EPT[LiquidParty] DotA2 Learning Group ^.^ - Page 29
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While this thread is labeled "DotA2", this is in fact a community thread first. Many of the users in the TL LoL subforum have been playing as friends for over a year now, so it makes logical sense that they would want to play other games together. Do not compare DotA2 to LoL, you will get banned. TL LoL veterans know what is expected. Newcomers be warned. gl hf | ||
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Haasts
New Zealand4444 Posts
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greggy
United Kingdom1483 Posts
general qop guidance applies: if your ult is down, farm. if it's up, gank. except your ult has 70 sec cd so you always gank. | ||
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dnastyx
United States2707 Posts
How much of those stats are wasted on you? I mean, it's a cute trick, but that's all. Why not just let an int hero get the staff instead of wasting money on something marginally useful? All I ever see it do against competent people is fuck up your power curve. | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14079 Posts
On September 06 2012 18:37 Haasts wrote: Ah, thanks for the term conversion. Some people on threads in the DotA2 forums are referring to chickens - is that a reference to a Hex/Polymorph, or something else? Chicken = Crow = Donkey = Courier = Lockjaw the Boxhound. The only unit in this game that really carries things. The forcestaff on BS is just as dna put it: "a cute trick". Does it work from time to time in pubs? Sure. Is it cool to kill someone with it? Yes. Is it stable, cost-effective or strong? Nope. PS: Linked your miniguide in the OP yango. =P | ||
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arnath
United States1317 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 06 2012 18:41 greggy wrote: bloodseeker is qb/stout/tango into phase + drums into bkb + force staff. if your opponents are incompetent and don't tp out of rupture then skip force. don't get radiance unless you're retardedly fed in which case it's better to drop those 3800 for bkb anyway. manta after bkb but game shouldn't last past yasha. if it does, you either rape everyone anyway or die in 2 seconds so doesn't matter what you get. general qop guidance applies: if your ult is down, farm. if it's up, gank. except your ult has 70 sec cd so you always gank. Just don't get Force -_-. Yasha is a more cost-effective damage increase than Force Staff, and it's not like Force Staff interrupts TPs. Force Staff essentially makes you a one-trick pony for your ultimate, but it's pointless. Why the hell would they face in a direction in which they can get forced TOWARD you? And if you force them AWAY from you, which is what should happen in 90% of cases, the damage you miss on those 2-3 autoattacks, plus the cost-inefficient DPS stats on Force Staff means you aren't even getting more damage on them. | ||
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Nehsb
United States380 Posts
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myopia
United States2928 Posts
Scythe of Vice = Guinsoo = Sheepstick Brewmaster = Panda (usually, Storm and Xin were pandas too) I still see people throw out names like Slayer and Gondar and Oblivion but they're not as common. | ||
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volcryn
United States149 Posts
Akasha=QoP I still use Krob(krobulus) for death prophet | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
Also I'm noticing a trend with my Phantom Assassin games, either it goes well early and we win, or I go 0-7 and we get destroyed. Haven't had many other experiences yet. . . . I really need to work on carrying games where we're getting crushed early but it just feels so difficult, I think I shouldn't get towerdived like that but then I'd need to probably steal other lanes' farm... Jungling before battle fury is really bleh and if I don't get it in time hmm... Oh well, maybe that'll come later. Oh and by the way, what do you guys think about Tranquil boots + Mana boots double boots strategy on certain support/gankish heroes? :3 Or phase/tranquil boots.. Basically tranquil boots as the secondary boots. | ||
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
If you're ganking urn+arcanes should be enough to sustain the squad. Also for Yango. We played a captains mode earlier and I would like some insight on the draft. I think we lost more because we got outplayed than because we got outpicked, but regardless ^_^ MatchID:38597921 | ||
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arnath
United States1317 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 07 2012 07:18 Shikyo wrote: Also I'm noticing a trend with my Phantom Assassin games, either it goes well early and we win, or I go 0-7 and we get destroyed. Haven't had many other experiences yet. . . . I really need to work on carrying games where we're getting crushed early but it just feels so difficult, I think I shouldn't get towerdived like that but then I'd need to probably steal other lanes' farm... Jungling before battle fury is really bleh and if I don't get it in time hmm... Oh well, maybe that'll come later. TBH that's just the nature of Phantom Assassin. The hero has trouble contributing to fights without lategame DPS items. Even her effectiveness with midgame fighting items is mediocre compared to other hard carries (Chinese pubs like playing Urn+Aquila+Diffusal midgame gank builds on Spectre for example). If you're playing Phantom Assassin, you need to accept that the point at which you have control over the tempo of the game comes quite late--even later than other hard carries who often do have some option to play for midgame teamfighting. There will be games that the enemy has to throw for you to win. It's a disadvantage of the hero that contributes significantly to why she's not often picked in competitive play. On September 07 2012 07:18 Shikyo wrote: Oh and by the way, what do you guys think about Tranquil boots + Mana boots double boots strategy on certain support/gankish heroes? :3 I think it's cute on Axe, but on 4th/5th position supports its hard to justify because your gold is scarce. If you have an extra 1000 to spare, you'd rather get team items that also give you minor regen (Urn for example) rather than buying double boots. It's also similarly hard to justify in comparison to the Tranquils+Soul Ring regen combo for 3rd position heroes that CAN afford both. On September 07 2012 07:18 Shikyo wrote: Or phase/tranquil boots.. Basically tranquil boots as the secondary boots. Phase Boots can't be disassembled like Tranquil Boots can, so when you make Phases you have to commit to them. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On September 07 2012 07:43 TheYango wrote: TBH that's just the nature of Phantom Assassin. The hero has trouble contributing to fights without lategame DPS items. Even her effectiveness with midgame fighting items is mediocre compared to other hard carries (Chinese pubs like playing Urn+Aquila+Diffusal midgame gank builds on Spectre for example). If you're playing Phantom Assassin, you need to accept that the point at which you have control over the tempo of the game comes quite late--even later than other hard carries who often do have some option to play for midgame teamfighting. There will be games that the enemy has to throw for you to win. It's a disadvantage of the hero that contributes significantly to why she's not often picked in competitive play. I've seen some mention of some basher build that's focused on ganking but it seems like a meh idea to me. Also hmm yeah... Though I believe that she actually has some decent gank assist potential with her 4 rapid strikes and her 4 second slow, another advantage I can think of is that she has no long cooldowns(as in an ult) but yeah, I'm just playing her because she's my favorite hero and I'm trying to see if there's some way to make her work. I feel like she absolutely needs BKB to be a factor in fights and she's pretty luck-based(She tends to only get 4 hits off reliably due to her blink aspd bonus and if none of those is a crit you likely won't kill them. If one is a crit you likely will kill them. The chance to get 1 crit out of 4 hits with 15% chance is around 50% so yeah... I also feel like if I don't go for a BF her farming just is way too bad to be able to get to her good items quickly enough and the BF has so much synergy with her W that I don't think it really should be worth skipping... Rushing BKB instead while getting crushed seems to accomplish nothing as you will still deal 0 damage :/ However after I do get to the BF/BKB and especially MKB in a reasonable time, I'm able to do the "sniper" teamfighting pretty well (Snipe a target that's seperated, immediately phase boots and run away, repeat, BKB when need to engage against unused disables). I really feel like she's underappreciated and I don't think her power really picks up that late, there's just something... She might actually be able to contribute pretty well to certain supports, maybe ones with a targeted stun or something(VS?) because then she can just do her full burst which, I feel, actually is quite formidable for a hardcarry with her mobility, especially with the 4 second slow. I also think that with just a Battle Fury and Phase Boots she's able to do the gank assisting job quite well and deals a lot of damage, but if she gets stunned with several enemies around she instantly dies because she doesn't have the resistance of AM. She also clears jungle nearly as fast as Antimage, she too can clear it fully every minute with some time to spare, especially if you use a quelling blade. Mainly I'm a bit worried about when I get to the level where people actually try to actively counter me with Ghost Scepters, Force Staffs, Blademails and what have you . . . However recently I feel like I'm starting to understand her a bit more(I really hope that my approach of playing with just one hero every single game is the right choice, by the way =P I already have more games with PA than my friend does with his most-played hero and he has 800 games played). | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 07 2012 08:37 Shikyo wrote: Mainly I'm a bit worried about when I get to the level where people actually try to actively counter me with Ghost Scepters, Force Staffs, Blademails and what have you . . . However recently I feel like I'm starting to understand her a bit more(I really hope that my approach of playing with just one hero every single game is the right choice, by the way =P I already have more games with PA than my friend does with his most-played hero and he has 800 games played). Blademail reflect is pure damage, so it doesn't go through magic immunity. BKB actually negates Blademail. | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
On September 07 2012 08:46 TheYango wrote: Blademail reflect is pure damage, so it doesn't go through magic immunity. BKB actually negates Blademail. Hmm why didn't I know that... Well that's some useful information <.< Hmm and I guess Purge cleanses Ghost Scepter? However it's kind of shit on PA ... | ||
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Haasts
New Zealand4444 Posts
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volcryn
United States149 Posts
On September 07 2012 07:31 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: Also for Yango. We played a captains mode earlier and I would like some insight on the draft. I think we lost more because we got outplayed than because we got outpicked, but regardless ^_^ MatchID:38597921 I'm going to take a stab at this. So here are some things that I see. 1) the CM ban really stands out as a mistake. They had already taken lesh/tide, which recently, are primarily played in the support role. Their early picks and bans show for a very team fight/mid game centric strategy. I like the morph ban for this reason. I would even say I like picking up CM over Shadow Shaman or Sand King. 2) I dont really know where the sand king pick was going. I feel he fits better into a duo lane, than a tri. He wasnt getting any farm, so no dagger for mid game. Lich could work here too, providing your team fight and lane control 3)Puck, I think this was an interesting response, but dire opting to offensive trilane vs. your trilane shut this down completely. It is hard to phase shift CK stun as well, b/c the projectile is so fast. I feel there were better picks for your long lane. Specifically, Brood, Bounty Hunter, Beastmaster. All 3 options would have been reletively safe against their tri-lane, had it opted to go top. Beastmaster would have been just as good for initiation, and provides a frontline body. Opting for Brood, would either split their tri-lane for force it off of yours. BH is definitely the weakest of the options. Gameplay wise, Dire opting for the offensive trilane shut yours down. But you also straight up lost all 3 lanes in terms of farm. QoP crushed Evo's rubick mid. and puck didn't do anything against WR, so WR just massively out csed puck. | ||
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
I had assumed that WR and Lesh would be in opposite positions though. Lesh sets up a lot better in a trilane so this should have been more obvious I guess, but ^_^ We also wanted to draft Beastmaster so I can take solace in my minor victory. Puck was selected at user request and I figured it could initiate and farm well enough in offlane with orb that it'd be better than a beastmaster pick that the user wasn't as comfortable with. I also question how useful Brood would be if they sent Tidehunter to counter it. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
My thoughts: - Skipping first round bans as those are largely up to the captain's preference for what they want to let through/play around. I know Evo likes Rubick so a first pick Rubick was more or less a given here. - 2nd pick Lesh+Windrunner is fairly mediocre. It's not bad as it's well-rounded, but it doesn't really put up any threats for you to have to draft against and leaves you a lot of options in the pool. I don't like either the Anti-Mage or the Sand King pick. Realistically if you wanted to pick a carry here, Morphling was probably the best bet because he's powerful enough to be relevant to how they draft, but also versatile enough not to show anything. Anti-Mage can be drafted here, but he exposes certain weaknesses that your other pick here has to be able to complement. In particular, he opens up a weaker early game and the possibility of aggressive trilanes against you. Your second pick here should have been another strong laner/midgame teamfighter that can stave off the enemy's early aggression (note that LGD and IG typically only really picked first round Anti-Mage off of a powerful opening draft like Invoker + Rubick). Sand King just isn't strong enough in the stage you need him to be strong to support Anti-Mage. - Realistically in a pub CM game, on 2nd pick you need to think what picks you need to take before the 2nd ban phase. The enemy hasn't picked a carry, and the carry pool is relatively free, so there's not much need to necessarily pick a carry. Of note--both DS, and Furion, the two most relevant solo hard lane heroes, were out of the pool, which puts some pressure on you to use the first round to grab a hard lane solo. Additionally, pubs tend to play poorly around AoE CCs, so that also becomes worth thinking about in the first round. I would have taken either Tide or Enigma in the first round (possibly both). - Going into the 2nd ban phase, we should recap what both teams have. You guys had Rubick, Sand King, AM. They had Leshrac, Windrunner, Tidehunter. Your team is missing at least 1 more creep-clearing AoE spell, an AoE CC, and a solo hard laner (Rubick can mid or support so you have flexibility there). Their team is missing a 1st position physical damage carry, a 2nd position tempo-carrying hero (Tide or Lesh could do this, but this isn't common in DotA 2 and has certain weaknesses that you can play around), and single-target hard CC. - The Enigma ban against you was more or less expected, as it takes away both a hard lane solo and an AoE CC from you. As far as your bans, you wanted to be focusing on 1st and 2nd position heroes, particularly ones with hard single-target CC. CK probably should have been a given for your bans (he can play either 1st or 2nd position, and has a hard single-target CC--he was by far the most obvious pick for them to take 4th). The 2nd ban had a bit more leeway (taking out strong mid or carry heroes you don't want to play against)--QoP, DK, Morph probably all were fine. - The last 2 picks were largely the teams just rounding out their lineups--not much interaction insofar as what either team wanted. Rhasta was OK--doesn't solve any of your team's issues and a bit hard to play properly in teamfights with so much AoE flying around for such a short-ranged hero to deal with. Puck was more or less the best hard lane pick you could get given what was left and what your team needed. | ||
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