, then the Terran will have enough Vikings to kill all the Colossi and leave the Protoss with no AOE. This happens in a fair number of pro games. If it did not happen, then Protoss would never have to transition out of Colossi. You are coming into this with an astonishingly biased perspective that fails to realize that the Viking already has a fantastic safety net compared to really any other air to air dedicated unit, along with being incredibly effective and cost-efficient. When a Zerg player makes Corruptors, there is not this safety net. When a Protoss makes Phoenix, there is not this safety net. Only Terran gets this generous offer, and you ask for more. That is not reasonable. That is essentially a balance whine. I can't believe it, of all the units in the Terran race you choose the Viking to complain about. What's next? Is the Marine too weak to AOE? It's just not RIGHT for units to be good against everything! Vikings pretty much hard counter Carriers too with micro. Morrow was doing a unit test earlier in his stream with full upgrades. I think it was 60 Supply each. If it's a-move vs. a-move, Carriers win handily 70% remain. If Vikings stutter step at max range for powerful bursts, Vikings win handily 70% remain. As of right now, Protoss has no answer to mass Vikings and they never really did, which is exactly why Protoss air is never seen in PvT. Carriers need their BW micro to compete, because Interceptors leash too stupidly to be able to have some micro against Viking micro. The only issue I see with Terran air is their lack of dealing with Zerg tech switches from BL to Ultra. How about an anti-Ultra ability that doesn't upset PvT balance? If Grounded Vikings are the primary target of splash attacks (Ultra cleave), make it so all the splash is absorbed by their new ability "Flanking Armor." I hardly think Seige Tanks and Colossus will care one bit, but it might work well against Ultras that rely on their huge splash range. This is an artificial situation which will never happen in a real game. In reality the carrier is really good vs mech. While you kite the Vikings there is ample time for the carriers to do damage to the mech ground army. The only unit that really deals well with carriers is actually the marine. A bunch of stimmed marines will kill all the interceptors in 3 seconds. The reason you never see carriers in TvP is the marine - not the viking. It's both, honestly. And because we're talking about Mech, Marines are a nonissue. Since Carriers are slower and more cumbersome, there's no way to gain a micro advantage over the Vikings. They will always be kited. It's like a Roach kiting a legless Zealot. There's nothing the Zealot can do except a-move and pray it can catch up. If he runs, he'll be kited. If he pursues he will be kited. Refocusing the Carriers on the ground fight will only guarantee a loss of all your Carriers. you are terribly wrong. Vikings arent good vs Carriers if you dont have a lot more than # of carriers. When you attack with 9 range vikings you have to stop for a moment. in that time the carrier will get in his 8 range and lunch the interceptors. the interceptors give you 6 more range. they will fight against the vikings until they are out of the 14 range. then you can start attacking again with vikings but you already lost a (huge) amount of vikings in that first "fight". tldr: if you have like 6 carriers your vikings will melt. Thors dont help and turrets may be the only help when going mech. 5 widow mines under the vikings = all interceptors dead ^^ You know that Widow Mines dont attack "spawned units"? You know that they do friendly fire? and what if protoss has detection? they dont automatically attack spawned units! turn off autoattack and manually attack interceptors. that works?! (dont have beta so somebody needs to confirm that). split vikings and you will friendly fire some but kill lots of interceptors. more micro = good thing. detection = 1 scan away with mass vikings ^^ carriers will hopefully be viable vs mech and no they wont be OP. thor + vikings + BCs + ravens + widow mines will do fine. Thors, vikings and ravens are bad vs carriers. especially thors dont. i play beta. i tried to fight carriers with thor vikings turrets and it didnt work. you cant attack interceptors with mines because you cant target interceptors in SC2. You should know that if you played SC2. adn scanning doesnt help you when its hidden or you dont hit the right spot. im sorry to say it but you dont have an idea what you are takling about
that is just outright wrong. you can target interceptors in sc2. you cant click on them but you can target them. fungal for example hits interceptors so i think HSM and widow mines and storm will also hit them.
so it seems like you have no idea what you are talking about. stop insulting people that are right...
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On September 27 2012 21:00 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 20:43 Tppz! wrote:On September 27 2012 20:34 Decendos wrote:On September 27 2012 20:27 Tppz! wrote:On September 27 2012 20:00 Decendos wrote:On September 27 2012 19:58 Tppz! wrote:On September 27 2012 19:33 Cloak wrote:On September 27 2012 19:26 one-one-one wrote:On September 27 2012 19:20 Cloak wrote:On September 27 2012 19:02 Acritter wrote:
[quote]
Marauders don't hard counter ground. Marauders hard counter Stalkers, Roaches, unsieged Tanks, Thors, and things that are trying to hit Light units for a lot of damage. Vikings hard counter many things in the air. They hard counter Brood Lords, Void Rays, Battlecruisers, Banshees, and Motherships. They shut down all kinds of dropships. They trade suitably with Phoenix, Corruptors, and Carriers. I don't need to mention the Colossus. They are also decent on the ground. They trade suitably with Stalkers and Hydralisks. They can be used to buffer a fair amount of damage and clean up leftover units. This is balanced. You are right that the Terran has to balance the Viking count "fairly well". It is also true that the Protoss has to balance the Colossus count fairly well. If the Protoss overproduces Colossi, then the Terran will have enough Vikings to kill all the Colossi and leave the Protoss with no AOE. This happens in a fair number of pro games. If it did not happen, then Protoss would never have to transition out of Colossi. You are coming into this with an astonishingly biased perspective that fails to realize that the Viking already has a fantastic safety net compared to really any other air to air dedicated unit, along with being incredibly effective and cost-efficient. When a Zerg player makes Corruptors, there is not this safety net. When a Protoss makes Phoenix, there is not this safety net. Only Terran gets this generous offer, and you ask for more. That is not reasonable. That is essentially a balance whine.
I can't believe it, of all the units in the Terran race you choose the Viking to complain about. What's next? Is the Marine too weak to AOE? It's just not RIGHT for units to be good against everything! Vikings pretty much hard counter Carriers too with micro. Morrow was doing a unit test earlier in his stream with full upgrades. I think it was 60 Supply each. If it's a-move vs. a-move, Carriers win handily 70% remain. If Vikings stutter step at max range for powerful bursts, Vikings win handily 70% remain. As of right now, Protoss has no answer to mass Vikings and they never really did, which is exactly why Protoss air is never seen in PvT. Carriers need their BW micro to compete, because Interceptors leash too stupidly to be able to have some micro against Viking micro. The only issue I see with Terran air is their lack of dealing with Zerg tech switches from BL to Ultra. How about an anti-Ultra ability that doesn't upset PvT balance? If Grounded Vikings are the primary target of splash attacks (Ultra cleave), make it so all the splash is absorbed by their new ability "Flanking Armor." I hardly think Seige Tanks and Colossus will care one bit, but it might work well against Ultras that rely on their huge splash range. This is an artificial situation which will never happen in a real game. In reality the carrier is really good vs mech. While you kite the Vikings there is ample time for the carriers to do damage to the mech ground army. The only unit that really deals well with carriers is actually the marine. A bunch of stimmed marines will kill all the interceptors in 3 seconds. The reason you never see carriers in TvP is the marine - not the viking. It's both, honestly. And because we're talking about Mech, Marines are a nonissue. Since Carriers are slower and more cumbersome, there's no way to gain a micro advantage over the Vikings. They will always be kited. It's like a Roach kiting a legless Zealot. There's nothing the Zealot can do except a-move and pray it can catch up. If he runs, he'll be kited. If he pursues he will be kited. Refocusing the Carriers on the ground fight will only guarantee a loss of all your Carriers. you are terribly wrong. Vikings arent good vs Carriers if you dont have a lot more than # of carriers. When you attack with 9 range vikings you have to stop for a moment. in that time the carrier will get in his 8 range and lunch the interceptors. the interceptors give you 6 more range. they will fight against the vikings until they are out of the 14 range. then you can start attacking again with vikings but you already lost a (huge) amount of vikings in that first "fight". tldr: if you have like 6 carriers your vikings will melt. Thors dont help and turrets may be the only help when going mech. 5 widow mines under the vikings = all interceptors dead ^^ You know that Widow Mines dont attack "spawned units"? You know that they do friendly fire? and what if protoss has detection? they dont automatically attack spawned units! turn off autoattack and manually attack interceptors. that works?! (dont have beta so somebody needs to confirm that). split vikings and you will friendly fire some but kill lots of interceptors. more micro = good thing. detection = 1 scan away with mass vikings ^^ carriers will hopefully be viable vs mech and no they wont be OP. thor + vikings + BCs + ravens + widow mines will do fine. Thors, vikings and ravens are bad vs carriers. especially thors dont. i play beta. i tried to fight carriers with thor vikings turrets and it didnt work. you cant attack interceptors with mines because you cant target interceptors in SC2. You should know that if you played SC2. adn scanning doesnt help you when its hidden or you dont hit the right spot. im sorry to say it but you dont have an idea what you are takling about that is just outright wrong. you can target interceptors in sc2. you cant click on them but you can target them. fungal for example hits interceptors so i think HSM and widow mines and storm will also hit them. so it seems like you have no idea what you are talking about. stop insulting people that are right...
to be correct. You can't target interceptors with storm or fungal, but you can target the area where they are. With widow mines you have to target the unit, which you can't if it is not clickable. Of course you can do cutsie moves like target something (maybe even another widow mine) that is around the interceptors, yet I'm not sure how efficient that really is.
Yet I have to disagree that Vikings are "bad" vs Carriers. They win in the low amounts and lose in the high amounts. They should at least buy you enough time to get out BCs or widow mines unless a Protoss manages to surprise you with 6+ Carriers - at which point you SHOULD lose. There really shouldn't be a composition that can overcome a huge surprise techswitch without preparedness. I know there are such for each race, but that's not how the game should be - though it is kind of needed to be in the game vs medium Zerg switches.
Also turrets are really good vs Carriers.
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You cant use the mines against interceptors.
Interceptors are realy spread out,i dont see a mine working in this situation at all, the idea alone just seems silly tbh.
Then again, i dont have beta lol so what do i know.However, I did never see morrow use mines against interceptors and he uses mines alot , it just seems not practical at all.
Turrets are verry good though against interceptors i have to admit, and a big amount of turrets with building armour is verry difficult to deal with for carriers, it also safes your army as the interceptors will first target the turrets because they are the ones firing at them, and with building armour turrets are verry durable against interceptor 2x5 attack.
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Carriers are actually very good against Vikings considering that they also rape everything else a Mech-ing terran has.
You cannot kite carriers with Vikings because there is only a 1 range difference and vikings need to decelerate stop, reverse, and accelerate for each shot and interceptors have an extra 6 range (14 range) once released.
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EPT
