EPT[G]/[D] Why You Lose and How to Win -Using APM effectively…
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Flooz
United States37 Posts
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robopork
United States511 Posts
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JaKaTaKSc2
United States2787 Posts
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MrLlama
United States454 Posts
just an update on where I've been since I wrote this article and got back to my roots Last season: ended with a 13-3 with a 13 win streak in there (followed by 3 awful losses  )This season so far: 9-1 Stick to taking care of yourself and you'll do great! | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
That said, even at gold league, researching hallucination for scouting and making imaginary colossi help a lot. It doesn't even get in the way of macro. Send phoenix, take a look, go back, macro. Before engaging him, C-C-C-C for 2 meatshields which he may or may not focus fire, a-move, go back, macro. | ||
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MrLlama
United States454 Posts
On June 17 2012 10:57 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: I think you should put rough APM estimates per league as well. I'm gold right now but my winrate is almost 100% (maybe lose 1 game out of every 15, and usually I just slipped somewhere), and I'd feel comfortable playing how you describe Platinum or even Diamond. That said, even at gold league, researching hallucination for scouting and making imaginary colossi help a lot. It doesn't even get in the way of macro. Send phoenix, take a look, go back, macro. Before engaging him, C-C-C-C for 2 meatshields which he may or may not focus fire, a-move, go back, macro. if you are winning with a ratio over 90%, it's most likely you are much better than a gold player. If you are handling everything up to gold league, feel free to add in the platinum stuff and then diamond stuff if possible (in which case the things you say are things you should be working on right now). | ||
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Peanutbutter717
United States240 Posts
Once I realized this I climbed the ranks and got to masters in season 5. Seriously, the more you can just straight up macro and do basic unit movements (pulling back if youre in a bad position, using unit abilities like stim and storm), it will become almost second hand and feel natural that you find yourself able to do more, thus a higher APM. | ||
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Chronos.
United States805 Posts
Even focusing solely on macro while aomoving your army via the minimap can be great practice to get used to macro being the top priority. | ||
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MrLlama
United States454 Posts
On June 17 2012 12:35 Chronos. wrote: This is all pretty true, if you're in lower leagues you should only focus on macro pretty much and you'll win games. It doesn't really hurt to micro your units though, it's good practice for when you're in higher leagues and it's just more fun to do than macro. But if you're actually struggling to get out of those lower leagues, then this really should help. Even focusing solely on macro while aomoving your army via the minimap can be great practice to get used to macro being the top priority. Yeah and I think a big reason people don't see this is because of camera focus. When you get to masters league, your camera is focused on your army 80-90% of the time. Lower league players interpret this as "I should focus on my army 80-90% of the time" when in reality higher level players just get all of their macro done in a few seconds and with hotkeys since it is the most important thing, and then spend their extra time working on unit micro. | ||
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jodeci
Korea (South)2 Posts
Okay y'all. I first played a game online maybe about 10 days ago. I've probably played about 30 or so games online total... Playing offline I think was a waste of time. Playing online all the time even if I'm just practicing a technique helps to make it less stressful. Guess I've got nothing to lose unlike some of you. As mentioned above, the first 10 or so games I just got my ass handed to me. Badly. Around that time I figured out how to save replays. This is low bronze league stuff. Here's some examples. + Show Spoiler + By the way, I know that I'm fucking awful still, so keep that in mind if you look at the replays... In the game vs. SHODAN, I was constantly dicking around with my units and trying to be WhiteRa or something. As you can see that didn't work out very well. After reading Llama's thread here, I started winning a bunch of games. Then, something bad happened, vs Blaze. Around the 19 minute mark I finally move out. (After that, don't even bother watching unless you just want to laugh at how bad we suck.) I'm doing my crappy-ass macro, but at least I'm... mostly focusing on it. I get up a ton of stuff and basically A-move. All my stuff gets slaughtered. Why? He's all turtled up with siege tanks and I have a ball of stalkers. I think this is the kind of thing that is making people go say 'you can't just A-move', and made me a little sad. I mean, I was a good boy and focused on my macro and way out-macro-ed him, shouldn't I get a win? :< That kind of thing has led me to pushing out a little earlier as I did in the last game vs BadJuJu. Then, if I can tell they're turtling up in a certain way, I can at least come up with some simple counter before rolling out. The main thing I wanted to contribute other than some examples of how this really changed my approach, was that lately I've decided I just don't have the APM/attention to build 1 probe at a time. So, I've decided there's no harm in doing 2 at a time once the game is rolling. I mean, I'm only floating 50 extra minerals. When everything is settled, after doing a warp in, checking my robo/stargate, and queuing up 2 probes at each Nexus, I'm left with a little bit of free time with which to move a unit or two out using the minimap and check out what's up, or expand, or build an upgrade... I think it's really increased my probe output overall with very little drawbacks... | ||
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MrLlama
United States454 Posts
On June 17 2012 18:56 jodeci wrote: http://drop.sc/packs/1114 Okay y'all. I first played a game online maybe about 10 days ago. I've probably played about 30 or so games online total... Playing offline I think was a waste of time. Playing online all the time even if I'm just practicing a technique helps to make it less stressful. Guess I've got nothing to lose unlike some of you. As mentioned above, the first 10 or so games I just got my ass handed to me. Badly. Around that time I figured out how to save replays. This is low bronze league stuff. Here's some examples. + Show Spoiler + By the way, I know that I'm fucking awful still, so keep that in mind if you look at the replays... In the game vs. SHODAN, I was constantly dicking around with my units and trying to be WhiteRa or something. As you can see that didn't work out very well. After reading Llama's thread here, I started winning a bunch of games. Then, something bad happened, vs Blaze. Around the 19 minute mark I finally move out. (After that, don't even bother watching unless you just want to laugh at how bad we suck.) I'm doing my crappy-ass macro, but at least I'm... mostly focusing on it. I get up a ton of stuff and basically A-move. All my stuff gets slaughtered. Why? He's all turtled up with siege tanks and I have a ball of stalkers. I think this is the kind of thing that is making people go say 'you can't just A-move', and made me a little sad. I mean, I was a good boy and focused on my macro and way out-macro-ed him, shouldn't I get a win? :< That kind of thing has led me to pushing out a little earlier as I did in the last game vs BadJuJu. Then, if I can tell they're turtling up in a certain way, I can at least come up with some simple counter before rolling out. The main thing I wanted to contribute other than some examples of how this really changed my approach, was that lately I've decided I just don't have the APM/attention to build 1 probe at a time. So, I've decided there's no harm in doing 2 at a time once the game is rolling. I mean, I'm only floating 50 extra minerals. When everything is settled, after doing a warp in, checking my robo/stargate, and queuing up 2 probes at each Nexus, I'm left with a little bit of free time with which to move a unit or two out using the minimap and check out what's up, or expand, or build an upgrade... I think it's really increased my probe output overall with very little drawbacks... first off, good job on starting to play online It's definitely the best way to improve as you can see.I'm glad you were able to win games with my advice. Making 2 workers at a time when things get rolling really isn't bad at all. There are tons of players at all levels who do this and it's really not that killer. I'd say keep working though and you'll find that the more comfortable you are with the game and the units/what to build, the more apm you will have. This of course will allow you the more free time for other actions. And about the walking A-move into a siege line, yes sometimes this sucks. Like I said you aren't going to win 100% of your games and sometimes you will get smashed like that. That being said, a lot of the time even if that army gets crushed you can still just re-macro it up back home and still eventually crush their army. When you get higher up you'll leave your army outside for contain and expand/tech behind it and there are a lot of cute things, but for now I still think just improving that macro is the most important, even more important than winning every game. keep up the good work! | ||
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oZe
Sweden492 Posts
Like someone said, multitasking is the best skill to have. When you have it spending money will not be a problem anymore. It will probably take you longer to get it if you get into the habit of not caring about it. To a heterosexual male almost impossible ^^ Yeah you might have short term success focusing on your macro. But if you're in it to win GSL's forget about macro and multitask your ass off. However if you just want to get up one more league and be happy with that. You should probably just macro. I have focused to much on my macro, am usually appaled at how bad alot better players than me macro. Still I am stuck in gold. Think many master players take alot of micro for granted and don't really count it as micro. Maybe they think multitasking is somehow part of macro. Floating money is bad multitasking if you have the production facilities to be able to spend it. Not having enough money to spend is bad macro. Macro better is the mantra of bad teachers who don't know how to explain what to do to get better. To practice multitasking basics: Play easiest AI. Do your build. Make scvs & units nonstop. Take your expo. While you run around the center with your first attacking unit, I do between 2 watchtowers, no shift clicking allowed and he can never stop. Do this until you can do your build without getting high on money and run around unit never stops. Then add something you feel increases the difficulty in a manageable step. If you're serious about getting better you should probably do some mouse accuracy and keypressing practice also. Learning the perfect builds can wait, patches will make them irrelevant before your first GSL anyway =) | ||
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Feverus
71 Posts
On June 17 2012 18:56 jodeci wrote: http://drop.sc/packs/1114 Okay y'all. I first played a game online maybe about 10 days ago. I've probably played about 30 or so games online total... Playing offline I think was a waste of time. Playing online all the time even if I'm just practicing a technique helps to make it less stressful. Guess I've got nothing to lose unlike some of you. As mentioned above, the first 10 or so games I just got my ass handed to me. Badly. Around that time I figured out how to save replays. This is low bronze league stuff. Here's some examples. + Show Spoiler + By the way, I know that I'm fucking awful still, so keep that in mind if you look at the replays... In the game vs. SHODAN, I was constantly dicking around with my units and trying to be WhiteRa or something. As you can see that didn't work out very well. After reading Llama's thread here, I started winning a bunch of games. Then, something bad happened, vs Blaze. Around the 19 minute mark I finally move out. (After that, don't even bother watching unless you just want to laugh at how bad we suck.) I'm doing my crappy-ass macro, but at least I'm... mostly focusing on it. I get up a ton of stuff and basically A-move. All my stuff gets slaughtered. Why? He's all turtled up with siege tanks and I have a ball of stalkers. I think this is the kind of thing that is making people go say 'you can't just A-move', and made me a little sad. I mean, I was a good boy and focused on my macro and way out-macro-ed him, shouldn't I get a win? :< That kind of thing has led me to pushing out a little earlier as I did in the last game vs BadJuJu. Then, if I can tell they're turtling up in a certain way, I can at least come up with some simple counter before rolling out. The main thing I wanted to contribute other than some examples of how this really changed my approach, was that lately I've decided I just don't have the APM/attention to build 1 probe at a time. So, I've decided there's no harm in doing 2 at a time once the game is rolling. I mean, I'm only floating 50 extra minerals. When everything is settled, after doing a warp in, checking my robo/stargate, and queuing up 2 probes at each Nexus, I'm left with a little bit of free time with which to move a unit or two out using the minimap and check out what's up, or expand, or build an upgrade... I think it's really increased my probe output overall with very little drawbacks... Nope! No micro needed that game. After you killed his units on the low ground, you still had 2-3 times his army value. If you had brought your VRs with your main army (and an observer to see cloaked units) you would've stomped him. I mean it would've have been even remotely close. As it was, you lost because you had no vision of the high ground and eventually got beaten down with tanks and banshees blasting your army unhindered for an extended period of time. This is the one big mistake to fix. Otherwise, you would've won even a-moving into tanks on the high-ground with really bad macro (32 probes at 10:20 instead of 50-60) with most of your units stuck rubbing against each other in some sort of failure orgy. None of this is to criticize your play - it's sweet for that few games played. Instead, I'm trying to encourage by showing how much better you can be just by improving macro and fixing the one giant mistake that lost you this game. | ||
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-Strife-
United States8 Posts
While I agree in a standard game that macro should be the number 1 priority for us, the fact is that most games consist of a very solid timing attack which most people use every game. Me, for example learned a 7:30 roach bane all in that has taken out even master league players when not scouted and defended properly. My mechanics and game knowledge are nowhere near that of a masters but because i practiced one solid build on ladder until i became very good at executing it im able to take wins off much better players. My point is this...in ladder its hard to improve your gameplay by simply "focusing on macro" because most games dont get to that lategame stage where im floating 1k+ minerals and gas at 170 supply because i miss injects or supply blocked myself at some point. What I'd like to see is a post that helps noobs such as myself learn how to scout and defend these properly, as well as showing us some very safe builds that allow you to get to that late game where you start to get a feel for everything and really improve your macro and mechanics. Thanks for the post though it did have some very good advice <3 | ||
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MrLlama
United States454 Posts
On June 18 2012 09:17 -Strife- wrote: I see alot of these posts on how to help lower league players improve and though they all have good advice I really think you underestimate what lower leagues consist of. Im a plat zerg and i definitly belong there, in a standard game i will lose to a diamond player almost every time. However, almost every high gold and plat level matchup conists of both players doing timing pushes or all ins that they have executed countless times and have become very good at it. While I agree in a standard game that macro should be the number 1 priority for us, the fact is that most games consist of a very solid timing attack which most people use every game. Me, for example learned a 7:30 roach bane all in that has taken out even master league players when not scouted and defended properly. My mechanics and game knowledge are nowhere near that of a masters but because i practiced one solid build on ladder until i became very good at executing it im able to take wins off much better players. My point is this...in ladder its hard to improve your gameplay by simply "focusing on macro" because most games dont get to that lategame stage where im floating 1k+ minerals and gas at 170 supply because i miss injects or supply blocked myself at some point. What I'd like to see is a post that helps noobs such as myself learn how to scout and defend these properly, as well as showing us some very safe builds that allow you to get to that late game where you start to get a feel for everything and really improve your macro and mechanics. Thanks for the post though it did have some very good advice <3 I appreciate the way you phrased your post and how it respectful while still bringing up a different idea. Too many people simply have this, "I'm Gold League and there is nothing I can improve to get better except by scouting better and having amazing blink micro. You don't even know difficult until you try and hold off a 6gate timing push that hits me" attitude. That being said, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree somewhat with your post. Plat is one thing because in plat I agree you need to start scouting a little bit to get a general idea of what's going on and little things start to matter, but I still don't think you quite realize where your macro COULD BE at that level. When I was in plat/diamond I thought my macro was amazing and there was just a couple of things to improve but really it was complete ass. If I look back, I would get supply blocked a few times, not build drones immediately when I had larva, not queen transfer, miss a couple injects, and in the end it added up to a LOT of supply and a LOT of missed workers. With zerg it is even harder to realize because you are never "constantly" making drones, rather you are making them in waves and there are more decisions and that can be extremely difficult to teach. I like your idea about a post that helps learn how to scout and defend, as well as safe builds. Well, I like the part about the safe builds and maybe a basssiiiccc scouting idea. I think it's important to know "hey, I'm zerg on 2 bases and my terran opponent has been on 1 base for 7:40, there's probably a heavy attack coming soon so I should prepare for that because I'm way ahead on workers by now." I don't think it's important to know, "Alright, my protoss opponent took 4 geysers by 6:00 so there is more gas and he most likely won't be going for a fast 4/5/6 gate but rather be going for a 10:30 push that could be either blink stalker (though not as likely with 4 gas), sentry immortal (likely), double stargate (somewhat likely), or possibly taking a fast 3rd with sentries for the ff's." That's just WAY too much to try and learn at that level and frankly not important enough because if you just clean up everything else you will work your way up no problem and be able to deal with whatever they send at you. | ||
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-Strife-
United States8 Posts
Trust me i know my macro is shit. I look at replays of my games i thought i did really well in and cringe at how bad they are. That being said its hard to fuck up the macro on a banebust that caps at 60 supply or a marine tank push at 10 minutes especially with the sheer a mount of games spent doing them. Im not saying im not terrible...any illusion of greatness i have is quickly dispelled when i watch replays of my own games... Its just that alot of these builds dont take much effort to pull off (even us baddies in plat can manage) and are incredibly effective. They also flood the ladder which makes it hard to improve on what i would consider to be accual macro not following a strict build order to a certain time or supply which after the 20th time become muscle memory. I guess what im trying to say is that it doesnt seem as easy as "just dont focus on the little shit" when im getting straight rolled by well executed builds that are created by players far greater than the ones im going against but still really effective. I understand that im losing because my macro fails but i need more than someone telling me not to waste my apm showing that scrub toss that my 1 roach will kill off his 2 zealots...because then i have 2k minerals and 10 more zealots in my base. Like examples on how to safely play into a macro game without getting wrecked by a sentry immo all in or marine tank timing. I know its not as simple as LOLWTFNOOB just have -- drones by ----time and then constantly produce ----units. Though im sure its nothing that practice, studying replays and reading forums like this wont eventually help ^.^ | ||
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MrLlama
United States454 Posts
On June 18 2012 11:31 -Strife- wrote: "Plat is one thing because in plat I agree you need to start scouting a little bit to get a general idea of what's going on and little things start to matter, but I still don't think you quite realize where your macro COULD BE at that level." Trust me i know my macro is shit. I look at replays of my games i thought i did really well in and cringe at how bad they are. That being said its hard to fuck up the macro on a banebust that caps at 60 supply or a marine tank push at 10 minutes especially with the sheer a mount of games spent doing them. Im not saying im not terrible...any illusion of greatness i have is quickly dispelled when i watch replays of my own games... Its just that alot of these builds dont take much effort to pull off (even us baddies in plat can manage) and are incredibly effective. They also flood the ladder which makes it hard to improve on what i would consider to be accual macro not following a strict build order to a certain time or supply which after the 20th time become muscle memory. I guess what im trying to say is that it doesnt seem as easy as "just dont focus on the little shit" when im getting straight rolled by well executed builds that are created by players far greater than the ones im going against but still really effective. I understand that im losing because my macro fails but i need more than someone telling me not to waste my apm showing that scrub toss that my 1 roach will kill off his 2 zealots...because then i have 2k minerals and 10 more zealots in my base. Like examples on how to safely play into a macro game without getting wrecked by a sentry immo all in or marine tank timing. I know its not as simple as LOLWTFNOOB just have -- drones by ----time and then constantly produce ----units. Though im sure its nothing that practice, studying replays and reading forums like this wont eventually help ^.^ Like I said, zerg is really the hardest race to figure this out with because it is very reactionary. You're going to need to drone every chance you can, but still be able to prepare for pushes and such. I think a lot of it doesn't even revolve around scouting though, but rather just general knowledge. ZvT - this match up is one of the toughest to drone because terrans can hit you at anytime. You should just know if they are expanding first though. If they are not, get up to around 30 drones and then start to be a bit more defensive. If they do expand, you can go up to about 40-50 drones and then start to get more defensive (take a macro hatch as well). ZvZ - Of course this match up is just insane but if you keep some defensive banelings at your base and check for their army composition every now and then, you should be fine. There's obviously more to it, but that's a lot of it right there. At the very least just have overlords around the map for vision because they won't get focused down. ZvP - if he FFE, drone up until 8:00 and then make roaches and speedlings nonstop from there. You will be safe and have about 55-60 drones. If a push doesn't come and you see him take a 3rd, drone to 75-80 and threaten him with your army. -If he opens with gates, be cautious until you see him expand and then you can drone more and take a 3rd and such. | ||
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SCMothership
United States187 Posts
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Diplomate
France1 Post
Im a diamant protoss player who has terrible macro. I mean this thing about never cutting probes is not even well done for me, there are these games where I look the replay and 3-4 probes where missing in my 1 base pvp 13 minutes game... But still I think I deserve that league, and Im even playing masters sometimes. For instance when I get supply blocked, I tech or expand not to pay this mistake too much (sometimes I still pay it, ofc). Macro is definitely something important to work on, but I improved my play not focusing only on it. That question Im asking to my self "why did I lose this ? How to fix it 'at low cost' ?" after each lose looks like the better way to improve, imho. My macro has improved itself naturally the more I played games. Like my decision making, my micro, etc... My point is just that saying "Macro > all" is not true, at least the "macro" term is not accurate enough. "Spend your minerals and gas" as a golden rule, yes. "Work only your macro, the rest will come after", I dont think so. Finally, the way you are talking about the scouting is what illustrates the most what Im not agree with. Like you said, scouting is non sense if you dont know what to scout. But losing a game after a forge expand against a roach allin (before warp gate) tought me to scout if there is a third or not : it was useful when I was top gold ! And this way to learn what to scout and when scout it has to be worked on as soon as possible (at least at gold lvl). Maybe you will have some wrong ideas at the beginning but it is not the important point. Actually, the way I see the pvp matchup is very personnal and Im sure pro or at least better players could prove me than Im technically wrong, but still Im improving and adjusting my plays considering my experience looks like the better way to be better at this game. Sorry for my english, hope you get my point. | ||
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MrLlama
United States454 Posts
On June 18 2012 14:58 Diplomate wrote: Hi there (first post!) Im a diamant protoss player who has terrible macro. I mean this thing about never cutting probes is not even well done for me, there are these games where I look the replay and 3-4 probes where missing in my 1 base pvp 13 minutes game... But still I think I deserve that league, and Im even playing masters sometimes. For instance when I get supply blocked, I tech or expand not to pay this mistake too much (sometimes I still pay it, ofc). Macro is definitely something important to work on, but I improved my play not focusing only on it. That question Im asking to my self "why did I lose this ? How to fix it 'at low cost' ?" after each lose looks like the better way to improve, imho. My macro has improved itself naturally the more I played games. Like my decision making, my micro, etc... My point is just that saying "Macro > all" is not true, at least the "macro" term is not accurate enough. "Spend your minerals and gas" as a golden rule, yes. "Work only your macro, the rest will come after", I dont think so. Finally, the way you are talking about the scouting is what illustrates the most what Im not agree with. Like you said, scouting is non sense if you dont know what to scout. But losing a game after a forge expand against a roach allin (before warp gate) tought me to scout if there is a third or not : it was useful when I was top gold ! And this way to learn what to scout and when scout it has to be worked on as soon as possible (at least at gold lvl). Maybe you will have some wrong ideas at the beginning but it is not the important point. Actually, the way I see the pvp matchup is very personnal and Im sure pro or at least better players could prove me than Im technically wrong, but still Im improving and adjusting my plays considering my experience looks like the better way to be better at this game. Sorry for my english, hope you get my point. First, yes just because you don't have good macro doesn't mean you can't be in diamond. There are always exceptions and some players just have amazing unit control or amazing decision making and that helps get them further. That being said, you will almost always eventually hit a wall (unless you are the guy who 6 pooled his way into GM) and you will have to backup and clean up your macro to advance (or at least advance easier). I have been masters league for a while now but just recently did I really move into high masters and now I pretty much exclusively play top 8 masters players. This change really came from me cleaning up my macro, nothing else. I used to have pretty good macro and great unit control and that got me into masters, but even I hit a wall where I couldn't advance because of silly supply blocks or not enough worker creation. There is something I want to point out though, and this is a common misconception "Spend your minerals and gas" as a golden rule, yes. "Work only your macro, the rest will come after", I dont think so. Many people don't seem to realize that "spend your minerals and gas" is a horrible way to see how you are doing. Try to follow me as I explain. You do not want to be able to spend your minerals and gas that you have, but rather the minerals and gas that are unrealized or what you have yet to achieve. Example: Player 1 makes 40 scvs by 10 minutes. He has (madeup numbers) 10K minerals and 2K gas. He spends all 10K and 2K so he is spending it perfectly. Player 2 makes 50 scvs by 10 minutes. He has (madeup numbers) 13K minerals and 3K gas. He spend 11K minerals and 2.5K gas. He is left with 2K minerals and .5K gas. An observer in a lower league simply watching this would say, "Well hey look at that big bank that player 2 has, he isn't spending efficiently and thus is not as good/is behind where player 1 is right now." In actuality, Player 2 is not only ahead in resources spent (and thus more units/buildings), but he has a bank to spend in the future AND more scvs to continue bringing in even more income. Macro wins here. Just something to think about. | ||
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