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Elisterre
Canada1 Post
I have 1 question, what can I do to try and increase my APM? I seem to be APM "capped" at about 50 when I am trying my hardest all game, and in worse games I go as low as 30 APM average. When I watch replays, my opponents rarely average below 70ish and a lot go 80+. It seems like I still have about a 50% winrate against my Platinum opponents, yet my APM is so much lower. Do you have any basic recommendations that would help me bring this number up? Thanks. | ||
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Allenansgar
United States31 Posts
I understand that the benchmarks are all recommendations not laws. Just wondering if there is any value for scouting naturals in like the high bronze / silver league and is there a benchmark to consider getting stealth detection? Filter put some benchmarks up for Terran players to shoot for, 50SCV 100 Food @ 10 minutes with a expansion started at 3:45ish. I have been practicing like mad to hit that number. It seems the high masters are putting together some great coaching threads. Thanks a lot! | ||
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roym899
Germany426 Posts
I've seen so many times how friend of mine who is in Silver, goes for Drop play and while doing that piles up tons of overmins... | ||
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sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On June 09 2012 17:45 Elisterre wrote: I really like this post, I am a Platinum Zerg. It looks like there are a lot of things I can start working on. I have 1 question, what can I do to try and increase my APM? I seem to be APM "capped" at about 50 when I am trying my hardest all game, and in worse games I go as low as 30 APM average. When I watch replays, my opponents rarely average below 70ish and a lot go 80+. It seems like I still have about a 50% winrate against my Platinum opponents, yet my APM is so much lower. Do you have any basic recommendations that would help me bring this number up? Thanks. Really don't worry about your APM. I'm a Platinum Zerg who feels like he's stuck in Plat too and my APM is on average (I stress average, not a freak peak or anything) 280-350APM/150-180EAPM. Further proving APM means just about nothing. | ||
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MagnuMizer
Denmark384 Posts
Analyzing progress like this can be very hard... its like noticing the change in your appearance overtime by looking in the mirror everyday for 2 years... like, I feel that I don't really play that differently as when i was in platinum league - I am now master, so there must have been something that changed LOL... but i think its cool you are able to give advice on different leagues.. can be quite hard to see the game from all those different perspectives! so good job on that.. and thanks for the tips! | ||
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MrLlama
United States454 Posts
On June 09 2012 17:14 Cracy wrote: As a silver level player I must say this is a single most useful thread I have seen in this forum ever and I read most of them  Despite the discussion which is welcomed, it shows something which I didn't figure out myself until recently (and not without a huge help of someone else, Hi Lennox  People tend to forget that you have to learn waking before you run and thank you for reminding us this. I agree it is very detrimental to try to do all the fancy things you see pros do. And you try... Back to basics... I'm glad it helped. It's funny because even in Masters League I find that when I start losing lots of games, it's because I miss one of the basics. Sure sometimes it's because I didn't do enough with my infestors or had a bad position in a fight or missed my bane bombs or w/e, but a lot of times it will be because I'm so focused on microing my drone that I get supply blocked at 28/28 and then when he goes for a fast 1 base all in I lose a game I could have easily won. On June 09 2012 17:45 Elisterre wrote: I really like this post, I am a Platinum Zerg. It looks like there are a lot of things I can start working on. I have 1 question, what can I do to try and increase my APM? I seem to be APM "capped" at about 50 when I am trying my hardest all game, and in worse games I go as low as 30 APM average. When I watch replays, my opponents rarely average below 70ish and a lot go 80+. It seems like I still have about a 50% winrate against my Platinum opponents, yet my APM is so much lower. Do you have any basic recommendations that would help me bring this number up? Thanks. Someone else kind of answered this and I think there are a couple of answers. 1. I have a friend who averages like 60APM and he is in Masters league. I have known him since BW and we always made fun of him because in all of our games we all hit above 150 easy and he never made it over 80. That being said, he is the same level as us so that definitely says something about efficiency and that mass APM is not everything 2. In starcraft 2 there generally is less need for apm due to how the game changed from BW, I still think you will want to be slightly above 50 and for sure above 30. What I'd really be curious is to how often do you play? A lot of the game is building muscle/mind memory in so that you will double click a hotkey, know exactly what to do, do it, and move on in a split second. I find a lot of players that don't play enough will double click a hotkey, take a second to think about the next move, do it, and then move on. If you can get rid of all that thinking time then you will increase your apm. A great way to just increase APM though is to play all of those custom games on battlenet that are aimed at it. There is this one game (name I forget) where you have to build your base all the while microing around a probe (which you can't give shift move commands). While it's more focused on allowing you to build while you focus on your army, I think it would still be good because it will give you less time to perform actions back at your base thus increasing apm and getting rid of that "think" time. On June 10 2012 00:26 Allenansgar wrote: I know the focus on the Bronze / Silver is pure macro, but on Filter's "Bronze to Masters" thread, there are a lot of bronze players QQing that they are getting cheesed and attacked with all-in stealth plays. I understand that the benchmarks are all recommendations not laws. Just wondering if there is any value for scouting naturals in like the high bronze / silver league and is there a benchmark to consider getting stealth detection? Filter put some benchmarks up for Terran players to shoot for, 50SCV 100 Food @ 10 minutes with a expansion started at 3:45ish. I have been practicing like mad to hit that number. It seems the high masters are putting together some great coaching threads. Thanks a lot! I still don't think there is much value to the scout because I have seen so many players run in with a scout and not even know what they're looking for. They get in, see 5 barracks on one base, and then they tech up to lair and start getting +1/+1 upgrades. Don't scout if you don't know what to look for, and at that level I don't even want you to worry about that. Stealth all-ins will be a little bit of trouble but I think as a terran player you have it best since you have scans. If you are honestly worried about them, just start saving up a scan once you reach 6:30. Then when you get hit with the cloaked units, you have a scan to use. Plus if you are on 2 bases you will probably get another scan pretty soon. For zergs I would recommend throwing down an evo chamber blind at around 6:15. The best dark templar rushes will hit just before 7:00 and the best cloak banshees probably hit around 7:30 (depends the BO). If they come into your base with cloak units, throw down a ton of spores as a zerg or use your scans wisely as a terran. For protoss, I think you should already have an observer up in your build order by then. I think you should either 3gate expand or 3gate robo expand, but either way you need to get that robo up and an observer out eventually and you'll be fine. On June 10 2012 00:51 MagnuMizer wrote: nice! excellent write-up.. I agree with everything platinum and onwards ( i've never myself been anything below platinum so dunno if that advice is correct, but it seems good so im gonna go ahead and give you the thumbs up on that one). Analyzing progress like this can be very hard... its like noticing the change in your appearance overtime by looking in the mirror everyday for 2 years... like, I feel that I don't really play that differently as when i was in platinum league - I am now master, so there must have been something that changed LOL... but i think its cool you are able to give advice on different leagues.. can be quite hard to see the game from all those different perspectives! so good job on that.. and thanks for the tips! It's definitely hard to analyze progress. Which is why the more attention you pay to your macro details the better you will be and see yourself. For example, if I watch a game where I lost vs a 2base blink stalker all in, and then a game where I won it, it will still be hard for me to see the difference unless I look at details. All of the sudden I have the tabs open in instant replay and I note that in the game I lost I had been supply blocked twice, was 7 drones short, and had speed 30 seconds later. If you look in the mirror everyday you won't really notice yourself change, but if compare the overall pictures from them apart you will see all the little details that did change and why you look different. Match by match you are not going to suddenly jump a league, but if you can work it out so you get supply blocked 1 less time, or inject 1 more time, you will start to improve. | ||
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dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
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FayZe
United States27 Posts
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MrLlama
United States454 Posts
On June 10 2012 03:43 dUTtrOACh wrote: I don't know, but my strategy of always playing faster than what feels comfortable and scouting my ass off works just fine for me in high Platinum / lower Diamond. I don't think I lack "experience" to react to my constant information and I definitely feel like using mutas and other micro intensive units since the early days in bronze league have made my hotkeys and unit control something of a non-issue. I'd say what kills me most of the time is my eagerness to kill my opponent, which is something I've been working on, only it's hard for me to not be hurting them all game and scouting all the time to make the right units when I need them. I find sitting around and macroing with limited information to be a very poor way of playing in Platinum, and I almost feel as if the OP is out of touch with Platinum league skill level at the moment. To say you need nothing more than a basic scout and to check for an expansion to detect an all-in is almost advice I would give to silver or gold league players, since most Platinum players should know this by then. If anything, it's more important to scout much more and increase your understanding of what your opponents are doing and what kind of timings they can come at you with. To mostly ignore your opponent's build and focus on yourself is pretty much the way to lose in Platinum league at this point. It's not as terrible as you may think. I think it's good to definitely develop your mechanics and unit micro and such, but in terms of utilizing your APM for the best it can be, it's better to get down your macro and, in my opinion, in the order of the steps I provided. I don't think I'm out of touch with platinum considering I coach a lot of platinum players. I watch their games, and 95% of the time they lose is because they are missing their macro benchmarks, not because they didn't have a scout on their opponents base when he went for an 8 gate all in. I don't scout the 8 gate all in plenty of times yet I hold it because I have 30 more units to defend with than the platinum player. First work on yourself, then work on scouting your opponent. I feel this is the best way to improve. On June 10 2012 04:01 FayZe wrote: I disagree with the bronze/silver part. I say try to actually scout, this is just for cheese and knowing the enemy's position. You literally need to scout since lower leagues are just unpredicatable, 4gates and 7-8min Banshee rushes could come from anywhere. I think filterSC does a great job showcasing that this is not the case at all. The point is, at those levels the other players aren't going to be coming out with these perfect rushes or timing pushes that you couldn't hold with simply good macro. I've played some games at that level and held 4 gates with only queens while droning non-stop behind it. the point is, they don't hit as hard there and you should be fine assuming you are taking care of everything else correctly. | ||
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Lightsider23
Serbia16 Posts
I agree with most thing you wrote and it will surely help lower league players to increse their level by a lot. Great read ! | ||
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FayZe
United States27 Posts
On June 10 2012 04:14 MrLlama wrote: I think filterSC does a great job showcasing that this is not the case at all. The point is, at those levels the other players aren't going to be coming out with these perfect rushes or timing pushes that you couldn't hold with simply good macro. I've played some games at that level and held 4 gates with only queens while droning non-stop behind it. the point is, they don't hit as hard there and you should be fine assuming you are taking care of everything else correctly. I really don't know the last time you've played a high bronze or silver player, but they actually know what they're doing and aren't as mentally incapacitated as you may think they are. Sure, mid to late game macro isn't what you call top notch but they have build orders down. Especially for simple 4gates, I doubt you held it with queens while droning behind it. That's a terrible exaggeration when they can hit the benchmarks at 5:50 keep warping waves of zealots to counter defensive zerglings and stalkers for your queens. Bronze and Silver maybe lower leagues but they're nowhere near retarded to abstain from basic things like scouting. All in all, extremely nice guide with a few over-exaggerations into lower league play. | ||
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Kraidio
China133 Posts
Do not get any unit for harrass, just a unit to add to your army for more damage/tankability/versatility. I think by the time you are Terran and at Gold, you need to be harassing. Against equally macro-managing Protoss and Zerg opponents, ramming big pushes into your opponents over and over again is very likely to lose you the game. | ||
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dUTtrOACh
Canada2339 Posts
On June 10 2012 04:14 MrLlama wrote: I think it's good to definitely develop your mechanics and unit micro and such, but in terms of utilizing your APM for the best it can be, it's better to get down your macro and, in my opinion, in the order of the steps I provided. I don't think I'm out of touch with platinum considering I coach a lot of platinum players. I watch their games, and 95% of the time they lose is because they are missing their macro benchmarks, not because they didn't have a scout on their opponents base when he went for an 8 gate all in. I don't scout the 8 gate all in plenty of times yet I hold it because I have 30 more units to defend with than the platinum player. First work on yourself, then work on scouting your opponent. I feel this is the best way to improve. I think filterSC does a great job showcasing that this is not the case at all. The point is, at those levels the other players aren't going to be coming out with these perfect rushes or timing pushes that you couldn't hold with simply good macro. I've played some games at that level and held 4 gates with only queens while droning non-stop behind it. the point is, they don't hit as hard there and you should be fine assuming you are taking care of everything else correctly. I guess I'm just overestimating Platinum league. I do know a few people who suffer from not making enough stuff in Platinum. They may indeed be the majority. There are some of them who sit there and make a bunch of shit, but don't realize they're making completely the wrong shit, and also don't realize that they're infinitely behind and about to die, despite having survived early attacks. Most of the time I blame this on their complacency and complete lack of scouting past the 6 min. mark. | ||
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MrLlama
United States454 Posts
On June 10 2012 04:52 FayZe wrote: I really don't know the last time you've played a high bronze or silver player, but they actually know what they're doing and aren't as mentally incapacitated as you may think they are. Sure, mid to late game macro isn't what you call top notch but they have build orders down. Especially for simple 4gates, I doubt you held it with queens while droning behind it. That's a terrible exaggeration when they can hit the benchmarks at 5:50 keep warping waves of zealots to counter defensive zerglings and stalkers for your queens. Bronze and Silver maybe lower leagues but they're nowhere near retarded to abstain from basic things like scouting. All in all, extremely nice guide with a few over-exaggerations into lower league play. I was not exaggerating when saying I have held 4 gates with only queens and drones. Here is generally how it goes. I drone hard, don't take gas, I don't get supply blocked or anything. I make 5-6 queens, get an evo at 5:00 in case of dts, and throw up 2-3 spines because I can afford it (since I have so many drones and so much money). Then I just drone, hold them off, transfuse, pull drones when needed, and that's it. Of course my micro is much greater than that of a bronze-silver player but they are using units to help hold while I'm just straight droning so that's where they can slack on the micro. On June 10 2012 05:06 Kraidio wrote: I think by the time you are Terran and at Gold, you need to be harassing. Against equally macro-managing Protoss and Zerg opponents, ramming big pushes into your opponents over and over again is very likely to lose you the game. I think you believe players macro better than they do in gold and can continue this while harassing. You are 100% correct in saying "Against equally macro-managing Protoss and Zerg opponents, ramming big pushes into your opponents over and over again is very likely to lose you the game." But the whole point of this is that you are going to put yourself ABOVE them in macro (mostly because you work on it and they focus on trying to harass and do silly little things). Your post makes it sound like once you hit gold you have perfect macro, which isn't the case. You don't even have perfect macro in masters, but it's a heck of a lot better than in gold (and so is your opponents) so then you have to start thinking about what else to add on top of it. | ||
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snively
United States1159 Posts
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Chutoro
New Zealand95 Posts
http://drop.sc/195021 This was one of my best macro performances ever in terms of injects and keeping my minerals low, with a spending quotient number of Masters+ (admittedly not a fair statistic, since that's averaged across all games and in this one I was left alone to macro). I was maxed at 14 minutes and just threw my army at the opponent without worrying about where I engaged. I got destroyed by a Gold player because of bad engagements. I think this illustrates your point about engagements being important in Platinum (arguably Gold if my opponent is any guide). | ||
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Larkin
United Kingdom7161 Posts
If players don't start using everything, they will come to a situation like your friend - they will find a player who can hold their mass tier 1 1a, and not know what to do. I used to 4gate every game just to move up the ladder quickly. Then I realised it was BETTER to play for the 30 minute games, to help me know how to use everything, what counters what, and improving my general mechanics macroing off 4/5 bases. In the lower leagues there is a lot of cheese. People do know basic things like which all in to do. FFEing every PvZ = 60% roach all-ins. You have to scout for that. I remember having a probe on the natural to block an expo, and he never came down to kill it - I wandered in to find him doing a 1 base roach nydus play that could have caused me serious damage. You HAVE to scout, every game. It has to be a habit that is as natural as building workers. The mineral harass etc, yes, that isn't necessary. Also, please be specific about "always make workers." Because I have encountered players who will get 120 drones off 3 base because of this mantra. Remember, it is BAD to have more than 2 workers per mineral patch. 16 for minerals, 6 for gas, per base. Any more, and you are actually reducing income. Anyway, that's it. It's not that what you're saying isn't true, it is - there are a lot of unnecessary things low level players do that they don't need to to win at that level, because they've seen a pro do it. But things like scouting and tech have to be as basic as anything else if they want to not get stuck in a rut in the middle of gold/plat. | ||
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Sbuiko
Switzerland56 Posts
So basically the suggestions offered are a long term min-max training strategy to increase game-prowess. I guess that's a worthwhile goal for some people. But for me, single mindedly concentrating on macro would be no fun at all, and therefore I won't do it. | ||
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MrLlama
United States454 Posts
On June 10 2012 09:45 Chutoro wrote: Here is a classic example of why macro alone isn't enough to win games in Platinum: http://drop.sc/195021 This was one of my best macro performances ever in terms of injects and keeping my minerals low, with a spending quotient number of Masters+ (admittedly not a fair statistic, since that's averaged across all games and in this one I was left alone to macro). I was maxed at 14 minutes and just threw my army at the opponent without worrying about where I engaged. I got destroyed by a Gold player because of bad engagements. I think this illustrates your point about engagements being important in Platinum (arguably Gold if my opponent is any guide). Minor places where the macro slipped but overall you did decently well with it. Here were just a couple observations but don't take these too harshly, like I said it was pretty good. 1. Supply blocked at 36 2. 5:55 - You start worrying about moving your overlord around outside the front of his base. You also just occuppied yourself with pulling off/putting drones on once again and you completely missed a full inject cycle already on your natural queen 3. 900 minerals at 8:00. You've been floating over 600 for a bit now and have had 11 larvae to spend. 4. No queen at the 3rd for a bit. That being said, ZvZ is a whole different ballgame when it comes to macro. Zerg in general is a little more difficult because you CAN'T make workers the whole game since you have to use larvae for units and workers. This is where it can difficult and while you think you are playing perfectly with master level macro, you aren't and it's hard to judge. You did a good job getting the drone lead early on, then you made a roach warren followed by THIRTY SEVEN ROACHES. Big attack after making them? nope, you just went back to droning. I know you want to feel safe but having 37 roaches when your opponent has 12 means that you either have to attack or you will fall back behind/even. Look to drone when you can and make units only when necessary (in zvz it's okay to send a scout ling every now and then to check his army size out. Don't pay too much attention and it will die fast, just send it over and glance quickly). Another thing I'd like to note about my plat notes: "-I think platinum is the best place to start worrying about unit control. Anything below this league should focus on the production of units and workers but once you get those skills down you can start looking at your army." I think this is true and that's what failed you in this game, which is exactly a goal that I put in plat league for players to work on and exactly what you said about it proving the point. You maxed, charged over to his base, and then got all of your units caught on the up ramp. Something that you have to learn as a plat player with unit control is the "move forward stutter" that zerg needs to do. Notice how bad the range is for roaches and how little of them were actually able to attack. You saw that your army size was larger so what do you do? You do an attack, then move units up next to his army (right next to it) and let them attack again. This will let it be all of your units vs all of his units instead of 1/4 your units vs all of his units. This was a positioning loss game for the most part. You could also look to attack somewhere else instead of up a ramp towards his army, but even so you could have pushed forward with your units and made that work. "-I'd say platinum league should be the first time that you really touch infestors and mutalisks. They are both extremely fragile and time consuming so you want to make sure you are doing everything right elsewhere before you start using these units." You didn't touch any infestor or muta tech. I think it would've been helpful to get once you maxed out and as you were pushing/slightly before so you could remax with some. "-Think about positioning now for engagements. If you can get a swarm on an army from multiple sides you will do MUCH more damage." Once again I mention positioning would be huge in this league and you are exactly right that you needed a little more than macro here. If you did everything you did that game, and then came in with half your units for a flank in that battle, you win easy every time. On June 10 2012 10:33 Larkin wrote: I have to disagree with a lot of what you have said. Players have to get basics down, correct. But this does not mean "don't scout." This does not mean "don't get sentries." This does not mean "just get a tier1 army and 1a." If players don't start using everything, they will come to a situation like your friend - they will find a player who can hold their mass tier 1 1a, and not know what to do. I used to 4gate every game just to move up the ladder quickly. Then I realised it was BETTER to play for the 30 minute games, to help me know how to use everything, what counters what, and improving my general mechanics macroing off 4/5 bases. In the lower leagues there is a lot of cheese. People do know basic things like which all in to do. FFEing every PvZ = 60% roach all-ins. You have to scout for that. I remember having a probe on the natural to block an expo, and he never came down to kill it - I wandered in to find him doing a 1 base roach nydus play that could have caused me serious damage. You HAVE to scout, every game. It has to be a habit that is as natural as building workers. The mineral harass etc, yes, that isn't necessary. Also, please be specific about "always make workers." Because I have encountered players who will get 120 drones off 3 base because of this mantra. Remember, it is BAD to have more than 2 workers per mineral patch. 16 for minerals, 6 for gas, per base. Any more, and you are actually reducing income. Anyway, that's it. It's not that what you're saying isn't true, it is - there are a lot of unnecessary things low level players do that they don't need to to win at that level, because they've seen a pro do it. But things like scouting and tech have to be as basic as anything else if they want to not get stuck in a rut in the middle of gold/plat. I appreciate the feedback and I understand what you're trying to say. The point that I'm trying to make though is that when my friend who makes banshees finally gets around people who can hold banshees, he is lacking in his macro and now before he can start to win games really he is going to have to go back and learn all of that. The amount of stuff that he is going to have to learn/practice is enormous. The player who has great macro and masses up a max army then 1as and loses has a lot less to work on. In the game just above we see how simple unit positioning was the difference between crushing his opponent and losing. It's a lot easier if you can get that max army and be ahead in macro then just fix your unit engagement, than to be behind in macro and have good unit control. As for you "always make workers" statement yes of course having 120 drones is too much, but it's easier to cutback on making workers than it is to never be making them and have to start getting them. The best way to learn in my opinion as a zerg player is to overdrone, lose to a push, then try again and drone a little bit less. Eventually you reach the optimal point of droning where you can still hold and thus you find that sweet spot (I'd recommend getting your friend to do the same push over and over). Think of that as someone saying "Always drink lots of water." Yes, there is always the extreme of too much water being bad for you, but the idea of "drink water" is something that should stick and then you can get a feel for when you are getting full on water and stop then. On June 10 2012 10:33 Sbuiko wrote: I agree with the general criticism that these hints do not form a way to successfully win in lower leagues. DT all-ins, weird banshee or drop plays and not scouting expansion timings can easily kill you in all leagues. The problem here is a discrepancy in the promised goal, and what the hints actually do: Following these hints would definitely improve my macro play. However, it will not allow me to win more games, or quickly climb the ladder. Instead I'll drop in wins for quite a time, then improve more quickly later on. So basically the suggestions offered are a long term min-max training strategy to increase game-prowess. I guess that's a worthwhile goal for some people. But for me, single mindedly concentrating on macro would be no fun at all, and therefore I won't do it. " Following these hints would definitely improve my macro play. However, it will not allow me to win more games, or quickly climb the ladder." I think this is where you're mistaken. Even for me today the second that I remember to macro properly and start improving my droning/no supply blocks, I find I win many more games. There is no immediate drop for when you start to macro, in fact there is actually more of an immediate improvement because all of the sudden you find yourself with so many more resources and so many more units that it becomes a lot easier to fight and hold cheeses. If a guy does banshee play against you and you have 28 workers and a decent amount of fighting units, let's say he kills 8 workers before you fend him off. Now that same guy comes over vs me and I have 48 workers and he kills 16 workers before I fend him off (yikes!) In the end I have 32 workers and you have 20 workers, even though I lost twice as many as you. This allows me to quickly build up either more drones or get an army >= your army in which case I'm ahead either way. I think zerg is the toughest to try and explain because of the dynamic of how building units vs workers works for the race so if anybody is discussing zerg just know that you may have a little bit different issues. That being said, I am a zerg player so I tried my best to have my advice/benchmarks be able to hit all 3 races effectively and as best as I could. | ||
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SEA KarMa
Australia452 Posts
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