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On September 23 2012 22:33 CikaZombi wrote:
Vikings are hands down the best anti air in the game. Their range, damage cost and ease of access is incredible. If they did more damage on ground Terran would never lose late game vs Protoss. Ever.
Even now, you always upgrade ship weapons because of colossi, so you actually have upgrades for them and that's not the issue. They beat stalkers handily and do ok vs archons. Their only flaw is their lack of hit points which is understandable since everything else is superb.
I don't think they require a buff in this department.
Vikings do not beat stalkers "handily", nor at all, and their effectiveness against archons is sort of an anomaly, given that the viking doesn't matchup too well against nearly every other protoss ground unit.
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On September 23 2012 22:39 Crawdad wrote:
Why is everyone judging the ground Viking like it's its own unit? Are we gonna complain about tank mode next?
Why not? Terrans complain about everything else. The next thing you know they'll be complaining about uncloaked banshees being too weak compared to cloaked banshees.
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On September 23 2012 01:47 Fig wrote:
This is not a good idea. The viking is already the best air superiority unit in the game. It takes out anything armored with ease, as well as anything that is massive, since those air units are all armored too. And it does this from 9 range, at a low unit cost. As a protoss, I would kill for this unit even if it didn't even have a ground mode.
Now you want to buff the ground damage, so that is deals damage pretty well to everything. Vikings already do this, though it may not seem like it, because people hardly ever use them on the ground (since it's air uses are so amazing). It has 12 ground DPS against everything already, which is a bit less than twice that of a stalker (6.9).
The viking is certainly not a unit that needs any more help. Instead you should be focusing on other units that are actually underused.
ground mode vikings are underused, my man. the ONLY time you ever have them on the ground is when you are taken by surprise by a late game tech switch. the argument to give terran a reason to use them on the ground more is a good one imo
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The balancing act of colossus vs viking will be totally thrown off by this, because if you overproduce vikings you can drop them to the ground and rip shit up.
I remember when vikings beat stalkers in just about every department... thank god those days are over.
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On September 24 2012 08:48 Thrasymachus725 wrote:
The balancing act of colossus vs viking will be totally thrown off by this, because if you overproduce vikings you can drop them to the ground and rip shit up.
I remember when vikings beat stalkers in just about every department... thank god those days are over.
collussus ruin everything -.-
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On September 24 2012 08:54 wcr.4fun wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2012 08:48 Thrasymachus725 wrote:
The balancing act of colossus vs viking will be totally thrown off by this, because if you overproduce vikings you can drop them to the ground and rip shit up.
I remember when vikings beat stalkers in just about every department... thank god those days are over. collussus ruin everything -.-
It definitely seems to. I think the reaver would be stronger... and im not even one of those BW purists that want BW units everywhere. The only return to BW i want is the reaver. Vikings would still have a place, because they can shoot down the shuttle, but would die brutally to scarabs.
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On September 24 2012 08:48 Thrasymachus725 wrote:
The balancing act of colossus vs viking will be totally thrown off by this, because if you overproduce vikings you can drop them to the ground and rip shit up.
I remember when vikings beat stalkers in just about every department... thank god those days are over.
That was my first thought as well. Why would terran make anything but vikings in TvP if they can just one shot all the collosi, and then go down and rape the rest of the protoss force with their extra armor and attack upgrades.
They're supposed to be an air force, and the ground thing is just an extra feature kind of like the phoenix lift. It's not supposed to rape everything (as frequently suggested in this thread).
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Ground vikings in mech would be interesting, I read David Kim said they want to make mech more mobile, but not only with factory units, maybe ground vikings will be the new warhound
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People on here are saying that it will be OP are missing the point. The point is, take a look at when we see ground mode vikings in a dominant nature. (basically anytime you'd see landed vikings in pro games, disregarding after the vikings kill all the collosus or broodlords or other vikings and land because they are flying paperweights) the only one that comes to my mind is to fend off early hellions in early game mech vs mech, or to worker harras that usually ends in the vikings death. the people on here aren't asking for an OP viking that is as strong as a warhound, yes that would be rediculously dumb and op, but rather... a small slight tweak to make it so we actually see the ground mode viking as a more usefull unit. I can't tell you how many times vikings become a 100% required to build unit in a game, and suddenly in about 5 seconds that 100% required to build unit becomes a flying paperweight to an ultralisk tech switch... or a mass zealot warpin...
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On September 23 2012 02:26 avilo wrote:
This would be a good idea. Vikings on the ground suck right now. I think they originally changed viking armor because...of a terrible map pool and trying to balance the game too quickly.
Ever since then vikings on the ground have been bad.
They actually nerfed Viking ground damage in the beta because TvT was Tank Viking, except nobody landed their Vikings anyway.
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I really like the idea of mech upgrades effecting grounded vikings while air upgrades help airborne vikings, and you can make grounded vikings from factories, but require a starport to transform them or use starports to build them already in the air.
so terran would be able to make vikings from factories and starports, and I don't think that's so bad.
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Not a good idea. Would make them super good against everything.
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Interesting idea man, never really thought of that
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While were at it why don't we buff the pheonix so that it can shoot down without having to lift up units so that protoss air will become more viable.... This change would just retarded, you don't want a unit that can do everything, this would just deny any kind of air play from any any of the other races especially if they had extra damage versus light, this wouldn't fix mech it would make mech fukking op against all the races, if you buff the vikings now it will make mech pvt viable perhaps but it will make tvz unbalanced for terran and might even make vikings a viable unit to get even if the opponent isn't going air in tvt.
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On September 24 2012 10:02 Zombo Joe wrote:
They actually nerfed Viking ground damage in the beta because TvT was Tank Viking, except nobody landed their Vikings anyway.
LOL, everybody landed their Vikings because it was the optimal way to crush your opponent back then.
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How about the following changes for Vikings:
- Increase base armor from 0 to 1 (fighter and assault mode)
- Allow Viking to move while lifting and landing.
- Give Assault Mode Vikings cliff jump (effectively they can already do this anyway)
- Allow Viking to move while firing on the ground.
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I actually like this idea,as a masters protoss. Well thought of! Interesting idea to give another mech unit to terran.
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On September 24 2012 08:29 Aveng3r wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2012 01:47 Fig wrote:
This is not a good idea. The viking is already the best air superiority unit in the game. It takes out anything armored with ease, as well as anything that is massive, since those air units are all armored too. And it does this from 9 range, at a low unit cost. As a protoss, I would kill for this unit even if it didn't even have a ground mode.
Now you want to buff the ground damage, so that is deals damage pretty well to everything. Vikings already do this, though it may not seem like it, because people hardly ever use them on the ground (since it's air uses are so amazing). It has 12 ground DPS against everything already, which is a bit less than twice that of a stalker (6.9).
The viking is certainly not a unit that needs any more help. Instead you should be focusing on other units that are actually underused. ground mode vikings are underused, my man. the ONLY time you ever have them on the ground is when you are taken by surprise by a late game tech switch. the argument to give terran a reason to use them on the ground more is a good one imo
IMO, Ground Vikings are underused because other ground units from the Terran army are the best in the game.
They got SCVs, Marines, Marauders, Reapers, Helions, Battle Helions, Tanks, Thors.
There wont be a downside to mass vikings if they did well on the ground too. Unless some other ground unit is nerfed.
The question is not why Ground Vikings are weak. The question is which Terran army would Terrans liked nerfed so the Ground Viking can be buffed?
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On September 24 2012 08:56 Thrasymachus725 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2012 08:54 wcr.4fun wrote:On September 24 2012 08:48 Thrasymachus725 wrote:
The balancing act of colossus vs viking will be totally thrown off by this, because if you overproduce vikings you can drop them to the ground and rip shit up.
I remember when vikings beat stalkers in just about every department... thank god those days are over. collussus ruin everything -.- It definitely seems to. I think the reaver would be stronger... and im not even one of those BW purists that want BW units everywhere. The only return to BW i want is the reaver. Vikings would still have a place, because they can shoot down the shuttle, but would die brutally to scarabs.
Not only that Vikings are very good vs Void Rays and Carriers Vikings would have their place in all matchups and Reavers would fit just fine. Ground Vikings are not that terrible. But switching the ground viking to favor mech upgrades would make them better I don't know if they would fill the "warhound" role but would be close.
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Vikings can attack ground — isn't that good enough? look at zerg — corruptor can't attack ground in any way; at least the phoenix has graviton beam.
Making ground mode vikings stronger offers a real problem where you'll have one unit that can counter anything, be it air units or ground units. vikings are the main anti-air unit for terran, so if they then are also good against ground it'd be pretty bland or even imbalanced.
Ground mode is just a gimmick that gives added-value to the viking; In my opinion it's added-value superior to phoenix's graviton beam or corruptor's corruption. Ground mode vikings don't need to be powerful enough for x, they just need to be able to do damage. In my opinion it's the same sort of deal as infested terrans — a stupid little gimmick that gives added value to the infestor via a terrible and slow ranged unit (personally I'd want it removed from the game though, while not the case with ground-mode viking).
In my opinion the first and/or only changes viking should get is a faster transformation time. I think a faster movement speed but lower range could also be appropriate, but that could possibly mess up the game a bit (would need lots of testing).
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EPT
