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Ground Vikings - Page 6

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 HotS
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SuperYo1000
Profile Joined July 2008
United States880 Posts
September 23 2012 06:46 GMT
#101
just give the ground vikings the haywire missles the warhound had
myRZeth
Profile Joined June 2011
Germany1047 Posts
September 23 2012 06:48 GMT
#102
to be honest i don t think viking ground needs rework/buff
the viking is designed to be an antiair unit, and it s the best in the game
if you would buff viking ground you would also need to buff gravity spell of phoenix and the corrupter
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-23 06:57:06
September 23 2012 06:54 GMT
#103
On September 23 2012 00:48 Piousflea wrote:
With all the attention on Tanks and Hellions and Firebattlehellions, you'd think that people would think about one of the other Terran units that has been around for a long time - Ground Vikings.

Ground Vikings are weak. REALLY weak. They weren't always so bad. IIRC at one point in WoL Beta they had 1 Armor and 14 damage and could compete toe-to-toe vs stalkers and hydralisks. Thing is, a usable Ground Viking would actually fill a lot of the holes in HotS Mech.

What do I mean by usable? I think it would be a viable unit with just two changes:
- Vikings may use either Mech or Air upgrades, whichever is highest. (this is the big one)
- Attack changed from 12 damage to 7x2 damage. This is only a 17% buff against normal units, and not a buff against high-Armor units, but is a 40% buff vs immortal shields.

Why would a usable Ground Viking fit well with Mech play?
1) You'll have a starport anyways, now that medivacs heal your firebattlehellions.

2) Vikings cover the main weakness of mech which is Air.

3) Vikings are amazingly supply-efficient. At 150/75/2 they have a 112.5:1 cost:supply ratio which is higher than anything except spellcasters and Banelings (150:1). HotS mech uses a lot of hellions (50:1) and widow mines (50:1) so you really need a supply-efficient unit to make up the difference.

4) Vikings are surprisingly good against Archons. Throw a ball of ground vikings into a ball of archons in Unit Tester. The viking's fast attack busts through shields while its bulky size and Mechanical nature makes the archon's attack highly ineffective.

With these changes, Ground Vikings would still be fairly weak and not a unit you'd really want to mass, but you could sprinkle a few into that mid-range crescent in between your hellions and tanks. They would do wonders against Archon and Immortal shields, while making you much less nervous about an air switch.

I'm not the first person to think of something similar:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6606901403
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6606432476
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6572270602


Just a small correction to the OP:
Ground Vikings do actually beat speed/range hydralisks in the even supply battle - at least in the 16 vs 16 battle I did twice right now (creep to simulate the speed).

And well, I think there could be some small corrections done to ground viking, but to be honest, there are other units that need a lot of love first, before anyone should consider changing a unit that is being heavily used in nearly every TvT, ZvT and PvT.
Dephy
Profile Joined January 2011
Lithuania163 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-23 08:51:44
September 23 2012 08:50 GMT
#104
On September 23 2012 15:54 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2012 00:48 Piousflea wrote:
With all the attention on Tanks and Hellions and Firebattlehellions, you'd think that people would think about one of the other Terran units that has been around for a long time - Ground Vikings.

Ground Vikings are weak. REALLY weak. They weren't always so bad. IIRC at one point in WoL Beta they had 1 Armor and 14 damage and could compete toe-to-toe vs stalkers and hydralisks. Thing is, a usable Ground Viking would actually fill a lot of the holes in HotS Mech.

What do I mean by usable? I think it would be a viable unit with just two changes:
- Vikings may use either Mech or Air upgrades, whichever is highest. (this is the big one)
- Attack changed from 12 damage to 7x2 damage. This is only a 17% buff against normal units, and not a buff against high-Armor units, but is a 40% buff vs immortal shields.

Why would a usable Ground Viking fit well with Mech play?
1) You'll have a starport anyways, now that medivacs heal your firebattlehellions.

2) Vikings cover the main weakness of mech which is Air.

3) Vikings are amazingly supply-efficient. At 150/75/2 they have a 112.5:1 cost:supply ratio which is higher than anything except spellcasters and Banelings (150:1). HotS mech uses a lot of hellions (50:1) and widow mines (50:1) so you really need a supply-efficient unit to make up the difference.

4) Vikings are surprisingly good against Archons. Throw a ball of ground vikings into a ball of archons in Unit Tester. The viking's fast attack busts through shields while its bulky size and Mechanical nature makes the archon's attack highly ineffective.

With these changes, Ground Vikings would still be fairly weak and not a unit you'd really want to mass, but you could sprinkle a few into that mid-range crescent in between your hellions and tanks. They would do wonders against Archon and Immortal shields, while making you much less nervous about an air switch.

I'm not the first person to think of something similar:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6606901403
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6606432476
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6572270602


Just a small correction to the OP:
Ground Vikings do actually beat speed/range hydralisks in the even supply battle - at least in the 16 vs 16 battle I did twice right now (creep to simulate the speed).

And well, I think there could be some small corrections done to ground viking, but to be honest, there are other units that need a lot of love first, before anyone should consider changing a unit that is being heavily used in nearly every TvT, ZvT and PvT.

grounded viking cost 150-75 cant hit air, moves 2.25. Its one of most cost inefficent units in the game. It doesnt mean anything, that it can beat hidra who cost less per food and now actually in hots got speed buff, can burrow and hit air.
Big J
Profile Joined March 2011
Austria16289 Posts
September 23 2012 08:59 GMT
#105
On September 23 2012 17:50 Dephy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2012 15:54 Big J wrote:
On September 23 2012 00:48 Piousflea wrote:
With all the attention on Tanks and Hellions and Firebattlehellions, you'd think that people would think about one of the other Terran units that has been around for a long time - Ground Vikings.

Ground Vikings are weak. REALLY weak. They weren't always so bad. IIRC at one point in WoL Beta they had 1 Armor and 14 damage and could compete toe-to-toe vs stalkers and hydralisks. Thing is, a usable Ground Viking would actually fill a lot of the holes in HotS Mech.

What do I mean by usable? I think it would be a viable unit with just two changes:
- Vikings may use either Mech or Air upgrades, whichever is highest. (this is the big one)
- Attack changed from 12 damage to 7x2 damage. This is only a 17% buff against normal units, and not a buff against high-Armor units, but is a 40% buff vs immortal shields.

Why would a usable Ground Viking fit well with Mech play?
1) You'll have a starport anyways, now that medivacs heal your firebattlehellions.

2) Vikings cover the main weakness of mech which is Air.

3) Vikings are amazingly supply-efficient. At 150/75/2 they have a 112.5:1 cost:supply ratio which is higher than anything except spellcasters and Banelings (150:1). HotS mech uses a lot of hellions (50:1) and widow mines (50:1) so you really need a supply-efficient unit to make up the difference.

4) Vikings are surprisingly good against Archons. Throw a ball of ground vikings into a ball of archons in Unit Tester. The viking's fast attack busts through shields while its bulky size and Mechanical nature makes the archon's attack highly ineffective.

With these changes, Ground Vikings would still be fairly weak and not a unit you'd really want to mass, but you could sprinkle a few into that mid-range crescent in between your hellions and tanks. They would do wonders against Archon and Immortal shields, while making you much less nervous about an air switch.

I'm not the first person to think of something similar:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6606901403
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6606432476
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6572270602


Just a small correction to the OP:
Ground Vikings do actually beat speed/range hydralisks in the even supply battle - at least in the 16 vs 16 battle I did twice right now (creep to simulate the speed).

And well, I think there could be some small corrections done to ground viking, but to be honest, there are other units that need a lot of love first, before anyone should consider changing a unit that is being heavily used in nearly every TvT, ZvT and PvT.

grounded viking cost 150-75 cant hit air, moves 2.25. Its one of most cost inefficent units in the game. It doesnt mean anything, that it can beat hidra who cost less per food and now actually in hots got speed buff, can burrow and hit air.


I really don't want to discuss hydra vs viking. I just wanted to point out the mistake that the OP made, as he clearly says that vikings cannot go toe-to-toe with hydras in a battle.
Carnate
Profile Joined September 2010
United States62 Posts
September 23 2012 09:03 GMT
#106
Ground vikings do great for what they are. But I do like the idea of mech getting a rapid fire low damage unit. Of course I also believe a hard hitting single target anti air would be useful. Maybe I just miss the goliath.
XenoX101
Profile Joined February 2011
Australia729 Posts
September 23 2012 09:26 GMT
#107
You can't have strong ground vikings unless you remove their ability to transform, it's the trade-off you get for having that kind of flexibility in a unit. Imagine killing off all the colossus of a Protoss army, then landing your vikings and killing off all the stalkers because you do decent ground damage, it's too much flexibility. Also Vikings come out too late to allow Terran to transition safely into Mech, so it doesn't solve the problem the Warhound was intended to solve.
Tenebra
Profile Joined September 2010
Germany19 Posts
September 23 2012 10:00 GMT
#108
A good buff for the viking would be an ground to air attack with small range singletarget and firing both weapons the same time. You can fight of light air units like muta and Phoenix but still need to transform to fight the big air units. And while doing that you tank for your ground units in ground mode. Terran has to be the shooty i solve problems with more gunz army...
TACH StarCraft TACH TACH
CodeskyE
Profile Joined January 2011
United States777 Posts
September 23 2012 11:21 GMT
#109
On September 23 2012 15:54 Big J wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 23 2012 00:48 Piousflea wrote:
With all the attention on Tanks and Hellions and Firebattlehellions, you'd think that people would think about one of the other Terran units that has been around for a long time - Ground Vikings.

Ground Vikings are weak. REALLY weak. They weren't always so bad. IIRC at one point in WoL Beta they had 1 Armor and 14 damage and could compete toe-to-toe vs stalkers and hydralisks. Thing is, a usable Ground Viking would actually fill a lot of the holes in HotS Mech.

What do I mean by usable? I think it would be a viable unit with just two changes:
- Vikings may use either Mech or Air upgrades, whichever is highest. (this is the big one)
- Attack changed from 12 damage to 7x2 damage. This is only a 17% buff against normal units, and not a buff against high-Armor units, but is a 40% buff vs immortal shields.

Why would a usable Ground Viking fit well with Mech play?
1) You'll have a starport anyways, now that medivacs heal your firebattlehellions.

2) Vikings cover the main weakness of mech which is Air.

3) Vikings are amazingly supply-efficient. At 150/75/2 they have a 112.5:1 cost:supply ratio which is higher than anything except spellcasters and Banelings (150:1). HotS mech uses a lot of hellions (50:1) and widow mines (50:1) so you really need a supply-efficient unit to make up the difference.

4) Vikings are surprisingly good against Archons. Throw a ball of ground vikings into a ball of archons in Unit Tester. The viking's fast attack busts through shields while its bulky size and Mechanical nature makes the archon's attack highly ineffective.

With these changes, Ground Vikings would still be fairly weak and not a unit you'd really want to mass, but you could sprinkle a few into that mid-range crescent in between your hellions and tanks. They would do wonders against Archon and Immortal shields, while making you much less nervous about an air switch.

I'm not the first person to think of something similar:
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6606901403
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6606432476
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6572270602


Just a small correction to the OP:
Ground Vikings do actually beat speed/range hydralisks in the even supply battle - at least in the 16 vs 16 battle I did twice right now (creep to simulate the speed).

And well, I think there could be some small corrections done to ground viking, but to be honest, there are other units that need a lot of love first, before anyone should consider changing a unit that is being heavily used in nearly every TvT, ZvT and PvT.




good catch. i didn't know about this myself.
Rassy
Profile Joined August 2010
Netherlands2308 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-23 12:19:18
September 23 2012 12:04 GMT
#110
Hmm viking on asault mode definatly is one of the worst ground units around i have to agree.
Think their dps or the way the upgrades work is not the main isue though, its pretty decent with 12 and not that bad against immortals with only 2 damage wasted against the shield.Upgrades on ground mode give less then +10% damage each, are nullified by a counter armour upgrade and therefor not essential for vikings imo.
Biggest problem i find with landing vikings is that they almost die instantly,landing vikings turns out to be a bad idea 99% of the times you try it.not sure why lol.
Their hp is a bit low for their cost, only 125 hp and they count as armourded.
This is not so much a problem against zerg but against toss with immortal and to a lesser extend stalker, or terran with tanks and marauder its quiet a disadvantage.
Am not sure about blizzards intention with the ground mode btw,maybe their ground mode is only meant as a harras option behind undefended mineral lines, and not so much as an option to use in army battles.
To make them more viable on ground overall they should get more hp in my opinnion and maybe change them to non armoured in ground version.
Dephy
Profile Joined January 2011
Lithuania163 Posts
September 23 2012 12:12 GMT
#111
On September 23 2012 21:04 Rassy wrote:
Hmm viking on asault mode definatly is one of the worst ground units around i have to agree.
Think their dps is not the main isue though, its pretty decent with 12 and not that bad against immortals with only 2 damage wasted against the shield.
Biggest problem i find with landing vikings is that they almost die instantly,landing vikings turns out to be a bad idea 99% of the times you try it.not sure why lol.
Their hp is a bit low for their cost, only 125 hp and they count as armourded.
This is not so much a problem against zerg but against toss with immortal and to a lesser extend stalker its quiet a disadvantage.
To make them viable on ground they should get more hp in my opinnion and maybe change them to non armoured in ground version.

either buffing there ground armor or changing armor type or both would be great. Also move speed is also very terrible, they should have something along the line of stalker movespeed on the ground.
v3chr0
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States856 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-23 12:51:29
September 23 2012 12:45 GMT
#112
I'd definitely be cool with seeing some changes to the Viking. I don't think its nerfs were warranted in the first place, and since then things have been rather dull in comparison to what it was used for prior.

I think endurance/fortitude rather than damage would help it more. Adding damage wouldn't seem to fix anything with it, it can be used to kill immortal shields and plenty of other stuff where its at now. I don't think it should be too powerful of a ground unit considering its proficient in AA and is extremely versatile, but it should definitely be useful as a ground unit; not a waste, last resort, or bm land.

"He catches him with his pants down, backs him off into a corner, and then it's over." - Khaldor
MrSandman
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Australia188 Posts
September 23 2012 13:16 GMT
#113
While I agree that ground vikings are weak I don't think buffing them is the right way to go. Vikings are a really cool unit because they are really good in the air but can also be added to the army in a pinch (such as when a hellion runby is being attempted). If they were buffed though you would suddenly have a fast, mobile harassment force that could also kill air units very efficiently, which would be a nightmare when combined with medivac drops and banshees.

I think it's right for you to have to choose, do I take a utility unit like the viking or do I specialise but spend more resources/supply on multiple units. These decisions are what make terran interesting, instead of just having one unit that does everything. Mind you, blizzard might just buff ground vikings for the sake of it XD
TeamLiquid: Teaching trolls latin since 2002 || Before every post ask yourself, how would I feel if someone else said it? ||
CikaZombi
Profile Joined August 2011
Serbia630 Posts
September 23 2012 13:33 GMT
#114
Vikings are hands down the best anti air in the game. Their range, damage cost and ease of access is incredible. If they did more damage on ground Terran would never lose late game vs Protoss. Ever.

Even now, you always upgrade ship weapons because of colossi, so you actually have upgrades for them and that's not the issue. They beat stalkers handily and do ok vs archons. Their only flaw is their lack of hit points which is understandable since everything else is superb.

I don't think they require a buff in this department.
You can no more evade my wrath, than you could your own shadow.
Crawdad
Profile Joined September 2012
614 Posts
September 23 2012 13:39 GMT
#115
Why is everyone judging the ground Viking like it's its own unit? Are we gonna complain about tank mode next?
MoonCricket
Profile Joined September 2011
222 Posts
September 23 2012 14:13 GMT
#116
I've mentioned it several times before, but giving Viking Assault Mode a greater role in Mech in order to defend vs Chargelots would be preferable to Battle Hellions as things are. Just letting Viking Assault Mode benefit from Vehicle Upgrades is already a step in the right direction, but they could do the same thing with Assault Mode as they did with Battle Hellion Mode and just give the Assault Mode a +50% HP buff.
baeric
Profile Joined October 2010
Germany649 Posts
September 23 2012 14:24 GMT
#117
Yeah finally it would be used. Only small zergling harassment they could help.
TheOGBlitzKrieg
Profile Joined June 2010
United States346 Posts
September 23 2012 14:53 GMT
#118
I Like what people mentioned here about the combined mechanical upgrade for both air and mech, with HOTS out it's something blizzard could mess around with, but i'm not sure it would work out quite right for bc's and banshee's. I think having the viking in ground mode benefit from mech upgrades would be a solid answer to buffing it in ground mode, along with some small tweaking this could be the "warhound" they were looking for, not in a completely OP warhound way like the original hound was, but if tweaked correctly the viking may infact be a solid ground to ground that helps out mech. maybe give it some sort of upgrade, or for that matter, fix the upgrades in the game that are pretty much useless/ seen in maybe 2% of all games played like 250mm Strike cannon, tweaking this upgrade into something mech friendly/usefull and tweaking the viking could perhaps bridge the gap in a TvP mech scenario.
kcdc
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States2311 Posts
September 23 2012 19:25 GMT
#119
Ground vikings are supposed to be bad. Asking for them to be good is like asking phoenixes to hit ground or mutas to trade evenly with marines. Every unit needs some sort of weakness. A unit that beats everything in the air and is also strong on the ground has no downside for building it, which in turn means there's no decision to make.
GoldenH
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
1115 Posts
September 23 2012 19:42 GMT
#120
On September 23 2012 23:13 MoonCricket wrote:
I've mentioned it several times before, but giving Viking Assault Mode a greater role in Mech in order to defend vs Chargelots would be preferable to Battle Hellions as things are. Just letting Viking Assault Mode benefit from Vehicle Upgrades is already a step in the right direction, but they could do the same thing with Assault Mode as they did with Battle Hellion Mode and just give the Assault Mode a +50% HP buff.


This would be ridiculous, Assualt mode already beats stalkers and hydra, if you add 50% hp buff when landed they will beat literally everything except immortals and infestors.
"(Dudes are) not going to say "Buy this game — I cried at the end". (...) I suppose the secret is to find a game that makes you shoot eight million fuckin' dudes and then cry about how awesome it is to shoot eight million fuckin' dudes." - Tim Rogers
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