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On September 24 2012 14:41 Dephy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2012 14:32 Xapti wrote:
Vikings can attack ground — isn't that good enough? look at zerg — corruptor can't attack ground in any way; at least the phoenix has graviton beam.
Making ground mode vikings stronger offers a real problem where you'll have one unit that can counter anything, be it air units or ground units. vikings are the main anti-air unit for terran, so if they then are also good against ground it'd be pretty bland or even imbalanced.
Ground mode is just a gimmick that gives added-value to the viking; In my opinion it's added-value superior to phoenix's graviton beam or corruptor's corruption. Ground mode vikings don't need to be powerful enough for x, they just need to be able to do damage. In my opinion it's the same sort of deal as infested terrans — a stupid little gimmick that gives added value to the infestor via a terrible and slow ranged unit (personally I'd want it removed from the game though, while not the case with ground-mode viking).
In my opinion the first and/or only changes viking should get is a faster transformation time. I think a faster movement speed but lower range could also be appropriate, but that could possibly mess up the game a bit (would need lots of testing). you forgot 1 thing, corruptors morth into bl's. For that only fact corruptors are already better than anything vikings ever was or will be... And infested terrans arent gimmick there dps is out of this world...
LOL id GLADLY trade corruptors for vikings, vikings are so much better than corruptors at AA...........
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Vikings are already the bet AA unit in the game, giving them a stronger ground attack would make them too much of a counter to all units, especially against toss
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On September 24 2012 21:09 Dephy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2012 20:47 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2012 20:02 Dephy wrote:On September 24 2012 18:30 one-one-one wrote:On September 24 2012 18:19 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2012 16:11 one-one-one wrote:On September 24 2012 16:02 Kharnage wrote:On September 24 2012 14:45 one-one-one wrote:On September 24 2012 14:32 Xapti wrote:
Vikings can attack ground — isn't that good enough? look at zerg — corruptor can't attack ground in any way; at least the phoenix has graviton beam.
Making ground mode vikings stronger offers a real problem where you'll have one unit that can counter anything, be it air units or ground units. vikings are the main anti-air unit for terran, so if they then are also good against ground it'd be pretty bland or even imbalanced. Yes, but you and several others come to this thread with this standpoint without understanding of the core problem. We are not necessarily talking about a big general buff vs ground units making mass viking strats possible. Just some tweaking so that they would fit a natural role in a terran mech composition. Hellions deal with light units. Tanks deal with armored and low-hp units. What is left is units like archons and immortals and ultras. If ground vikings were buffed a bit they could actually be good vs these units. Low damage and high rate of fire is perfect vs immortal shields and as long as protoss dont have shield upgrades they wont need any upgrades to do full damage to archons. Maybe not ultras so much, but it would make zerg tech switches less lethal if they could be used to buffer in front of your tanks and thors in case of a BL -> Ultra tech switch. Together with its anti-air it would be a good unit to have in a mech composition. It also makes sense logically. There are obvious similarities with the goliath. The viking is the very same unit, except that it needs to lift of in order to hit air and land to hit ground units. Umm, aren't thors good at doing lots of damage to single units? I thought that was their 'thang'. Ahh, I think I see what you're after here. It's a double pronged super buff! you want and all in one to counter BL and ultra. then you ALSO want an all in 1 counter for colossus and archons and immortals. Good unit there. Sorry, you need to actually build other units. I know, it's crazy, but there you go. Against protoss if you get 3 bases get ghosts. Stop arguing, stop looking for a way out of it, you MUST get ghosts. They counter immortals, HT, sentry, archon and also can do a lot of damage. Get fricken ghosts. Not gonna say what you should be doing in TvZ since i don't know, i play protoss. But it's pretty bloody obvious that if vikings were good vs ultra and BL then the game would be take 3 bases and start massing vikings. Done! Yes, thors are good vs archons and immortals. But if you have archons you most likely have high templars which negate the thor's 250 mm strike cannon while also taking away a big chunk of their hp. Suddenly they are not so good anymore .... Ghosts are very good with mech, but it is hard to get the number of ghosts that would be necessary until very late in the game. You need a lot of things other than ghosts. If protoss open with colossus you need to have the vikings. I wont address your other points as you clearly were twisting my words. How is it twisting your words when your exact words are What is left is units like archons and immortals and ultras. If ground vikings were buffed a bit they could actually be good vs these units. ? It's the logical conclusion and outcome if vikings are good vs those units. Yes, it's hard to get the 'right number' of ghosts till the late game. Just like it's hard for protoss to get HT with storm, archons, immortals, colossus, charge and blink with their respective upgrades. It's also hard to get a high infestor count, lots of corruptors, spines and broods as well as all melee upgrades and ultra-armour + the bank + larvae so that zerg can do those big tech switches. It's not meant to be easy to counter everything. There is a difference between a unit that is good vs another unit and a unit that hardcounters a unit. I didn't say that vikings on the ground should hardcounter immortals, archons and ultras. I merely said that it would be good if they could fill the roll of a decent damage unit with low damage but high rate of fire so that mech has a unit that doesn't suck balls vs immortals. Neither did I mean that it should counter ultras. It would just be good if it could do a slightly better job of buffering in front of tanks in case of a quick BL -> ultra switch. So what is the logical conclusion I should draw from your posts ? i think ppl are overestimating of how good vikings was. Infact even with 14ground damage instead of 12, they where total shit. In tvt we used to see like 5tanks and 30viking rainbow fights, it was like that not because vikings were good, it was because players were bad, you can put 20damage viking, and they would still get raped by bio ball/toss/zerg army, though they would actually be a threat on the ground, right now viking threat on the ground is about the same as sentry without energy. If they dont want to change viking damage/armor values, they should change it switch animation, movespeed on the ground to be alot faster, so that fast viking raids would actually be a threat. I remember when D.B first introduced them, he showed a clip of how land in base and harras it and shit. How often you see that in real games? never, because sending vikings to harras is suicide for them, because they are slow as shit, takes 200hours to switch form and then have movespeed of 2.25, what can you actually kill with them? You only send them to suicide mission when they are totaly useles(aka no air units), so can maybe kill with them something, srsly 150-75 unit that is useless, basic marine has dps of viking on the ground and marine cost 4x less, have better movespeed and so on. Even if they would buff vikings hardcore you would never see them on mass, since they are so bad on land that normal units like bio balls or tank/thor army are 3-4times better atm. So my suggestion is actually buff they movespeed on the ground + transformation speed, this would make kinda ok harras unit for mech armies, which doesnt have marine/marauders balls, to take out bases(helions can only kill workers.) To make it fair, maybe give it an upgrade for this improvement in Fussion core. You've hit the nail on the head and at the same time are completely wrong. You are totally correct that if anything a 'buff' to vikings should be to their taking off and landing speed. They are too slow to be used as a harassing unit or even an emergency buffer unit. This makes any landing suicidal plus if the harassed player is paying attention at all the workers will just run before the vikings even get a shot off. I would buff their landing time so they 'crunch' into the ground and keep their taking off speed to same so it's a risky move, but one that might actually bag you some workers or slow down a bunch of ultras for a sec. Where you are wrong. Viking ground dps is 12 (+1) with range 6. That makes them TWICE as powerful in pure dps as a stalker. On top of that Vikings are the cheapest air unit for GAS in the game and are fantastic at their primary role of AA, especially with thor or marine support. Their ground speed is the same as an immortal, they are mostly terrible because they get in each others way. It's not like they are 'Queen-off-creep' slow. its not only about dps, stalkers have blink and good ms can shoot air and dont need to switch to air mode to do that, not only that you can insta reinforce them with pylon from wg(this act this makes them abit weaker, than they should have been for balance reasons), they also have more hp and do extra damage to heavy, we have seen mass stalkers armies with blink, do great even vs mmm armies.
Yeah, I agree with you.
Also, with the "That makes them TWICE as powerful" part you are the one who is wrong. Stalkers do 10 damage with a +4 bonus to armored with a cooldown of 1.44s. Vikings do 12 damage with 1s cooldown.
Stalker dps vs armored is 14/1.44 = 9.7222...
Stalker dps vs armored is 10/1.44 = 6.9444...
Viking dps is trivially = 12.
12/9.7222... = 1.2343...
12/6.9444... = 1.7280...
So vikings are 23% stronger vs armored and 73% stronger vs non-armored units assuming no upgrades.
Your argumentation is immature, narrow minded and lacks nuance because you take things out of their context and twist and bend facts to fit your theories. You also spread false information and refer to it as facts.
We get that your standpoint is that no terran units should ever be considered for a buff.
But what are you doing in this thread where we try to come up with constructive ways to slightly modify a terran unit so that it could to some extent function a bit like how the warhound was supposed to ?
A slightly buffed viking will not be nearly as bad as the Warhound was.
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On September 23 2012 00:48 Piousflea wrote:With all the attention on Tanks and Hellions and Firebattlehellions, you'd think that people would think about one of the other Terran units that has been around for a long time - Ground Vikings. Ground Vikings are weak. REALLY weak. They weren't always so bad. IIRC at one point in WoL Beta they had 1 Armor and 14 damage and could compete toe-to-toe vs stalkers and hydralisks. Thing is, a usable Ground Viking would actually fill a lot of the holes in HotS Mech. What do I mean by usable? I think it would be a viable unit with just two changes: - Vikings may use either Mech or Air upgrades, whichever is highest. (this is the big one) - Attack changed from 12 damage to 7x2 damage. This is only a 17% buff against normal units, and not a buff against high-Armor units, but is a 40% buff vs immortal shields. Why would a usable Ground Viking fit well with Mech play?1) You'll have a starport anyways, now that medivacs heal your firebattlehellions. 2) Vikings cover the main weakness of mech which is Air.3) Vikings are amazingly supply-efficient. At 150/75/2 they have a 112.5:1 cost:supply ratio which is higher than anything except spellcasters and Banelings (150:1). HotS mech uses a lot of hellions (50:1) and widow mines (50:1) so you really need a supply-efficient unit to make up the difference. 4) Vikings are surprisingly good against Archons. Throw a ball of ground vikings into a ball of archons in Unit Tester. The viking's fast attack busts through shields while its bulky size and Mechanical nature makes the archon's attack highly ineffective. With these changes, Ground Vikings would still be fairly weak and not a unit you'd really want to mass, but you could sprinkle a few into that mid-range crescent in between your hellions and tanks. They would do wonders against Archon and Immortal shields, while making you much less nervous about an air switch. I'm not the first person to think of something similar: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6606901403http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6606432476http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6572270602
The issue is that bio is too good - not that mech is bad. I'm amazed how gluttonous terrans are. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
Imagine if I was asking for a phoenix to have the ability to morph into a ground form and be able to go toe to toe with stalkers, all while keeping great air superiority? Sounds absurd? It is.
In any case, you guys already got widow mines being seriously op just because you couldn't figure out how to use them effectively in the first two weeks of beta. Come release, those things are going to be seriously op. The other races practically need detection everywhere, and one slip up means a mineral line you just transferred to at your third is gone. Your big units are gone, and packs of small units (due to the new aoe being huge) are gone.
God forbid you have to make ghosts to beat out t2 units... Reminds me of how Protoss need to make templars to beat your t1.5 units.
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On September 24 2012 21:31 Protein wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 00:48 Piousflea wrote:With all the attention on Tanks and Hellions and Firebattlehellions, you'd think that people would think about one of the other Terran units that has been around for a long time - Ground Vikings. Ground Vikings are weak. REALLY weak. They weren't always so bad. IIRC at one point in WoL Beta they had 1 Armor and 14 damage and could compete toe-to-toe vs stalkers and hydralisks. Thing is, a usable Ground Viking would actually fill a lot of the holes in HotS Mech. What do I mean by usable? I think it would be a viable unit with just two changes: - Vikings may use either Mech or Air upgrades, whichever is highest. (this is the big one) - Attack changed from 12 damage to 7x2 damage. This is only a 17% buff against normal units, and not a buff against high-Armor units, but is a 40% buff vs immortal shields. Why would a usable Ground Viking fit well with Mech play?1) You'll have a starport anyways, now that medivacs heal your firebattlehellions. 2) Vikings cover the main weakness of mech which is Air.3) Vikings are amazingly supply-efficient. At 150/75/2 they have a 112.5:1 cost:supply ratio which is higher than anything except spellcasters and Banelings (150:1). HotS mech uses a lot of hellions (50:1) and widow mines (50:1) so you really need a supply-efficient unit to make up the difference. 4) Vikings are surprisingly good against Archons. Throw a ball of ground vikings into a ball of archons in Unit Tester. The viking's fast attack busts through shields while its bulky size and Mechanical nature makes the archon's attack highly ineffective. With these changes, Ground Vikings would still be fairly weak and not a unit you'd really want to mass, but you could sprinkle a few into that mid-range crescent in between your hellions and tanks. They would do wonders against Archon and Immortal shields, while making you much less nervous about an air switch. I'm not the first person to think of something similar: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6606901403http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6606432476http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6572270602 The issue is that bio is too good - not that mech is bad. I'm amazed how gluttonous terrans are. You can't have your cake and eat it too. Imagine if I was asking for a phoenix to have the ability to morph into a ground form and be able to go toe to toe with stalkers, all while keeping great air superiority? Sounds absurd? It is. In any case, you guys already got widow mines being seriously op just because you couldn't figure out how to use them effectively in the first two weeks of beta. Come release, those things are going to be seriously op. The other races practically need detection everywhere, and one slip up means a mineral line you just transferred to at your third is gone. Your big units are gone, and packs of small units (due to the new aoe being huge) are gone. God forbid you have to make ghosts to beat out t2 units... Reminds me of how Protoss need to make templars to beat your t1.5 units.
actually pheonix dont need to land to kill ground units, they just pick them up. And strangly pheonixes are kinda good vs stalkers to. I would bet they do better agains stalkers than vikings. Also you can actually harras with them, yes they lose coruptors, but so do vikings.
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On September 23 2012 00:48 Piousflea wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
With all the attention on Tanks and Hellions and Firebattlehellions, you'd think that people would think about one of the other Terran units that has been around for a long time - Ground Vikings.
Ground Vikings are weak. REALLY weak. They weren't always so bad. IIRC at one point in WoL Beta they had 1 Armor and 14 damage and could compete toe-to-toe vs stalkers and hydralisks. Thing is, a usable Ground Viking would actually fill a lot of the holes in HotS Mech.
I think it would be a viable unit with just two changes: - Vikings may use either Mech or Air upgrades, whichever is highest. (this is the big one) - Attack changed from 12 damage to 7x2 damage. This is only a 17% buff against normal units, and not a buff against high-Armor units, but is a 40% buff vs immortal shields.
For consistency it should use the upgrades depending on which mode. Air mode --> air upgrade, ground mode --> ground upgrades.
Even if blizzard doesn't revamp the viking as you proposed they should consider a mech unit with higher attack rate versus damage to mitigate immortal shields, (Probably remade warhound/thor) tanks and hellions are not to good at powering through immortals. Only thors do okay in small numbers.
+ Show Spoiler +Why would a usable Ground Viking fit well with Mech play?1) You'll have a starport anyways, now that medivacs heal your firebattlehellions. 2) Vikings cover the main weakness of mech which is Air.3) Vikings are amazingly supply-efficient. At 150/75/2 they have a 112.5:1 cost:supply ratio which is higher than anything except spellcasters and Banelings (150:1). HotS mech uses a lot of hellions (50:1) and widow mines (50:1) so you really need a supply-efficient unit to make up the difference. 4) Vikings are surprisingly good against Archons. Throw a ball of ground vikings into a ball of archons in Unit Tester. The viking's fast attack busts through shields while its bulky size and Mechanical nature makes the archon's attack highly ineffective. With these changes, Ground Vikings would still be fairly weak and not a unit you'd really want to mass, but you could sprinkle a few into that mid-range crescent in between your hellions and tanks. They would do wonders against Archon and Immortal shields, while making you much less nervous about an air switch. I'm not the first person to think of something similar: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6606901403http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6606432476http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6572270602
I don't think blizz will revamp vikings because they do not want to stire up their balancing from wol, they just want to make their new units balanced with the wol units.
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United Kingdom12021 Posts
I don't think blizz will revamp vikings because they do not want to stire up their balancing from wol, they just want to make their new units balanced with the wol units.
Sorry but that's impossible. You can't just balance the HoTS units, you need to balance the old units to work with the new, not the other way around.
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On September 24 2012 22:25 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +I don't think blizz will revamp vikings because they do not want to stire up their balancing from wol, they just want to make their new units balanced with the wol units. Sorry but that's impossible. You can't just balance the HoTS units, you need to balance the old units to work with the new, not the other way around.
Sure you can.
Swarm host brings no massive complains at the moment.
If battle-cruiser and raven buffs are now considered bugs then that means blizzard will attempt to make as few changes to existing units as possible.
Most likely they'll prefer to leave HotS content on the margin of usability rather then start messing with already existing WoL units.
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Viking are like shiter versions of goliaths. I say increase the ground attack of the viking bit a slight amount. Also, the viking's ground attack should be determined by the mech attack upgrade.
They should also allow ground vikings to be made from factory with a star port requirement
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Viking are used so often in every matchup so i don't really see a reason to buff them.
I would rather prefer to see a new ground AA unit, so that you wouldn't be forced to get vikings every game.
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Even if they did buff the viking ground damage by a small amount, it wouldn't fix the mech problem. All it would do, is make Mechs anti-air far too powerful. Immortals tear through vikings in any amount without even batting an eye and chargelot archon would still rip them to shreds.
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On September 25 2012 00:23 Thrasymachus725 wrote:
Even if they did buff the viking ground damage by a small amount, it wouldn't fix the mech problem. All it would do, is make Mechs anti-air far too powerful. Immortals tear through vikings in any amount without even batting an eye and chargelot archon would still rip them to shreds.
they should change viking to light, it is a fragile unit after all. Might have to make mods for air to even it out against other air units. ground vikings being complimented with battle hellions and tanks can take on zealots and archons decently.
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On September 24 2012 22:25 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +I don't think blizz will revamp vikings because they do not want to stire up their balancing from wol, they just want to make their new units balanced with the wol units. Sorry but that's impossible. You can't just balance the HoTS units, you need to balance the old units to work with the new, not the other way around.
Well, first you can explain why it is impossible?
If swarm host is imbalanced they nerf it instead of buffing wol units. Buffing the wol units could cause some 'balance' issues where it was a 'balanced' situation before so they have to rework even further, and that just take up time.
Which lead to the logical conclusion that they balance the hots units to fit in with the wol units and not the other way around. It saves time to balance new units and not the old.
Doing the other way around would mean reworking the game and reworking stuff is for pre-alpha/alpha now it is beta so they focus on 'balance'.
All the major changes to existing units came pre-alpha/alpha (battlehellions, ultracharge) such feature is up for balance testing in beta if the features/units make the game imbalanced they scrap them. Blizz would not change the other units to make those features balanced. They even scrapped warhound because they realized 'we can not balanced this unit we have to rework it'.
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On September 25 2012 00:28 sona wrote:Show nested quote +On September 25 2012 00:23 Thrasymachus725 wrote:
Even if they did buff the viking ground damage by a small amount, it wouldn't fix the mech problem. All it would do, is make Mechs anti-air far too powerful. Immortals tear through vikings in any amount without even batting an eye and chargelot archon would still rip them to shreds. they should change viking to light, it is a fragile unit after all. Might have to make mods for air to even it out against other air units. ground vikings being complimented with battle hellions and tanks can take on zealots and archons decently.
Rofl, yes please do that... Phoenix don't destroy them enough as is. Also, banelings should blast through them AND battlehellions on the ground. Not to mention hellions need to burn through them like butter.
Why do you want the viking to be light? So they can eat Immortal shots? You have the hellbat for that...
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On September 23 2012 02:20 Fig wrote:
The problem I would say, is that many terran units are very specialized with what they do. Units like the Viking/Banshee/Marauder have such high DPS in their strong area because they are supposed to do one thing really well. The viking ground mode is basically just a little bonus for them, to increase their versatility a bit, like the phoenix's graviton beam.
It would be fine to make them more of an all-around unit by making the ground attack more useful, but you would have to nerf their already very strong air-to-air weapon.
Vikings strong air-to-air and their weak air-to-ground don't have anything in common in ingame situations. They're used for completely different purposes, or rather in the case of ground vikings, very rarely.
If the air move of vikings are fine, but their ground mode is shit, you don't nerf their air mode and buff their ground mode, because that would simply reverse the situation. Terran needs an anti-air and vikings fill that role fine. If you give them a better ground mode on the expense of their current AA they'll just have a new set of problems instead.
Also, graviton beam is used all the time on phoenixes, ground mode on vikings, not as much.
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On September 24 2012 22:34 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2012 22:25 Qikz wrote:I don't think blizz will revamp vikings because they do not want to stire up their balancing from wol, they just want to make their new units balanced with the wol units. Sorry but that's impossible. You can't just balance the HoTS units, you need to balance the old units to work with the new, not the other way around. Sure you can. Swarm host brings no massive complains at the moment. If battle-cruiser and raven buffs are now considered bugs then that means blizzard will attempt to make as few changes to existing units as possible. Most likely they'll prefer to leave HotS content on the margin of usability rather then start messing with already existing WoL units.
I wouldn't be too sure about that.
They did say, they consider changing WoL units, but for the next weeks, they want to focus on the HotS units. Also they said, that it is kind of stupid that the carrier was the only unit that was gone from HotS beta, so they might just keep it in for now, as they want to focus on the new units.
+ Show Spoiler +Rock:
The Carrier is in. We brought it back for several reasons. The biggest reason was that it was currently the only unit still removed from the expansion. Back when I had this crazy plan that we would "cut units and add new ones" we cut a bunch of units.
Over time this plan did not work out. Cut units worked there way back into the mix and finally the only unit that was still cut was the Carrier. It seems weird to cut only one unit from one race. So it's back in. And it's staying. We should have put it back before the beta started but we didn't and the community reminded us how important this was.
+ Show Spoiler +Rock:
We're seeing some community discussion on units that we shipped with Wings of Liberty. Examples include:
Carrier
Thor
Void Ray
Ghost
While we are very willing to change these units down the road we are not focused on them for the next few weeks. We are very interested in what kind of strategies we are introducing with the new beta units as well as what types of balance problems we are creating.
If you ask me, at least some of the BC, Raven changes will return later on to get tested (just not before the HotS units are somewhat complete) and there is also the semi-confirmation that the carrier will get changed. (can't find it right now. Some reddit post, that is a copy from a DK statement in the battle.net "pro forum")
I think they make a valid point with this. The 1.00 version of the beta was basically Terrans playing around with BCs and Ravens and it's really hard for them to get feedback on the new stuff like that, if all comments on the forums are just about mass Ravens and no carriers.
So, if they want to change that, they can still do so later on, but right now it would be interesting to know what spells the oracle should have and how powerful widow mines roughly have to be.
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On September 24 2012 21:19 1yzarc1 wrote:
Vikings are already the bet AA unit in the game, giving them a stronger ground attack would make them too much of a counter to all units, especially against toss
I think this is pretty head on accurate. Thinking about PvT with better vikings just makes me cringe. You would basically see viking packs sniping colossus, then landing and together with the bio army just wipe out every Protoss unit in seconds.
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I would love to see ground vikings using Ground weapons upgrade and Air vikings use Air attack upgrades, not whichever is higher.
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I do have to admit that making the ground Viking more powerful does change the balance of air Vikings. Right now, air Vikings generally win against equal cost of any air unit in the game. (Phoenix's and corruptors fight them to a draw toe to toe, but Vikings have a huge range advantage)
The reason that you often see Vikings lose against corruptors isn't just infestors, although that's a big part of it. It's also that Zerg can over-build corruptors without worrying that they'll have a bunch of useless units. Once the air has been cleaned up, any excess corruptors can morph into BLs. On the other hand a Terran cannot over-build Vikings because he could be left with an army that will lose to straight up ling-festor. If excess Vikings were reasonably able to fight lings, Terrans could build far less tanks and afford far more Vikings. You could argue in favor of decreasing Viking air damage if ground was stronger. (note - decrease its damage, NOT its range. 9 range is the only thing that even gives them a chance vs infestors)
Vikings should NOT be light and should NOT beat ultralisks or immortals in an a-move fight. One unit should not counter every unit in the game. (colossi, BLs and BCs already being very important counters) However, I think the Vike could have a significantly buffed ground mode without being OP. The point isn't that you should be able to beat Protoss with nothing but Vikings and Tanks. The point is that after your Vikings kill some colossi or BLs, the possibility of landing and fighting on the ground should be a realistic threat rather than a joke.
Despite what some people have said, it's absolutely false that vikings will ever beat stalkers 1v1, either in the current game or even with some buffs. For starters, in the current meta game Stalkers will always have an upgrade advantage over Vikings. It's +2 stalkers vs +0 Vikings for much of the game, or +3 vs +1. That's why it really makes sense to allow ground Vikings to use mech upgrades. Vikings in a bio army would be much weaker (rightly so) than Vikings in a mech army.
Even with equal upgrade Vikings:
Stalker: 9 hits (12.96s) to kill Viking
Viking: 14 hits (14s) to kill Stalker
At 7x2 damage: 13 hits (13s) to kill Stalker
Given that a Viking costs 150% as much gas as a Stalker, and the stalker can Blink backward and regenerate shields, it's not even close matchup. Equal gas of stalkers and Vikings are an absolute massacre, as are stalkers with micro.
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EPT
