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I am going to get straight to the point without hopefully making this a TL;DR thread. For us beta testers, we can all agree that the Warhound just didn't work. The original intention of the Warhound was to address primarily two concerns:
1. To help make mech more viable in TvP.
2. To help break siege lines in TvT.
However, the reality was:
1. It overlap in roles with the marauder.
2. It was a microless 1A unit which created a mechball that didn't take any micro to use.
3. It was too good of an all around unit.
4. It took away from Bio, because it was an early game unit. There was really no need to make marines and marauders when you could make the warhound.
5. It took away from tanks.
6.Supply effective.
These were some of the issues, and I am sure some of these can be argued either way, but the general consensus was the WH in its current version was NOT working.
So now fast forward and one patch later, we no longer have the WH. However, we are still in need of something that fills the gap and addresses TvT & TvP meeting these objectives.
1. Involves some micro and does not create a Terran 1A mechball. Keeping in tradition with the amount of micro involved in BW and WoL.
2. Helps break siege lines, but isn't too effective.
3. Makes mech more viable in TvP
4. Isn't too much of an all around good unit, which has strengths and weaknesses that provide a razor's edge allowing you to out micro the situation. Either being victorious or falling on your face based on your skill set. This helps create replayability and watchability as pointed out in Orb's thread -http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=367581
So as the title of my thread alludes to, the ability is Lockdown. This could (not where my strength lies) be used with:
Raven, where I feel it is the most appropriate. Get rid of the Auto Turret and give it Lockdown, which encourages more Raven play. Additionally, it's a fragile enough of a unit that it doesn't become to powerful and it can be countered reasonably. You also give the thor a min-buff by getting rid of the 250MM cannons so HT's can't feedback it.
Thor, but tweak it and actually make it useful. However I still think it would be problematic as in WoL.
Ghost so you have to choose between EMP and Lockdown against Protoss.
The numbers and unit, will have to be played with to ensure it's not too powerful. I think it should probably be a mid-game unit, because it would be too powerful against Terran and Protoss early game. It can be similar to Lockdown in BW or a variation thereof. I'm going to draw you a picture which helps you see why Lockdown would work.
TvP:
With good micro, you can lockdown his units in order to be taken out by mech. One of the biggest problems that mech faces is its easy for Protoss to counter tanks and mech in general with zealots, blink stalkers, immortals, etc. The other is Protoss is much more mobile than the mech army. With lockdown you can combat this on all levels. Let's say he's dancing back and forth with his deathball you lock down a few units as he pulls back. That gives enough time for a non-mobile mech army to do its damage. Let's say he goes for it and tries to take out your mech, you decide to lockdown his immortals knowing those are the most dangerous because Immortals are the counter to mech. It doesn't typically take much for immortals to clean up the army, but if they are on lockdown it's a different story. The tanks continue to bombard those hardened shields leveling the playing field, or even more interesting blink stalkers. You go for the blink, but what you didn't realize was was 4 or 5 blink stalkers just got put on lockdown and didn't blink anywhere. The ones that did blink do some nice damage, but not enough to take out the entire mech army. For the ones that got lockdown, they are either get taken out or blink the hell out of there. Now you would have to ensure that it wasn't an early game unit, because it would be too powerful. You would also have to make it where Terran couldn't just mass these units to lockdown Protoss's entire army over and over. You would have to play with the radius, supply, energy and cost to help minimize the amount of units and times you can cast it. This might be where the ghost should have it making the user choose between EMP or Lockdown (could be interesting in TvT as well). Again I think you want to have that "razor's edge" allowing you the opportunity to out micro the situation or frankly fall on your face.
TvT:
You and your opponent are engaged in a chess game of tanks and vikings. You both have siege lines that spread across the map. You are at a stand still and you are not sure what to do. You decide to go for the left flank throwing down Lockdown, which locksdown maybe 1-3 tanks for x amount of time. This allows you to do one of two things. You can push a Thor forward with its massive HP and take out those three tanks, or you can have 4 or 5 siege tanks on standby. After throwing down the lock down you move your siege tanks into position killing those 3 tanks. This creates a much faster paced TvT tank battle to help effectively remove the standstill. This also allows your opponent if he's paying attention to unsiege his tanks and resiege taking out your tanks. This creates that "razors edge" and the opportunity to out micro the situation while speeding up siege tank battles.
This in both matchups adds an entire different dimension to the game as well as the Terran army in general. I think it also provides replayability and watchability, because you will be dying to learn how to micro & cast it right, but you will also be on the edge of your seat (similar to banelings bombs) hoping your favorite pro can pull it off.
**Edit** To Avilo's point - I think you would ABSOLUTELY maintain the dynamic and skill aspect of TvT tank battles, but would add a new twist and excitement to it as long as you made the unit role fragile, which would give you the opportunity to out micro the situation. This would also speed up tank battles just by a little bit and make it much more exciting to watch. However, where its real potential is, is in TvP making mech much more viable. Obviously, as in BW, it has other potential uses that would add a whole new dynamic to the race. Additionally, it wouldn't "really" change TvT as a variation of Lockdown already exists with the Thor. You would just make it useful.
**Edit** Zanno brought up an idea that I thought was worth considering. Give it to the raven. Take away auto turret and give it lockdown, which would encourage us to play with the raven more and at the same time greatly help TvP. Another good point by gingerali1 "I like the idea of having lockdown on the raven, i don't think this would ruin TvT as vikings are present most of the time anyways, and i think it help in TvP. Plus Protoss have ways to deal with it, feedback and there new dispell type ablitiy."
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No. TvT doesn't need a "fix" because it's the best match-up in the game already. Why does blizzard hate the tank so much? Why does there have to be 50 counters to the siege tank?
There does not need to be another counter to the siege tank!!! Stop it people!!! TvT is fine!
TvP can work if they use the stuff at their disposal and make it good! The widow mine! No supply! The battle hellion! Accessible to mech!
Stop asking for more counters to the siege tank! Everything already counters it! There is no "siege tank problem" or TvT problem. It's the most dynamic and best skilled match-up already!!!!
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On September 16 2012 06:45 avilo wrote:
TvP can work if they use the stuff at their disposal and make it good! The widow mine! No supply! The battle hellion! Accessible to mech!
0 supply mines would wreak havoc on balance. Overseer Widow Mines. A limited # of 0 supply mines on some unit would not.
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On September 16 2012 06:45 avilo wrote:
No. TvT doesn't need a "fix" because it's the best match-up in the game already. Why does blizzard hate the tank so much? Why does there have to be 50 counters to the siege tank?
There does not need to be another counter to the siege tank!!! Stop it people!!! TvT is fine!
TvP can work if they use the stuff at their disposal and make it good! The widow mine! No supply! The battle hellion! Accessible to mech!
Stop asking for more counters to the siege tank! Everything already counters it! There is no "siege tank problem" or TvT problem. It's the most dynamic and best skilled match-up already!!!!
I agree with avilo. Personally I believe the siege tank needs a buff in damage to make it less forgiving as its supposed to be like that.
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On September 16 2012 06:45 avilo wrote:
No. TvT doesn't need a "fix" because it's the best match-up in the game already. Why does blizzard hate the tank so much? Why does there have to be 50 counters to the siege tank?
There does not need to be another counter to the siege tank!!! Stop it people!!! TvT is fine!
TvP can work if they use the stuff at their disposal and make it good! The widow mine! No supply! The battle hellion! Accessible to mech!
Stop asking for more counters to the siege tank! Everything already counters it! There is no "siege tank problem" or TvT problem. It's the most dynamic and best skilled match-up already!!!! Thank you for stopping by and expressing your opinion!!!! Not sure if I agree!!!! But I will take it under advisement!!!! I'm always open to other people's views!!!! lol...
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I've always liked the idea of Lockdown being in the game, if anything, it would make TvT tank wars much less drawn out, more fast paced and exciting to watch and play out.
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On September 16 2012 07:12 Anthonie wrote:
I've always liked the idea of Lockdown being in the game, if anything, it would make TvT tank wars much less drawn out, more fast paced and exciting to watch and play out. I agree. You would still retain the dynamic aspect of TvT and tank battles, but would add a new twist and excitement to it as long as you made the unit fragile, which would give you the opportunity to out micro the situation.
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Lock down would just be another of those forcefield/fungal style spells that stops micro on units. I don't think that's what the game really needs right now. I would say that anything that stops micro is bad.
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Lockdown will even further encouge your opponent to go a deathball play, splitting your army would make valuable units very vulnerable to being picked off by lock down.
Also, wouldn't phase shield just counter lockdown if it makes it to release?
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The BH is still accessible to mech. Factory + Armory, 100 minerals, 2 supply... Ain't bad.
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for it to be used with mech and work like you want you need it to be a more mineral heavy unit
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Tanks are fine in TvT. Theres nothing wrong with tank lines as it adds alot of decision making to the matchup.
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On September 16 2012 06:54 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 06:45 avilo wrote:
TvP can work if they use the stuff at their disposal and make it good! The widow mine! No supply! The battle hellion! Accessible to mech! 0 supply mines would wreak havoc on balance. Overseer Widow Mines. A limited # of 0 supply mines on some unit would not.
Spider mine -> it's been beta tested for 12 years aka brood war. It does not have a supply restriction on the unit itself...and it made brood war one of the best games ever? So wreak havoc on balance. Bullshit.
Don't know if you don't try.
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Interesting Idea it might be worth Blizzards time to explore this. Maybe it goes to the Warhound (it is anti-mechanical after all) maybe not but it is an interesting idea. (They are, after all, basically bringing in a bunch of BW spells retooled anyways)
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On September 16 2012 11:27 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 06:54 Cloak wrote:On September 16 2012 06:45 avilo wrote:
TvP can work if they use the stuff at their disposal and make it good! The widow mine! No supply! The battle hellion! Accessible to mech! 0 supply mines would wreak havoc on balance. Overseer Widow Mines. A limited # of 0 supply mines on some unit would not. Spider mine -> it's been beta tested for 12 years aka brood war. It does not have a supply restriction on the unit itself...and it made brood war one of the best games ever? So wreak havoc on balance. Bullshit. Don't know if you don't try.
I know unlimited army power at max supply is a bad idea. And yea it was tested by BW and it worked out great. Only problem was that it was gasless.
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On September 16 2012 11:39 Cloak wrote:
I know unlimited army power at max supply is a bad idea.
Blizz will just attach it to a "minelayer" unit that costs supply and resources. No biggie.
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On September 16 2012 07:00 LgNKami wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 06:45 avilo wrote:
No. TvT doesn't need a "fix" because it's the best match-up in the game already. Why does blizzard hate the tank so much? Why does there have to be 50 counters to the siege tank?
There does not need to be another counter to the siege tank!!! Stop it people!!! TvT is fine!
TvP can work if they use the stuff at their disposal and make it good! The widow mine! No supply! The battle hellion! Accessible to mech!
Stop asking for more counters to the siege tank! Everything already counters it! There is no "siege tank problem" or TvT problem. It's the most dynamic and best skilled match-up already!!!! I agree with avilo. Personally I believe the siege tank needs a buff in damage to make it less forgiving as its supposed to be like that.
You can't simply buff the Siege Tank's damage. Any significant buff in damage will make the already highly challenging 1-1-1 nearly impossible to beat. Any buff to Siege Tanks requires a nerf to Marines--or, to be more precise, a nerf to Marines used in combination with Siege Tanks.
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On September 16 2012 11:49 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 07:00 LgNKami wrote:On September 16 2012 06:45 avilo wrote:
No. TvT doesn't need a "fix" because it's the best match-up in the game already. Why does blizzard hate the tank so much? Why does there have to be 50 counters to the siege tank?
There does not need to be another counter to the siege tank!!! Stop it people!!! TvT is fine!
TvP can work if they use the stuff at their disposal and make it good! The widow mine! No supply! The battle hellion! Accessible to mech!
Stop asking for more counters to the siege tank! Everything already counters it! There is no "siege tank problem" or TvT problem. It's the most dynamic and best skilled match-up already!!!! I agree with avilo. Personally I believe the siege tank needs a buff in damage to make it less forgiving as its supposed to be like that. You can't simply buff the Siege Tank's damage. Any significant buff in damage will make the already highly challenging 1-1-1 nearly impossible to beat. Any buff to Siege Tanks requires a nerf to Marines--or, to be more precise, a nerf to Marines used in combination with Siege Tanks.
Does the Mothership core help in defending 1-1-1, making it easier to defend? I would assume so, but haven't seen enough to judge.
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On September 16 2012 09:25 MasterCynical wrote:
Lockdown will even further encouge your opponent to go a deathball play, splitting your army would make valuable units very vulnerable to being picked off by lock down.
Also, wouldn't phase shield just counter lockdown if it makes it to release? Unfortunately, given the current game design, I don't know that we can ever get away from deathball play. The only way I see this happening is if they limit the amount of units per control group.Similar to Warcraft 2 and 3. It's also one of the reasons you didn't have deathball play in BW.
It might, but it would be similar to storm and EMP constantly fighting back and forth making the game that much more interesting.
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On September 16 2012 11:39 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On September 16 2012 11:27 avilo wrote:On September 16 2012 06:54 Cloak wrote:On September 16 2012 06:45 avilo wrote:
TvP can work if they use the stuff at their disposal and make it good! The widow mine! No supply! The battle hellion! Accessible to mech! 0 supply mines would wreak havoc on balance. Overseer Widow Mines. A limited # of 0 supply mines on some unit would not. Spider mine -> it's been beta tested for 12 years aka brood war. It does not have a supply restriction on the unit itself...and it made brood war one of the best games ever? So wreak havoc on balance. Bullshit. Don't know if you don't try. I know unlimited army power at max supply is a bad idea.
There are alredy things like that in WoL. Spine and Spore Clawlers. They can be very usefull, but hardly game breaking...
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EPT
