[G]/[D] Why You Lose and How to Win -Using APM effectively…

On June 09 2012 17:45 Elisterre wrote:
I really like this post, I am a Platinum Zerg. It looks like there are a lot of things I can start working on.

I have 1 question, what can I do to try and increase my APM? I seem to be APM "capped" at about 50 when I am trying my hardest all game, and in worse games I go as low as 30 APM average.

When I watch replays, my opponents rarely average below 70ish and a lot go 80+. It seems like I still have about a 50% winrate against my Platinum opponents, yet my APM is so much lower.

Do you have any basic recommendations that would help me bring this number up? Thanks.

On June 09 2012 17:14 Cracy wrote:
As a silver level player I must say this is a single most useful thread I have seen in this forum ever and I read most of them

Despite the discussion which is welcomed, it shows something which I didn't figure out myself until recently (and not without a huge help of someone else, Hi Lennox

People tend to forget that you have to learn waking before you run and thank you for reminding us this. I agree it is very detrimental to try to do all the fancy things you see pros do. And you try...

Back to basics...

On June 09 2012 17:45 Elisterre wrote:
I really like this post, I am a Platinum Zerg. It looks like there are a lot of things I can start working on.

I have 1 question, what can I do to try and increase my APM? I seem to be APM "capped" at about 50 when I am trying my hardest all game, and in worse games I go as low as 30 APM average.

When I watch replays, my opponents rarely average below 70ish and a lot go 80+. It seems like I still have about a 50% winrate against my Platinum opponents, yet my APM is so much lower.

Do you have any basic recommendations that would help me bring this number up? Thanks.

On June 10 2012 00:26 Allenansgar wrote:
I know the focus on the Bronze / Silver is pure macro, but on Filter's "Bronze to Masters" thread, there are a lot of bronze players QQing that they are getting cheesed and attacked with all-in stealth plays.

I understand that the benchmarks are all recommendations not laws. Just wondering if there is any value for scouting naturals in like the high bronze / silver league and is there a benchmark to consider getting stealth detection?

Filter put some benchmarks up for Terran players to shoot for, 50SCV 100 Food @ 10 minutes with a expansion started at 3:45ish. I have been practicing like mad to hit that number.

It seems the high masters are putting together some great coaching threads.

Thanks a lot!

On June 10 2012 00:51 MagnuMizer wrote:
nice! excellent write-up.. I agree with everything platinum and onwards ( i've never myself been anything below platinum so dunno if that advice is correct, but it seems good so im gonna go ahead and give you the thumbs up on that one).

Analyzing progress like this can be very hard... its like noticing the change in your appearance overtime by looking in the mirror everyday for 2 years... like, I feel that I don't really play that differently as when i was in platinum league - I am now master, so there must have been something that changed LOL... but i think its cool you are able to give advice on different leagues.. can be quite hard to see the game from all those different perspectives! so good job on that..

and thanks for the tips!

On June 10 2012 03:43 dUTtrOACh wrote:
I don't know, but my strategy of always playing faster than what feels comfortable and scouting my ass off works just fine for me in high Platinum / lower Diamond. I don't think I lack "experience" to react to my constant information and I definitely feel like using mutas and other micro intensive units since the early days in bronze league have made my hotkeys and unit control something of a non-issue. I'd say what kills me most of the time is my eagerness to kill my opponent, which is something I've been working on, only it's hard for me to not be hurting them all game and scouting all the time to make the right units when I need them. I find sitting around and macroing with limited information to be a very poor way of playing in Platinum, and I almost feel as if the OP is out of touch with Platinum league skill level at the moment. To say you need nothing more than a basic scout and to check for an expansion to detect an all-in is almost advice I would give to silver or gold league players, since most Platinum players should know this by then. If anything, it's more important to scout much more and increase your understanding of what your opponents are doing and what kind of timings they can come at you with. To mostly ignore your opponent's build and focus on yourself is pretty much the way to lose in Platinum league at this point. It's not as terrible as you may think.

On June 10 2012 04:01 FayZe wrote:
I disagree with the bronze/silver part. I say try to actually scout, this is just for cheese and knowing the enemy's position. You literally need to scout since lower leagues are just unpredicatable, 4gates and 7-8min Banshee rushes could come from anywhere.

On June 10 2012 04:14 MrLlama wrote:
I think filterSC does a great job showcasing that this is not the case at all. The point is, at those levels the other players aren't going to be coming out with these perfect rushes or timing pushes that you couldn't hold with simply good macro.

I've played some games at that level and held 4 gates with only queens while droning non-stop behind it. the point is, they don't hit as hard there and you should be fine assuming you are taking care of everything else correctly.

Do not get any unit for harrass, just a unit to add to your army for more damage/tankability/versatility.

On June 10 2012 04:14 MrLlama wrote:


I think it's good to definitely develop your mechanics and unit micro and such, but in terms of utilizing your APM for the best it can be, it's better to get down your macro and, in my opinion, in the order of the steps I provided.

I don't think I'm out of touch with platinum considering I coach a lot of platinum players. I watch their games, and 95% of the time they lose is because they are missing their macro benchmarks, not because they didn't have a scout on their opponents base when he went for an 8 gate all in. I don't scout the 8 gate all in plenty of times yet I hold it because I have 30 more units to defend with than the platinum player.

First work on yourself, then work on scouting your opponent. I feel this is the best way to improve.






I think filterSC does a great job showcasing that this is not the case at all. The point is, at those levels the other players aren't going to be coming out with these perfect rushes or timing pushes that you couldn't hold with simply good macro.

I've played some games at that level and held 4 gates with only queens while droning non-stop behind it. the point is, they don't hit as hard there and you should be fine assuming you are taking care of everything else correctly.

On June 10 2012 04:52 FayZe wrote:


I really don't know the last time you've played a high bronze or silver player, but they actually know what they're doing and aren't as mentally incapacitated as you may think they are. Sure, mid to late game macro isn't what you call top notch but they have build orders down. Especially for simple 4gates, I doubt you held it with queens while droning behind it. That's a terrible exaggeration when they can hit the benchmarks at 5:50 keep warping waves of zealots to counter defensive zerglings and stalkers for your queens. Bronze and Silver maybe lower leagues but they're nowhere near retarded to abstain from basic things like scouting.

All in all, extremely nice guide with a few over-exaggerations into lower league play.

On June 10 2012 05:06 Kraidio wrote:


I think by the time you are Terran and at Gold, you need to be harassing. Against equally macro-managing Protoss and Zerg opponents, ramming big pushes into your opponents over and over again is very likely to lose you the game.

On June 10 2012 09:45 Chutoro wrote:
Here is a classic example of why macro alone isn't enough to win games in Platinum:

http://drop.sc/195021

This was one of my best macro performances ever in terms of injects and keeping my minerals low, with a spending quotient number of Masters+ (admittedly not a fair statistic, since that's averaged across all games and in this one I was left alone to macro). I was maxed at 14 minutes and just threw my army at the opponent without worrying about where I engaged. I got destroyed by a Gold player because of bad engagements.

I think this illustrates your point about engagements being important in Platinum (arguably Gold if my opponent is any guide).

On June 10 2012 10:33 Larkin wrote:
I have to disagree with a lot of what you have said. Players have to get basics down, correct. But this does not mean "don't scout." This does not mean "don't get sentries." This does not mean "just get a tier1 army and 1a."

If players don't start using everything, they will come to a situation like your friend - they will find a player who can hold their mass tier 1 1a, and not know what to do.

I used to 4gate every game just to move up the ladder quickly. Then I realised it was BETTER to play for the 30 minute games, to help me know how to use everything, what counters what, and improving my general mechanics macroing off 4/5 bases.

In the lower leagues there is a lot of cheese. People do know basic things like which all in to do. FFEing every PvZ = 60% roach all-ins. You have to scout for that. I remember having a probe on the natural to block an expo, and he never came down to kill it - I wandered in to find him doing a 1 base roach nydus play that could have caused me serious damage. You HAVE to scout, every game. It has to be a habit that is as natural as building workers. The mineral harass etc, yes, that isn't necessary.

Also, please be specific about "always make workers." Because I have encountered players who will get 120 drones off 3 base because of this mantra. Remember, it is BAD to have more than 2 workers per mineral patch. 16 for minerals, 6 for gas, per base. Any more, and you are actually reducing income.

Anyway, that's it. It's not that what you're saying isn't true, it is - there are a lot of unnecessary things low level players do that they don't need to to win at that level, because they've seen a pro do it. But things like scouting and tech have to be as basic as anything else if they want to not get stuck in a rut in the middle of gold/plat.

On June 10 2012 10:33 Sbuiko wrote:
I agree with the general criticism that these hints do not form a way to successfully win in lower leagues. DT all-ins, weird banshee or drop plays and not scouting expansion timings can easily kill you in all leagues. The problem here is a discrepancy in the promised goal, and what the hints actually do: Following these hints would definitely improve my macro play. However, it will not allow me to win more games, or quickly climb the ladder. Instead I'll drop in wins for quite a time, then improve more quickly later on.

So basically the suggestions offered are a long term min-max training strategy to increase game-prowess. I guess that's a worthwhile goal for some people. But for me, single mindedly concentrating on macro would be no fun at all, and therefore I won't do it.