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Why Lockdown can fix TvT & TvP - Page 4

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 HotS
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stard1n
Profile Joined September 2012
50 Posts
September 17 2012 07:17 GMT
#61
How bout mines do lock down charges instead of damage?
D_K_night
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada615 Posts
September 17 2012 08:09 GMT
#62
On September 16 2012 15:40 -NegativeZero- wrote:
I don't think lockdown is a good idea because it is literally the most micro removing spell possible, which is what everyone complains about anyway. At least fungaled units can attack, but a locked-down unit just sits there, does nothing, and still takes damage.


but the difference here is, lockdown only works on mechanical units, and is single target.
Canada
Andre
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Slovenia3523 Posts
September 17 2012 08:33 GMT
#63
TvT is fine, don't dare to change it!

Some of your points are valid about TvP, but lockdown in SC2 would be too easy to use. It would be very hard to balance properly as it would either be too good or just bad.
You must gather your party before venturing forth.
Mataza
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Germany5364 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-17 13:09:21
September 17 2012 13:07 GMT
#64
What do you call lockdown anyway?
It´s not explained what lockdown is in the op. From the way it was worded I gather lockdown is supposed to be an area skill that stops units from using abilities/attacking.

In BW lockdown was a single target end-of-the-tech-tree spell that stunned a mechanical unit for roughly 2 minutes(I remember Ghosts could nibble a tank to death before it ended. 5 damage against 150 HP, slow fire rate, guaranteed kill).


But yes, with battlehellions being a good way to hold against zealots, I think Mech lacks a defensive answer to blink stalker the most. (Immortals can be emp'd, just 2 ghosts are probably enough for the entire game.)
Maybe a spell that disables no-energy abilities in an area? Would help against charge, blink, siege/unsiege, viking transformation, probably not zergstuff(would be only burrow anyway)
I think a factory caster wouldn´t be entirely wrong anyway.
If nobody hates you, you´re doing something wrong. However someone hating you doesn´t make you right
Ghostdav
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Canada129 Posts
September 17 2012 14:23 GMT
#65
Give reapers the ability to lay down up to three mines at a time. Then I can run reapers ahead of my mech units and lay mines. Similar to vultures.
It's quite alright, goodbye for now.
HeeroFX
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States2704 Posts
September 17 2012 14:41 GMT
#66
TvT is just fine. Every unit in WoL can be used, and it makes it interesting, and rewards you for making good decision making and positional movenments.
TvP is retarded. Longer game goes the weaker terran get. Any greed a terran does can be punished with a all in because tanks are shit. Warhoud did help a lot.
TvZ I feel like its getting back to being more even. The warhound helps out mech here but the warhound wasn't designed for the TvZ matchup.
CaptainCrush
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States785 Posts
September 17 2012 14:46 GMT
#67
On September 16 2012 07:00 LgNKami wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 16 2012 06:45 avilo wrote:
No. TvT doesn't need a "fix" because it's the best match-up in the game already. Why does blizzard hate the tank so much? Why does there have to be 50 counters to the siege tank?

There does not need to be another counter to the siege tank!!! Stop it people!!! TvT is fine!

TvP can work if they use the stuff at their disposal and make it good! The widow mine! No supply! The battle hellion! Accessible to mech!

Stop asking for more counters to the siege tank! Everything already counters it! There is no "siege tank problem" or TvT problem. It's the most dynamic and best skilled match-up already!!!!

I agree with avilo. Personally I believe the siege tank needs a buff in damage to make it less forgiving as its supposed to be like that.


I agree with this, the seige tank should be feared in all matchups. As is now, a zerg just throws a couple beach balls first before he 1a's his lings and a toss just flat-out laughs when he sees tanks. Makes me sad
MateShade
Profile Joined July 2011
Australia736 Posts
September 17 2012 15:17 GMT
#68
On September 17 2012 16:17 stard1n wrote:
How bout mines do lock down charges instead of damage?

O.o
That's actually not a bad idea to test at all.
p1cKLes
Profile Joined November 2010
United States342 Posts
September 17 2012 15:20 GMT
#69
On September 17 2012 15:35 Acritter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2012 10:23 phfantunes wrote:
How about tweaking 250mm Cannon Strike? It already works as a sort of lockdown. Here are my ideas:

1 - Give it a decent range, 7-8 or even 9.
2 - Make it cooldown based again. If it's too strong, just increase the research time or make it come out of factory with cooldown ticking. This is just to prevent HTs from obliterating Thors.
3 - Shorten the activation time to 1 sec or give the player the option to enter the Cannon Strike mode manually in preparation for using the ability.

Hitting 6-7 250mm in the correct units during a big battle is extremely difficult and would be amazing to see pro players pull something clutch off.

And just as I finished typing this I noticed that a lot of people suggested the same thing lol. Oh well.

Strike Cannon is an inherently broken ability, because it allows a unit that has been balanced for combat to instantly kill a unit of its choice. This means that it can defeat its "counter" in straight combat. The choice is essentially between making Strike Cannon viable, at which point it's nearly impossible for Protoss to deal with anything approaching large Thor counts, or making it nonviable, which we have now. Lockdown in BW was balanced (hell, even a little underpowered) because it was stuck on a terrible combat unit. Irradiate and EMP were similarly balanced because they were stuck on non-combat units. You simply can't put powerful spells like this onto serious combat units, or those combat units then become ridiculously hard to stop. If you want another example, look at the SC2 Ghost. It's a legit combat unit, and has had two of its three spells nerfed horribly because if it had those spells along with its autoattack, it would be a unit you mass without ever thinking about it. So no, the Thor is NOT the answer to this.
Agreed, and why I felt it should be associated with a fragile unit role like the Ghost or the Raven. Some good points by the way.
osiris17
Profile Blog Joined September 2012
United States165 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-09-17 15:49:30
September 17 2012 15:42 GMT
#70
I don't think locking down 5 blink stalkers with ravens is going to be more efficient then putting down some point defense drones. A lockdown on one stalker may mitigate ~8 shots worth of damage.. A point defense drone far more.

Can someone tell me why blizzard is worried about overloading Terran mech with micro? Ok so you have the siege tank... target fire your tanks. The hellion, in battle this doesn't require a ton of micro just positioning. The thor - positioning and then about zero micro. And the widow mine... perhaps some preliminary micro. And Terran needs warhounds with zero micro in order to go mech, why?

How do widow mines fare against blink stalker antics?
Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponent's fate. - sun tzu
xPrimuSx
Profile Joined January 2012
95 Posts
September 18 2012 02:58 GMT
#71
On September 17 2012 05:44 p1cKLes wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2012 05:37 xPrimuSx wrote:
Lockdown already exists in the game, it's called 250mm Strike Cannons and can effect any ground unit (and structure) in exchange for not targeting air. It also gains 500 damage over Lockdown's 0 damage. Now the stats of Strike Cannons can obviously be tweaked to better fit a desired role, but when an ability already exists that more or less does what you want, just try and suggest tweaks then just removing it and replacing it with something that does largely the same thing.
True and I considered this, but I think most people can agree that the 250MM cannons and lockdown on the Thor are completely useless. Maybe it could be tweaked, and I did suggest that in my thread, but I personally think it would be better suited on the Raven and remove the 250MM cannons on the Thor all together. It's a good point, and it did cross my mind.

Yeah, I read your OP and I saw that you acknowledged it, but since given Blizzard's past behavior I always feel its better to focus any argument around tweaking an existing ability/unit over making a wholesale change.


On September 17 2012 15:05 stard1n wrote:
How about changing the widow mine from dealing damage to releasing an electrical charge that locks down a small area for a few seconds? That could allow tanks to unsiege and siege back up in TvP, and would be interesting to watch and micro intensive, as ghosts or vikings would need to snipe observers, while the protoss tries to snipe the mines.

Also it would not ruin TvZ i think, and would add interesting features to TvT.

Your thoughts?

This. I really like this idea. Converting Widow Mines to work as Lockdown Mines would be very cool, but having that be their only ability would probably be a bad idea. Much like the Hellion vs Battle Hellion it would be better if you could swap between damage and disable.
Acritter
Profile Joined August 2010
Syria7637 Posts
September 18 2012 07:37 GMT
#72
On September 17 2012 16:12 Falling wrote:
The problem with lockdown... is smart casting.
I wouldn't mind a niche, mechanically difficult spell like lockdown sans smart-casting. But with smart casting, I feel were just going to get another ff or fg that get's spammed and prevents people from microing.

Treat it the same way that the BW team treated strong anti-micro abilities, and stick it on a relatively tough to obtain caster with little to no combat ability. Examples: Arbiter, Dark Archon, Queen (Ensnare), Ghost (oh hey). Lots of people have pointed out the Raven, and I think it would be a brilliant choice. Low enough on the food count that it wouldn't be oppressive to the army, expensive enough that you can't expect people to simply mass them until the late-lategame (at which point it hardly matters, because that's supposed to be the crazyawesome wickedstrange part of the game). Lockdown would probably be balanced at an EXTREMELY aggressive 75 energy, allowing for a different direction in Terran midgame play. In any case, it would revitalize an underused unit and allow Terrans to address Colossi and Mech play in a very different way. I think it would be highly interesting to watch.
dont let your memes be dreams - konydora, motivational speaker | not actually living in syria
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