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I am going to get straight to the point without hopefully making this a TL;DR thread. For us beta testers, we can all agree that the Warhound just didn't work. The original intention of the Warhound was to address primarily two concerns:
1. To help make mech more viable in TvP.
2. To help break siege lines in TvT.
However, the reality was:
1. It overlap in roles with the marauder.
2. It was a microless 1A unit which created a mechball that didn't take any micro to use.
3. It was too good of an all around unit.
4. It took away from Bio, because it was an early game unit. There was really no need to make marines and marauders when you could make the warhound.
5. It took away from tanks.
6.Supply effective.
These were some of the issues, and I am sure some of these can be argued either way, but the general consensus was the WH in its current version was NOT working.
So now fast forward and one patch later, we no longer have the WH. However, we are still in need of something that fills the gap and addresses TvT & TvP meeting these objectives.
1. Involves some micro and does not create a Terran 1A mechball. Keeping in tradition with the amount of micro involved in BW and WoL.
2. Helps break siege lines, but isn't too effective.
3. Makes mech more viable in TvP
4. Isn't too much of an all around good unit, which has strengths and weaknesses that provide a razor's edge allowing you to out micro the situation. Either being victorious or falling on your face based on your skill set. This helps create replayability and watchability as pointed out in Orb's thread -http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=367581
So as the title of my thread alludes to, the ability is Lockdown. This could (not where my strength lies) be used with:
Raven, where I feel it is the most appropriate. Get rid of the Auto Turret and give it Lockdown, which encourages more Raven play. Additionally, it's a fragile enough of a unit that it doesn't become to powerful and it can be countered reasonably. You also give the thor a min-buff by getting rid of the 250MM cannons so HT's can't feedback it.
Thor, but tweak it and actually make it useful. However I still think it would be problematic as in WoL.
Ghost so you have to choose between EMP and Lockdown against Protoss.
The numbers and unit, will have to be played with to ensure it's not too powerful. I think it should probably be a mid-game unit, because it would be too powerful against Terran and Protoss early game. It can be similar to Lockdown in BW or a variation thereof. I'm going to draw you a picture which helps you see why Lockdown would work.
TvP:
With good micro, you can lockdown his units in order to be taken out by mech. One of the biggest problems that mech faces is its easy for Protoss to counter tanks and mech in general with zealots, blink stalkers, immortals, etc. The other is Protoss is much more mobile than the mech army. With lockdown you can combat this on all levels. Let's say he's dancing back and forth with his deathball you lock down a few units as he pulls back. That gives enough time for a non-mobile mech army to do its damage. Let's say he goes for it and tries to take out your mech, you decide to lockdown his immortals knowing those are the most dangerous because Immortals are the counter to mech. It doesn't typically take much for immortals to clean up the army, but if they are on lockdown it's a different story. The tanks continue to bombard those hardened shields leveling the playing field, or even more interesting blink stalkers. You go for the blink, but what you didn't realize was was 4 or 5 blink stalkers just got put on lockdown and didn't blink anywhere. The ones that did blink do some nice damage, but not enough to take out the entire mech army. For the ones that got lockdown, they are either get taken out or blink the hell out of there. Now you would have to ensure that it wasn't an early game unit, because it would be too powerful. You would also have to make it where Terran couldn't just mass these units to lockdown Protoss's entire army over and over. You would have to play with the radius, supply, energy and cost to help minimize the amount of units and times you can cast it. This might be where the ghost should have it making the user choose between EMP or Lockdown (could be interesting in TvT as well). Again I think you want to have that "razor's edge" allowing you the opportunity to out micro the situation or frankly fall on your face.
TvT:
You and your opponent are engaged in a chess game of tanks and vikings. You both have siege lines that spread across the map. You are at a stand still and you are not sure what to do. You decide to go for the left flank throwing down Lockdown, which locksdown maybe 1-3 tanks for x amount of time. This allows you to do one of two things. You can push a Thor forward with its massive HP and take out those three tanks, or you can have 4 or 5 siege tanks on standby. After throwing down the lock down you move your siege tanks into position killing those 3 tanks. This creates a much faster paced TvT tank battle to help effectively remove the standstill. This also allows your opponent if he's paying attention to unsiege his tanks and resiege taking out your tanks. This creates that "razors edge" and the opportunity to out micro the situation while speeding up siege tank battles.
This in both matchups adds an entire different dimension to the game as well as the Terran army in general. I think it also provides replayability and watchability, because you will be dying to learn how to micro & cast it right, but you will also be on the edge of your seat (similar to banelings bombs) hoping your favorite pro can pull it off.
**Edit** To Avilo's point - I think you would ABSOLUTELY maintain the dynamic and skill aspect of TvT tank battles, but would add a new twist and excitement to it as long as you made the unit role fragile, which would give you the opportunity to out micro the situation. This would also speed up tank battles just by a little bit and make it much more exciting to watch. However, where its real potential is, is in TvP making mech much more viable. Obviously, as in BW, it has other potential uses that would add a whole new dynamic to the race. Additionally, it wouldn't "really" change TvT as a variation of Lockdown already exists with the Thor. You would just make it useful.
**Edit** Zanno brought up an idea that I thought was worth considering. Give it to the raven. Take away auto turret and give it lockdown, which would encourage us to play with the raven more and at the same time greatly help TvP. Another good point by gingerali1 "I like the idea of having lockdown on the raven, i don't think this would ruin TvT as vikings are present most of the time anyways, and i think it help in TvP. Plus Protoss have ways to deal with it, feedback and there new dispell type ablitiy."
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No. TvT doesn't need a "fix" because it's the best match-up in the game already. Why does blizzard hate the tank so much? Why does there have to be 50 counters to the siege tank?
There does not need to be another counter to the siege tank!!! Stop it people!!! TvT is fine!
TvP can work if they use the stuff at their disposal and make it good! The widow mine! No supply! The battle hellion! Accessible to mech!
Stop asking for more counters to the siege tank! Everything already counters it! There is no "siege tank problem" or TvT problem. It's the most dynamic and best skilled match-up already!!!!
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On September 16 2012 06:45 avilo wrote:
TvP can work if they use the stuff at their disposal and make it good! The widow mine! No supply! The battle hellion! Accessible to mech!
0 supply mines would wreak havoc on balance. Overseer Widow Mines. A limited # of 0 supply mines on some unit would not.
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On September 16 2012 06:45 avilo wrote:
No. TvT doesn't need a "fix" because it's the best match-up in the game already. Why does blizzard hate the tank so much? Why does there have to be 50 counters to the siege tank?
There does not need to be another counter to the siege tank!!! Stop it people!!! TvT is fine!
TvP can work if they use the stuff at their disposal and make it good! The widow mine! No supply! The battle hellion! Accessible to mech!
Stop asking for more counters to the siege tank! Everything already counters it! There is no "siege tank problem" or TvT problem. It's the most dynamic and best skilled match-up already!!!!
I agree with avilo. Personally I believe the siege tank needs a buff in damage to make it less forgiving as its supposed to be like that.
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On September 16 2012 06:45 avilo wrote:
No. TvT doesn't need a "fix" because it's the best match-up in the game already. Why does blizzard hate the tank so much? Why does there have to be 50 counters to the siege tank?
There does not need to be another counter to the siege tank!!! Stop it people!!! TvT is fine!
TvP can work if they use the stuff at their disposal and make it good! The widow mine! No supply! The battle hellion! Accessible to mech!
Stop asking for more counters to the siege tank! Everything already counters it! There is no "siege tank problem" or TvT problem. It's the most dynamic and best skilled match-up already!!!! Thank you for stopping by and expressing your opinion!!!! Not sure if I agree!!!! But I will take it under advisement!!!! I'm always open to other people's views!!!! lol...
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I've always liked the idea of Lockdown being in the game, if anything, it would make TvT tank wars much less drawn out, more fast paced and exciting to watch and play out.
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On September 16 2012 07:12 Anthonie wrote:
I've always liked the idea of Lockdown being in the game, if anything, it would make TvT tank wars much less drawn out, more fast paced and exciting to watch and play out. I agree. You would still retain the dynamic aspect of TvT and tank battles, but would add a new twist and excitement to it as long as you made the unit fragile, which would give you the opportunity to out micro the situation.
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Lock down would just be another of those forcefield/fungal style spells that stops micro on units. I don't think that's what the game really needs right now. I would say that anything that stops micro is bad.
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Lockdown will even further encouge your opponent to go a deathball play, splitting your army would make valuable units very vulnerable to being picked off by lock down.
Also, wouldn't phase shield just counter lockdown if it makes it to release?
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The BH is still accessible to mech. Factory + Armory, 100 minerals, 2 supply... Ain't bad.
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for it to be used with mech and work like you want you need it to be a more mineral heavy unit
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Tanks are fine in TvT. Theres nothing wrong with tank lines as it adds alot of decision making to the matchup.
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On September 16 2012 06:54 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 06:45 avilo wrote:
TvP can work if they use the stuff at their disposal and make it good! The widow mine! No supply! The battle hellion! Accessible to mech! 0 supply mines would wreak havoc on balance. Overseer Widow Mines. A limited # of 0 supply mines on some unit would not.
Spider mine -> it's been beta tested for 12 years aka brood war. It does not have a supply restriction on the unit itself...and it made brood war one of the best games ever? So wreak havoc on balance. Bullshit.
Don't know if you don't try.
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Interesting Idea it might be worth Blizzards time to explore this. Maybe it goes to the Warhound (it is anti-mechanical after all) maybe not but it is an interesting idea. (They are, after all, basically bringing in a bunch of BW spells retooled anyways)
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On September 16 2012 11:27 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 06:54 Cloak wrote:On September 16 2012 06:45 avilo wrote:
TvP can work if they use the stuff at their disposal and make it good! The widow mine! No supply! The battle hellion! Accessible to mech! 0 supply mines would wreak havoc on balance. Overseer Widow Mines. A limited # of 0 supply mines on some unit would not. Spider mine -> it's been beta tested for 12 years aka brood war. It does not have a supply restriction on the unit itself...and it made brood war one of the best games ever? So wreak havoc on balance. Bullshit. Don't know if you don't try.
I know unlimited army power at max supply is a bad idea. And yea it was tested by BW and it worked out great. Only problem was that it was gasless.
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On September 16 2012 11:39 Cloak wrote:
I know unlimited army power at max supply is a bad idea.
Blizz will just attach it to a "minelayer" unit that costs supply and resources. No biggie.
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On September 16 2012 07:00 LgNKami wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 06:45 avilo wrote:
No. TvT doesn't need a "fix" because it's the best match-up in the game already. Why does blizzard hate the tank so much? Why does there have to be 50 counters to the siege tank?
There does not need to be another counter to the siege tank!!! Stop it people!!! TvT is fine!
TvP can work if they use the stuff at their disposal and make it good! The widow mine! No supply! The battle hellion! Accessible to mech!
Stop asking for more counters to the siege tank! Everything already counters it! There is no "siege tank problem" or TvT problem. It's the most dynamic and best skilled match-up already!!!! I agree with avilo. Personally I believe the siege tank needs a buff in damage to make it less forgiving as its supposed to be like that.
You can't simply buff the Siege Tank's damage. Any significant buff in damage will make the already highly challenging 1-1-1 nearly impossible to beat. Any buff to Siege Tanks requires a nerf to Marines--or, to be more precise, a nerf to Marines used in combination with Siege Tanks.
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On September 16 2012 11:49 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 07:00 LgNKami wrote:On September 16 2012 06:45 avilo wrote:
No. TvT doesn't need a "fix" because it's the best match-up in the game already. Why does blizzard hate the tank so much? Why does there have to be 50 counters to the siege tank?
There does not need to be another counter to the siege tank!!! Stop it people!!! TvT is fine!
TvP can work if they use the stuff at their disposal and make it good! The widow mine! No supply! The battle hellion! Accessible to mech!
Stop asking for more counters to the siege tank! Everything already counters it! There is no "siege tank problem" or TvT problem. It's the most dynamic and best skilled match-up already!!!! I agree with avilo. Personally I believe the siege tank needs a buff in damage to make it less forgiving as its supposed to be like that. You can't simply buff the Siege Tank's damage. Any significant buff in damage will make the already highly challenging 1-1-1 nearly impossible to beat. Any buff to Siege Tanks requires a nerf to Marines--or, to be more precise, a nerf to Marines used in combination with Siege Tanks.
Does the Mothership core help in defending 1-1-1, making it easier to defend? I would assume so, but haven't seen enough to judge.
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On September 16 2012 09:25 MasterCynical wrote:
Lockdown will even further encouge your opponent to go a deathball play, splitting your army would make valuable units very vulnerable to being picked off by lock down.
Also, wouldn't phase shield just counter lockdown if it makes it to release? Unfortunately, given the current game design, I don't know that we can ever get away from deathball play. The only way I see this happening is if they limit the amount of units per control group.Similar to Warcraft 2 and 3. It's also one of the reasons you didn't have deathball play in BW.
It might, but it would be similar to storm and EMP constantly fighting back and forth making the game that much more interesting.
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On September 16 2012 11:39 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 11:27 avilo wrote:On September 16 2012 06:54 Cloak wrote:On September 16 2012 06:45 avilo wrote:
TvP can work if they use the stuff at their disposal and make it good! The widow mine! No supply! The battle hellion! Accessible to mech! 0 supply mines would wreak havoc on balance. Overseer Widow Mines. A limited # of 0 supply mines on some unit would not. Spider mine -> it's been beta tested for 12 years aka brood war. It does not have a supply restriction on the unit itself...and it made brood war one of the best games ever? So wreak havoc on balance. Bullshit. Don't know if you don't try. I know unlimited army power at max supply is a bad idea.
There are alredy things like that in WoL. Spine and Spore Clawlers. They can be very usefull, but hardly game breaking...
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On September 16 2012 06:45 avilo wrote:
No. TvT doesn't need a "fix" because it's the best match-up in the game already. Why does blizzard hate the tank so much? Why does there have to be 50 counters to the siege tank?
There does not need to be another counter to the siege tank!!! Stop it people!!! TvT is fine!
TvP can work if they use the stuff at their disposal and make it good! The widow mine! No supply! The battle hellion! Accessible to mech!
Stop asking for more counters to the siege tank! Everything already counters it! There is no "siege tank problem" or TvT problem. It's the most dynamic and best skilled match-up already!!!!
Couldn't agree more.
I hate how blizzard talk about making mech viable, but then say they are introducing a heap of new counters to tanks. (just to make sure no one goes mech)
In regards to the widow mine, for it to see use and be viable it really has to be OP, it has to be the unit that zerg whines about for a year before they just get used to it.
Look at brood war, mines where 25mins each, cloaked, early, really powerful and came with a free vulture. If you took your army through a mine field you lost the game.
The widow mine has to be the same, OP, but countered by detection, or by running cost effective units through the mine fields in advance to remove all the mines (zealots, lings)
OT, lockdown could work, not sure what unit I would put it on though. If it was on the ghost we would probably see more nuke play as well.
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On September 16 2012 06:45 avilo wrote:
No. TvT doesn't need a "fix" because it's the best match-up in the game already. Why does blizzard hate the tank so much? Why does there have to be 50 counters to the siege tank?
There does not need to be another counter to the siege tank!!! Stop it people!!! TvT is fine!
TvP can work if they use the stuff at their disposal and make it good! The widow mine! No supply! The battle hellion! Accessible to mech!
Stop asking for more counters to the siege tank! Everything already counters it! There is no "siege tank problem" or TvT problem. It's the most dynamic and best skilled match-up already!!!!
Exactly! I don't know why there's countless threads about replacing the warhound. Getting rid of the warhound was probably the greatest achievement in HOTS as of yet in my opinion. Like what Avilo said, there's absolutely nothing wrong with TVT right. As of lately it's been proven to be the the most skilled and well played match up in any Starcraft2. Ask anyone about the recent TVT matches and they will say it's perhaps some of the best games they've seen in awhile. Positional play! POSITIONAL PLAY! That's what at risk here and not the same ol "turtle,take bases, minimum harass,upgrades,200 defining moment battle. BUFF the tank already and let Browder know the core for mech is the TANK!! For those worried about TVZ you will be fine. Besides you have many units i'm sure that can dodge the tank.
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I really like the idea of lockdown replacing strike cannons for thors. The cost, size, and speed of the Thor will limit it from being too easy to spam, making a good tank line still the kind of the jungle in TvT, but it will do a lot for PvT. Lockdowns for big units like colossi and immortals (and even air like carriers/tempests) becomes a real possibility making mech much more viable.
I still think we'd need 1-supply widow mines as well for better board control considering the continued immobility, but I really think it could work. It's not like Strike cannons are particularly useful or utilized as it is anyways, it would be a much stronger replacement skill.
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I actually like this idea for TvT, not because it counters Siege Tanks, but because it gives a counter to Battlecruisers that comes from the ground.
Makes Ghosts more useful in TvT, because they would obviously be the counter to whatever Mech unit had the ability in the first place.
Lockdown would be a pretty awesome tool for TvP though. Gives a solid answer to Collosus and Immortals in the late game.
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On September 16 2012 13:05 Danzo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 06:45 avilo wrote:
No. TvT doesn't need a "fix" because it's the best match-up in the game already. Why does blizzard hate the tank so much? Why does there have to be 50 counters to the siege tank?
There does not need to be another counter to the siege tank!!! Stop it people!!! TvT is fine!
TvP can work if they use the stuff at their disposal and make it good! The widow mine! No supply! The battle hellion! Accessible to mech!
Stop asking for more counters to the siege tank! Everything already counters it! There is no "siege tank problem" or TvT problem. It's the most dynamic and best skilled match-up already!!!! Exactly! I don't know why there's countless threads about replacing the warhound. Getting rid of the warhound was probably the greatest achievement in HOTS as of yet in my opinion. Like what Avilo said, there's absolutely nothing wrong with TVT right. As of lately it's been proven to be the the most skilled and well played match up in any Starcraft2. Ask anyone about the recent TVT matches and they will say it's perhaps some of the best games they've seen in awhile. Positional play! POSITIONAL PLAY! That's what at risk here and not the same ol "turtle,take bases, minimum harass,upgrades,200 defining moment battle. BUFF the tank already and let Browder know the core for mech is the TANK!! For those worried about TVZ you will be fine. Besides you have many units i'm sure that can dodge the tank. I really don't think you lose anything in TvT with lockdown as long as you make the unit role fragile. It would still maintain the dynamic (and skill) nature of TvT, but would add a new twist and excitement to the game as well as making it much more interesting to watch. However, where it's real potential is, is against protoss making mech much more viable without completely breaking the matchup.
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I don't think lockdown is a good idea because it is literally the most micro removing spell possible, which is what everyone complains about anyway. At least fungaled units can attack, but a locked-down unit just sits there, does nothing, and still takes damage.
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On September 16 2012 13:49 p1cKLes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 13:05 Danzo wrote:On September 16 2012 06:45 avilo wrote:
No. TvT doesn't need a "fix" because it's the best match-up in the game already. Why does blizzard hate the tank so much? Why does there have to be 50 counters to the siege tank?
There does not need to be another counter to the siege tank!!! Stop it people!!! TvT is fine!
TvP can work if they use the stuff at their disposal and make it good! The widow mine! No supply! The battle hellion! Accessible to mech!
Stop asking for more counters to the siege tank! Everything already counters it! There is no "siege tank problem" or TvT problem. It's the most dynamic and best skilled match-up already!!!! Exactly! I don't know why there's countless threads about replacing the warhound. Getting rid of the warhound was probably the greatest achievement in HOTS as of yet in my opinion. Like what Avilo said, there's absolutely nothing wrong with TVT right. As of lately it's been proven to be the the most skilled and well played match up in any Starcraft2. Ask anyone about the recent TVT matches and they will say it's perhaps some of the best games they've seen in awhile. Positional play! POSITIONAL PLAY! That's what at risk here and not the same ol "turtle,take bases, minimum harass,upgrades,200 defining moment battle. BUFF the tank already and let Browder know the core for mech is the TANK!! For those worried about TVZ you will be fine. Besides you have many units i'm sure that can dodge the tank. I really don't think you lose anything in TvT with lockdown as long as you make the unit role fragile. It would still maintain the dynamic (and skill) nature of TvT, but would add a new twist and excitement to the game as well as making it much more interesting to watch. However, where it's real potential is, is against protoss making mech much more viable without completely breaking the matchup.
I don't know. I don't see anything exciting about the unit other than it's microless and very gimmiky.
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I miss lockdown.... versus protoss. But I wouldn't waste gas on it in TvT. And as much as I like the spell, I don't think it has a place anymore in sc2. TvT is already the most dynamic matchup of them all and doesn't need it, and I don't think the mech woes vs protoss will be solved by lockdown. Immortals aren't really the biggest issue with ghosts to emp them, chargelot archon is far more dangerous.
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Let me state one thing.
Lockdown is a VERY powerful ability in isolation. Most of its strength is, of course, what units can use it and what they end up using it on. If the unit that gets it ends up being a reasonable unit to grab a few of (unlike the BW Ghost), then it becomes a very good idea to get some to lock down Colossi. This means that in mid-lategame TvP situations, the Terran no longer has to rely on high Viking counts to handle Colossi. Instead, they can just mix in a few of these casters and stop the Colossi dead without having to spend way more supply on Vikings than the Protoss has to on Colossi. This could push a lot of engagements WAY in the favor of Terran. Something would need to get buffed on the Protoss side, and chances are that would have to be Storm. Alternatively, maybe the Oracle shield would be able to do the job.
With that said, I'd very much like to see Lockdown implemented. Anything to get Colossi into the category of "niche AOE timing" and bring Storms back into the level of awesome power.
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this is actually a pretty interesting idea
remove auto turret from the game and give lockdown to the raven
there aren't very many good reasons to build ravens vs protoss outside of 1/1/1 all-in, and auto turret is mostly an "oh no, i don't have point defense drone ready yet" spell
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On September 16 2012 17:38 Zanno wrote:
this is actually a pretty interesting idea
remove auto turret from the game and give lockdown to the raven
there aren't very many good reasons to build ravens vs protoss outside of 1/1/1 all-in, and auto turret is mostly an "oh no, i don't have point defense drone ready yet" spell
I was thinking the same, raven need to be used more, give it lockdown... Its a win win really.
Just need to give it a speed boost also so vikings cant kill them to fast.
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Lockdown seems to be like contaminate for mech units. I like the idea but I worry about the effect on Immortals, which should be able to trade efficiently against mech early but be less cost effective as the mech army develops. Having Lockdown stun while also preventing attacks seems a little too strong; I'd rather have something like reverse fungal growth, where you can't attack but you can move, which basically has no effect on tank wars compared to the OP and doesn't absolutely crush every protoss combination except for zealot/archon.
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Why would we need another counter to tanks ? Literally every HotS units was presented as countering tanks - just look at the video previews --'
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On September 16 2012 17:08 Acritter wrote:
Let me state one thing.
Lockdown is a VERY powerful ability in isolation. Most of its strength is, of course, what units can use it and what they end up using it on. If the unit that gets it ends up being a reasonable unit to grab a few of (unlike the BW Ghost), then it becomes a very good idea to get some to lock down Colossi. This means that in mid-lategame TvP situations, the Terran no longer has to rely on high Viking counts to handle Colossi. Instead, they can just mix in a few of these casters and stop the Colossi dead without having to spend way more supply on Vikings than the Protoss has to on Colossi. This could push a lot of engagements WAY in the favor of Terran. Something would need to get buffed on the Protoss side, and chances are that would have to be Storm. Alternatively, maybe the Oracle shield would be able to do the job.
With that said, I'd very much like to see Lockdown implemented. Anything to get Colossi into the category of "niche AOE timing" and bring Storms back into the level of awesome power.
Some good points...
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On September 16 2012 17:38 Zanno wrote:
this is actually a pretty interesting idea
remove auto turret from the game and give lockdown to the raven
there aren't very many good reasons to build ravens vs protoss outside of 1/1/1 all-in, and auto turret is mostly an "oh no, i don't have point defense drone ready yet" spell
i like it, raven need more love
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On September 16 2012 19:08 ArcticRaven wrote:
Why would we need another counter to tanks ? Literally every HotS units was presented as countering tanks - just look at the video previews --' I know there is a lot of debate about how this would affect TvT, but I don't think it would affect TvT so much that it would take away from tank battles. You would also have an easy counter to the unit as long as the unit role was fragile. As far as being a counter to tank, most of the races do have a counter to tanks, but this would only be isolated to TvT, which I think would be easy enough to counter if you gave it to the right unit, but would be enough of a threat to make it very interesting creating more micro in my opinion.
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On September 16 2012 17:38 Zanno wrote:
this is actually a pretty interesting idea
remove auto turret from the game and give lockdown to the raven
there aren't very many good reasons to build ravens vs protoss outside of 1/1/1 all-in, and auto turret is mostly an "oh no, i don't have point defense drone ready yet" spell I was thinking possibly in addition, but now that I think about it, I like your idea better.
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United Kingdom12022 Posts
I'd rather the Raven get D-Matrix. Such a good spell for mech and I'd love to have it again.
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On September 17 2012 04:50 Qikz wrote:
I'd rather the Raven get D-Matrix. Such a good spell for mech and I'd love to have it again. Definitely a good spell too.
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On September 16 2012 06:45 avilo wrote:
No. TvT doesn't need a "fix" because it's the best match-up in the game already. Why does blizzard hate the tank so much? Why does there have to be 50 counters to the siege tank?
There does not need to be another counter to the siege tank!!! Stop it people!!! TvT is fine!
TvP can work if they use the stuff at their disposal and make it good! The widow mine! No supply! The battle hellion! Accessible to mech!
Stop asking for more counters to the siege tank! Everything already counters it! There is no "siege tank problem" or TvT problem. It's the most dynamic and best skilled match-up already!!!!
Agreed.
If anything, TvT should be left as it is. It is a very diverse and complex matchup already, which allows almost every unit to be built and actually be of substantial use.
The new "warhound-replacement" shouldnt really be made for siege line busts. There are ways to break a siege line, thors, nukes, cloak banshee-viking micro, medivac drops on tanks to name a few.
The new unit in my opinion should be centered towards mech TvP and maybe to help a bit vs TvZ, although a raven buff will clearly deal with TvZ right there and then.
Also the upgrade in the starport techlab that gives extended duration on the seeker, pdd and autoturret should be removed and inputted into the Raven as-is. "Durable materials" I think it's called.
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I like the idea of having lockdown on the raven, i don't think this would ruin TvT as vikings are present most of the time anyways, and i think it help in TvP. Plus Protoss have ways to deal with it, feedback and there new dispell type ablitiy.
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On September 17 2012 04:50 p1cKLes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 17:38 Zanno wrote:
this is actually a pretty interesting idea
remove auto turret from the game and give lockdown to the raven
there aren't very many good reasons to build ravens vs protoss outside of 1/1/1 all-in, and auto turret is mostly an "oh no, i don't have point defense drone ready yet" spell I was thinking possibly in addition, but now that I think about it, I like your idea better.
I like this a lot too. There's just one thing that would make it more interesting and more raven-like : make it deploy a drone over an area. That makes it more positional, and have more risk/reward compared to just a missile animation. Leaving something that can be targeted makes it more counterable - but requires you to have anti-air. (making it armored would prevent thors owning everything). On the other hand, it would have splash that way (preferably a small one, so as to affect 2-3 tanks). That would force the opponent to spread out.
The problem I see with this is that it would make it less effective against protoss (looking at you colossus). So it would have to have more range than most raven spells . 8 deploy range and 1,5 splash radius should be more than enough to get to the colossi.
I'm not sure whether or not it should affect air, since that would make it pretty good (too good ?) against Sky Toss. Maybe it should make units slower instead of freezing them completely ? That would make it more micro intensive : you'd have to get out of the field as quick as possible to be able to shoot again.
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Lockdown already exists in the game, it's called 250mm Strike Cannons and can effect any ground unit (and structure) in exchange for not targeting air. It also gains 500 damage over Lockdown's 0 damage. Now the stats of Strike Cannons can obviously be tweaked to better fit a desired role, but when an ability already exists that more or less does what you want, just try and suggest tweaks then just removing it and replacing it with something that does largely the same thing.
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On September 17 2012 05:37 xPrimuSx wrote:
Lockdown already exists in the game, it's called 250mm Strike Cannons and can effect any ground unit (and structure) in exchange for not targeting air. It also gains 500 damage over Lockdown's 0 damage. Now the stats of Strike Cannons can obviously be tweaked to better fit a desired role, but when an ability already exists that more or less does what you want, just try and suggest tweaks then just removing it and replacing it with something that does largely the same thing. True and I considered this, but I think most people can agree that the 250MM cannons and lockdown on the Thor are completely useless. Maybe it could be tweaked, and I did suggest that in my thread, but I personally think it would be better suited on the Raven and remove the 250MM cannons on the Thor all together. It's a good point, and it did cross my mind.
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If 250mm didnt take an eternity to startup it would be a useful spell and would make the thor cost effective vs ground. That and maybe a +1 buff on its casting range.
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Another point just crossed my mind.
Lockdown/lockdown area drone gives an effective counter to immortals. That's exactly what mech needs in TvP.
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TvT doesnt need fixing, its a beautiful matchup
TvP needs though, its blows
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I'd love to see lockdown regardless but agree with Avilo that TvT is already the best matchup by far and doesnt need fixes
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On September 17 2012 05:37 xPrimuSx wrote:
Lockdown already exists in the game, it's called 250mm Strike Cannons and can effect any ground unit (and structure) in exchange for not targeting air. It also gains 500 damage over Lockdown's 0 damage. Now the stats of Strike Cannons can obviously be tweaked to better fit a desired role, but when an ability already exists that more or less does what you want, just try and suggest tweaks then just removing it and replacing it with something that does largely the same thing.
How is this lockdown? Does it do anything against mass blink stalker backstabs?
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On September 17 2012 06:25 ArcticRaven wrote:
Another point just crossed my mind.
Lockdown/lockdown area drone gives an effective counter to immortals. That's exactly what mech needs in TvP.
Yep! Also, it would be pretty interesting to see on blink stalkers right in the middle of a blink where a few get trapped while the others blink, splitting up the army giving mech a better chance. It would help combat the mobility of Protoss in respect to the very non-mobile mech army.
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How about tweaking 250mm Cannon Strike? It already works as a sort of lockdown. Here are my ideas:
1 - Give it a decent range, 7-8 or even 9.
2 - Make it cooldown based again. If it's too strong, just increase the research time or make it come out of factory with cooldown ticking. This is just to prevent HTs from obliterating Thors.
3 - Shorten the activation time to 1 sec or give the player the option to enter the Cannon Strike mode manually in preparation for using the ability.
Hitting 6-7 250mm in the correct units during a big battle is extremely difficult and would be amazing to see pro players pull something clutch off.
And just as I finished typing this I noticed that a lot of people suggested the same thing lol. Oh well.
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Why not an AoE lockdown spell? It will break any deathball play
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How about changing the widow mine from dealing damage to releasing an electrical charge that locks down a small area for a few seconds? That could allow tanks to unsiege and siege back up in TvP, and would be interesting to watch and micro intensive, as ghosts or vikings would need to snipe observers, while the protoss tries to snipe the mines.
Also it would not ruin TvZ i think, and would add interesting features to TvT.
Your thoughts?
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SOrry but ur OP warhounds have been removed, the warhound had more reasons to be put in, but they made it way to powerful and cheap. A warhound is supposed to do good vs "mech protoss" ie: Immortals and Colosus... However, the warhound can also kill stalkers easily and zealots easily. Warhound is good vs immo and colo and costs 150/50 2 supply and massive, it breaks force fields, costs as much as a stalker and kills super expensive units like the immortal and colo. Blizz didnt have to remove it, just make the cost higher, maybe 250/100 and 4 supply like immortal.
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On September 17 2012 10:23 phfantunes wrote:
How about tweaking 250mm Cannon Strike? It already works as a sort of lockdown. Here are my ideas:
1 - Give it a decent range, 7-8 or even 9.
2 - Make it cooldown based again. If it's too strong, just increase the research time or make it come out of factory with cooldown ticking. This is just to prevent HTs from obliterating Thors.
3 - Shorten the activation time to 1 sec or give the player the option to enter the Cannon Strike mode manually in preparation for using the ability.
Hitting 6-7 250mm in the correct units during a big battle is extremely difficult and would be amazing to see pro players pull something clutch off.
And just as I finished typing this I noticed that a lot of people suggested the same thing lol. Oh well.
Strike Cannon is an inherently broken ability, because it allows a unit that has been balanced for combat to instantly kill a unit of its choice. This means that it can defeat its "counter" in straight combat. The choice is essentially between making Strike Cannon viable, at which point it's nearly impossible for Protoss to deal with anything approaching large Thor counts, or making it nonviable, which we have now. Lockdown in BW was balanced (hell, even a little underpowered) because it was stuck on a terrible combat unit. Irradiate and EMP were similarly balanced because they were stuck on non-combat units. You simply can't put powerful spells like this onto serious combat units, or those combat units then become ridiculously hard to stop. If you want another example, look at the SC2 Ghost. It's a legit combat unit, and has had two of its three spells nerfed horribly because if it had those spells along with its autoattack, it would be a unit you mass without ever thinking about it. So no, the Thor is NOT the answer to this.
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On September 17 2012 13:17 BlueKatz wrote:
Why not an AoE lockdown spell? It will break any deathball play
Look at Maelstrom. It's AOE lockdown against biological units. It's balanced because it was stuck onto a nigh-unusable unit and put at a very high energy cost. So either you would have to consign AOE lockdown to the same fate, or else watch it take over the game like nothing else.
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On September 16 2012 06:45 avilo wrote:
No. TvT doesn't need a "fix" because it's the best match-up in the game already. Why does blizzard hate the tank so much? Why does there have to be 50 counters to the siege tank?
There does not need to be another counter to the siege tank!!! Stop it people!!! TvT is fine!
TvP can work if they use the stuff at their disposal and make it good! The widow mine! No supply! The battle hellion! Accessible to mech!
Stop asking for more counters to the siege tank! Everything already counters it! There is no "siege tank problem" or TvT problem. It's the most dynamic and best skilled match-up already!!!!
Multiple exclamation marks... a sure sign of a diseased mind.
That said I don't think having a castable ability requiring micro would ruin tank wars. The warhound ruined tank wars because it turned TvT into an a-move-fest, instead of being a limited-potential unit that required micro.
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On September 16 2012 09:25 MasterCynical wrote:
Lockdown will even further encouge your opponent to go a deathball play, splitting your army would make valuable units very vulnerable to being picked off by lock down.
Also, wouldn't phase shield just counter lockdown if it makes it to release?
Lockdown works because it plays a niche role, isn't on a unit that is absurdly good in every situation, and costs a good amount of Energy. Fungal and FF are the complete opposite of all of these points.
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On September 17 2012 15:51 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 09:25 MasterCynical wrote:
Lockdown will even further encouge your opponent to go a deathball play, splitting your army would make valuable units very vulnerable to being picked off by lock down.
Also, wouldn't phase shield just counter lockdown if it makes it to release? Lockdown works because it plays a niche role, isn't on a unit that is absurdly good in every situation, and costs a good amount of Energy. Fungal and FF are the complete opposite of all of these points.
Forcefields are not broken in lategame, really. Make more than 6 sentries and they'll be too vulnerable to AoE.
Sentries are expensive as fuck.
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Canada11316 Posts
The problem with lockdown... is smart casting.
I wouldn't mind a niche, mechanically difficult spell like lockdown sans smart-casting. But with smart casting, I feel were just going to get another ff or fg that get's spammed and prevents people from microing.
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How bout mines do lock down charges instead of damage?
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On September 16 2012 15:40 -NegativeZero- wrote:
I don't think lockdown is a good idea because it is literally the most micro removing spell possible, which is what everyone complains about anyway. At least fungaled units can attack, but a locked-down unit just sits there, does nothing, and still takes damage.
but the difference here is, lockdown only works on mechanical units, and is single target.
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TvT is fine, don't dare to change it!
Some of your points are valid about TvP, but lockdown in SC2 would be too easy to use. It would be very hard to balance properly as it would either be too good or just bad.
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What do you call lockdown anyway?
It´s not explained what lockdown is in the op. From the way it was worded I gather lockdown is supposed to be an area skill that stops units from using abilities/attacking.
In BW lockdown was a single target end-of-the-tech-tree spell that stunned a mechanical unit for roughly 2 minutes(I remember Ghosts could nibble a tank to death before it ended. 5 damage against 150 HP, slow fire rate, guaranteed kill).
But yes, with battlehellions being a good way to hold against zealots, I think Mech lacks a defensive answer to blink stalker the most. (Immortals can be emp'd, just 2 ghosts are probably enough for the entire game.)
Maybe a spell that disables no-energy abilities in an area? Would help against charge, blink, siege/unsiege, viking transformation, probably not zergstuff(would be only burrow anyway)
I think a factory caster wouldn´t be entirely wrong anyway.
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Give reapers the ability to lay down up to three mines at a time. Then I can run reapers ahead of my mech units and lay mines. Similar to vultures.
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TvT is just fine. Every unit in WoL can be used, and it makes it interesting, and rewards you for making good decision making and positional movenments.
TvP is retarded. Longer game goes the weaker terran get. Any greed a terran does can be punished with a all in because tanks are shit. Warhoud did help a lot.
TvZ I feel like its getting back to being more even. The warhound helps out mech here but the warhound wasn't designed for the TvZ matchup.
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On September 16 2012 07:00 LgNKami wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 06:45 avilo wrote:
No. TvT doesn't need a "fix" because it's the best match-up in the game already. Why does blizzard hate the tank so much? Why does there have to be 50 counters to the siege tank?
There does not need to be another counter to the siege tank!!! Stop it people!!! TvT is fine!
TvP can work if they use the stuff at their disposal and make it good! The widow mine! No supply! The battle hellion! Accessible to mech!
Stop asking for more counters to the siege tank! Everything already counters it! There is no "siege tank problem" or TvT problem. It's the most dynamic and best skilled match-up already!!!! I agree with avilo. Personally I believe the siege tank needs a buff in damage to make it less forgiving as its supposed to be like that.
I agree with this, the seige tank should be feared in all matchups. As is now, a zerg just throws a couple beach balls first before he 1a's his lings and a toss just flat-out laughs when he sees tanks. Makes me sad 
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On September 17 2012 16:17 stard1n wrote:
How bout mines do lock down charges instead of damage?
O.o
That's actually not a bad idea to test at all.
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On September 17 2012 15:35 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 10:23 phfantunes wrote:
How about tweaking 250mm Cannon Strike? It already works as a sort of lockdown. Here are my ideas:
1 - Give it a decent range, 7-8 or even 9.
2 - Make it cooldown based again. If it's too strong, just increase the research time or make it come out of factory with cooldown ticking. This is just to prevent HTs from obliterating Thors.
3 - Shorten the activation time to 1 sec or give the player the option to enter the Cannon Strike mode manually in preparation for using the ability.
Hitting 6-7 250mm in the correct units during a big battle is extremely difficult and would be amazing to see pro players pull something clutch off.
And just as I finished typing this I noticed that a lot of people suggested the same thing lol. Oh well. Strike Cannon is an inherently broken ability, because it allows a unit that has been balanced for combat to instantly kill a unit of its choice. This means that it can defeat its "counter" in straight combat. The choice is essentially between making Strike Cannon viable, at which point it's nearly impossible for Protoss to deal with anything approaching large Thor counts, or making it nonviable, which we have now. Lockdown in BW was balanced (hell, even a little underpowered) because it was stuck on a terrible combat unit. Irradiate and EMP were similarly balanced because they were stuck on non-combat units. You simply can't put powerful spells like this onto serious combat units, or those combat units then become ridiculously hard to stop. If you want another example, look at the SC2 Ghost. It's a legit combat unit, and has had two of its three spells nerfed horribly because if it had those spells along with its autoattack, it would be a unit you mass without ever thinking about it. So no, the Thor is NOT the answer to this. Agreed, and why I felt it should be associated with a fragile unit role like the Ghost or the Raven. Some good points by the way.
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I don't think locking down 5 blink stalkers with ravens is going to be more efficient then putting down some point defense drones. A lockdown on one stalker may mitigate ~8 shots worth of damage.. A point defense drone far more.
Can someone tell me why blizzard is worried about overloading Terran mech with micro? Ok so you have the siege tank... target fire your tanks. The hellion, in battle this doesn't require a ton of micro just positioning. The thor - positioning and then about zero micro. And the widow mine... perhaps some preliminary micro. And Terran needs warhounds with zero micro in order to go mech, why?
How do widow mines fare against blink stalker antics?
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On September 17 2012 05:44 p1cKLes wrote:Show nested quote +On September 17 2012 05:37 xPrimuSx wrote:
Lockdown already exists in the game, it's called 250mm Strike Cannons and can effect any ground unit (and structure) in exchange for not targeting air. It also gains 500 damage over Lockdown's 0 damage. Now the stats of Strike Cannons can obviously be tweaked to better fit a desired role, but when an ability already exists that more or less does what you want, just try and suggest tweaks then just removing it and replacing it with something that does largely the same thing. True and I considered this, but I think most people can agree that the 250MM cannons and lockdown on the Thor are completely useless. Maybe it could be tweaked, and I did suggest that in my thread, but I personally think it would be better suited on the Raven and remove the 250MM cannons on the Thor all together. It's a good point, and it did cross my mind.
Yeah, I read your OP and I saw that you acknowledged it, but since given Blizzard's past behavior I always feel its better to focus any argument around tweaking an existing ability/unit over making a wholesale change.
On September 17 2012 15:05 stard1n wrote:
How about changing the widow mine from dealing damage to releasing an electrical charge that locks down a small area for a few seconds? That could allow tanks to unsiege and siege back up in TvP, and would be interesting to watch and micro intensive, as ghosts or vikings would need to snipe observers, while the protoss tries to snipe the mines.
Also it would not ruin TvZ i think, and would add interesting features to TvT.
Your thoughts?
This. I really like this idea. Converting Widow Mines to work as Lockdown Mines would be very cool, but having that be their only ability would probably be a bad idea. Much like the Hellion vs Battle Hellion it would be better if you could swap between damage and disable.
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On September 17 2012 16:12 Falling wrote:
The problem with lockdown... is smart casting.
I wouldn't mind a niche, mechanically difficult spell like lockdown sans smart-casting. But with smart casting, I feel were just going to get another ff or fg that get's spammed and prevents people from microing.
Treat it the same way that the BW team treated strong anti-micro abilities, and stick it on a relatively tough to obtain caster with little to no combat ability. Examples: Arbiter, Dark Archon, Queen (Ensnare), Ghost (oh hey). Lots of people have pointed out the Raven, and I think it would be a brilliant choice. Low enough on the food count that it wouldn't be oppressive to the army, expensive enough that you can't expect people to simply mass them until the late-lategame (at which point it hardly matters, because that's supposed to be the crazyawesome wickedstrange part of the game). Lockdown would probably be balanced at an EXTREMELY aggressive 75 energy, allowing for a different direction in Terran midgame play. In any case, it would revitalize an underused unit and allow Terrans to address Colossi and Mech play in a very different way. I think it would be highly interesting to watch.
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EPT
