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While this thread is labeled "DotA2", this is in fact a community thread first. Many of the users in the TL LoL subforum have been playing as friends for over a year now, so it makes logical sense that they would want to play other games together.
Do not compare DotA2 to LoL, you will get banned.
TL LoL veterans know what is expected. Newcomers be warned.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 06 2012 04:03 arnath wrote:
For items, I agree with Yango on a general build. I wouldn't buy Manta on her.
Manta's actually not bad on her when you want to push high ground and put pressure on their towers without putting yourself in too much danger (430 got it for this purpose in one of the games against Na'Vi). It's just that it's not fantastic for her immediate effectiveness, particularly as the illusions don't really benefit from any of her other stuff (e.g. Refraction flat +damage).
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So I just had a guy random void(I instalocked PA) start triple agi boots items + branch + quelling blade + salve(The biggest megalasthit build on a hero with amazing base dmg), and then he laned with me and naturally got a great majority of the lasthits. In the lategame I even saw him mostly in the jungle... Yet at the endscreen he had 98 lasthits at 41min, how do some people manage that with everything considered x_X Some people just aren't meant to play as carries I guess (Because I know I'll get QQ thread whine stuff comments for this, hey I went 11-1 and carried that game :3 It's more of a "how is this possible" right? Though if you disagree comment and I'll delete this part of the post and post it in the DotA2 QQ thread altered to be more QQ-ish)
Oh but I as of late really love these sorts of matchups where you're forced to lasthit with significantly lower damage, it's in my opinion very useful trying to learn to get every lasthit possible under poor conditions and playing with less items than normal is also very useful as a learning experience. I still need to work on my gamesense though because in some situations I just greatly overestimate my utility, like for instance when 3 enemy team members are really low I'll just jump in and... Die. :/ When I think I can kill at least one and escape >_< At least I'm getting better at farming, it really seems to be true that you shouldn't sacrifice farm for ganks / skirmishes unless you're sure you'll get something out of it as in you're there for the cleanup(This for PA in specific).
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no one cares this isn't your blog
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All right I guess I'll learn from the best and just insult others with oneliners full of grammar errors.
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On September 06 2012 05:59 Shikyo wrote:
I still need to work on my gamesense though because in some situations I just greatly overestimate my utility, like for instance when 3 enemy team members are really low I'll just jump in and... Die. :/ When I think I can kill at least one and escape >_<
This might because you are playing so much PA and you have the crit RNG to deal with. I have been 3 shot by a PA who got all 3 crits in a situation I would have otherwise easily have escaped. On the other hand, I have gotten away because she got no crits. Very similar to CK's stun, a 2 second stun and a 4 second stun are completely different.
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Hey everyone, long time lurker T_T! anyone feel free to add me HaruGLoRy on steam to play dota or talk about dota ^^ cheers!
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On September 06 2012 07:29 Shikyo wrote:
All right I guess I'll learn from the best and just insult others with oneliners full of grammar errors.
first half of your post was useless and my eyes glazed over
I don't spend effort to respond to shitty posts and humblebrags
stop posting shitty and you'll stop getting shitty responses
User was warned for this post
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United States47024 Posts
WTF both of you stop shitting up the thread.
Are there any heroes that people want miniguides for?
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Well, I wouldn't want to go around abusing your pro miniguide writing but since your offering.
Brewmaster. Please and thank you :D.
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Thanks all for your answers re: supports / Veno / etc. I'd been practising stacking/pulling in custom games (though I need to practise it on Dire side more), but there's a lot that doesn't come naturally - all the things a courier can do (e.g. buying things for other laners - can you split a ward stack remotely?), animation cancelling, etc.
Some fairly banal questions:
° What are the requirements for upgrading the courier? Does an animal courier need to be in-base for you to be able to purchase the flying courier to upgrade, or ...?
³ What are the differences between Force Staff and Blink Dagger? They seem to have a fairly similar function.
° I'm not used to having turning animations/turn speed compared to LoL - in LoL, often you'll be spamming the move command in lane between last hits to make it harder for skillshots to land, etc, but I've been left in some awkward situations in DotA2 when doing this - should I be standing still, or moving in a way that decreases the angles I have to turn at (running in circles)?
° What are some position 4/5 heroes that can, if needed, play a position 3 (or even 2) role if needed (e.g. DCs/leavers in bot games, or when I'm trying to support you'll end up with a Gyrocopter and Sniper running off to lane together and I end up with a solo lane as Tidehunter)? I've done decently w/Venomancer in these situations - maybe Windrunner/Leshrac have this flexibility, or ... Dark Seer?
° How important are sound cues in DotA2 compared w/LoL? I play LoL w/sound off, and I'm doing the same w/DotA2 (though I can't seem to disable the "Valve" sound effect when you launch the game, annoyingly) - however, since things seem to be less obvious visually (less crisp/cartoonish), is more of the burden of knowledge shunted off into recognising SFX?
° What are the common "holdover" terms from DotA1 still used commonly for DotA2 (I guess as a general de-Blizzard-ing/smoothing out)? e.g. TheYango calling Drums of Endurance Janggo (maybe he just likes typing out "ang(g)o" =p), casters referring to Shadow Shaman as Rhasta, etc.
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United States47024 Posts
On September 06 2012 13:57 Haasts wrote:
° What are the requiremetns for upgrading the courier? Does an animal courier need to be in-base for you to be able to purchase the flying courier to upgrade, or ...?
Upgrades wherever it is.
On September 06 2012 13:57 Haasts wrote:
³ What are the differences between Force Staff and Blink Dagger? They seem to have a fairly similar function.
In general, Force Staff is a general supportive/utility item, while Blink Dagger is an initiation/ganking item. Notable differences:
- Force Staff gives stats, Blink doesn't (lol)
- Force Staff can be used on anyone in range, Blink only blinks yourself
- Blink is disabled by taking damage from heroes
- Force Staff moves the target non-instantly for 600 range (and always pushes the full distance), Blink moves you up to 1200 range (this is the difference between initiation you can see beforehand, and initiation you can't--night time sight range is 800 for most heroes, and Smoke of Deceit break range is 1025)
- Blink disjoints projectiles, Force Staff doesn't
On September 06 2012 13:57 Haasts wrote:
° I'm not used to having turning animations/turn speed compared to LoL - in LoL, often you'll be spamming the move command in lane between last hits to make it harder for skillshots to land, etc, but I've been left in some awkward situations in DotA2 when doing this - should I be standing still, or moving in a way that decreases the angles I have to turn at (running in circles)?
You generally should be moving around in lane. The timing of when you have to start turning to lasthit that creep is something to get used to (and creates opportunities for the laners to harass each other).
On September 06 2012 13:57 Haasts wrote:
° What are some position 4/5 heroes that can, if needed, play a position 3 (or even 2) role if needed (e.g. DCs/leavers in bot games, or when I'm trying to support you'll end up with a Gyrocopter and Sniper running off to lane together and I end up with a solo lane as Tidehunter)? I've done decently w/Venomancer in these situations - maybe Windrunner/Leshrac have this flexibility, or ... Dark Seer?
Dark Seer should be 2/3 to begin with. Windrunner and Leshrac can be played as 4/5 as well as higher positions. Other supports that are played on 2/3 positions as well:
- Sand King
- Wisp
- Sven
- Tidehunter
- Shadow Shaman
- Enchantress
- Rubick
- Disruptor
- etc.
In general any support that can comfortably farm quickly and turn that farm into team utility items (Mek, Pipe, etc.) or have powerful teamfight skills that benefit from items (Blink/BKB/Aghanim's on Sand King, Refresher Tide, etc.) can be played on a higher position.
On September 06 2012 13:57 Haasts wrote:
° How important are sound cues in DotA2 compared w/LoL? I play LoL w/sound off, and I'm doing the same w/DotA2 (though I can't seem to disable the "Valve" sound effect when you launch the game, annoyingly) - however, since things seem to be less obvious visually (less crisp/cartoonish), is more of the burden of knowledge shunted off into recognising SFX?
Off the top of my head, the 2 sounds that are important to listen for are the TP sound and the ward placement sound. There are also certain skills that have more noticeable audio cues than visual ones (e.g. Lycanthrope's Howl).
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On September 06 2012 13:20 TheYango wrote:
WTF both of you stop shitting up the thread.
Are there any heroes that people want miniguides for?
bloodseeker please
rtu told me that SnY is a bad item now so idk what to buy
the fewer actives the better, don't forget i'm bad
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On September 06 2012 14:13 gtrsrs wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 13:20 TheYango wrote:
WTF both of you stop shitting up the thread.
Are there any heroes that people want miniguides for? bloodseeker please rtu told me that SnY is a bad item now so idk what to buy the fewer actives the better, don't forget i'm bad
SnY isn't really bad. It just got nerfed so people don't like it anymore like vanguard. I think that Armlet is the way to go for BS though...and you're probably going to need a BKB before or after depending on what the enemy team has in terms of spells.
Once you get rolling off the kills you should tank out or get additional damage as game dictates. If you don't get rolling you're probably going to lose.
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SnY is pretty bad unless you intend to make it into manta + halberd by disassembling later.
Usually if you want the movespeed bonus just getting yasha and upgrading it into manta is enough. If you want the strength/damage or the sange passive then basher is better (though this is not a very good idea to begin with)
Much better items on BS than Sange (though I'd say BS isn't a great hero to be playing, but to each their own) are things like forcestaff (particularly if you're ganking/want to get kills with ult), BKB, Assault Cuirass, butterfly.
On September 06 2012 14:32 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 14:13 gtrsrs wrote:On September 06 2012 13:20 TheYango wrote:
WTF both of you stop shitting up the thread.
Are there any heroes that people want miniguides for? bloodseeker please rtu told me that SnY is a bad item now so idk what to buy the fewer actives the better, don't forget i'm bad SnY isn't really bad. It just got nerfed so people don't like it anymore like vanguard. I think that Armlet is the way to go for BS though...and you're probably going to need a BKB before or after depending on what the enemy team has in terms of spells. Once you get rolling off the kills you should tank out or get additional damage as game dictates. If you don't get rolling you're probably going to lose.
why armlet on BS?
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United States47024 Posts
Bloodseeker first because he's easy.
Bloodseeker: Ganker/Semicarry
Pros: Crushes people in lane. You can't run from him.
Cons: No AoE, weak CC, steroid interacts poorly with BKB, gets crushed by Blademail/Ghost Scepter/Eul's.
Laning/Position: Go mid. Get every lasthit, have infinite sustain. Gank with 6 or good runes (preferably both). MAP AWARENESS IS KEY. Bloodseeker is a really strong 1v1 laner due to his passive on lasthits, but he's really easy to gank. Try to get runes when you can (you don't need them, but getting good gank runes or stopping someone from filling their bottle helps a lot), but it might be hard in some matchups since you have no AoE to push out the lane before getting a rune.
Skill order: W level 1, Q level 2, then R>W/E>Q. Get as much W as you need to out-sustain the enemy's harass in lane, and then get E after that.
Items:
- There are two ways to start: the safe way (Tango, Salve, Stout, 3xBranches) for situations where you feel you can out-lasthit them normally and want the salve and stats to help if you get ganked; and the manly way (Tango, Stout, QB) for just crushing the other guy on lasthits, and not worrying as much about ganks--you can usually get away with it in pubs
- PMS and Boots are important early. You can get Wand if you want after your boots upgrade, but you already have a lot of small items like PMS and QB taking up slots, so you often just want to skip it.
- There are two paths of core item development: "run fast and kill shit" and "my team sucks and feeds so I need to farm to kill people because their team is too fed" (usually you're gonna lose anyway in that situation, but if the enemy sucks at farming like they do in most pubs, you can still win this way sometimes)
- Run fast and kill shit: Phase Boots, Janggo, Yasha. Damage, attack speed, movespeed. Run fast, kill shit fast. Good to gank lanes with decent gank assist, and good to have a powerful teamfight midgame because you do a lot of damage with midgame items.
- Team sucks, farm: Treads, Vit Booster, Radiance. Bloodseeker has no AoE farming ability, and Mjollnir/Battlefury are pretty meh for him, so Radiance is what's left. Radiance burn healing you with W is also kind of cute. This doesn't have immediate fighting power. The treads and Vit Booster make you tankier and harder to gank, and the Radiance is just for farming. You have to push for later items to really fight well.
- Items after core:
Manta Style (for pushing high ground towers after you already have your Yasha)
BKB (obvious for when you need it--note that BKB removes your own Bloodrage buff)
Heart (turn Vit into this rather than selling it--you actually don't need that much HP/regen because of your W-based healing, so don't build this until you're on 6 slots and don't have other small stuff to sell, and don't buy it at all if you went the fighting build)
Diffusal (underbought item on Bloodseeker--use it to purge Ghost Scepter buff)
Assault Cuirass (also good for pushing high ground and good teamfight item with the aura)
Butterfly (damage item and for fighting other carries)
MKB/Buriza (when you're super fat and need another damage item lategame--Manta/Butterfly/Cuirass are much more cost-effective and Diffusal/BKB serve certain special uses)
Other stuff:
- MAP AWARENESS. You can crush people mid, but you look like an idiot if you get FBed and can't win mid anymore. A Bloodseeker that doesn't win his lane and get fed is useless.
- Gank a lot, fight a lot. You have to take advantage of your mobility and chasing power early game. You really only want to resort to the farming build if the game is in bad shape, because you can't really farm out a long game vs. hard carries. You have to gank, fight, and push advantages.
- Manage BKB with Bloodrage properly. Bloodraging yourself is a lot of damage, but BKBing removes it, so you don't want to Bloodrage and then immediately BKB it off. Use your silence on key heroes early, and Bloodrage yourself for cleanup.
On September 06 2012 14:32 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
SnY isn't really bad. It just got nerfed so people don't like it anymore like vanguard. I think that Armlet is the way to go for BS though...and you're probably going to need a BKB before or after depending on what the enemy team has in terms of spells.
S&Y sucks for Bloodseeker because the only thing it's good for as an item is chasing power, which Bloodseeker is already good enough at. He needs his items to cover his weaknesses in everything that's not chasing power.
Armlet is pretty mediocre for Bloodseeker. Janggo is a much more cost-effective midgame teamfight item that is also cheaper, and the Janggo+Yasha core works better with Bloodseeker because damage multipliers only multiply base+stat based damage (so the direct +damage from Armlet doesn't get multiplied by Bloodrage).
On September 06 2012 14:57 wherebugsgo wrote:
SnY is pretty bad unless you intend to make it into manta + halberd by disassembling later.
Usually if you want the movespeed bonus just getting yasha and upgrading it into manta is enough. If you want the strength/damage or the sange passive then basher is better (though this is not a very good idea to begin with)
I can't think of any heroes that I'd actually disassemble S&Y to make Halberd+Manta on.
Multiple evasion sources don't stack, and Butterfly is simply too cost-effective of an item for you to use your Talisman of Evasion on Halberd for Agility carries.
For Strength carries, pretty much any Strength carry that could actually make use of Halberd+Manta already has really good chasing power (e.g. Chaos Knight), and would rather directly finish Manta or Halberd than muck around with S&Y in between, because those finished items actually do important things for you.
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On September 06 2012 14:57 wherebugsgo wrote:SnY is pretty bad unless you intend to make it into manta + halberd by disassembling later. Usually if you want the movespeed bonus just getting yasha and upgrading it into manta is enough. If you want the strength/damage or the sange passive then basher is better (though this is not a very good idea to begin with) Much better items on BS than Sange (though I'd say BS isn't a great hero to be playing, but to each their own) are things like forcestaff (particularly if you're ganking/want to get kills with ult), BKB, Assault Cuirass, butterfly. Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 14:32 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On September 06 2012 14:13 gtrsrs wrote:On September 06 2012 13:20 TheYango wrote:
WTF both of you stop shitting up the thread.
Are there any heroes that people want miniguides for? bloodseeker please rtu told me that SnY is a bad item now so idk what to buy the fewer actives the better, don't forget i'm bad SnY isn't really bad. It just got nerfed so people don't like it anymore like vanguard. I think that Armlet is the way to go for BS though...and you're probably going to need a BKB before or after depending on what the enemy team has in terms of spells. Once you get rolling off the kills you should tank out or get additional damage as game dictates. If you don't get rolling you're probably going to lose. why armlet on BS?
Because armlet is one of the best ways to feed on idiots. A lot of it comes down to game sense. If you can control the game and farm up that 3800 for a sacred relic then go for it, but remember that you're going to lose a colossal amount of money if you die. If you ever get behind as blood seeker you're in a world of trouble so it is simply too risky for a player of my caliber.
Armlet is pretty mediocre for Bloodseeker. Janggo is a much more cost-effective midgame teamfight item that is also cheaper, and the Janggo+Yasha core works better with Bloodseeker because damage multipliers only multiply base+stat based damage (so the direct +damage from Armlet doesn't get multiplied by Bloodrage).
Janggo is better than everything because it's so absurdly cost effective. I just like armlet toggling to finish people off and then murder all their friends from the heal ^_^
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United States47024 Posts
On September 06 2012 15:20 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Because armlet is one of the best ways to feed on idiots. A lot of it comes down to game sense. If you can control the game and farm up that 3800 for a sacred relic then go for it, but remember that you're going to lose a colossal amount of money if you die. If you ever get behind as blood seeker you're in a world of trouble so it is simply too risky for a player of my caliber.
"risky"
That's probably the number 1 word I'd use to describe Armlet. In terms of straight-up effectiveness, it doesn't beat more conventional DPS items. You have to make use of armlet-juking survivability for it to be good, and dying because you misjudged someone's nuke CD is exactly that, risky.
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On September 06 2012 13:57 Haasts wrote:
° How important are sound cues in DotA2 compared w/LoL? I play LoL w/sound off, and I'm doing the same w/DotA2 (though I can't seem to disable the "Valve" sound effect when you launch the game, annoyingly) - however, since things seem to be less obvious visually (less crisp/cartoonish), is more of the burden of knowledge shunted off into recognising SFX?
I'm not sure how to comment on this in comparison to League, but in general I would say that sound queues are very important in DotA. There are a lot of skills that have really distinctive sound effects, such as Pudge's Dismember, several Wind Walk skills (Clinkz, Bounty Hunter, etc), Cold Snap from Invoker, Hex from Lion/Rhasta, etc. I wouldn't say you can't tell when things happen without the sounds but keeping them on will probably make you a better player in the long run.
° What are the common "holdover" terms from DotA1 still used commonly for DotA2 (I guess as a general de-Blizzard-ing/smoothing out)? e.g. TheYango calling Drums of Endurance Janggo (maybe he just likes typing out "ang(g)o" =p), casters referring to Shadow Shaman as Rhasta, etc.
This is pretty much all the ones I can think of (Dota 2 term on the left, DotA term on the right):
1) Mirana = PotM or Priestess of the Moon (this is one of the most common)
2) Shadow Shaman = Rhasta
3) Nyx Assassin = Nerub or Nerubian Assassin
4) Death Prophet = Krobelus
5) Skeleton King = Leoric
6) Lifestealer = N'aix
7) Riki = Stealth Assassin or SA
8) Lone Druid = Sylla (short for Syllabear)
9) Jakiro = THD or Twin Headed Dragon
10) Disruptor = Thrall
11) Outworld Destroyer = Obsidian Destroyer
12) Scythe of Vyse = Guinsoo's
13) Keeper of the Light = Ezalor (this isn't used much)
14) A handful of skills are occasionally referred to as Wind Walk (Clinkz, BH)
15) Similarly, the "blink and attack" skills of PA and Riki are sometimes both called Blink Strike
16) As you mentioned, Drums of Endurance = Janggo
On September 06 2012 14:57 wherebugsgo wrote:
Much better items on BS than Sange (though I'd say BS isn't a great hero to be playing, but to each their own) are things like forcestaff (particularly if you're ganking/want to get kills with ult), BKB, Assault Cuirass, butterfly.
Please, for the love of god, don't buy Force Staff on Bloodseeker.
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United States47024 Posts
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On September 06 2012 16:08 arnath wrote:Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 13:57 Haasts wrote:
° How important are sound cues in DotA2 compared w/LoL? I play LoL w/sound off, and I'm doing the same w/DotA2 (though I can't seem to disable the "Valve" sound effect when you launch the game, annoyingly) - however, since things seem to be less obvious visually (less crisp/cartoonish), is more of the burden of knowledge shunted off into recognising SFX?
I'm not sure how to comment on this in comparison to League, but in general I would say that sound queues are very important in DotA. There are a lot of skills that have really distinctive sound effects, such as Pudge's Dismember, several Wind Walk skills (Clinkz, Bounty Hunter, etc), Cold Snap from Invoker, Hex from Lion/Rhasta, etc. I wouldn't say you can't tell when things happen without the sounds but keeping them on will probably make you a better player in the long run. Show nested quote +
° What are the common "holdover" terms from DotA1 still used commonly for DotA2 (I guess as a general de-Blizzard-ing/smoothing out)? e.g. TheYango calling Drums of Endurance Janggo (maybe he just likes typing out "ang(g)o" =p), casters referring to Shadow Shaman as Rhasta, etc.
This is pretty much all the ones I can think of (Dota 2 term on the left, DotA term on the right): 1) Mirana = PotM or Priestess of the Moon (this is one of the most common) 2) Shadow Shaman = Rhasta 3) Nyx Assassin = Nerub or Nerubian Assassin 4) Death Prophet = Krobelus 5) Skeleton King = Leoric 6) Lifestealer = N'aix 7) Riki = Stealth Assassin or SA 8) Lone Druid = Sylla (short for Syllabear) 9) Jakiro = THD or Twin Headed Dragon 10) Disruptor = Thrall 11) Outworld Destroyer = Obsidian Destroyer 12) Scythe of Vyse = Guinsoo's 13) Keeper of the Light = Ezalor (this isn't used much) 14) A handful of skills are occasionally referred to as Wind Walk (Clinkz, BH) 15) Similarly, the "blink and attack" skills of PA and Riki are sometimes both called Blink Strike 16) As you mentioned, Drums of Endurance = Janggo Show nested quote +On September 06 2012 14:57 wherebugsgo wrote:
Much better items on BS than Sange (though I'd say BS isn't a great hero to be playing, but to each their own) are things like forcestaff (particularly if you're ganking/want to get kills with ult), BKB, Assault Cuirass, butterfly.
Please, for the love of god, don't buy Force Staff on Bloodseeker.
force staff on BS is actually pretty good if you go mid with him, as a ganker. If you're trying to go carry BS obviously you don't build it.
Force staffing to save yourself or to kill an opponent with your ulti is amazingly good. You ult them, forcestaff them toward you (doing damage) and they either sit there and take hits or they try to run and take damage. Free kill.
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