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On September 16 2012 06:45 avilo wrote:
No. TvT doesn't need a "fix" because it's the best match-up in the game already. Why does blizzard hate the tank so much? Why does there have to be 50 counters to the siege tank?
There does not need to be another counter to the siege tank!!! Stop it people!!! TvT is fine!
TvP can work if they use the stuff at their disposal and make it good! The widow mine! No supply! The battle hellion! Accessible to mech!
Stop asking for more counters to the siege tank! Everything already counters it! There is no "siege tank problem" or TvT problem. It's the most dynamic and best skilled match-up already!!!!
Couldn't agree more.
I hate how blizzard talk about making mech viable, but then say they are introducing a heap of new counters to tanks. (just to make sure no one goes mech)
In regards to the widow mine, for it to see use and be viable it really has to be OP, it has to be the unit that zerg whines about for a year before they just get used to it.
Look at brood war, mines where 25mins each, cloaked, early, really powerful and came with a free vulture. If you took your army through a mine field you lost the game.
The widow mine has to be the same, OP, but countered by detection, or by running cost effective units through the mine fields in advance to remove all the mines (zealots, lings)
OT, lockdown could work, not sure what unit I would put it on though. If it was on the ghost we would probably see more nuke play as well.
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On September 16 2012 06:45 avilo wrote:
No. TvT doesn't need a "fix" because it's the best match-up in the game already. Why does blizzard hate the tank so much? Why does there have to be 50 counters to the siege tank?
There does not need to be another counter to the siege tank!!! Stop it people!!! TvT is fine!
TvP can work if they use the stuff at their disposal and make it good! The widow mine! No supply! The battle hellion! Accessible to mech!
Stop asking for more counters to the siege tank! Everything already counters it! There is no "siege tank problem" or TvT problem. It's the most dynamic and best skilled match-up already!!!!
Exactly! I don't know why there's countless threads about replacing the warhound. Getting rid of the warhound was probably the greatest achievement in HOTS as of yet in my opinion. Like what Avilo said, there's absolutely nothing wrong with TVT right. As of lately it's been proven to be the the most skilled and well played match up in any Starcraft2. Ask anyone about the recent TVT matches and they will say it's perhaps some of the best games they've seen in awhile. Positional play! POSITIONAL PLAY! That's what at risk here and not the same ol "turtle,take bases, minimum harass,upgrades,200 defining moment battle. BUFF the tank already and let Browder know the core for mech is the TANK!! For those worried about TVZ you will be fine. Besides you have many units i'm sure that can dodge the tank.
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I really like the idea of lockdown replacing strike cannons for thors. The cost, size, and speed of the Thor will limit it from being too easy to spam, making a good tank line still the kind of the jungle in TvT, but it will do a lot for PvT. Lockdowns for big units like colossi and immortals (and even air like carriers/tempests) becomes a real possibility making mech much more viable.
I still think we'd need 1-supply widow mines as well for better board control considering the continued immobility, but I really think it could work. It's not like Strike cannons are particularly useful or utilized as it is anyways, it would be a much stronger replacement skill.
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I actually like this idea for TvT, not because it counters Siege Tanks, but because it gives a counter to Battlecruisers that comes from the ground.
Makes Ghosts more useful in TvT, because they would obviously be the counter to whatever Mech unit had the ability in the first place.
Lockdown would be a pretty awesome tool for TvP though. Gives a solid answer to Collosus and Immortals in the late game.
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On September 16 2012 13:05 Danzo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 06:45 avilo wrote:
No. TvT doesn't need a "fix" because it's the best match-up in the game already. Why does blizzard hate the tank so much? Why does there have to be 50 counters to the siege tank?
There does not need to be another counter to the siege tank!!! Stop it people!!! TvT is fine!
TvP can work if they use the stuff at their disposal and make it good! The widow mine! No supply! The battle hellion! Accessible to mech!
Stop asking for more counters to the siege tank! Everything already counters it! There is no "siege tank problem" or TvT problem. It's the most dynamic and best skilled match-up already!!!! Exactly! I don't know why there's countless threads about replacing the warhound. Getting rid of the warhound was probably the greatest achievement in HOTS as of yet in my opinion. Like what Avilo said, there's absolutely nothing wrong with TVT right. As of lately it's been proven to be the the most skilled and well played match up in any Starcraft2. Ask anyone about the recent TVT matches and they will say it's perhaps some of the best games they've seen in awhile. Positional play! POSITIONAL PLAY! That's what at risk here and not the same ol "turtle,take bases, minimum harass,upgrades,200 defining moment battle. BUFF the tank already and let Browder know the core for mech is the TANK!! For those worried about TVZ you will be fine. Besides you have many units i'm sure that can dodge the tank. I really don't think you lose anything in TvT with lockdown as long as you make the unit role fragile. It would still maintain the dynamic (and skill) nature of TvT, but would add a new twist and excitement to the game as well as making it much more interesting to watch. However, where it's real potential is, is against protoss making mech much more viable without completely breaking the matchup.
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I don't think lockdown is a good idea because it is literally the most micro removing spell possible, which is what everyone complains about anyway. At least fungaled units can attack, but a locked-down unit just sits there, does nothing, and still takes damage.
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On September 16 2012 13:49 p1cKLes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 13:05 Danzo wrote:On September 16 2012 06:45 avilo wrote:
No. TvT doesn't need a "fix" because it's the best match-up in the game already. Why does blizzard hate the tank so much? Why does there have to be 50 counters to the siege tank?
There does not need to be another counter to the siege tank!!! Stop it people!!! TvT is fine!
TvP can work if they use the stuff at their disposal and make it good! The widow mine! No supply! The battle hellion! Accessible to mech!
Stop asking for more counters to the siege tank! Everything already counters it! There is no "siege tank problem" or TvT problem. It's the most dynamic and best skilled match-up already!!!! Exactly! I don't know why there's countless threads about replacing the warhound. Getting rid of the warhound was probably the greatest achievement in HOTS as of yet in my opinion. Like what Avilo said, there's absolutely nothing wrong with TVT right. As of lately it's been proven to be the the most skilled and well played match up in any Starcraft2. Ask anyone about the recent TVT matches and they will say it's perhaps some of the best games they've seen in awhile. Positional play! POSITIONAL PLAY! That's what at risk here and not the same ol "turtle,take bases, minimum harass,upgrades,200 defining moment battle. BUFF the tank already and let Browder know the core for mech is the TANK!! For those worried about TVZ you will be fine. Besides you have many units i'm sure that can dodge the tank. I really don't think you lose anything in TvT with lockdown as long as you make the unit role fragile. It would still maintain the dynamic (and skill) nature of TvT, but would add a new twist and excitement to the game as well as making it much more interesting to watch. However, where it's real potential is, is against protoss making mech much more viable without completely breaking the matchup.
I don't know. I don't see anything exciting about the unit other than it's microless and very gimmiky.
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I miss lockdown.... versus protoss. But I wouldn't waste gas on it in TvT. And as much as I like the spell, I don't think it has a place anymore in sc2. TvT is already the most dynamic matchup of them all and doesn't need it, and I don't think the mech woes vs protoss will be solved by lockdown. Immortals aren't really the biggest issue with ghosts to emp them, chargelot archon is far more dangerous.
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Let me state one thing.
Lockdown is a VERY powerful ability in isolation. Most of its strength is, of course, what units can use it and what they end up using it on. If the unit that gets it ends up being a reasonable unit to grab a few of (unlike the BW Ghost), then it becomes a very good idea to get some to lock down Colossi. This means that in mid-lategame TvP situations, the Terran no longer has to rely on high Viking counts to handle Colossi. Instead, they can just mix in a few of these casters and stop the Colossi dead without having to spend way more supply on Vikings than the Protoss has to on Colossi. This could push a lot of engagements WAY in the favor of Terran. Something would need to get buffed on the Protoss side, and chances are that would have to be Storm. Alternatively, maybe the Oracle shield would be able to do the job.
With that said, I'd very much like to see Lockdown implemented. Anything to get Colossi into the category of "niche AOE timing" and bring Storms back into the level of awesome power.
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this is actually a pretty interesting idea
remove auto turret from the game and give lockdown to the raven
there aren't very many good reasons to build ravens vs protoss outside of 1/1/1 all-in, and auto turret is mostly an "oh no, i don't have point defense drone ready yet" spell
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On September 16 2012 17:38 Zanno wrote:
this is actually a pretty interesting idea
remove auto turret from the game and give lockdown to the raven
there aren't very many good reasons to build ravens vs protoss outside of 1/1/1 all-in, and auto turret is mostly an "oh no, i don't have point defense drone ready yet" spell
I was thinking the same, raven need to be used more, give it lockdown... Its a win win really.
Just need to give it a speed boost also so vikings cant kill them to fast.
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Lockdown seems to be like contaminate for mech units. I like the idea but I worry about the effect on Immortals, which should be able to trade efficiently against mech early but be less cost effective as the mech army develops. Having Lockdown stun while also preventing attacks seems a little too strong; I'd rather have something like reverse fungal growth, where you can't attack but you can move, which basically has no effect on tank wars compared to the OP and doesn't absolutely crush every protoss combination except for zealot/archon.
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Why would we need another counter to tanks ? Literally every HotS units was presented as countering tanks - just look at the video previews --'
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On September 16 2012 17:08 Acritter wrote:
Let me state one thing.
Lockdown is a VERY powerful ability in isolation. Most of its strength is, of course, what units can use it and what they end up using it on. If the unit that gets it ends up being a reasonable unit to grab a few of (unlike the BW Ghost), then it becomes a very good idea to get some to lock down Colossi. This means that in mid-lategame TvP situations, the Terran no longer has to rely on high Viking counts to handle Colossi. Instead, they can just mix in a few of these casters and stop the Colossi dead without having to spend way more supply on Vikings than the Protoss has to on Colossi. This could push a lot of engagements WAY in the favor of Terran. Something would need to get buffed on the Protoss side, and chances are that would have to be Storm. Alternatively, maybe the Oracle shield would be able to do the job.
With that said, I'd very much like to see Lockdown implemented. Anything to get Colossi into the category of "niche AOE timing" and bring Storms back into the level of awesome power.
Some good points...
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On September 16 2012 17:38 Zanno wrote:
this is actually a pretty interesting idea
remove auto turret from the game and give lockdown to the raven
there aren't very many good reasons to build ravens vs protoss outside of 1/1/1 all-in, and auto turret is mostly an "oh no, i don't have point defense drone ready yet" spell
i like it, raven need more love
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On September 16 2012 19:08 ArcticRaven wrote:
Why would we need another counter to tanks ? Literally every HotS units was presented as countering tanks - just look at the video previews --' I know there is a lot of debate about how this would affect TvT, but I don't think it would affect TvT so much that it would take away from tank battles. You would also have an easy counter to the unit as long as the unit role was fragile. As far as being a counter to tank, most of the races do have a counter to tanks, but this would only be isolated to TvT, which I think would be easy enough to counter if you gave it to the right unit, but would be enough of a threat to make it very interesting creating more micro in my opinion.
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On September 16 2012 17:38 Zanno wrote:
this is actually a pretty interesting idea
remove auto turret from the game and give lockdown to the raven
there aren't very many good reasons to build ravens vs protoss outside of 1/1/1 all-in, and auto turret is mostly an "oh no, i don't have point defense drone ready yet" spell I was thinking possibly in addition, but now that I think about it, I like your idea better.
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United Kingdom12021 Posts
I'd rather the Raven get D-Matrix. Such a good spell for mech and I'd love to have it again.
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On September 17 2012 04:50 Qikz wrote:
I'd rather the Raven get D-Matrix. Such a good spell for mech and I'd love to have it again. Definitely a good spell too.
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On September 16 2012 06:45 avilo wrote:
No. TvT doesn't need a "fix" because it's the best match-up in the game already. Why does blizzard hate the tank so much? Why does there have to be 50 counters to the siege tank?
There does not need to be another counter to the siege tank!!! Stop it people!!! TvT is fine!
TvP can work if they use the stuff at their disposal and make it good! The widow mine! No supply! The battle hellion! Accessible to mech!
Stop asking for more counters to the siege tank! Everything already counters it! There is no "siege tank problem" or TvT problem. It's the most dynamic and best skilled match-up already!!!!
Agreed.
If anything, TvT should be left as it is. It is a very diverse and complex matchup already, which allows almost every unit to be built and actually be of substantial use.
The new "warhound-replacement" shouldnt really be made for siege line busts. There are ways to break a siege line, thors, nukes, cloak banshee-viking micro, medivac drops on tanks to name a few.
The new unit in my opinion should be centered towards mech TvP and maybe to help a bit vs TvZ, although a raven buff will clearly deal with TvZ right there and then.
Also the upgrade in the starport techlab that gives extended duration on the seeker, pdd and autoturret should be removed and inputted into the Raven as-is. "Durable materials" I think it's called.
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EPT
