EPTGround Vikings - Page 11
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Agh
United States1037 Posts
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On September 25 2012 15:09 Agh wrote: Obligatory mention that landed vikings do double the dps of a stalker. Note that the race's Terran... for instance, 2 stimmed marines deal like 1.75 times the DPS of a Viking at 100/0 vs 150/75. | ||
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GT350
United States270 Posts
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Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
On September 25 2012 14:51 Dephy wrote: would be kinda epic having this viking though. Maybe zergs wouldnt camp all day long with there imposible to kill army, since 6/6 viking might come and woop your ass. It would also benefit good terran players who have good macro ability and all. And since every race is differnt it could work, right now zergs/toss players on this thread keeps talking about there units, compared to viking and how viking cant be atleast average on ground because its good in air. Thor is good vs air and good vs heavy ground targets, pheonix is good vs air and good at harrasing. Why cant viking have couple or roles is beyond me, because viking is cool unit, that have interesting mechanic, why simple having more a move bio army is more fun for ppl than having fun unique unit? If you keep saying he must suck on ground still, why not remove ground mode altogether and make them cheaper? Since its another case of 250mm strike cannon atm (this ability actually nerf's the unit instead of buffing it). Your post is stupidly terran biased. There is so much wrong with it my eyes are bleeding. Firstly, 6/6 viking is a stupidly hard counter to everything that flys in the game as well as colossus. On the ground they would be better than roaches. Second, the viking is already the cheapest flying unit in the game for gas cost, and pretty close on mineral cost too. Mutas cost 50 less mins and 25 more gas. Everything else costs more. You could remove their ground ability and with their current cost they would still be balanced. Third, the zerg army isn't impossible to kill. Buffing vikings to a rediculous level of damage and armour is just asking for an EZ-mode way to win. Fourth, Vikings have a secondary role which is to land and shoot shit. You don't see it much, but the role exists. They have decent dps for a unit that costs as little as a viking considering it is also the best anti-air fighter in the game. | ||
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Huragius
Lithuania1506 Posts
On September 25 2012 15:54 Kharnage wrote: Your post is stupidly terran biased. There is so much wrong with it my eyes are bleeding. Firstly, 6/6 viking is a stupidly hard counter to everything that flys in the game as well as colossus. On the ground they would be better than roaches. Second, the viking is already the cheapest flying unit in the game for gas cost, and pretty close on mineral cost too. Mutas cost 50 less mins and 25 more gas. Everything else costs more. You could remove their ground ability and with their current cost they would still be balanced. Third, the zerg army isn't impossible to kill. Buffing vikings to a rediculous level of damage and armour is just asking for an EZ-mode way to win. Fourth, Vikings have a secondary role which is to land and shoot shit. You don't see it much, but the role exists. They have decent dps for a unit that costs as little as a viking considering it is also the best anti-air fighter in the game. Please, don't make yourself look stupid. | ||
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one-one-one
Sweden551 Posts
On September 25 2012 15:09 Agh wrote: Obligatory mention that landed vikings do double the dps of a stalker. Besides the fact that such a comparison is ridiculous you are spreading disinformation. That is simply not true. A viking has 23% higher dps to armored and 73% higher dps, assuming no upgrades . At 3 weapon upgrades the numbers are 27% vs 66%. See my calculations in a previous post in this thread. Where does the figure 2 come from and why are protoss players actively spreading false information like this? | ||
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Dephy
Lithuania163 Posts
On September 25 2012 15:54 Kharnage wrote: Your post is stupidly terran biased. There is so much wrong with it my eyes are bleeding. Firstly, 6/6 viking is a stupidly hard counter to everything that flys in the game as well as colossus. On the ground they would be better than roaches. Second, the viking is already the cheapest flying unit in the game for gas cost, and pretty close on mineral cost too. Mutas cost 50 less mins and 25 more gas. Everything else costs more. You could remove their ground ability and with their current cost they would still be balanced. Third, the zerg army isn't impossible to kill. Buffing vikings to a rediculous level of damage and armour is just asking for an EZ-mode way to win. Fourth, Vikings have a secondary role which is to land and shoot shit. You don't see it much, but the role exists. They have decent dps for a unit that costs as little as a viking considering it is also the best anti-air fighter in the game. viking cost almost triple than roaches, double upgrades could effect only on landed mode, even with 6/6 viking, building tanks and thors is 2x-3x more effective than viking to fight ground, pop per pop corruptors wins vs vikings, now add fungal gg vikings in air, mass vikings actually lose to mass carriers, try it if you dont believe me. TVP biggest problem atm is in late game, where toss switches between ht and colosus armies. If he build colosus and you build viking = fight even. If you build viking, he didnt build colosus = you at big disadvantage. If you didnt build viking , he build colosus = you lose. If you didnt build viking, he didnt build colosus = fight even. Atm building viking in each mu(p/z) is same guessing game, well you build viking i didnt build air, gg to you. And even if you build viking's and he build air(or colossus), you are on even grounds. Its not like you insta win, since you countered his air units, its more like you didn't lose the game. Thats why making vikings more round unit is one of the solution to solving terran late game. Vikings with upgrades should be good units, they are expensive not only in cost, but buildtime, even when reactored, if you are going bio army, you ussualy have to choose between vikings and medivacs, its not like you have resourses to build extra starports early game. Late game 25 extra gas cost doesnt mean anything though. Terran already have to much gas when going bio. | ||
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Decendos
Germany1341 Posts
On September 25 2012 15:54 Kharnage wrote: Your post is stupidly terran biased. There is so much wrong with it my eyes are bleeding. Firstly, 6/6 viking is a stupidly hard counter to everything that flys in the game as well as colossus. On the ground they would be better than roaches. Second, the viking is already the cheapest flying unit in the game for gas cost, and pretty close on mineral cost too. Mutas cost 50 less mins and 25 more gas. Everything else costs more. You could remove their ground ability and with their current cost they would still be balanced. Third, the zerg army isn't impossible to kill. Buffing vikings to a rediculous level of damage and armour is just asking for an EZ-mode way to win. Fourth, Vikings have a secondary role which is to land and shoot shit. You don't see it much, but the role exists. They have decent dps for a unit that costs as little as a viking considering it is also the best anti-air fighter in the game. exactly this. vikings wont get changed and thats a good thing. they are already strong enough. | ||
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one-one-one
Sweden551 Posts
On September 25 2012 16:43 Dephy wrote: viking cost almost triple than roaches, double upgrades could effect only on landed mode, even with 6/6 viking, building tanks and thors is 2x-3x more effective than viking to fight ground, pop per pop corruptors wins vs vikings, now add fungal gg vikings in air, mass vikings actually lose to mass carriers, try it if you dont believe me. TVP biggest problem atm is in late game, where toss switches between ht and colosus armies. If he build colosus and you build viking = fight even. If you build viking, he didnt build colosus = you at big disadvantage. If you didnt build viking , he build colosus = you lose. If you didnt build viking, he didnt build colosus = fight even. Atm building viking in each mu(p/z) is same guessing game, well you build viking i didnt build air, gg to you. And even if you build viking's and he build air(or colossus), you are on even grounds. Its not like you insta win, since you countered his air units, its more like you didn't lose the game. Thats why making vikings more round unit is one of the solution to solving terran late game. Vikings with upgrades should be good units, they are expensive not only in cost, but buildtime, even when reactored, if you are going bio army, you ussualy have to choose between vikings and medivacs, its not like you have resourses to build extra starports early game. Late game 25 extra gas cost doesnt mean anything though. Terran already have to much gas when going bio. Actually, the more I think about this the more I think that this is just an ugly fix that is meant to fix a problem caused by the poorly designed Thor unit. Consider this: In the TvP matchup all the "scary" ground units when playing mech are either zealots or a unit which the thor would be good against had it not been for the 250mm strike cannon "ability". These units are stalkers, archons, immortals and colossus. They all share the property of having a large collision radius meaning that tank splash damage does not affect as many units. A hard hitting single target raw damage dealer has the potential to be a core unit in a TvP mech army. The composition would consist of Thors, Hellions, Tanks and Vikings. A few tanks could still be useful to target fire stalkers and high templars but the main dps output would come from the Thor. Vikings has to be deployed to deal with colossus and void rays. I guess you could also mix in banshees and ravens as you go along. It would only require that Blizzard scrapped the stupid 250mm cannon upgrade and the thor energy bar along with it. They could also make the ability cooldown based again. The new phase shield ability can be used to prevent 250mm cannons from affecting a target. This would make the protoss able to engage thor armies, The thor-immortal interaction is the most stupid thing about SC2, with Hots they really have the chance to pick up the ball again. | ||
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ejozl
Denmark3481 Posts
Right now Vikings are around 75% Valkyrie / 25% Goliath, what your suggesting, is that they make it a 75% Valkyrie / 75% Goliath. | ||
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Fragile51
Netherlands15767 Posts
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Huragius
Lithuania1506 Posts
On September 25 2012 19:02 Fragile51 wrote: I don't get why people want to change a unit that literally nobody complained about. Seriously, the viking has its place within the game, and the landing mode is not so much a way to make them more versatile and effective vs ground units, it's more a way for them to safely disengage vs superior anti-air numbers. Ultra switch from Broodlord/Corruptor is a serious problem in TvZ (one of the major ones, and don't claim that TvZ is a fine match-up, because it's not). Also, HT switch from Collosi is quite a problem as well for Terran and instant remax on gate units during battle when Terran has a lot of worthless flying supply is hard to deal with. Buffing ground mode vikings could solve these issues (maybe slightly, but still) and since HotS is still in beta I think it's a proper time for these suggestions. | ||
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Fragile51
Netherlands15767 Posts
On September 25 2012 19:11 Huragius wrote: Ultra switch from Broodlord/Corruptor is a serious problem in TvZ (one of the major ones, and don't claim that TvZ is a fine match-up, because it's not). Also, HT switch from Collosi is quite a problem as well for Terran and instant remax on gate units during battle when Terran has a lot of worthless flying supply is hard to deal with. Buffing ground mode vikings could solve these issues (maybe slightly, but still) and since HotS is still in beta I think it's a proper time for these suggestions. But it would be so hard to properly balance that..i mean at what point would vikings become such a catch-all solution to every tech path that you can just make them blindly and be fine? I don't think sc2 needs more of that right now. If you were to make vikings more effective on the ground you'd have to nerf them in the air, simple as that. I don't think that fixes that problem. | ||
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Huragius
Lithuania1506 Posts
On September 25 2012 19:25 Fragile51 wrote: But it would be so hard to properly balance that..i mean at what point would vikings become such a catch-all solution to every tech path that you can just make them blindly and be fine? I don't think sc2 needs more of that right now. If you were to make vikings more effective on the ground you'd have to nerf them in the air, simple as that. I don't think that fixes that problem. I don't want to majorly buff them like Dephy was suggesting. Something like + 1 base armor and bonus +1 (or maybe even two?Don't know about this much, there should be some testing) damage per upgrade would be a nice and proper addition imo. | ||
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Zealos
United Kingdom3576 Posts
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Fairwell
Austria195 Posts
Do you even play the game at a reasonable level? It seems like everyone is just tossing things out of his head. There have been so many dumb suggestions already in this thread it's unbelieveable (making vikings light etc). Radical changes like these affect the whole gameplay a ton. Vikings are already the "best" anti air unit from all three races (corruptors can't land and unless a greater spire is up already they fly around useless apart from being terrible against units that are not massive; phoenix can harass but are very specialised in that you need more of them to have the energy and they only serve vs light units while vikings can be used vs any other air unit as well as all capital ships/colossi). Apart from that they can land as a bonus to help out. A zerg can't do this with his corruptors and phoenix are also quite limited in this role (having 3-4 phoenix and won't help you too much getting overrun by mass ling-roach or stimmed bio, since you can't "hide" them behind other units or simply don't do dps in that case). Lets be honest, the real issue for all the people posting in this thread seems to be that they want mech to be viable so badly that they are willing to change anything to make that happen. First of all this is not a necessary step to balance win rates over races, it's only there to diversify terran play even more. So all those threads with possible terran unit buffs have to be considered carefully, because most suggestions don't only buff mech but straight up normal terran bio play. Most people also seem to forget that just diversifying gameplay of a race is not the same as "this race is overall too weak so we need to buff it some way". Hence with any significant buff to a unit there needs to be a nerf to another aspect of this race assuming the goal is again only to diversify and not just straight up buffing this race. So any possible buffs that also strengthen not mech-centric terran gameplay need to be well-thought-out to not end in a disaster since the regular gameplay in WOL overall (not saying no tweaks can be done) is in a quite good state currently. Secondly everyone who really wants to play mech that can really be called mech (the warhound did not feel like mech at all ...) should happen to reasonable changes to current mech units or a well designed new mech unit. And last but not least don't forget that not only terrans want to use all their units in every matchup. Every race has units that they simply can't use in certain matchups or only in specific circumstances but not as a standard everygame-go-to-unit. Current bio-centric play requires skill in a lot of different areas not only in micro/macro but also quick decision making etc. Did you ever think about the consequences to the gameplay a viking buff (which is perfectly fine imho, there are other terran units that could be tweaked) would create? Apart from possible balance issues in a lot of other areas in the game you would end up like someone described a few posts above "just going tanks+vikings and be fine". This is not interesting gameplay and far more boring than any current terran play is. SC2 will only remain a well acknowledged and widely appreciated interesting game to play if encourage more diversify gameplay instead of narrowing it down. Change mech in the long run? Sure, nothing wrong with that. Destroying balance and/or creating a stupid version of mech along the way? Hell no. I hope this motivates people to actually think through their suggestions at least 1minute before hitting the "post" button with the very first thought that strikes their mind. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20326 Posts
Lets throw stuff like this out there, and complain about mech when it is good enough to throw korean TvP/Z to 70+% winrates for a month or more, until then, it is clearly needed if mech is to be a viable and desired playstyle with rax play taking over the beta immediately after the warhound removal (which was pretty neccesary, pre-nerf there were obviously major issues) Wouldnt it be sweet if all of the "marine overpowered" jokes turned to "siege tanks overpowered" overnight though, In their current state marines do not flat out break anything, but nobody can argue that they are a bad or underpowered unit, whereas most point to tanks being awful vs protoss, or bad with many good strategies vs zerg. We can dream. | ||
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Fairwell
Austria195 Posts
On September 25 2012 21:34 Cyro wrote: I do think honestly that vehicle and air weapons/armor should be merged, so that there are two sets of upgrades, Bio and Mechanical, vikings are clearly necessary in so many situations with "standard" mech, and MVP has shown more recently that banshees allow you to do a lot more a lot better, too, and it would also open up the lategame more. (TvZ) Lets throw stuff like this out there, and complain about mech when it is good enough to throw korean TvP/Z to 70+% winrates for a month or more, until then, it is clearly needed if mech is to be a viable and desired playstyle with rax play taking over the beta immediately after the warhound removal (which was pretty neccesary, pre-nerf there were obviously major issues) Wouldnt it be sweet if all of the "marine overpowered" jokes turned to "siege tanks overpowered" overnight though, In their current state marines do not flat out break anything, but nobody can argue that they are a bad or underpowered unit, whereas most point to tanks being awful vs protoss, or bad with many good strategies vs zerg. We can dream. If mech would be playable in all matchups and bio not, people would just talk about bio nonstop as well. It's just that people always long for the thing they can't have. :-) Ad merging the upgrades: Terran would have the cheapest upgrade paths from all three races then and on the way buffing bio-centric play (easier to incorporate some other units there as well). So while this is a possibility I feel again that this would be just a "overall terran straight up buff" (exactly like the upgrade cost reduction on the protoss ground upgrades had been) while not targeting any specific playstyle alone (ofc it buffs mech a lot but also bio-centric play by a good margin). Changes like these are a good way to balance the game if the overall state of a race is that it is too weak vs the other two races because you don't create any nasty new unit compositions/timings (maybe with upgrades but in a much lesser degree then at least) compared to straight up unit changes. Hence why I think units/upgrades/abilities that directly go to a mech centric play should have the focus instead of overall buffs. Terran bio is in a fine state right now and it took quite a while to get there in WOL. To throw one of my own ideas out there: I think something should be done with the Thor's strike canon. However, I'm not simply talking about slight tweaks here. On the contrary, I'm talking about completely removing this ability and instead introduce a new special ability for the Thor. The reasoning behind this is that a unit should never counter unit that are supposed to be counters to it or at least very good vs it by themselves. So while the strike canon could be fine in TvZ maybe to help out vs ultralisk and in tvt maybe as well (not really sure about this, cause apart from thors themselves which unit would be worth it since they can't use it on air -> bc's) the canon ability together with a normal casting range of 9 is not only good vs colossi/archons (which would be fine, encouring the use of abilities on the right targets (archons) and having to keep colossi out of canon range (colossi)) but vs immortals. Immortals are already units that are way more specialised than the other two mentioned in that they are not just decent in like every kinda normal battle but only in certain situations. Their build time, mobility compared to the other two units and only doing any significant dps vs armored means you don't just want to mass them blindly in a normal tvp. There was a reason strike canon got nerfed after Thorzain showcasing it in a nice tournament series. So instead of trying to focus on stats to the strike canon (cooldown didn't do it and most terrans are not happy about that enegy bar at all even if the energy cost would be reduced) I believe the better approach would be to give the unit some nice ability that in a way can help terrans with typical mech issues (maybe something to help control space more easily ...). This would make it possible for the thor to have a nice place in the terran army like other units and encourage players to make thors because of their utility while still requiring the player to make the right unit composition to go along with them (like ghosts to emp immortals). And because the thor on its own is not the super unit because it can be countered this ability could actually be on the strong side rather than being some gimmicky ability that can only be used in rare situations. This gimmicky utility seems to the for instance the HSM on the raven, because compared to the other two races the terran army comes along with higher dps but not that nice aoe protoss has and not the mobility/tech switch/swarming ability with high eco zerg can offer. This combined with the fact that the raven itself is already a flying unit with detection and 2 versatile skills means that HSM can never be on the same strength level as hts (which are ground, damn slow and without the aoe toss has way less dps in big engagements cause zealots are melee and can't always hit like ranged unit) or infestors (which kinda seem to be a little bit too prevalent but absolutely necessary cause other zerg options lack in strength for straight up engagements). Such abilities will always either be regarded being totally op or next to useless only seen in rare games. It's tough to find the sweet spot for such abilities. So often times it can be better to scrap the old ability which is hardly ever used and replace it with a new fresh one that can maybe fix on of the other shortcomings the race in its current state is suffering from. | ||
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Valadash
Canada31 Posts
 But I would like to see some buff to make ground vikings usable but then again I am only silver league and my opinion does not mean shit : / | ||
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TheLunatic
309 Posts
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