EPTWhy Lockdown can fix TvT & TvP - Page 3
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gingerali1
United Kingdom9 Posts
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ArcticRaven
France1406 Posts
On September 17 2012 04:50 p1cKLes wrote: I was thinking possibly in addition, but now that I think about it, I like your idea better. I like this a lot too. There's just one thing that would make it more interesting and more raven-like : make it deploy a drone over an area. That makes it more positional, and have more risk/reward compared to just a missile animation. Leaving something that can be targeted makes it more counterable - but requires you to have anti-air. (making it armored would prevent thors owning everything). On the other hand, it would have splash that way (preferably a small one, so as to affect 2-3 tanks). That would force the opponent to spread out. The problem I see with this is that it would make it less effective against protoss (looking at you colossus). So it would have to have more range than most raven spells . 8 deploy range and 1,5 splash radius should be more than enough to get to the colossi. I'm not sure whether or not it should affect air, since that would make it pretty good (too good ?) against Sky Toss. Maybe it should make units slower instead of freezing them completely ? That would make it more micro intensive : you'd have to get out of the field as quick as possible to be able to shoot again. | ||
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xPrimuSx
95 Posts
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p1cKLes
United States342 Posts
On September 17 2012 05:37 xPrimuSx wrote: True and I considered this, but I think most people can agree that the 250MM cannons and lockdown on the Thor are completely useless. Maybe it could be tweaked, and I did suggest that in my thread, but I personally think it would be better suited on the Raven and remove the 250MM cannons on the Thor all together. It's a good point, and it did cross my mind.Lockdown already exists in the game, it's called 250mm Strike Cannons and can effect any ground unit (and structure) in exchange for not targeting air. It also gains 500 damage over Lockdown's 0 damage. Now the stats of Strike Cannons can obviously be tweaked to better fit a desired role, but when an ability already exists that more or less does what you want, just try and suggest tweaks then just removing it and replacing it with something that does largely the same thing. | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
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ArcticRaven
France1406 Posts
Lockdown/lockdown area drone gives an effective counter to immortals. That's exactly what mech needs in TvP. | ||
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Pulimuli
Sweden2766 Posts
TvP needs though, its blows | ||
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RinconH
United States512 Posts
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architecture
United States643 Posts
On September 17 2012 05:37 xPrimuSx wrote: Lockdown already exists in the game, it's called 250mm Strike Cannons and can effect any ground unit (and structure) in exchange for not targeting air. It also gains 500 damage over Lockdown's 0 damage. Now the stats of Strike Cannons can obviously be tweaked to better fit a desired role, but when an ability already exists that more or less does what you want, just try and suggest tweaks then just removing it and replacing it with something that does largely the same thing. How is this lockdown? Does it do anything against mass blink stalker backstabs? | ||
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p1cKLes
United States342 Posts
On September 17 2012 06:25 ArcticRaven wrote: Another point just crossed my mind. Lockdown/lockdown area drone gives an effective counter to immortals. That's exactly what mech needs in TvP. Yep! Also, it would be pretty interesting to see on blink stalkers right in the middle of a blink where a few get trapped while the others blink, splitting up the army giving mech a better chance. It would help combat the mobility of Protoss in respect to the very non-mobile mech army. | ||
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phfantunes
Brazil170 Posts
1 - Give it a decent range, 7-8 or even 9. 2 - Make it cooldown based again. If it's too strong, just increase the research time or make it come out of factory with cooldown ticking. This is just to prevent HTs from obliterating Thors. 3 - Shorten the activation time to 1 sec or give the player the option to enter the Cannon Strike mode manually in preparation for using the ability. Hitting 6-7 250mm in the correct units during a big battle is extremely difficult and would be amazing to see pro players pull something clutch off. And just as I finished typing this I noticed that a lot of people suggested the same thing lol. Oh well. | ||
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BlueKatz
68 Posts
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stard1n
50 Posts
Also it would not ruin TvZ i think, and would add interesting features to TvT. Your thoughts? | ||
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Diabulus
Bolivia105 Posts
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On September 17 2012 10:23 phfantunes wrote: How about tweaking 250mm Cannon Strike? It already works as a sort of lockdown. Here are my ideas: 1 - Give it a decent range, 7-8 or even 9. 2 - Make it cooldown based again. If it's too strong, just increase the research time or make it come out of factory with cooldown ticking. This is just to prevent HTs from obliterating Thors. 3 - Shorten the activation time to 1 sec or give the player the option to enter the Cannon Strike mode manually in preparation for using the ability. Hitting 6-7 250mm in the correct units during a big battle is extremely difficult and would be amazing to see pro players pull something clutch off. And just as I finished typing this I noticed that a lot of people suggested the same thing lol. Oh well. Strike Cannon is an inherently broken ability, because it allows a unit that has been balanced for combat to instantly kill a unit of its choice. This means that it can defeat its "counter" in straight combat. The choice is essentially between making Strike Cannon viable, at which point it's nearly impossible for Protoss to deal with anything approaching large Thor counts, or making it nonviable, which we have now. Lockdown in BW was balanced (hell, even a little underpowered) because it was stuck on a terrible combat unit. Irradiate and EMP were similarly balanced because they were stuck on non-combat units. You simply can't put powerful spells like this onto serious combat units, or those combat units then become ridiculously hard to stop. If you want another example, look at the SC2 Ghost. It's a legit combat unit, and has had two of its three spells nerfed horribly because if it had those spells along with its autoattack, it would be a unit you mass without ever thinking about it. So no, the Thor is NOT the answer to this. | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On September 17 2012 13:17 BlueKatz wrote: Why not an AoE lockdown spell? It will break any deathball play Look at Maelstrom. It's AOE lockdown against biological units. It's balanced because it was stuck onto a nigh-unusable unit and put at a very high energy cost. So either you would have to consign AOE lockdown to the same fate, or else watch it take over the game like nothing else. | ||
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iKill
Denmark861 Posts
On September 16 2012 06:45 avilo wrote: No. TvT doesn't need a "fix" because it's the best match-up in the game already. Why does blizzard hate the tank so much? Why does there have to be 50 counters to the siege tank? There does not need to be another counter to the siege tank!!! Stop it people!!! TvT is fine! TvP can work if they use the stuff at their disposal and make it good! The widow mine! No supply! The battle hellion! Accessible to mech! Stop asking for more counters to the siege tank! Everything already counters it! There is no "siege tank problem" or TvT problem. It's the most dynamic and best skilled match-up already!!!! Multiple exclamation marks... a sure sign of a diseased mind. That said I don't think having a castable ability requiring micro would ruin tank wars. The warhound ruined tank wars because it turned TvT into an a-move-fest, instead of being a limited-potential unit that required micro. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On September 16 2012 09:25 MasterCynical wrote: Lockdown will even further encouge your opponent to go a deathball play, splitting your army would make valuable units very vulnerable to being picked off by lock down. Also, wouldn't phase shield just counter lockdown if it makes it to release? Lockdown works because it plays a niche role, isn't on a unit that is absurdly good in every situation, and costs a good amount of Energy. Fungal and FF are the complete opposite of all of these points. | ||
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iKill
Denmark861 Posts
On September 17 2012 15:51 Stratos_speAr wrote: Lockdown works because it plays a niche role, isn't on a unit that is absurdly good in every situation, and costs a good amount of Energy. Fungal and FF are the complete opposite of all of these points. Forcefields are not broken in lategame, really. Make more than 6 sentries and they'll be too vulnerable to AoE. Sentries are expensive as fuck. | ||
Falling
Canada11379 Posts
I wouldn't mind a niche, mechanically difficult spell like lockdown sans smart-casting. But with smart casting, I feel were just going to get another ff or fg that get's spammed and prevents people from microing. | ||
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