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On September 26 2012 05:18 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 05:01 Big J wrote:On September 26 2012 03:31 Decendos wrote:On September 26 2012 03:16 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote:
I think a lot of people are missing the main point. the point is vikings have ground mode now... and why do they have ground mode now? they don't really serve any purpose in ground mode at the moment so why does it even exist... i'd rather have a corruption ability or a graviton beam like the other air to air's than a pointless ground mode... make it worth while to go ground mode... give it some purpose, or just scrap it completely instead of leaving it in as a pointless ability.
edit: and while i'm on pointles abilities blizzard for the love of god can you PLEASE do somethign with the thor's 250mm cannon strike, can we please get an ability that is seen in more than 1-2% of games played on b.net and tournaments... please? they have 12 dps and beat a hydra...seems like their ground attack is superstrong already....it just doesnt beat everything lol. yeah, because they are even stronger than the mighty, scary hydralisk supply for supply  well they are doing decent vs every other unit in supply. they kill supply to supply 50-80% of the hp of ultras, stalker, zealot, immortal, colossus, DTs and win vs roaches, hydras and sentries. so yeah they ARE already very decent and what else then 50-120% of hp removal VS GROUND UNITS (!!!) do you want?! some people just want an easy game with alround units that can do everything. buff thor and T can build thor only lol. no vikings needed :-P seems like some people want that kind of easy game...
You have no idea why people have issues with Vikings and Thors.
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On September 26 2012 05:16 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 05:11 Big J wrote:On September 26 2012 05:07 SupLilSon wrote:On September 26 2012 04:48 Acritter wrote:On September 26 2012 03:16 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote:
I think a lot of people are missing the main point. the point is vikings have ground mode now... and why do they have ground mode now? they don't really serve any purpose in ground mode at the moment so why does it even exist... i'd rather have a corruption ability or a graviton beam like the other air to air's than a pointless ground mode... make it worth while to go ground mode... give it some purpose, or just scrap it completely instead of leaving it in as a pointless ability.
edit: and while i'm on pointles abilities blizzard for the love of god can you PLEASE do somethign with the thor's 250mm cannon strike, can we please get an ability that is seen in more than 1-2% of games played on b.net and tournaments... please? It already DOES have a purpose: it lets Terran players overproduce Vikings to quickly shut down Colossi, and then use Ground Mode to let those Vikings tank for the Marines. And this is the wrong thread for discussing Strike Cannons, but I already discussed it here. You're kidding right? 90% of the time you overproduce Vikings you're screwed... Vikings are laughable on the ground against Protoss welcome to the world of non-barracks singlefire units in SC2 Huh?
every singlefire unit in the game apart from marines and marauders suck vs Protoss. Every ground singlefire unit that is (air units are pretty good).
Though if you have something like 33% extra income over Protoss and can produce 40 units per minute, you can get something done 
On September 26 2012 05:18 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 05:01 Big J wrote:On September 26 2012 03:31 Decendos wrote:On September 26 2012 03:16 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote:
I think a lot of people are missing the main point. the point is vikings have ground mode now... and why do they have ground mode now? they don't really serve any purpose in ground mode at the moment so why does it even exist... i'd rather have a corruption ability or a graviton beam like the other air to air's than a pointless ground mode... make it worth while to go ground mode... give it some purpose, or just scrap it completely instead of leaving it in as a pointless ability.
edit: and while i'm on pointles abilities blizzard for the love of god can you PLEASE do somethign with the thor's 250mm cannon strike, can we please get an ability that is seen in more than 1-2% of games played on b.net and tournaments... please? they have 12 dps and beat a hydra...seems like their ground attack is superstrong already....it just doesnt beat everything lol. yeah, because they are even stronger than the mighty, scary hydralisk supply for supply well they are doing decent vs every other unit in supply. they kill supply to supply 50-80% of the hp of ultras, stalker, zealot, immortal, colossus, DTs and win vs roaches, hydras and sentries. so yeah they ARE already very decent and what else then 50-120% of hp removal VS GROUND UNITS (!!!) do you want?! some people just want an easy game with alround units that can do everything. buff thor and T can build thor only lol. no vikings needed :-P seems like some people want that kind of easy game...
Well, I don't disagree with you. Just saying that using hydralisks as under limit is kind of useless.
Though I believe that vikings should land (and maybe lift) faster, as it really takes a long time to actually get them to start shooting, while they still are being shot from air! (also I strongly believe that units should react nearly instantly if you order them something. There is nothing more annoying and skilllimiting, then waiting for your micro to happen)
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On September 26 2012 05:20 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 05:18 Decendos wrote:On September 26 2012 05:01 Big J wrote:On September 26 2012 03:31 Decendos wrote:On September 26 2012 03:16 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote:
I think a lot of people are missing the main point. the point is vikings have ground mode now... and why do they have ground mode now? they don't really serve any purpose in ground mode at the moment so why does it even exist... i'd rather have a corruption ability or a graviton beam like the other air to air's than a pointless ground mode... make it worth while to go ground mode... give it some purpose, or just scrap it completely instead of leaving it in as a pointless ability.
edit: and while i'm on pointles abilities blizzard for the love of god can you PLEASE do somethign with the thor's 250mm cannon strike, can we please get an ability that is seen in more than 1-2% of games played on b.net and tournaments... please? they have 12 dps and beat a hydra...seems like their ground attack is superstrong already....it just doesnt beat everything lol. yeah, because they are even stronger than the mighty, scary hydralisk supply for supply well they are doing decent vs every other unit in supply. they kill supply to supply 50-80% of the hp of ultras, stalker, zealot, immortal, colossus, DTs and win vs roaches, hydras and sentries. so yeah they ARE already very decent and what else then 50-120% of hp removal VS GROUND UNITS (!!!) do you want?! some people just want an easy game with alround units that can do everything. buff thor and T can build thor only lol. no vikings needed :-P seems like some people want that kind of easy game... You have no idea why people have issues with Vikings and Thors.
rofl thats why i said buff thors (remove energy bar and make it cooldown).
people dont have issues with vikings. some few people in this thread have. i havent heard ANY pro complaining about vikings and they complained about a lot of units like 5 rax reaper, BL infestor, immortal all in etc.
still heard no counterargument to my argument that they already "kill" 50-120% of hp supply to supply and with a buff will get better and therefore mass viking is not any more a decision since it then will be stupid NOT to build them. since that is NOT a strategy and sc2 is a strategy game that will be very bad design.
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Buffing the ground viking could cause a severe balance problem. Here's two frequent situations that gonna be damaged by this in PvT and ZvT:
1) Protoss makes colossi, you make vikings. Protoss switches to archons. You land vikings, and kill him easily.
2) Zerg makes broodlords, you make vikings. Zerg switches to ultralisks. You land vikings, and kill him easily.
The whole point of tech switches is to gain advantage in order to render the viking useless. The only role of ground mode right now is to be able to give a small buff to your army when the vikings becomes useless instead of having a unit flying around and doing nothing and that already is a significant advantage.
Imagine if vikings couldn't transform, he tech switches to archons and you have 15 vikings flying around and not helping your army at all but as I said, with transform it can still help you, maybe not cost effectively but at least keep you alive and make use of the resources you invested. Buffing the ground viking will make it overpowered.
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On September 26 2012 05:24 Adonminus wrote:
Buffing the ground viking could cause a severe balance problem. Here's two frequent situations that gonna be damaged by this in PvT and ZvT:
1) Protoss makes colossi, you make vikings. Protoss switches to archons. You land vikings, and kill him easily.
2) Zerg makes broodlords, you make vikings. Zerg switches to ultralisks. You land vikings, and kill him easily.
The whole point of tech switches is to gain advantage in order to render the viking useless. The only role of ground mode right now is to be able to give a small buff to your army when the vikings becomes useless instead of having a unit flying around and doing nothing and that already is a significant advantage.
Imagine if vikings couldn't transform, he tech switches to archons and you have 15 vikings flying around and not helping your army at all but as I said, with transform it can still help you, maybe not cost effectively but at least keep you alive and make use of the resources you invested. Buffing the ground viking will make it overpowered.
listen to this man!
its like building corruptors vs colossus and after they are killed toss reinforces with stalker and immortals and corruptors are dead supply. vikings can at least land and give a bonus to your ground army. please get that it is a bonus! and a really decent one!
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I am not saying make vikings brute killers that can tear through ultralisk and immortals, all they need is a SLIGHT buff:
1)like increase its ground attack range by 1 would be good enough.
2) the range can be decreased by 1 and the attack can be increased by 1 or 2, this will force the terran player to use his ground vikings in the front lines and risk loosing them while gambling for a stronger ground force.
3) the ground attack can do a bonus against LIGHT type units, so they are really good for worker harass and against marine/zealot/zerglings
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I'm still thinking vikings aren't used to full potential, like the when no air units remain. You can land vikings in mineral lines and harass there. Instead of asking for a buff (could lead to imbalance), or a very minor buff (which won't change anything in anyway) just learn to use them better. A good example is how all terrans whined the 5 range queen is imbalanced, now they changed how they play and can dominate zerg. Same can happen with vikings, just try it out.
On September 26 2012 05:33 sona wrote:
3) the ground attack can do a bonus against LIGHT type units, so they are really good for worker harass and against marine/zealot/zerglings
You're editing your message like mad. lol
Yeah, this could be nice, will let them survive those zealot warp ins when they do the harassing.
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On September 26 2012 05:24 Adonminus wrote:
2) Zerg makes broodlords, you make vikings. Zerg switches to ultralisks. You land vikings, and kill him easily.
Not if viking ground attack is two attacks! Ultra armor will lower the damage even more.
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On September 26 2012 05:54 LavaLava wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 05:24 Adonminus wrote:
2) Zerg makes broodlords, you make vikings. Zerg switches to ultralisks. You land vikings, and kill him easily.
Not if viking ground attack is two attacks! Ultra armor will lower the damage even more.
I might sound biased, but I am a fucking protoss player and I don't care. Where's my archon armor?
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On September 26 2012 05:24 Adonminus wrote:
Buffing the ground viking could cause a severe balance problem. Here's two frequent situations that gonna be damaged by this in PvT and ZvT:
1) Protoss makes colossi, you make vikings. Protoss switches to archons. You land vikings, and kill him easily.
2) Zerg makes broodlords, you make vikings. Zerg switches to ultralisks. You land vikings, and kill him easily.
The whole point of tech switches is to gain advantage in order to render the viking useless. The only role of ground mode right now is to be able to give a small buff to your army when the vikings becomes useless instead of having a unit flying around and doing nothing and that already is a significant advantage.
Imagine if vikings couldn't transform, he tech switches to archons and you have 15 vikings flying around and not helping your army at all but as I said, with transform it can still help you, maybe not cost effectively but at least keep you alive and make use of the resources you invested. Buffing the ground viking will make it overpowered.
It's like you're assuming that if they buff ground vikings at all that any buff will instantaneously make them OP and wreck everything thing on the ground and in the air. It's very possible that a buff is introduced that's balance them so that ground mode vikings are good without absolutely shitting on everything.
As for "tech switches are suppose to make units in your army useless", that's debatable, although i would personally argue that it's not really good game design to require hard counters that become useless when the thing they're hard countering stops being made. It turns the game in to more of a silly game of rock-paper scissors more than an actual strategy game.
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I don't get how anyone can say that Vikings are the best Air to Air unit. Vikings take FOREVER to land/take off. They are also one of the LOWEST HP units per cost, and one of the slowest air units in the game. This is why they are worse than worthless in harass.
Phoenixes are 2x the speed of a Viking and also beats a Viking 1on1. They are also far more useful for both scouting and harass due to their amazing speed, survivability, and not having to transform to attack ground.
Corruptors also kill vikings 1on1, build faster, move faster, and have way more HP. They also transform into BLs.
Making Vikings assault mode stronger will change NOTHING for balance in bio games. It will however, make mech more viable.
Viking ground mode should not be a throwaway "bonus", it should be a CHOICE. Hellions are good in car-mode, so do you need to have a super shitty Battle Mode to compensate? Vikings cost the same as a WARHOUND, but have 1/2 the hp, zero armor, nearly 1/2 the dps, less range, and walk slower. I don't see how a small buff could hurt anyone.
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On September 26 2012 05:58 kill619 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 05:24 Adonminus wrote:
Buffing the ground viking could cause a severe balance problem. Here's two frequent situations that gonna be damaged by this in PvT and ZvT:
1) Protoss makes colossi, you make vikings. Protoss switches to archons. You land vikings, and kill him easily.
2) Zerg makes broodlords, you make vikings. Zerg switches to ultralisks. You land vikings, and kill him easily.
The whole point of tech switches is to gain advantage in order to render the viking useless. The only role of ground mode right now is to be able to give a small buff to your army when the vikings becomes useless instead of having a unit flying around and doing nothing and that already is a significant advantage.
Imagine if vikings couldn't transform, he tech switches to archons and you have 15 vikings flying around and not helping your army at all but as I said, with transform it can still help you, maybe not cost effectively but at least keep you alive and make use of the resources you invested. Buffing the ground viking will make it overpowered. It's like you're assuming that if they buff ground vikings at all that any buff will instantaneously make them OP and wreck everything thing on the ground and in the air. It's very possible that a buff is introduced that's balance them so that ground mode vikings are good without absolutely shitting on everything. As for "tech switches are suppose to make units in your army useless", that's debatable, although i would personally argue that it's not really good game design to require hard counters that become useless when the thing they're hard countering stops being made. It turns the game in to more of a silly game of rock-paper scissors more than an actual strategy game.
They aren't completely useless since they can go ground mode and give you a small but not cost effective buff to the army. On the other hand bioball units are quite cost effective against gateway units so you need those splash late tier units to deal with them, and if vikings will trade equally with ground armies, it will neutralizing the advantage of tech switching, this will result into making the bioball armies too cost effective resulting in imbalance. That's why viking must be really bad against ground.
On September 26 2012 06:02 link0 wrote:
I don't get how anyone can say that Vikings are the best Air to Air unit. Vikings take FOREVER to land/take off. They are also one of the LOWEST HP units per cost, and one of the slowest air units in the game. This is why they are worse than worthless in harass.
Phoenixes are 2x the speed of a Viking and also beats a Viking 1on1. They are also far more useful for both scouting and harass due to their amazing speed, survivability, and not having to transform to attack ground.
Corruptors also kill vikings 1on1, build faster, move faster, and have way more HP. They also transform into BLs.
Making Vikings assault mode stronger will change NOTHING for balance in bio games. It will however, make mech more viable.
Viking ground mode should not be a throwaway "bonus", it should be a CHOICE. Hellions are good in car-mode, so do you need to have a super shitty Battle Mode to compensate? Vikings cost the same as a WARHOUND, but have 1/2 the hp, zero armor, nearly 1/2 the dps, less range, and walk slower. I don't see how a small buff could hurt anyone.
You're neglecting their huge range, allowing them to kite units and kill them before they reach the vikings. They are glass cannons just like most of terrans units, deal lots of damage but have low hp.
Then as I said it will influence bio, that's why we must search for an alternative solution to buffing mech. Plus it doesn't solve any of the meching issues. Mech has problems against certain timings in the early-mid game, and has problems due to their immobility. The slow speed of vikings won't help mech on the immobility part, and it comes from starport so won't help in early game. And in late game, as already proven, nothing can beat a mech army in a straight up combat so why buff it even more in where it's strong.
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On September 26 2012 06:05 Adonminus wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 05:58 kill619 wrote:On September 26 2012 05:24 Adonminus wrote:
Buffing the ground viking could cause a severe balance problem. Here's two frequent situations that gonna be damaged by this in PvT and ZvT:
1) Protoss makes colossi, you make vikings. Protoss switches to archons. You land vikings, and kill him easily.
2) Zerg makes broodlords, you make vikings. Zerg switches to ultralisks. You land vikings, and kill him easily.
The whole point of tech switches is to gain advantage in order to render the viking useless. The only role of ground mode right now is to be able to give a small buff to your army when the vikings becomes useless instead of having a unit flying around and doing nothing and that already is a significant advantage.
Imagine if vikings couldn't transform, he tech switches to archons and you have 15 vikings flying around and not helping your army at all but as I said, with transform it can still help you, maybe not cost effectively but at least keep you alive and make use of the resources you invested. Buffing the ground viking will make it overpowered. It's like you're assuming that if they buff ground vikings at all that any buff will instantaneously make them OP and wreck everything thing on the ground and in the air. It's very possible that a buff is introduced that's balance them so that ground mode vikings are good without absolutely shitting on everything. As for "tech switches are suppose to make units in your army useless", that's debatable, although i would personally argue that it's not really good game design to require hard counters that become useless when the thing they're hard countering stops being made. It turns the game in to more of a silly game of rock-paper scissors more than an actual strategy game. They aren't completely useless since they can go ground mode and give you a small but not cost effective buff to the army. On the other hand bioball units are quite cost effective against gateway units so you need those splash late tier units to deal with them, and if vikings will trade equally with ground armies, it will neutralizing the advantage of tech switching, this will result into making the bioball armies too cost effective resulting in imbalance. That's why viking must be really bad against ground.
A buffed viking will do almost nothing to the typical bio+viking play since vikings do not share bio upgrades and they have no synergy at all with bio in assault mode. Extra corruptors (BLs) or phoenixes (scout/harass) do not cripple you because they both have other uses.
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On September 26 2012 06:07 link0 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 06:05 Adonminus wrote:On September 26 2012 05:58 kill619 wrote:On September 26 2012 05:24 Adonminus wrote:
Buffing the ground viking could cause a severe balance problem. Here's two frequent situations that gonna be damaged by this in PvT and ZvT:
1) Protoss makes colossi, you make vikings. Protoss switches to archons. You land vikings, and kill him easily.
2) Zerg makes broodlords, you make vikings. Zerg switches to ultralisks. You land vikings, and kill him easily.
The whole point of tech switches is to gain advantage in order to render the viking useless. The only role of ground mode right now is to be able to give a small buff to your army when the vikings becomes useless instead of having a unit flying around and doing nothing and that already is a significant advantage.
Imagine if vikings couldn't transform, he tech switches to archons and you have 15 vikings flying around and not helping your army at all but as I said, with transform it can still help you, maybe not cost effectively but at least keep you alive and make use of the resources you invested. Buffing the ground viking will make it overpowered. It's like you're assuming that if they buff ground vikings at all that any buff will instantaneously make them OP and wreck everything thing on the ground and in the air. It's very possible that a buff is introduced that's balance them so that ground mode vikings are good without absolutely shitting on everything. As for "tech switches are suppose to make units in your army useless", that's debatable, although i would personally argue that it's not really good game design to require hard counters that become useless when the thing they're hard countering stops being made. It turns the game in to more of a silly game of rock-paper scissors more than an actual strategy game. They aren't completely useless since they can go ground mode and give you a small but not cost effective buff to the army. On the other hand bioball units are quite cost effective against gateway units so you need those splash late tier units to deal with them, and if vikings will trade equally with ground armies, it will neutralizing the advantage of tech switching, this will result into making the bioball armies too cost effective resulting in imbalance. That's why viking must be really bad against ground. A buffed viking will do almost nothing to the typical bio+viking play since vikings do not share bio upgrades and they have no synergy at all with bio in assault mode. Extra corruptors (BLs) or phoenixes (scout/harass) do not cripple you because they both have other uses.
if you buff ground mode they obv are good with bio. why shoudlnt they? every T player lands his vikings after killing all colossus/BLs to give buffer and huge extra damage which is fine right now. there is just no need to buff one of the best T units and meanwhile this discussion is really getting funny since some of you just want an alllround good unit for an easy peasy game. but guess what blizzard wont listen to you since the viking is fine :-)
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On September 26 2012 04:59 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 04:36 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote:On September 26 2012 03:31 Decendos wrote:On September 26 2012 03:16 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote:
I think a lot of people are missing the main point. the point is vikings have ground mode now... and why do they have ground mode now? they don't really serve any purpose in ground mode at the moment so why does it even exist... i'd rather have a corruption ability or a graviton beam like the other air to air's than a pointless ground mode... make it worth while to go ground mode... give it some purpose, or just scrap it completely instead of leaving it in as a pointless ability.
edit: and while i'm on pointles abilities blizzard for the love of god can you PLEASE do somethign with the thor's 250mm cannon strike, can we please get an ability that is seen in more than 1-2% of games played on b.net and tournaments... please? they have 12 dps and beat a hydra...seems like their ground attack is superstrong already....it just doesnt beat everything lol. Thank you for not reading my post. in response to your post after reading it, your comparison of a viking vs hydra might not be the best if you're against the viking ground mode receiving a buff. the reason is because everyone complains about how weak the hydra is and blizzard is actually changing the hydralisk. also in a real game you don't see hydra vs viking ground mode. hydra's are utilized behind a strong unit because of their low survivability and high (14.5) dps, vikings are too clunky to be utilized efficiently behind a buffer unit, (you can't fit as many in a space as you can hydras) and in a real game scenario do SUBSTANTIALLY less dps because of this. let alone doing less dps alone, 12dps vs 14.5... vikings have a ground mode, why do they have a ground mode? what was blizzard trying to achieve by giving them this? the air to air units of other races have abilities that clearly show what their role is and they are used much more often to fulfil that role than the viking is used to fulfill their unknown role 12 dps to 14,5 is a bad comparison since viking has a lot more hp and EASILY wins a fight vs hydras. and no you are wrong. hydras are NOT getting buffed! they get speed at hivetech that makes them faster offcreep but still slower as they are now oncreep so the hydra itself will still be the sucky unit and will hopefully get a buff but thats not the topic here. the topic is that vikings are REALLY good antiair and have a ground damage as a bonus if you have killed colossi/BLs etc. you get to have a 12 dps ground attack that is a great buffer with 125 hp (almost as tanky as a roach) for free as a bonus. so dont complain about a unit that is superfine. you terrans should rather discuss widow mines etc. and not one of your best units.
12 dps to 14,5 is a bad comparison since viking has a lot more hp and EASILY wins a fight vs hydras.
This is exactly why I said your comparison of a viking vs a hydra might not be the best. You don't fight with hydra's up front, directly vs a unit unless you're a bad player, or the rare 2 base timing. You fight with hydra's behind a roach to tank damage because hydra's have low hp. I was simply stating that hydra's do more DPS than a viking, Especially how much more tightly hydras can clump together in a battle scenario. So... it's not really helping you're argument against viking ground mode receiving a CHANGE to say, "vikings beat hydra's"
and no you are wrong. hydras are NOT getting buffed!
Okay, please like i mentioned in my previous post, PLEASE read my posts before quoting me and saying i'm wrong... where did i ever say in my post that the hydralisk is receiving a buff? I stated that blizzard is changing the hydralisk because so many people complained. I am fully aware of the speed increase off creep. since you say that it's not a buff, and i never said it was a buff, then i think it's safe to say it's a change to the unit addressing a problem zergs face with hydralisks. more to the topic of this thread, perhaps blizzard can come up with some sort of "change" to the ground viking that can address the problems the ground viking faces, it's clunky so it's dps in a battle scenario is weak directly because of this, and it doesn't have much of a purpose.
It already DOES have a purpose: it lets Terran players overproduce Vikings to quickly shut down Colossi, and then use Ground Mode to let those Vikings tank for the Marines.
this literally just want's to make me cry how dumb this statement is.
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On September 26 2012 06:31 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 04:59 Decendos wrote:On September 26 2012 04:36 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote:On September 26 2012 03:31 Decendos wrote:On September 26 2012 03:16 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote:
I think a lot of people are missing the main point. the point is vikings have ground mode now... and why do they have ground mode now? they don't really serve any purpose in ground mode at the moment so why does it even exist... i'd rather have a corruption ability or a graviton beam like the other air to air's than a pointless ground mode... make it worth while to go ground mode... give it some purpose, or just scrap it completely instead of leaving it in as a pointless ability.
edit: and while i'm on pointles abilities blizzard for the love of god can you PLEASE do somethign with the thor's 250mm cannon strike, can we please get an ability that is seen in more than 1-2% of games played on b.net and tournaments... please? they have 12 dps and beat a hydra...seems like their ground attack is superstrong already....it just doesnt beat everything lol. Thank you for not reading my post. in response to your post after reading it, your comparison of a viking vs hydra might not be the best if you're against the viking ground mode receiving a buff. the reason is because everyone complains about how weak the hydra is and blizzard is actually changing the hydralisk. also in a real game you don't see hydra vs viking ground mode. hydra's are utilized behind a strong unit because of their low survivability and high (14.5) dps, vikings are too clunky to be utilized efficiently behind a buffer unit, (you can't fit as many in a space as you can hydras) and in a real game scenario do SUBSTANTIALLY less dps because of this. let alone doing less dps alone, 12dps vs 14.5... vikings have a ground mode, why do they have a ground mode? what was blizzard trying to achieve by giving them this? the air to air units of other races have abilities that clearly show what their role is and they are used much more often to fulfil that role than the viking is used to fulfill their unknown role 12 dps to 14,5 is a bad comparison since viking has a lot more hp and EASILY wins a fight vs hydras. and no you are wrong. hydras are NOT getting buffed! they get speed at hivetech that makes them faster offcreep but still slower as they are now oncreep so the hydra itself will still be the sucky unit and will hopefully get a buff but thats not the topic here. the topic is that vikings are REALLY good antiair and have a ground damage as a bonus if you have killed colossi/BLs etc. you get to have a 12 dps ground attack that is a great buffer with 125 hp (almost as tanky as a roach) for free as a bonus. so dont complain about a unit that is superfine. you terrans should rather discuss widow mines etc. and not one of your best units. 12 dps to 14,5 is a bad comparison since viking has a lot more hp and EASILY wins a fight vs hydras. This is exactly why I said your comparison of a viking vs a hydra might not be the best. You don't fight with hydra's up front, directly vs a unit unless you're a bad player, or the rare 2 base timing. You fight with hydra's behind a roach to tank damage because hydra's have low hp. I was simply stating that hydra's do more DPS than a viking, Especially how much more tightly hydras can clump together in a battle scenario. So... it's not really helping you're argument against viking ground mode receiving a CHANGE to say, "vikings beat hydra's" and no you are wrong. hydras are NOT getting buffed! Okay, please like i mentioned in my previous post, PLEASE read my posts before quoting me and saying i'm wrong... where did i ever say in my post that the hydralisk is receiving a buff? I stated that blizzard is changing the hydralisk because so many people complained. I am fully aware of the speed increase off creep. since you say that it's not a buff, and i never said it was a buff, then i think it's safe to say it's a change to the unit addressing a problem zergs face with hydralisks. more to the topic of this thread, perhaps blizzard can come up with some sort of "change" to the ground viking that can address the problems the ground viking faces, it's clunky so it's dps in a battle scenario is weak directly because of this, and it doesn't have much of a purpose. It already DOES have a purpose: it lets Terran players overproduce Vikings to quickly shut down Colossi, and then use Ground Mode to let those Vikings tank for the Marines.this literally just want's to make me cry how dumb this statement is.
the hydra was only an example. like i wrote they do fine vs EVERY ground unit (fine DOESNT mean win because then every T would just build 70 vikings and win every game).
after killing colossi they DO tank for MMM. are you kidding me? watch ANY pro stream where 10 vikings = 1250 hp to kill doesnt tank vs zealots. if you say otherwise you never have done it or just use useless arguments to get your vikingbuff which will never gonna happen because it is and AA unit (a great one) and has a good bonus which is ground attack.
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The correct answer is mostly:
You don't fight with Hydras.
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On September 23 2012 01:03 mannerless wrote:
I don't know why the fuck Blizzard hasn't thought about merging armory upgrades yet...Instead of having separate upgrades for ships and vehicles just add a fucking "Machines" upgrade that works for factory and Starport. With mech being way shittier than it was in Broodwar there is no reason to make it have a different upgrade path, not to mention that for some reason ship plating is expensive (starting at 150/150) for no goddamn reason other than it being like that in BW (which blizz insists they don't wanna copy).
I think this change alone would give people an incentive on using the current factory units, you wouldn't even need to buff Vikings maybe.
you say that like it was an obvious change that needs to be done. Vikings need a buff, that's a fact, but there might be other opinions than yours that are valid.
Don't rage on blizzard like a 13 years old without a valid point, or at least, not in these forums -.-
On the other hand, I agree with the 14 totaldmg / 2 bursts, but more or less on the upgrade part. It would be nice to be able as a terran to upgrade mech weapon in tvz lets say, and when the zerg transition to hive tech, you already have your viking ugpraded, but I feel it would be too strong of an upgrade.
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Ground Vikings seem like they could be a possible fix to mech, but balancing them so that they aren't able to be massed but still powerful to be effective will be tricky.
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On September 26 2012 06:44 Decendos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2012 06:31 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote:On September 26 2012 04:59 Decendos wrote:On September 26 2012 04:36 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote:On September 26 2012 03:31 Decendos wrote:On September 26 2012 03:16 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote:
I think a lot of people are missing the main point. the point is vikings have ground mode now... and why do they have ground mode now? they don't really serve any purpose in ground mode at the moment so why does it even exist... i'd rather have a corruption ability or a graviton beam like the other air to air's than a pointless ground mode... make it worth while to go ground mode... give it some purpose, or just scrap it completely instead of leaving it in as a pointless ability.
edit: and while i'm on pointles abilities blizzard for the love of god can you PLEASE do somethign with the thor's 250mm cannon strike, can we please get an ability that is seen in more than 1-2% of games played on b.net and tournaments... please? they have 12 dps and beat a hydra...seems like their ground attack is superstrong already....it just doesnt beat everything lol. Thank you for not reading my post. in response to your post after reading it, your comparison of a viking vs hydra might not be the best if you're against the viking ground mode receiving a buff. the reason is because everyone complains about how weak the hydra is and blizzard is actually changing the hydralisk. also in a real game you don't see hydra vs viking ground mode. hydra's are utilized behind a strong unit because of their low survivability and high (14.5) dps, vikings are too clunky to be utilized efficiently behind a buffer unit, (you can't fit as many in a space as you can hydras) and in a real game scenario do SUBSTANTIALLY less dps because of this. let alone doing less dps alone, 12dps vs 14.5... vikings have a ground mode, why do they have a ground mode? what was blizzard trying to achieve by giving them this? the air to air units of other races have abilities that clearly show what their role is and they are used much more often to fulfil that role than the viking is used to fulfill their unknown role 12 dps to 14,5 is a bad comparison since viking has a lot more hp and EASILY wins a fight vs hydras. and no you are wrong. hydras are NOT getting buffed! they get speed at hivetech that makes them faster offcreep but still slower as they are now oncreep so the hydra itself will still be the sucky unit and will hopefully get a buff but thats not the topic here. the topic is that vikings are REALLY good antiair and have a ground damage as a bonus if you have killed colossi/BLs etc. you get to have a 12 dps ground attack that is a great buffer with 125 hp (almost as tanky as a roach) for free as a bonus. so dont complain about a unit that is superfine. you terrans should rather discuss widow mines etc. and not one of your best units. 12 dps to 14,5 is a bad comparison since viking has a lot more hp and EASILY wins a fight vs hydras. This is exactly why I said your comparison of a viking vs a hydra might not be the best. You don't fight with hydra's up front, directly vs a unit unless you're a bad player, or the rare 2 base timing. You fight with hydra's behind a roach to tank damage because hydra's have low hp. I was simply stating that hydra's do more DPS than a viking, Especially how much more tightly hydras can clump together in a battle scenario. So... it's not really helping you're argument against viking ground mode receiving a CHANGE to say, "vikings beat hydra's" and no you are wrong. hydras are NOT getting buffed! Okay, please like i mentioned in my previous post, PLEASE read my posts before quoting me and saying i'm wrong... where did i ever say in my post that the hydralisk is receiving a buff? I stated that blizzard is changing the hydralisk because so many people complained. I am fully aware of the speed increase off creep. since you say that it's not a buff, and i never said it was a buff, then i think it's safe to say it's a change to the unit addressing a problem zergs face with hydralisks. more to the topic of this thread, perhaps blizzard can come up with some sort of "change" to the ground viking that can address the problems the ground viking faces, it's clunky so it's dps in a battle scenario is weak directly because of this, and it doesn't have much of a purpose. It already DOES have a purpose: it lets Terran players overproduce Vikings to quickly shut down Colossi, and then use Ground Mode to let those Vikings tank for the Marines.this literally just want's to make me cry how dumb this statement is. the hydra was only an example. like i wrote they do fine vs EVERY ground unit (fine DOESNT mean win because then every T would just build 70 vikings and win every game). after killing colossi they DO tank for MMM. are you kidding me? watch ANY pro stream where 10 vikings = 1250 hp to kill doesnt tank vs zealots. if you say otherwise you never have done it or just use useless arguments to get your vikingbuff which will never gonna happen because it is and AA unit (a great one) and has a good bonus which is ground attack.
I wanted to cry because that guy is basically saying the vikings purpose is to allow players to play bad. overbuilding vikings then landing them to to die just to tank for mmm is a very bad starcraft player... you will never see a pro building vikings to land them and use them as tanks, it's always as a last resort when they've usually already lost or you see them land as an insult after they completely crush a protoss army yeah, but to be used as tanks for mmm? i'm pretty sure blizzard's intention of the ground viking wasn't for them to be used as tanks, especially with their low hp per cost.
i'm just trying to figure out what was/is blizzards intention for the ground viking? what is it good at? you say tanking for mmm, it's deffinately not good at that. the fight is either heavily one way and the landed vikings are just their rub it in, or it's the opposite and half the fleet of vikings is dead before they touch the gound while intransition, and the remaining are dead in mere seconds with it's low hp per cost. if blizzard truly intended the ground viking on being a tank for mmm then I would argue that it needs a DRASTIC buff. However, i don't believe this is what they wanted for the ground viking.
why is it in the game, what did they want it to do? it's HOTS and now is the time to look at this. it just doesn't make sense to me that they purposely put it in the game to be low armor, low hp per cost meatshield. I just think it could be something that actually serves a purpose if changed, because using ground vikings now just feels so pointless. i'm not asking for a buff, i'm just asking to give them sort of change to give them a purpose. have you ever seen/heard a pro gamer complain about losing a game because of ground vikings?
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EPT
