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On June 10 2012 12:51 SEA KarMa wrote:
this is completely correct. Though even in masters there are still many plat/diamond advice that isnt used (i.e. more than 1 hotkey for army, controlling multi pronged attacks)
Which is why I said start at the bronze league advice and work your way up. Sometimes you are in a higher league because you have amazing decision making or unit micro or something, but you can still be lacking something from the gold league advice which could really help you out.
On a side note, since I wrote this guide I have gone 9-0 in my ladder games (with great macro, almost zero supply blocks, and all convincing wins). Sometimes it helps to get back to the basics and make sure you are doing all of that right first, even as a masters player.
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As someone really new to the game I found this to be a lifesaver. Working up from the bottom of the barrel in Bronze.
Yes, sometimes Bronze/Silver players cheese you / counter you and you lose doing this. You will always lose a few games.
I watched a bunch of pro games before starting to play ladder and I think it gave me a lot of bad ideas (was trying to do WAY too much stuff. Lost all of my first 10+ games).
Focusing only on macro I've suddenly started taking a ton of games. I have been teching more than you are saying but I think I'll cut it back because I still definitely miss tons of probes. I am planning on getting a forge up though because the upgrades can really make your unit advantage even better when you end up against a player with a non-idiotic unit composition like my huge ball of stalkers. Still too much?
One thing I'm having trouble with is expansions. Should I never go past 2 bases as a beginning player?
Also, I have been attacking and running around the map a little using only the minimap which is probably making my macro slip, but is just fun :D Can't help it. Watching the replays after to see the massacres. I usually have WAY more units than my opponent...
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On June 10 2012 16:40 jodeci wrote:
As someone really new to the game I found this to be a lifesaver. Working up from the bottom of the barrel in Bronze.
Yes, sometimes Bronze/Silver players cheese you / counter you and you lose doing this. You will always lose a few games.
I watched a bunch of pro games before starting to play ladder and I think it gave me a lot of bad ideas (was trying to do WAY too much stuff. Lost all of my first 10+ games).
Focusing only on macro I've suddenly started taking a ton of games. I have been teching more than you are saying but I think I'll cut it back because I still definitely miss tons of probes. I am planning on getting a forge up though because the upgrades can really make your unit advantage even better when you end up against a player with a non-idiotic unit composition like my huge ball of stalkers. Still too much?
One thing I'm having trouble with is expansions. Should I never go past 2 bases as a beginning player?
Also, I have been attacking and running around the map a little using only the minimap which is probably making my macro slip, but is just fun :D Can't help it. Watching the replays after to see the massacres. I usually have WAY more units than my opponent...
That is exactly the point I'm trying to make and I think a lot of people miss it. Sure you will lose games doing this, but you will lose games doing anything. The point is, as you showed, you will start to take control of a lot more games convincingly by getting up your core play as opposed to the smaller parts of it.
To answer your questions:
1. I think the additional tech is definitely unnecessary, especially if you are missing the basics of workers and probably warping units in every gate cycle. As for upgrades, I think 1-1 is acceptable right now, but don't be cutting things to get it yet. Just get it casually as you are continuing to get mass amounts of workers and units. If the game pushes over a lot later, feel free to throw up a twilight and get 2/2 but don't get blink or anything that requires unit control.
2. There is a lot of debate with expansions at the lower levels. The reason is because the more bases that you have, the more ground you have to cover and thus you can get overwhelmed. I think 2 bases is appropriate for the first time you go to max out or get at least 150+ supply. I think once you max and go for a push, taking a 3rd base is then appropriate as you will start to mine out of your main and if the game goes beyond that you will want to have places for your probes to mine. Then you can continue to add on and experiment with it and have fun in the late game but yeah you need to be careful with expanding too quickly as you will just get lost with all the bases.
3. Yeah you don't even really want to be watching at all right now, so it's good you are just using the minimap and then watching the massacre in your replays  Definitely try and keep macro #1 though! Then in the future you'll be able to watch your battles
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Thanks for watching the replay, I appreciate the feedback. I posted it in this thread mainly because I felt like it illustrated your points pretty well, otherwise I'd have made a help thread out of it.
1. Supply blocked at 36
Noticed that one on replay.
2. 5:55 - You start worrying about moving your overlord around outside the front of his base. You also just occuppied yourself with pulling off/putting drones on once again and you completely missed a full inject cycle already on your natural queen
Missed that one, thanks. Will check it. (edit) I take the point on the inject and drone pulls, but the overlord thing here and again at 6:30 was me trying to figure out if I was safe to keep droning.
3. 900 minerals at 8:00. You've been floating over 600 for a bit now and have had 11 larvae to spend.
Noticed that one too.
4. No queen at the 3rd for a bit.
I think I missed noticing that one, but I agree in hindsight.
That being said, ZvZ is a whole different ballgame when it comes to macro. Zerg in general is a little more difficult because you CAN'T make workers the whole game since you have to use larvae for units and workers. This is where it can difficult and while you think you are playing perfectly with master level macro, you aren't and it's hard to judge.
I don't actually think my macro was master level, despite how I may have phrased it (although I do think it was good for Platinum). I said my spending quotient number was master level (which is true) but I also think that spending quotient misses a lot of the story. Basically spending quotient measures how fast you gain resources and how efficiently you spend them, both of which I think I did pretty well on in this game (at least for Plat) but then it's one where I was left completely alone until 200/200, so I would expect a Zerg player of any league to macro better than normal in this situation.
You did a good job getting the drone lead early on, then you made a roach warren followed by THIRTY SEVEN ROACHES. Big attack after making them? nope, you just went back to droning.
Yeah, I think this was a big one. I think I had originally planned to do a big attack with +1 but then changed my mind for some reason and decided to add hydras and get to 200/200. It was not based on anything I scouted, just indecision, so I agree this is a flaw.
I think this is true and that's what failed you in this game, which is exactly a goal that I put in plat league for players to work on and exactly what you said about it proving the point. You maxed, charged over to his base, and then got all of your units caught on the up ramp. Something that you have to learn as a plat player with unit control is the "move forward stutter" that zerg needs to do. Notice how bad the range is for roaches and how little of them were actually able to attack. You saw that your army size was larger so what do you do? You do an attack, then move units up next to his army (right next to it) and let them attack again. This will let it be all of your units vs all of his units instead of 1/4 your units vs all of his units. This was a positioning loss game for the most part. You could also look to attack somewhere else instead of up a ramp towards his army, but even so you could have pushed forward with your units and made that work.
Thanks - pretty much what I had been thinking, but with some detail I was missing. Appreciate the tips.
"-I'd say platinum league should be the first time that you really touch infestors and mutalisks. They are both extremely fragile and time consuming so you want to make sure you are doing everything right elsewhere before you start using these units."
You didn't touch any infestor or muta tech. I think it would've been helpful to get once you maxed out and as you were pushing/slightly before so you could remax with some.
Agreed, and his infestors were a big factor in the game. I was maxed with the attack here so I could easily have included some. I have had games in which roach/hydra beats roach/infestor, but I think I missed the timing for that (either that or I engaged the wrong way for the composition).
"-Think about positioning now for engagements. If you can get a swarm on an army from multiple sides you will do MUCH more damage."
Once again I mention positioning would be huge in this league and you are exactly right that you needed a little more than macro here. If you did everything you did that game, and then came in with half your units for a flank in that battle, you win easy every time.
Thanks. When I say macro wasn't the reason I lost, I'm not saying my macro was perfect (as you pointed out, there was still plenty of room for improvement) just that it wasn't the weakest point in my game. My gut feeling after this one was that better engagements would have won it for me, and I agree that either flanking or your suggestion on the forward stutter would have done it.
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At least the gold part looks a little like "a way to stay in gold" or "a way to get into gold", but not the way to leave it really. I'm waiting for my promotion to plat right now, spent maybe about 100 games in here as Z. Not doing somewhat good scouting and not using infestors would make me lose against most of terrans and zergs, from my experience. In ZvT ling+roach would just lose me 9/10 games, in ZvZ not using infestors is not an option. Not going for a late game army even less. Protoss almost always do FFE and then go for a deathball, given a proper amount of sentries higher than 0, roaches/lings will just get crushed.
I really know I'm awful as hell, but I think the standards you point out (around gold-plat at least) don't describe the ways to somewhat work through those leagues. The high gold/plat games I do most times require me to do the things you describe in diamond (how well me & my opponent do them is a different question). Not scouting whether a T goes for bio/mech or a Z for mutas is a good way to lose 90% of gold games, really.
While the percentage of "bad" players might be pretty high still in gold, you wouldn't believe the amount of 6/7 gates that hit me at 8:30-9:00 (4 in 5 games vs P), the amount of Protosses holding off max roaches, the amount of Terrans properly spreading marines, Terrans going for well timed mech and Zergs using infestors (mandatory in most games) and doing smooth transitions.
But in the end I need to say, all this is being said by someone who is doing his way out of gold right now. If the golds I match don't have a star on their fancy rank symbol, I simply crush them, only the high golds/plats I play against really play on my level. So the things you described aren't too far off. Depends on the standpoint I guess.
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Low diamond zerg here, and I feel I fit your advice pretty well. I feel confident with most things in bronze-gold, feel that I'm starting to master the things in platinum, and currently working on (but still not capable of doing) most of the things in diamond. Think my focus for improvement is more or less on track then. Thanks!
Was so happy a few weeks ago when I did the 12-min roach max and for teh first time actually was maxed by 12 mins!
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[QUOTE]On June 09 2012 07:05 MrLlama wrote:
Bronze/Silver
[spoiler]Basics:
+ Show Spoiler +-There is no reason for scouting at this level. Strong macro should win out 99% of the time regardless of what your opponent is doing.
-Always build workers. Always.
-Keep your eyes in your base 95% of the time or more. If you ever watch a replay, you will see your macro fails when you are not looking at your base. Wait until you are a higher level before diverting your attention.
-You should be able to A-move any army if you have good macro and win the game at this level. Thus, do not worry about tiny attacks or drops or timing windows. Simply macro up a large army, and A move to his base.
[QUOTE]
I played a ladder game as zerg against a protoss. Played a macro game, my macro was way better.
He built a deathball of voidrays and killed me cuz I didnt scout. But hey you did say 99% of the time.
Anyway it would be cool if we didnt have the same thread every 2 months and the community would make liquidpedia worth a dam.
That would help a lot of people on the ladder.
Edit: aperently I forgot how to do quotes now -.-
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On June 10 2012 17:56 Tevian wrote:
At least the gold part looks a little like "a way to stay in gold" or "a way to get into gold", but not the way to leave it really. I'm waiting for my promotion to plat right now, spent maybe about 100 games in here as Z. Not doing somewhat good scouting and not using infestors would make me lose against most of terrans and zergs, from my experience. In ZvT ling+roach would just lose me 9/10 games, in ZvZ not using infestors is not an option. Not going for a late game army even less. Protoss almost always do FFE and then go for a deathball, given a proper amount of sentries higher than 0, roaches/lings will just get crushed.
I really know I'm awful as hell, but I think the standards you point out (around gold-plat at least) don't describe the ways to somewhat work through those leagues. The high gold/plat games I do most times require me to do the things you describe in diamond (how well me & my opponent do them is a different question). Not scouting whether a T goes for bio/mech or a Z for mutas is a good way to lose 90% of gold games, really.
While the percentage of "bad" players might be pretty high still in gold, you wouldn't believe the amount of 6/7 gates that hit me at 8:30-9:00 (4 in 5 games vs P), the amount of Protosses holding off max roaches, the amount of Terrans properly spreading marines, Terrans going for well timed mech and Zergs using infestors (mandatory in most games) and doing smooth transitions.
But in the end I need to say, all this is being said by someone who is doing his way out of gold right now. If the golds I match don't have a star on their fancy rank symbol, I simply crush them, only the high golds/plats I play against really play on my level. So the things you described aren't too far off. Depends on the standpoint I guess.
I think my advice is geared to say "if you are in gold, these are the things you need to work on so you will start to play vs platinum players. Then you can start working on the play goals and you should be able to advance to plat." So a lot of it I suppose is how you look at it.
That being said, you bring up a few points that I'd like to dispute
" Not doing somewhat good scouting and not using infestors would make me lose against most of terrans and zergs, from my experience. In ZvT ling+roach would just lose me 9/10 games, in ZvZ not using infestors is not an option. Not going for a late game army even less. Protoss almost always do FFE and then go for a deathball, given a proper amount of sentries higher than 0, roaches/lings will just get crushed."
The big thing you say is that you need infestors at this level and I think that's not true at all. I can easily win more than 50% of my games at my level without infestors or mutas If I want to. The big one you say is that you cannon win a zvz without infestors. Very very not true. Teching up to infestors is actually tricky and I have won many games with just strong ling/roach/bane pushes because I catch my opponent trying to tech to infestors. In the video here Stephano analysis you can watch as neither stephano nor nestea tech up to infestors. I myself have lots of games where I don't make the tech switch and my opponent does and it doesn't matter (and these are masters players with much better control than gold). Vs a protoss who does FFE into a nice ball, I promise if you can do the 12 minute stephano max (this includes hitting 68+ supply or more by 8 minutes) then you can A move every time and crush him.
On June 10 2012 18:57 Cascade wrote:Low diamond zerg here, and I feel I fit your advice pretty well. I feel confident with most things in bronze-gold, feel that I'm starting to master the things in platinum, and currently working on (but still not capable of doing) most of the things in diamond. Think my focus for improvement is more or less on track then. Thanks! Was so happy a few weeks ago when I did the 12-min roach max and for teh first time actually was maxed by 12 mins!
Congrats! Yeah it's extremely powerful when done right.
On June 10 2012 19:10 CrtBalorda wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 07:05 MrLlama wrote:Bronze/Silver[spoiler] Basics:+ Show Spoiler +-There is no reason for scouting at this level. Strong macro should win out 99% of the time regardless of what your opponent is doing.
-Always build workers. Always.
-Keep your eyes in your base 95% of the time or more. If you ever watch a replay, you will see your macro fails when you are not looking at your base. Wait until you are a higher level before diverting your attention.
-You should be able to A-move any army if you have good macro and win the game at this level. Thus, do not worry about tiny attacks or drops or timing windows. Simply macro up a large army, and A move to his base. I played a ladder game as zerg against a protoss. Played a macro game, my macro was way better. He built a deathball of voidrays and killed me cuz I didnt scout. But hey you did say 99% of the time. Anyway it would be cool if we didnt have the same thread every 2 months and the community would make liquidpedia worth a dam. That would help a lot of people on the ladder.
Exactly, there are going to be games that you lose right now which is why I said 99% of the time. The point is that over the course of multiple games, you will start to have more stuff any thus be able to win more games that aren't crazy weird like that.
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I like the point that some players focus on smaller, less relevant details of pro players. I think a great way to learn the game is to master 1 base timings, one at a time. And then move on to 2 base timings, and move forward to more bases.
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On June 11 2012 00:29 zmansman17 wrote:
I like the point that some players focus on smaller, less relevant details of pro players. I think a great way to learn the game is to master 1 base timings, one at a time. And then move on to 2 base timings, and move forward to more bases.
Yeah this is why I hesitate when players in bronze/silver ask if they can take 3-4+ bases. It's hard enough to cover everything on 1 base or 2 bases so by going for 3-4 there's a good chance you will get lost.
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I feel like you overestimate Terran units somehow. There is no way to beat a Protoss in gold without stutter stepping reasonably well. As well a 2:1 ration for vikings is maybe appropriate in masters league if you have insane good viking control but trust me a platinum level player will get raped by collos play if he has only a 2:1 ratio. Another point I would mention is that the real tricky part with getting better is no obsessing about winning. It is really a horrible feeling when you start only playing for the wins because you think that makes you better. As well when you reach diamond you should start getting some different builds for just one matchup. Up to then 1 build is enough for every matchup.
Speaking from EU Master Terrans point of view
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agree with most of this but as more and more guides like this keep appearing and how to you tube videos the gap is closing bz to plat
im gold, and if i strictly followed the BSG advice here i think i would lose more than 50% of my games.
I know from experience looking at the base gets you killed. Doing no scouting gets you killed. I feel you should always send a drone to look for 1 thing gas/exp and an over lord sac at 6 mins
this very very basic shift click and back to base can give you peace of mind to know if hes doing a 1 base all in or some kind of cheese. lets face it, if u send a drone against a T and theres nothing there at least you know 6 lings will deal with any kind of early proxy cheese while ur spine builds.
Ive been bunker rushed in silver league (could of been a smurf tho) and he microed a marine and wiped 6 lings out he then did a number on my pulled probes, the bunker went up and he was going in and out really well. I would never have seen it coming if i didnt send initial ovie and d scout and my 2nd ovie to my nat. a shift click scout should be part of BSG level stuff.
2 lings on towers essential against P. In silver league its a 4gate heaven. DONT look at the base in this mu and stare at the minimap ull find the probe he sends to proxy. if uve macroed well and got ur roaches up when you see this its an ista win for you
of course i agree with everything said but i think apm isnt that important, being able to efficiently build structures and units with no mistakes at the right times with enough knowledge to notice rising minerals and beable to dump it will improve it automatically.
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On June 11 2012 08:19 Puritas wrote:I feel like you overestimate Terran units somehow. There is no way to beat a Protoss in gold without stutter stepping reasonably well. As well a 2:1 ration for vikings is maybe appropriate in masters league if you have insane good viking control but trust me a platinum level player will get raped by collos play if he has only a 2:1 ratio. Another point I would mention is that the real tricky part with getting better is no obsessing about winning. It is really a horrible feeling when you start only playing for the wins because you think that makes you better. As well when you reach diamond you should start getting some different builds for just one matchup. Up to then 1 build is enough for every matchup. Speaking from EU Master Terrans point of view
I think you underestimate the power of macro somehow.
With gold level macro, you will engage his army without stutter stepping and lose.
With higher level macro, you will engage his army without stutter stepping and dominate him
How do you get to that higher level macro? you practice it and stop focusing on the little things like stutter steps and moving your scv around in his base constantly as you slowly let your macro slip.
On June 11 2012 09:09 StatixEx wrote:
agree with most of this but as more and more guides like this keep appearing and how to you tube videos the gap is closing bz to plat
im gold, and if i strictly followed the BSG advice here i think i would lose more than 50% of my games.
I know from experience looking at the base gets you killed. Doing no scouting gets you killed. I feel you should always send a drone to look for 1 thing gas/exp and an over lord sac at 6 mins
this very very basic shift click and back to base can give you peace of mind to know if hes doing a 1 base all in or some kind of cheese. lets face it, if u send a drone against a T and theres nothing there at least you know 6 lings will deal with any kind of early proxy cheese while ur spine builds.
Ive been bunker rushed in silver league (could of been a smurf tho) and he microed a marine and wiped 6 lings out he then did a number on my pulled probes, the bunker went up and he was going in and out really well. I would never have seen it coming if i didnt send initial ovie and d scout and my 2nd ovie to my nat. a shift click scout should be part of BSG level stuff.
2 lings on towers essential against P. In silver league its a 4gate heaven. DONT look at the base in this mu and stare at the minimap ull find the probe he sends to proxy. if uve macroed well and got ur roaches up when you see this its an ista win for you
of course i agree with everything said but i think apm isnt that important, being able to efficiently build structures and units with no mistakes at the right times with enough knowledge to notice rising minerals and beable to dump it will improve it automatically.
I think you are still stuck in the typical gold mindset, which is where you think your macro is already at a decent level and that adding a few extra units to your army is the max you'll be able to do and thus it won't be worth it.
This is very common and it's EXTREMELY hard to see past because it's very hard to tell when you are macroing better. When I was in diamond I thought I had perfect macro and just needed to work on unit micro or better scouting to advance into masters. I slowly started to move up into masters but if you look at the replays, it's because I droned more, got supply blocked less, and overall just had larger armies to win the game with. And now when I go back and look at my diamond macro I'm disgusted at how pitiful it actually was.
The effect that it will have is insane. As an example I would like to present an example from a game I just played.
ZVP
He does FFE, I take 3 bases. I macro very well and have a 200/200 army by around 11:30 with +1 done. I tried to scout his base on multiple occasions but he has stalkers at all the brims and picks off my overlords (and I don't make an overseer because I don't feel like it since I know if he tries to push me now off 2 base then my max army can meet him outside, I can remax, and be fine).
12:00 hits, my roaches are now 1/1 and I start to move towards his base where I encounter about 7-8 carriers at the watch tower. I throw down spores at my main, throw down a spire, and walk my 200/200 army right into his base where I kill off both of his nexus, his stargates, his cybernetics core, and all of his buildings. He gg's out because let's face it, it was gg and I had about 15-20 corrupters ready to be made plus all of my spores.
This is a classic example of macro just being amazingly strong. Even without knowing he was going carriers, because I was at 200/200 with 1/1 upgrades and 75 drones to remax as needed, I didn't even need to have an anti-air unit to win the game.
So, that's all I have to say about that.
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hey- I am a silver player, and I do agree with what you stated regarding players overusing APM. I do it subconsiously, and it really does hurt my gameplay sometimes. However. i honestly think as a master player, you have completely underestimated us silver/gold players. What you said about controling-1-ing your entire army, and winning games through macroing- made things way too simple... i honestly don't think you can get to gold/plat by simply macroing and creating workers.
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On June 11 2012 14:05 findingthelimit wrote:
hey- I am a silver player, and I do agree with what you stated regarding players overusing APM. I do it subconsiously, and it really does hurt my gameplay sometimes. However. i honestly think as a master player, you have completely underestimated us silver/gold players. What you said about controling-1-ing your entire army, and winning games through macroing- made things way too simple... i honestly don't think you can get to gold/plat by simply macroing and creating workers.
I'd like to play a game vs you where I maintain under 50 apm and only make workers and have good macro. I think you'll be surprised.
send me a message and we can play.
Edit: as I said up in the post above, it's very difficult to understand how much it would help you because you haven't really seen it in effect. If you don't wanna play and instead just want to see it, watch any ZvP in silver league or gold league and jump to 12 minutes (where you can have the 12 minute max roaches from good macro). Now Imagine that there is a 200/200 roach army at the door of the protoss army and tell me who would win that fight.
If you answered the 200/200 roach army, that's probably right unless he's playing a smurf protoss who is masters league+
This is one example but it carries over into every match up (though it's easier to visualize here)
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On June 11 2012 14:15 MrLlama wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 14:05 findingthelimit wrote:
hey- I am a silver player, and I do agree with what you stated regarding players overusing APM. I do it subconsiously, and it really does hurt my gameplay sometimes. However. i honestly think as a master player, you have completely underestimated us silver/gold players. What you said about controling-1-ing your entire army, and winning games through macroing- made things way too simple... i honestly don't think you can get to gold/plat by simply macroing and creating workers. I'd like to play a game vs you where I maintain under 50 apm and only make workers and have good macro. I think you'll be surprised. send me a message and we can play. Edit: as I said up in the post above, it's very difficult to understand how much it would help you because you haven't really seen it in effect. If you don't wanna play and instead just want to see it, watch any ZvP in silver league or gold league and jump to 12 minutes (where you can have the 12 minute max roaches from good macro). Now Imagine that there is a 200/200 roach army at the door of the protoss army and tell me who would win that fight. If you answered the 200/200 roach army, that's probably right unless he's playing a smurf protoss who is masters league+ This is one example but it carries over into every match up (though it's easier to visualize here)
honestly, you will destroy me with 20 apm. maybe i didn't make my point well enough; what i was trying to say is that, even though macro management is indeed prioritized over micro-ing in lower leagues like silver/gold, at least a decent amount of knowledge is still required, such as understanding unit compositions, build orders and such; i don't think you can argue that being good at macro is more important / superior. Besides, us noobs like to understand the game as well, and knowing what to scout for, responding adaquately is part of the fun.
We all like to win, but if in your standpoint, winning means constantly and blindly creating workers, that really defeats the purpose of enjoying the game in the first place.
Obviously i have a lot to learn. peace
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It is ridiculous to assume that anyone in gold or even lower will hit max at 12 minutes. Completely without being pylon blocked and rushed, maybe. I told you before, and I'll do it again, 4/5 FFE games end up with 6 or 7 gates at 8:30-9:00 in gold league and if it wasn't for my opponents being idiots at times, I'd lose to them 70% of times. My execution is bad, but so is my opponents' a lot. In any case, you can't just look at your base and do nothing about a 7 gate.
I think you are seriously underestimating the lower leagues. When was the last time you spent more than 10 games in silver, gold and plat leagues, respectively? The prevalence of good build orders, constant scouting and usage of hotkeys might be really surprising to you.
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I very much so agree with the OP; if you're using your APM in the wrong place it can win you the game, but a lot of times you end up with lots of minerals and lots of army in your base killing you.
Again, the OP is correct when he says you should allocate more APM to the detaily things when you get better. It's necessary to practice APM-stressing situations like harass + macro and whatnot, because (for example) I have 200 APM and when I offrace as Protoss I CANNOT warp prism harass and macro even though I played Protoss from Diamond to Masters. The reason is basically that I didn't stress my APM enough as I got better.
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On June 11 2012 14:46 findingthelimit wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 11 2012 14:15 MrLlama wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2012 14:05 findingthelimit wrote:
hey- I am a silver player, and I do agree with what you stated regarding players overusing APM. I do it subconsiously, and it really does hurt my gameplay sometimes. However. i honestly think as a master player, you have completely underestimated us silver/gold players. What you said about controling-1-ing your entire army, and winning games through macroing- made things way too simple... i honestly don't think you can get to gold/plat by simply macroing and creating workers. I'd like to play a game vs you where I maintain under 50 apm and only make workers and have good macro. I think you'll be surprised. send me a message and we can play. Edit: as I said up in the post above, it's very difficult to understand how much it would help you because you haven't really seen it in effect. If you don't wanna play and instead just want to see it, watch any ZvP in silver league or gold league and jump to 12 minutes (where you can have the 12 minute max roaches from good macro). Now Imagine that there is a 200/200 roach army at the door of the protoss army and tell me who would win that fight. If you answered the 200/200 roach army, that's probably right unless he's playing a smurf protoss who is masters league+ This is one example but it carries over into every match up (though it's easier to visualize here) honestly, you will destroy me with 20 apm. maybe i didn't make my point well enough; what i was trying to say is that, even though macro management is indeed prioritized over micro-ing in lower leagues like silver/gold, at least a decent amount of knowledge is still required, such as understanding unit compositions, build orders and such; i don't think you can argue that being good at macro is more important / superior. Besides, us noobs like to understand the game as well, and knowing what to scout for, responding adaquately is part of the fun. We all like to win, but if in your standpoint, winning means constantly and blindly creating workers, that really defeats the purpose of enjoying the game in the first place. Obviously i have a lot to learn. peace
sure it can be good to understand unit compositions, but I think that's something you shouldn't get too detailed with yet. Instead of worrying about what to make, just make stuff. And you say I will destroy you with 20apm, so why can't anybody else at that level as well? My plan was to not go ahead of tier 1.5 units and just show up at your door with 3x the army which will roll all of your attempts at teching (until you get higher up in which case THAT is the time to learn the appropriate tech counters and unit compositions and such).
This next example is how I feel a lot of the conversation is going:
Master chess player: "Stop focusing on thinking 10 moves ahead and learning all of the little late game tricks. Right now you just need to learn basics like openers and if you have your pawns on the white squares, your dark square bishop is more valuable."
The learning player: "But if I just learn about which bishop is more valuable I'll never win a game! I need to learn the game ending move and all of the possible checkmate situations if I ever want to win!"
But the thing is, if the learning player starts to learn better openers and understand value of pieces, he can make better trades and he will suddenly start to FIND himself at the end game with a lot more units and easy checkmates. Sure he is not going to beat the master player, but that's an unreasonable goal right now. Play the early game better (with better macro in SC2) and you will find how much more stuff you have at the end to win with.
On June 11 2012 14:54 Tevian wrote:
It is ridiculous to assume that anyone in gold or even lower will hit max at 12 minutes. Completely without being pylon blocked and rushed, maybe. I told you before, and I'll do it again, 4/5 FFE games end up with 6 or 7 gates at 8:30-9:00 in gold league and if it wasn't for my opponents being idiots at times, I'd lose to them 70% of times. My execution is bad, but so is my opponents' a lot. In any case, you can't just look at your base and do nothing about a 7 gate.
I think you are seriously underestimating the lower leagues. When was the last time you spent more than 10 games in silver, gold and plat leagues, respectively? The prevalence of good build orders, constant scouting and usage of hotkeys might be really surprising to you.
If you are being pylon blocked, then you aren't macroing well enough and are diverting your attention too much and should spend more time in your base focusing on building those pylons.
That being said, I'm not saying you have to be maxed by 12:00 with roaches or whatever. I'm saying the majority of games that I watch silver/gold league players (I do coaching and I have a free replay analysis stream 5 days a week so I have seen WAY more than 10 games in bronze/silver/gold than you think) they barely are at 110 supply by 12 minutes (as zerg). If I can get them up to 160 or so, that's 25 more roaches in their army which is a huge difference if they fight then.
Also, this is why I don't think you should be taking a 3rd base yet. I understand why players take the 3rd base but at that level a lot of players simply don't have the macro or apm to cover 3 bases effectively (or even utitlize all of the macro potential that it brings). A lot of this is because most players don't understand the game enough, they just see the pros do it and therefore they should do it.
Here is my example:
When I take 3 bases, I have 70 supply at 8 minutes. This consists of 60 drones, 4 queens, and 4 lings (roughly).
I have 16 workers on each mineral line (48 drones total) and 4 gas taken by then (12 drones).
This gives me perfect mineral saturation and I have good enough gas saturation to pump a couple waves of units to hold off their 9 minute 6gate or w/e they hit with.
When a bronze/silver/gold player has 3 bases, they usually have around 55 supply at 8 minutes. This consists of 40 drones, 3 queens, and then units (lings/roaches mix) because they don't understand the pressure that a FFE can bring.
They have 20 drones at 1 base, 8 at the other, and 6 at the 3rd base (34 drones). Then they have 2 geysers taken and filled. (6 drones). This is not always the case, but I'm bringing up my most previous example of a silver player I just watched.
The point is, they can't hold 3 bases with that. Hell, they can't even saturate 2 bases yet so why bother trying to make/defend the 3rd??
If he just sat on 2 bases he could have 17 drones at each base on minerals (16 is optimal, the next 8 get half as much income, and then anything beyond 24 brings no income) and then have his 2 gas. Heck, he could probably have more because he now has the extra 300 minerals he didn't spend on that early hatch and he probably is doing a little better only managing 2 bases instead of 3. He could also drop spines and only have to defend 1 base instead of 2, as well as have out more units to defend with since once again he is not invested in that 3rd hatch which has yet to payoff. If you don't understand that yet, it's okay, but listen to casters/pros when they say "ohhh he just took an expansion and is getting it saturated so right now he is vulnerable." Expansions take a couple minutes before they start to payoff for their cost/the cost to saturate them. In these zergs cases, they never reach the point of payoff and it ends up hurting them more than helping them.
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If you're new to the game, having good macro is way better will benefit you better than any other thing in the game. That's why it's called "mechanics" - it's the engine of your game. Driving skill might matter at times, but, simply put, the guy with better specs has way better chances of winning than the one running on steam engine.
So ye, I agree with the author, before thinking of fancy stuff like stutter-stepping/blink micro'ing/splitting try keeping your maco at a considerable level.
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EPT
